Airline Pilot Forums

I've searched and can't find an answer that pertains specifically and uniquely to UPT checkride busts.

I know you should be honest; I'm not trying to be deceitful.

As far as I can tell, these don't count as "checkrides" in the spirit of the question, "have you ever failed a Flight Check-ride, Proficiency Check, Flight Evaluation, or Upgrade attempt (Aircraft or Simulator)?"

Reasoning: UPT checkrides are not in pursuit of a rating or qualification (except the last one, which IS a Form 8 Instrument check). A majority of the IPs administering checkrides to UPT students are not evaluator pilots. I was a FAIP/check pilot but not a SEFE, and I don't remember any of the other check pilots being SEFEs. Therefore we weren't even qualified to give anyone a true (Form 8) checkride.

SWA specifically says, " Do not include Stage Checks if part of a Formal Course of Training or Military Flight Training phase checks leading to your initial Pilot Qualification."

FDX doesn't have this caveat.

My concern for FDX is if I answer "yes" to the question, I might be passed over in the pile of thousands of applications without anyone reading the explanation about the rides I busted. I'm also concerned if I answer "no" and it comes up at an interview I'd be dismissed for being dishonest.

For the SWA profile I checked "no." For the FDX I checked "yes."

I was just wondering if I should change my answer on the FDX profile.

I can't speak for SWA, but you are correct about FedEx. I checked yes on the application, similar situation to yours, and they did ask about it in the interview. I just gave a plain English explanation, and described how I learned from it, and that it was an isolated event. The interviewers got the point, and quickly moved on to the next question.

When in doubt, BE HONEST!!

To answer your question, I would NOT change your answer at FedEx.

I never got a form 8 out of UPT. I did get a big piece of bluish paper that said "Pilot" and some shiny wings though.

The form 8s started at Altus...

edit to add: I wonder what ever happened to my UPT gradebook anyway? So I busted my first try at my Nav check... Does UPS, FEDex or Delta even care?

I wonder what ever happened to my UPT gradebook anyway? So I busted my first try at my Nav check... Does UPS, FEDex or Delta even care?

Shack!

HrkDrivr - you said you were a FAIP but yet don't sound like one. No one ever got a Form 8 out of UPT and you know as far as the records go you can write your own legend.

Only a form 8 check matters, UPT stage checks are nothing when it comes to the question above. Stage checks would be no different then IFF proficiency rides at the end of each block of training (F-4, OB-4, etc). Would you say anything about busting one of those in an interview? You'd be stupid to even think it, how does an interviwer have an need?

Shack!

HrkDrivr - you said you were a FAIP but yet don't sound like one. No one ever got a Form 8 out of UPT and you know as far as the records go you can write your own legend.

Usually I take it as a compliment when someone says I don't seem/sound like I was a FAIP, so I'll just take this as one too. :rolleyes: But I can assure you I spent my time in purgatory. Looking back, it was a pretty cool job after all.

As for no one ever having gotten a Form 8 out of pilot training, you're wrong. "Back in the day" when I graduated, the last check ride in T-38s was a NAV/INST "check" and we got a Form 8, I think it was marked "Instrument." Anyway, that's the way we got instrument-rated prior to moving on.

Hrk -

I understand that the fear here is being passed over by the computer/HR before even getting a look. This should certainly be a concern of anyone interested in an airline job since interviews are hard enough to come by in this hiring environment.

As for the question whether a training flight in the military counts when they are requesting checkride failures; I think that the semantics can be confusing to say the least if the airline itself isn't very clear (SWA seems to be very clear).

I didn't fill out any airline apps, but in my last interview the question was asked whether I had any checkride failures and I admitted that I was given a "second chance to accel" during my first tour for my Section Lead. When I told them the story, they interview panel and I had quite the laugh about the whole situation and the head of the panel ended by saying "that isn't exactly what we were asking, but that it a great story!"

I think that the intent of this question is really looking for certain trends.
Good luck in the future.

USMCFLYR

Usually I take it as a compliment when someone says I don't seem/sound like I was a FAIP, so I'll just take this as one too. :rolleyes: But I can assure you I spent my time in purgatory. Looking back, it was a pretty cool job after all.

As for no one ever having gotten a Form 8 out of pilot training, you're wrong. "Back in the day" when I graduated, the last check ride in T-38s was a NAV/INST "check" and we got a Form 8, I think it was marked "Instrument." Anyway, that's the way we got instrument-rated prior to moving on.

Damn Skippy!!! 87-03 grad from UPT here and I can ABSOLUTELY tell you that "back in the day" when you graduated UPT you got your first FORM 8. Mine, was and still is in my Military Flight Records folder. In those days you took 3 checks rides in T-37s and 3 in T-38s...ONLY the Inst/Nav Check carried over to your permanent Flight Records along with your hours.

Damn Skippy!!! 87-03 grad from UPT here and I can ABSOLUTELY tell you that "back in the day" when you graduated UPT you got your first FORM 8. Mine, was and still is in my Military Flight Records folder. In those days you took 3 checks rides in T-37s and 3 in T-38s...ONLY the Inst/Nav Check carried over to your permanent Flight Records along with your hours.

Never question a FAIP!:p

Never question a FAIP!:pEspecially if it involves "queeep!" or trivia! ;)

Damn Skippy!!! 87-03 grad from UPT here and I can ABSOLUTELY tell you that "back in the day" when you graduated UPT you got your first FORM 8. Mine, was and still is in my Military Flight Records folder. In those days you took 3 checks rides in T-37s and 3 in T-38s...ONLY the Inst/Nav Check carried over to your permanent Flight Records along with your hours.
This whole question actually got me thinking about when I did my commercial/instrument mil equivalency after UPT (2004). I don't remember if they asked for any documentation, but it seems like I remember the FAA considering the instrument training from UPT to be sufficient to bestow a civilian instrument pilot rating.

So I suppose that at some point in UPT I got a checkride that was actually useful for something.

I do honestly wonder where my UPT gradebook ended up. I'd like to frame some of those gradesheets... Priceless gems, those.

I was invited to interview with both FEDEX and SWA this year. Neither one of them give a crap about the type of failure you're talking about (assuming you were a student and it was a stage check or similar failure). Ethics and lying aren't even in play here. Remember the computer is scoring you for an interview. Never lie but don't reduce your chances by trying to be too cautious and open. Just my .02.

Damn Skippy!!! 87-03 grad from UPT here and I can ABSOLUTELY tell you that "back in the day" when you graduated UPT you got your first FORM 8. Mine, was and still is in my Military Flight Records folder. In those days you took 3 checks rides in T-37s and 3 in T-38s...ONLY the Inst/Nav Check carried over to your permanent Flight Records along with your hours.

Same here. Willie, 89-07. Still have mine.

I understand that the fear here is being passed over by the computer/HR before even getting a look.

This is the crux of my question I guess. My profile has been built since early this year with "yes" marked. Since anything on the internet is forever, I wonder if I change it will they know, as in when you update your profile does the system tell them what changed? I'm sure I'm overthinking it. Anybody know a good office to call at FDX to ask them and put the matter to rest? SWA clarified when they changed their questions on PilotCredentials.com.

Cheers

Why would the airlines care if you ever failed a form check while flying T-38's because you screwed up a turning rejoin? They don't care. I'd treat this question a lot like when my wife asks me if I think her ass is big....no dear, you're beautiful!:D

Why would the airlines care if you ever failed a form check while flying T-38's because you screwed up a turning rejoin? They don't care. I'd treat this question a lot like when my wife asks me if I think her ass is big....no dear, you're beautiful!:D
I doubt they would - as was my non-airline experience, but at the same time, couldn't it be like many other questions asked in airline interviews that are much more about HOW you answer the question than what the answer is? If the question is "have you ever failed a checkride?", then my answer is "yes - and it is a hell of a story" :)

USMCFLYR

I never got a form 8 out of UPT. I did get a big piece of bluish paper that said "Pilot" and some shiny wings though.

The form 8s started at Altus...

edit to add: I wonder what ever happened to my UPT gradebook anyway? So I busted my first try at my Nav check... Does UPS, FEDex or Delta even care?

If you are 04-12, an IP at CAFB can still print it off of TIMS.

Willy 93-04 here. The last class for the base.

Quick question about documentation. I'm assuming that PRIA can't dive into our FEF stuff. When airlines ask about our military checkride history, what is commonly provided? The 842? A whole stack of 8s? Just trying to get a feel for what to take with me when I leave besides the flying history reports

Cheers

Willy 93-04 here. The last class for the base.

Quick question about documentation. I'm assuming that PRIA can't dive into our FEF stuff. When airlines ask about our military checkride history, what is commonly provided? The 842? A whole stack of 8s? Just trying to get a feel for what to take with me when I leave besides the flying history reports

Cheers

I was 93-04 at CAFB - we got a lot of your IPs as the classes graduated in front of you. Those guys were scared of the thick haze, much less clouds. ;)

I copied my entire FEF, put it in a nice folder, and have it available. I doubt any employer will ever ask to look at it, but I have it.

A friend who got out in the '90s and returned to AD after being furloughed, told me he did the same back when he was interviewing in the late '90s. He provided it in one interview, one of the guys looked at it (was obviously military), handed it back to him, thanked him, but said they couldn't keep that sort of info. He also had his OPRs in there.

It is who you are in the military as a pilot and the only real record of your performance. I'd have it available...but that's just me.

As for no one ever having gotten a Form 8 out of pilot training, you're wrong. "Back in the day" when I graduated, the last check ride in T-38s was a NAV/INST "check" and we got a Form 8, I think it was marked "Instrument." Anyway, that's the way we got instrument-rated prior to moving on.

Until the early-'00s sometime, the T-44 guys out of Corpus showed up with the Navy equivalent too. We actually got an ASEV write-up for a guy not having one and after researching it, found out they quit doing it at some point. We never did pin-point the exact date, but I want to say it was around '04. Of course, this only applies to herk guys who went through Corpus. No clue what they were doing on the T38/T1 side of things.

I was 93-04 at CAFB - we got a lot of your IPs as the classes graduated in front of you. Those guys were scared of the thick haze, much less clouds. ;)



Ha! Although with the great weather at Willie, you could taco a ride on Monday and be packing your stuff for Montana on Wednesday. :eek:

No weather cancels to hide nights spent looking for the ladies at ASU rather than hitting the books.

Cheers. Thanks for the words.

Ha! Although with the great weather at Willie, you could taco a ride on Monday and be packing your stuff for Montana on Wednesday. :eek:

I remember one Willy IP telling us that the WX ship would go out in the morning to the back of the farthest area and if they couldn't see the base from there, it was dual weather. He was also flabbergasted at the 15 or so statuses we had at CBM vs the 3 or 4 at Willy. ;) I think CBM was the only place they used the T38 solo WX thing...

Stupid question ...

In your Flight Records folder, isn't there an SUPT Summary page? I have one and it includes the flying time in the T-34 and T-1 (which seat I was in etc.) It also lists grades and evaluations. Funny thing, I used this to determine my flying times in each aircraft since I didn't record them.

My employer required that I bring my originals and copies of the Flight Evaluations and Flight Records.

Personally I think you are playing with fire if you answer no. Do they care, probably not. They care more about you being honest and I'd hate to try to convince the HR team how that question doesn't apply to UPT. They might disagree.