Airline Pilot Forums

I just have a quick question. I graduated college with a B.S. in engineering in May and now I am in graduate school pursuing a M.S. in engineering. I am obsessed with flying, though. It is my true passion. Not that I hate engineering, but I love flying. Even after reading all the horror stories on these forums, I still want to give it a try. I know that now I have a degree that is non-aviation to fall back on if things go south with aviation. I know it is one of those things that if I never try I will wish I had. By the way, I have 0 hours. No ppl or anything. I have flown before and loved it. Anyway, my question is I am about 98% sure I'm going to pursue this, but do I need to start now (i.e. quit grad school) or wait until I get my M.S. and then do it? Oh yeah, the M.S. is costing me about $15000 a semester and I have 2 semesters left (a 3 semester program). I am 23 years old and will be 24 when I finish if I stick it out. Thanks in advance!

I'll assume the military path is not your choice.
So...
I would finish out the MS and start working in the engineering field. You don't want to lose the academic momentum you have now and it will obviously help you out in your engineering job search (as well as help out in the salary dept).
Then, I would start my flight training at a local flight school. Pick a school with a good rep. and one which can carry you from PVT to COM/CFI. You can pay as you go while flight training and thus keep yourself out of any real debt (can't emphasize this point enough).

Arrange with the school, when you start your training, to become a part-time CFI once that rating is attained. Have at least a gentleman's agreement on it.

Once you start working as a CFI you can build your hours while using your "day job" to pay the bills and maintain a decent lifestyle.

Once you have a few hundred hours under your belt, you can then reeval. your career options.

So:
1) Finish grad school
2) Get a good paying engineering job
3) Begin your flight training locally
4) Pay-as-you-go (no major amount upfront - a lot has happened over the years)
5) Get your CFI and start instructing part-time
6) Once all that smoke clears figure out what you'd rather do once you reach ~1000 hours or so.

Hope this helps...

How do you know it's your passion, you haven't tried yet? Get some hours, read about it, find out if you have unknown medical issues, then think real hard about it.

GF

Listen to Gopats. Finish school, find a decent paying job, get debt free and use your good engineering job to pay for flight training in your spare time. In a few years when you're in a position to make the move to flying for hire, you'll realize that $24/hour may not enough to fuel that "passion". Quite the opposite you'll probably find yourself with a decent job that allows you to just buy your own airplane.

Thanks for the advice, Go Pats. It is a really tough decision right now. I agree that a Master's is a good thing and will probably end up staying on and getting it. One question though, will an advanced degree make you more desirable to an airline? I know the majority of the weight is placed on hours and ratings, but what about advanced degrees?
Are they that important in the aviation world?


Galaxy Flyer, you are 100% right, I don't know. But I know that I love flying, love being in the airports and watching the planes, and since I was about 7 years old, have dreamed of flying airplanes. Now, I got talked out of being a commercial pilot in high school (economy sucked, no hiring) for basically the same reasons everyone says to stay away now. So, I went and got my B.S. all the while with flying for a career in the back of my mind. Somehow, I let some professors talk me into grad school and here I am now wishing I was flying. Those reasons lead me to think that aviation may be my calling. I definitely have and will put a lot of thought into the decisions facing me.

Also, I know I hear horror stories of F/Os never getting upgraded and being stuck at a regional. I understand that starting pay is awful. But is it really like hitting the jackpot getting an upgrade to the captain's chair? I am just curious and I know that all of you know a lot more about it than me. I am under the impression, and this is just my assumptions, that right now, F/Os are getting upgraded in about 5 to 6 years. Can you shed a little light on what its really like? I am just trying to know exactly what I am getting into before I make any major decisions. Thanks!

An M.S. will not get you a major airline job. It certainly won't hurt you during the interview but, as you said, experience, a clean record and a good attitude will be way more important.

Thanks for the advice, Go Pats. It is a really tough decision right now. I agree that a Master's is a good thing and will probably end up staying on and getting it. One question though, will an advanced degree make you more desirable to an airline? I know the majority of the weight is placed on hours and ratings, but what about advanced degrees?
Are they that important in the aviation world?

Major airlines do ask, and statistically it will improve your odds.

However...the statistics may over-state the benefit. The military is big on advanced education, and even a first-term military pilot will likely have a masters when her gets out and retired officer is almost certain to have one or more...and the airlines like to hire military pilots. But that's because of their military piloting skills, not because of their masters degrees.

I would consider a masters as a tie-breaker between two candidates who are otherwise equally qualified, but it will not replace quality flight experience.


Galaxy Flyer, you are 100% right, I don't know. But I know that I love flying, love being in the airports and watching the planes, and since I was about 7 years old, have dreamed of flying airplanes. Now, I got talked out of being a commercial pilot in high school (economy sucked, no hiring) for basically the same reasons everyone says to stay away now. So, I went and got my B.S. all the while with flying for a career in the back of my mind. Somehow, I let some professors talk me into grad school and here I am now wishing I was flying. Those reasons lead me to think that aviation may be my calling.

Every single pilot (or person who tried to become a pilot) felt that way at one point. It usually wears off after your first year at a regional.



Also, I know I hear horror stories of F/Os never getting upgraded and being stuck at a regional. I understand that starting pay is awful. But is it really like hitting the jackpot getting an upgrade to the captain's chair?

At a regional? No, it's better pay than a contract janitor but not as good as a union janitor (it slowly gets better over many years...a 15 year regional CA probably makes almost as much a new-hire MS EE).

At a passenger major? No, but it's a living.

At FDX or UPS? Yes.


I am just curious and I know that all of you know a lot more about it than me. I am under the impression, and this is just my assumptions, that right now, F/Os are getting upgraded in about 5 to 6 years. Can you shed a little light on what its really like? I am just trying to know exactly what I am getting into before I make any major decisions. Thanks!

That's about right, but that number is TOTALLY, ABSOLUTELY, 100% MEANINGLESS to you.

Your time to upgrade will depend on demographics, industry, and economic conditions in the future...and different airlines can have different numbers (I think COMAIR will have junior CA's who were hired around 1992).

Upgrades at regionals has varied between zero (hiring captains off the street) to 10+ years. The historical average is probably 4-6 years but that will be totally irrelevant if YOU happen to get stuck for ten. There's no cure for a bad seniority situation...

First, thanks rickair for the help.







Every single pilot (or person who tried to become a pilot) felt that way at one point. It usually wears off after your first year at a regional.


I guess it is like getting a new car or something: when you first get it you drive it all the time, then after the "new" wears off you aren't as interested.

The thing that sucks about flying is that you will never know until you try. And trying is big bucks. And it is something I think about doing all the time. So I imagine in the future I will have to try it and see how it goes. Just don't think I'll ever be completely satisfied with myself if I don't try it out. At least on the ppl level for a while, then see where the path may lead me.....

First, thanks rickair for the help.






I guess it is like getting a new car or something: when you first get it you drive it all the time, then after the "new" wears off you aren't as interested.

The thing that sucks about flying is that you will never know until you try. And trying is big bucks. And it is something I think about doing all the time. So I imagine in the future I will have to try it and see how it goes. Just don't think I'll ever be completely satisfied with myself if I don't try it out. At least on the ppl level for a while, then see where the path may lead me.....


You can try it...a PPL and an instrument rating are reasonably affordable. Get a rating or two, fly around for fun, and see how you like it. Then you can ponder the career question.

I was a career changer myself. Went from engineering to flying. How did I know? I got my private license and flew lots of $100 hamburger trips. Then after getting stuck somewhere because of fog, I decided to pursue the instrument rating. In my search, a light bulb was lit and I decided to make a career out of it, because I loved it so much.

So go give it a shot! Get your private first and figure out if you love it enough to make it career. Have fun and good luck!

Thanks Dpilot. I am actually going up for a discovery flight tomorrow.

You're welcome! Hope you had a nice discovery flight. Let us know how it goes.

You're welcome! Hope you had a nice discovery flight. Let us know how it goes.

Well, due to the weather I am not getting to go up until the weekend.

I just have a quick question. I graduated college with a B.S. in engineering in May and now I am in graduate school pursuing a M.S. in engineering. I am obsessed with flying, though. It is my true passion. Not that I hate engineering, but I love flying. Even after reading all the horror stories on these forums, I still want to give it a try. I know that now I have a degree that is non-aviation to fall back on if things go south with aviation. I know it is one of those things that if I never try I will wish I had. By the way, I have 0 hours. No ppl or anything. I have flown before and loved it. Anyway, my question is I am about 98% sure I'm going to pursue this, but do I need to start now (i.e. quit grad school) or wait until I get my M.S. and then do it? Oh yeah, the M.S. is costing me about $15000 a semester and I have 2 semesters left (a 3 semester program). I am 23 years old and will be 24 when I finish if I stick it out. Thanks in advance!

The Truth About the Profession - Home (http://www.thetruthabouttheprofession.weebly.com)

Hope that helps.

The Truth About the Profession - Home (http://www.thetruthabouttheprofession.weebly.com)

Hope that helps.

Thanks. I actually have read it multiple times and, call me foolish, but I still want to try it.

The fact that you even mentioned how much your degree was costing you per semester tells me you don't have enough cash to spend on starting a new career as a pilot. Flying for fun, sure. But not as a career.

DO NOT, DO NOT go into debt to finance your "passion". If (and a big IF at that) you could even find a bank today to finance the $60k-75k to get your private, commercial, CFII, and multi ratings just to start instructing. You're looking at several years scraping by just to get the 1500 hours you will probably need due to impending legislation to get hired on at a regional.

Assuming best case you could do this in 3 years which would be very fast, you're looking at making $20k-30k per year as a first officer for another 3-4 years before you upgrade to captain. Call it another 2 years to get the 1000 PIC turbine you need to meet the MINIMUMS for a major. Sure there will be thousands hired in the next 10 years but they all will be hired ahead of you so don't count on a quick upgrade at a major.

Notice that nowhere did I even address paying off the debt you'd incure to get hired in the first place and 8-10 years is a long time to scrape by on $30k. Where will your buddies from grad school be by then?

Sorry if that doesn't paint a rosy picture for you but that is the reality you're looking at. My advice, finish your degree, continue to have fun flying (pay as you go) and get a good job that will probably allow you to buy your own plane in 10 years or so (pay cash).

Or, marry rich and do it the other way!

Stitches, I don't plan on going into debt to get any of it. I am in no rush and plan on just paying as I go. I couldn't agree with you more about that. As far as the low pay, I understand that its gonna suck in the beginning. Besides, if things start looking bad for me in the aviation industry, I can always go back to being a mechanical engineer. I'm already licensed to do that. I know it would be a lot of money gone, but there's only one way to find out and that is to give it a shot. At least that's my perspective on it.

Thanks. I actually have read it multiple times and, call me foolish, but I still want to try it.

You're not foolish if it is something that you really want to do and you go in eyes wide open. Good luck.

You're welcome! Hope you had a nice discovery flight. Let us know how it goes.

Well, finally got to go up today. I had a big time and really enjoyed it. I've got a lot of deciding to do, but it looks like I will probably go through with it. You only live once.

Yup, and you only die once too, so be sure you go to a good school for flight instruction. Have you considered finding an Air Force Reserve or Air National Guard unit to fly for? They PAY YOU to go through pilot training, and they LOVE engineers!

I have been with a legacy carrier for 25 years and a captain for 15. I've had it pretty good compared to most. My daughter graduated valedictorian of her high school class and had a private pilot license. She told me she wanted to be an airline pilot. I said absolutely not! Luckily my other two took note of how crappy my job has gotten and didn't even consider it. One of those has his private license too.

This career looks good to a lot of people. They haven't been here and lived the life of 100 nights per year in a hotel. Missing every important family event you could possibly imagine, over and over. Continually seeing your pay go down and down. Benefits being taken away from you. Countless other unacceptable things.

Sorry to be blunt, but I wouldn't recommend this career to anyone. If you are an engineer, stick with that and enjoy flying on the side.

You're welcome to pm me for more info, but I think you get the picture.

Good luck.

Yup, and you only die once too, so be sure you go to a good school for flight instruction. Have you considered finding an Air Force Reserve or Air National Guard unit to fly for? They PAY YOU to go through pilot training, and they LOVE engineers!

I haven't really considered that. Do you know off hand what the time commitment to them is? I just don't really want to be tied down to a 10 year contract or something.

That's the Beauty of the Air Guard/Reserves. You are NOT tied down. You will owe them (current commitment is 10 years I think) of PART TIME flying, and they don't move you all around the country, you stay in your state, unless you want to transfer to another unit.

During those 10 years, you will build time and then try to get a job with the Majors or Regionals, and be able to supplement your low starting income with your part time Guard/Reserve income. You will also be eligable for VA loans for your new house and other benefits.

If another war kicks off, your unit may be activated and if so, you will have to serve on Active Duty for a while, but any airline you are flying for must hold your spot for you to come back to.

When I was just out of college and looking for an airline job, there was a recession on, (1981) and none of the Majors were hiring. A guy I flew with (Part 135) told me about the Air Guard program, the best kept secret in Aviation.

I checked it out and eventually was selected for Pilot Training (even though I already had my ATP). It took a couple years of full time training, but as soon as I got home the Majors started hiring and I got on. It was a great program, you should look into it, and it's a good to have in your back pocket if/when your Major goes belly up or if you get furlouged.

Look into it: http://www.ang.af.mil/

Also, go read the posts on the "Military" forum up above where you click to come on this forum, then go down to the "ANG Options" thread; http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/military/63858-ang-options.html lots of good ANG info there.

My advice would be to "Fly Navy", active duty. You've clearly shown your ability to think about and complete long term commitments by completing a 4 year undergrad and progressing toward a MS. People are always saying they are afraid to commit to a commitment. Then they get hired by a company( non-flying), or an airline, or they start dating a girl; then they look in the rear view mirror and 17 years have gone by and they are in the same job and with the same girl they were afraid of committing to to begin with. But it's ok. In fact, the Navy's been amazing. Before you know it, the opportunities, the adventures, the set backs, the challenges, the deployments, the friendships, the connections, the etc, etc have molded you into the man/father/leader/pilot you can't even imagine possible today.
Join the Navy, become a pilot, live the dream/adventure that everyone wants to do but is afraid to commit to, become a Navy test pilot (you should be well qualified by then with you're education and Naval Aviation experience), see the world, work with highly educated/motivated people, be open minded about challenging assignments, be open minded and jump on every opportunity presented, let the Navy pay for you MBA, take a chance and look outside of your cozy little box.
Keep working on your MS while you are applying for the Navy as it can be a lengthy process. Maybe you won't even get selected, maybe you will be selected but you'll decide to turn it down because you're unwilling to commit.
It cost you nothing to seriously look into this amazing opportunity. I'm clearly Navy-biased, but all the services offer great opportunities and similar challenges. A ten year commitment that pays you well, has job security, can enhance your resume in unimaginable ways, while you pursue your dream of flying is a pretty good deal during these uncertain times.
I hope for everyones sake that the airline industry turns around soon, but we've been saying that for ten years now. 10 YEARS? How's that for a commitment.