Airline Pilot Forums

After being furloughed once I wanted out of the career. I got out for a bit and decided id try it one last time. Now im seriously done. However I have no idea what I should do. So I thought id ask any of you who left what you ended up doing.

Do anything. I'd make more money selling oranges by the freeway.

What type of degree do you have? What are your interests besides flying? Do you have experience doing anything other than flying? I left a few years back and it was a good decision for me. Shoot me a PM and I can tell you what worked for me.

I have been working on my MA in English with a focus on TESL (Teaching English as a Second / Foreign Language) for the past 2.5 years. I plan to become an English instructor and maybe an aviation ground instructor at a local community college. Yes, it will be a pay cut but I am so burned out with the uncertainties in my schedule, crappy cold wx, early morning min. rest, and airlining all over the place as a fractional pilot. I also have lost all motivation to pursue an airline career and if I get the flying itch, I plan to just rent a C172 on a nice weather weekend.

So my suggestion is to find something that interests you and use your standby time or days off to study and get some credentials for your new career. There was another guy here on the forum who pursued his CPA and left flying to be an accountant. I think anything finance is a good career move, something you can do well into your sixties and perhaps into your seventies. If you want good initial pay, become an actuary. As for me, I plan to work as long as I can to stay active physically and mentally, just not flying.

Hope this helps.

My degree was in engineering (EE) and I was able to update it by taking a couple of networking courses which helped me get to my present position (software engineering).

If you're interested in tech., right now web programming is huge. In the Boston area there're a number of small startups in Cambridge who have a hard time finding people.

Something to think about.

My degree was in engineering (EE) and I was able to update it by taking a couple of networking courses which helped me get to my present position (software engineering).

If you're interested in tech., right now web programming is huge. In the Boston area there're a number of small startups in Cambridge who have a hard time finding people.

Something to think about.
Not very encouraging for me trying to leave an Engineering career for that 1st 17k regional job... :-(
I'd love to hear your reasons for leaving.

Not very encouraging for me trying to leave an Engineering career for that 1st 17k regional job... :-(
I'd love to hear your reasons for leaving.

A better question in my opinion is why are you leaving a good job for a worse one? Smitten with the romance of flying? You would have to truly miserable and hopeless where you are for that move to make much sense. I would think real hard on that decision. Flying at the low end of the market is as much a daily grind as anything, there's less money to take home, and by the way you are not going home you are going to a hotel room again.

A better question in my opinion is why are you leaving a good job for a worse one? Smitten with the romance of flying? You would have to truly miserable and hopeless where you are for that move to make much sense. I would think real hard on that decision. Flying at the low end of the market is as much a daily grind as anything, there's less money to take home, and by the way you are not going home you are going to a hotel room again.
Agree with you, it's not an easy decision. I am just tired of it, sitting in an office all day, almost all the time in a conference call, dealing with corporate political nonsense. It really never ends! Sure the pay is not bad at all...
I've done this for more than 15 years and it's time to move on, now or never! I have to start at the bottom, no way around this unfortunately.

Ahh ok, so you are seriously ready for a change. I would still look at something besides flying. You are too late to have a reasonable shot at the majors. In the attempt you are risking everything. Chances are high you will get stuck at a regional and quit in 5 years. I have had rough spots in engineering as well. My last crisis, half the company was laid off. I seriously thought about bailing out for a CPA. That idea was to hang out a shingle in some small town and work half a day, fly the other half. If I did not happen to have an excellent engineering job now that is what is probably what I would be doing, but regional airlines? That's a young man's game at best.

A better question in my opinion is why are you leaving a good job for a worse one? Smitten with the romance of flying? You would have to truly miserable and hopeless where you are for that move to make much sense. I would think real hard on that decision. Flying at the low end of the market is as much a daily grind as anything, there's less money to take home, and by the way you are not going home you are going to a hotel room again.

I'm coming up on the five year anniversary of when I walked into my engineering manger's office and gave my two week notice. I was a newly minted commercial pilot, and only had a job offer to sit behind the desk of a flight school 2,000 miles away while I finished my CFI. It was a terrifying decision, but I'm a MUCH happier person now. I don't regret it at all, and so far things have worked out ok.

Agree with you, it's not an easy decision. I am just tired of it, sitting in an office all day, almost all the time in a conference call, dealing with corporate political nonsense. It really never ends! Sure the pay is not bad at all...
I've done this for more than 15 years and it's time to move on, now or never! I have to start at the bottom, no way around this unfortunately.

I know that feeling and situation all too well...

Ahh ok, so you are seriously ready for a change. I would still look at something besides flying. You are too late to have a reasonable shot at the majors. In the attempt you are risking everything. Chances are high you will get stuck at a regional and quit in 5 years. I have had rough spots in engineering as well. My last crisis, half the company was laid off. I seriously thought about bailing out for a CPA. That idea was to hang out a shingle in some small town and work half a day, fly the other half. If I did not happen to have an excellent engineering job now that is what is probably what I would be doing, but regional airlines? That's a young man's game at best.
Ok, thanks for the feedback!
But what do you know about me to simply write this: "You are too late to have a reasonable shot at the majors. In the attempt you are risking everything. Chances are high you will get stuck at a regional and quit in 5 years".
It will NOT stop me and since when an Engineering dedree and a career is not a good thing to apply at a major after accumulating the required hours? Are you referring to age? I was told it is not a factor in the US and 25 years flying would be enough for me!

Ok, thanks for the feedback!
But what do you know about me to simply write this: "You are too late to have a reasonable shot at the majors. In the attempt you are risking everything. Chances are high you will get stuck at a regional and quit in 5 years".

Don't read anything negative into it Baron. It's actually good insight.
Since you're probably in your late '30s (?) and just starting out in the regional path and the economy being what it is and...

The warning there is that you could very well be stuck at a regional job indefinitely and the quality of life is generally low. Maybe you won't be, hard to say.

Whatever you decide to do, the message is that you should prepare yourself, in all forms, for an airline career consisting of regional airline pay, benefits and schedule (and that's assuming that there're no job changes inbetween).

Good luck.

Don't read anything negative into it Baron. It's actually good insight.
Since you're probably in your late '30s (?) and just starting out in the regional path and the economy being what it is and...

The warning there is that you could very well be stuck at a regional job indefinitely and the quality of life is generally low. Maybe you won't be, hard to say.

Whatever you decide to do, the message is that you should prepare yourself, in all forms, for an airline career consisting of regional airline pay, benefits and schedule (and that's assuming that there're no job changes inbetween).

Good luck.
Thanks GoPats, I am going in with my eyes wide open and planning for the worst scenario. But I do not want to wake up 20 years from now kicking myself for not trying!
Plan B would be to go back to Engineering but I really have to give it a good try!
Now I would love to hear why people are leaving their flying career.

Thanks GoPats, I am going in with my eyes wide open and planning for the worst scenario. But I do not want to wake up 20 years from now kicking myself for not trying!
Plan B would be to go back to Engineering but I really have to give it a good try!
Now I would love to hear why people are leaving their flying career.

Plenty of threads in this forum on that subject. I think you will find that:career prospects, schedule, salary and mgmt-employee relations are the most common denominators.

Those factors loom large once the initial thrill of flying a SAAB subsides.

I don't know which engineering discipline you happen to be in but, if I were you, I would make a good effort to keep your degree updated. It's cheap insurance.

I'm coming up on the five year anniversary of when I walked into my engineering manger's office and gave my two week notice. I was a newly minted commercial pilot, and only had a job offer to sit behind the desk of a flight school 2,000 miles away while I finished my CFI. It was a terrifying decision, but I'm a MUCH happier person now. I don't regret it at all, and so far things have worked out ok.

Sincerely glad you are happy but your story is an exception, best I can tell. And are you honestly getting close to a major any time soon?

Even if you are, I do not think many here would argue a post age-40 entry at a regional is a very solid career move. Only if you really don't need the money and have a secondary source of income.

Sincerely glad you are happy but your story is an exception, best I can tell. And are you honestly getting close to a major any time soon?

Even if you are, I do not think many here would argue a post age-40 entry at a regional is a very solid career move. Only if you really don't need the money and have a secondary source of income.

I doubt that I'm getting close to a major anytime soon (as in the next year or two), but five years from now? Yes, I think I will be.

As far as somebody that is post-40 making a career change, I never said anything about that. My post was made prior to any notification of age, and was directed towards your earlier comments about why somebody would leave engineering for aviation.

I earned my PPL when I was 27, and made the jump from engineering to full time CFI when I was 30. I'm currently 34 and have 2600 TT, ATP, and a type rating. I have no debt and have at least 6 months living expenses in savings. Unfortunately I'm just a regional FO, but I have previous experience in charter and corporate and would be just as happy to get back into that side of things if the airlines continue to stagnate (which I don't think they will).

One thing that I do see a lot of here is that people forget charter and corporate will typically pay off better in the short term than slogging it out in the airlines... However, I felt that I'm still young enough to take a chance on the airlines, and if nothing else at least I would walk away with a bunch of fantastic training and experience if I go back to charter/corporate.

Thanks GoPats, I am going in with my eyes wide open and planning for the worst scenario. But I do not want to wake up 20 years from now kicking myself for not trying!
Plan B would be to go back to Engineering but I really have to give it a good try!
Now I would love to hear why people are leaving their flying career.

Okay - I will take a stab at this one.

Previous job - 121 PIC for a regional - 6 years

Crappy FO pay 21,000 per year
Crappy Reserve schedules
Abusive management
Base Closures
Seniority not honored
Stalemate contract negotiation courtesy of RLA
Unbelievable awful trips - 18 hour 4 days
Two leg commutes
Gone from home 20 days per month
Finishing Salary $63,000 per year

Think that's worth it. Go for it.

Don't do it, you will regret it. I don't care how enthusiastic you are or how wide open your eyes are. This industry is continuing to change and it is not getting better. Look at the decline in pay and quality of life at the Major carriers, 40-60% paycuts, reduced benefits and QOL. Look at American, those guys are about to get completely screwed. Think you will make it to SWA for FDX?, join the other thousands of regional pilots that will never get there. Get your ratings, buy a plane and have fun. If that is not enough build time while employed and get on with a charter operation near were you live. I left because crappy schedules, really crappy pay and no real future.

A need to "get it out of our system" and "go for our dream" and "not be denied" etc. are all valid concerns to be dealt with for sure. But I am convinced having read these boards the last 5 years that "running off to join the circus" is what going to a regional airline past age 30 mainly consists of. It is not the best way to deal with those feelings. Going for it only makes sense if finances are more or less irrelevant and/or you are under 30 when you get started in your airline quest. For the rest of us who have to live in the real world of late middle-age, we use our heads and deal with our feelings of wanting to be an airline pilot in other constructive ways. We teach, buy an airplane, read and write posts on APC, things like that. I assure you I could run off to almost any regional yet I never have knowing what I know about the subject. And I cannot speak for everyone, and maybe you should go. But it is about chance- there is an outcome we will like in this decision, and an outcome we will certainly not like. I am convinced the latter is the one with far greater chance. At the very least I would caution someone before giving up a viable career for an airline attempt to think about it for no less than 3-5 years.

Okay - I will take a stab at this one.

Previous job - 121 PIC for a regional - 6 years

Crappy FO pay 21,000 per year
Crappy Reserve schedules
Abusive management
Base Closures
Seniority not honored
Stalemate contract negotiation courtesy of RLA
Unbelievable awful trips - 18 hour 4 days
Two leg commutes
Gone from home 20 days per month
Finishing Salary $63,000 per year

Think that's worth it. Go for it.


Remember Baron: Take out some inexpensive employment insurance if you choose to do it.

Remember Baron: Take out some inexpensive employment insurance if you choose to do it.
1000% agree with you! And that's the reason I did not do it long ago, I wanted an Engineering degree and a career to go back to if the dream turns into a nightmare!
Sincerely appreciate all the feedback!

I'm coming up on the five year anniversary of when I walked into my engineering manger's office and gave my two week notice. I was a newly minted commercial pilot, and only had a job offer to sit behind the desk of a flight school 2,000 miles away while I finished my CFI. It was a terrifying decision, but I'm a MUCH happier person now. I don't regret it at all, and so far things have worked out ok.

Of course you're happy. But what about when it's time to move out of mom's basement and start a family of your own? I guarantee that the honeymoon will be over then.
Leave an engineering job for THIS? Wrong move.

Thanks GoPats, I am going in with my eyes wide open and planning for the worst scenario. But I do not want to wake up 20 years from now kicking myself for not trying!
Plan B would be to go back to Engineering but I really have to give it a good try!
Now I would love to hear why people are leaving their flying career.

Here comes another divorce, broken family. Nothing else like it. Why people get so delusional about aviation.

HotMamaPilot is spot on.

Here comes another divorce, broken family. Nothing else like it. Why people get so delusional about aviation.

HotMamaPilot is spot on.

HMP is no more "spot on" than if the next poster said: "Here comes the next major airline captain to make well over 6 figures and work 10 days a month".

Both are extreme examples of what can happen in today's aviation environment.

I would say - here is the next possible ........., but some people need the dramatics ;)

BR - there are better ways to feed that aviation desire. You might think that your eyes are wide open, but I think they are a bit clouded.
Best of luck in any case.

USMCFLYR

HMP is no more "spot on" than if the next poster said: "Here comes the next major airline captain to make well over 6 figures and work 10 days a month".

Both are extreme examples of what can happen in today's aviation environment.

I would say - here is the next possible ........., but some people need the dramatics ;)

BR - there are better ways to feed that aviation desire. You might think that your eyes are wide open, but I think they are a bit clouded.
Best of luck in any case.

USMCFLYR

Just what is the ratio between the two? I bet 6-1, in favor of the pilot ending up with child support payments.

Just what is the ratio between the two? I bet 6-1, in favor of the pilot ending up with child support payments.

Definitely a safe bet. Besides, just think about staying happily marrried and home every night as an engineer versus being a divorced pilot who's love life consists of being fondled in the TSA line.
Life is uncertain (Eat desert first!), but I would certainly wager 10-1 odds on the engineering path working out better in all ways.

Just what is the ratio between the two? I bet 6-1, in favor of the pilot ending up with child support payments.
If you have statistics I'd like to see them. Even the military is not that much higher than the national average. I've seen A LOT of divorces in my time and few of them rarely have anything to do with the job. Now MONEY, which of course can be linked to the job, is a huge stressor; but that same stressor seems to hit every group from end to end. It is a problem, it is a (good?) chance, it might happen, but marriages fail for many reasons.

USMCFLYR

If you have statistics I'd like to see them. Even the military is not that much higher than the national average. I've seen A LOT of divorces in my time and few of them rarely have anything to do with the job. Now MONEY, which of course can be linked to the job, is a huge stressor; but that same stressor seems to hit every group from end to end. It is a problem, it is a (good?) chance, it might happen, but marriages fail for many reasons.

USMCFLYR

I know for fact that the ANC crews beat the national average.
Btw, where is skyhigh. I take a few weeks off to have a kid and he gets banned?!

I'm coming up on the five year anniversary of when I walked into my engineering manger's office and gave my two week notice. I was a newly minted commercial pilot, and only had a job offer to sit behind the desk of a flight school 2,000 miles away while I finished my CFI. It was a terrifying decision, but I'm a MUCH happier person now. I don't regret it at all, and so far things have worked out ok.


Oh yeah, I remember my 5 year anniversary (10 years ago) and it also looked pretty good back then. I am one of the lucky ones who never got furloughed and makes a decent living flying corporate. I am a second generation pilot who at the early age of two was already an airplane fanatic if you know what I mean. Our industry is one of the most regulated, underpaid, under appreciated and demanding in the world. I wish I could go back in time and become a dentist that way I could actually afford to buy that Pitts I have always wanted.

If you have statistics I'd like to see them. Even the military is not that much higher than the national average. I've seen A LOT of divorces in my time and few of them rarely have anything to do with the job. Now MONEY, which of course can be linked to the job, is a huge stressor; but that same stressor seems to hit every group from end to end. It is a problem, it is a (good?) chance, it might happen, but marriages fail for many reasons.

USMCFLYR

Money is certainly a big factor in divorces but a heavy-travel job certainly puts a tremendous strain on any marriage. I don't know what the exact rates are or aren't so my knowledge is anecdotal.
I'll say this: There're plenty of spouses who can't cope with the stress of managing on their own for 8-12 days at a time, especially if there're younger children involved and there's no family around to help. I'm sure some thought they could when the topic was hypothetical.
A lot of marriages cannot survive that for too long. I think the people on these boards who are homeowners and married with children know what I'm talking about.
Things always seem to go south while you're away.
It's a tough one. No doubt about it. How do you get around that?

I know for fact that the ANC crews beat the national average.
Btw, where is skyhigh. I take a few weeks off to have a kid and he gets banned?!
Alaska leads the nation in a lot of things :) - not all of them good.
Nope - I'm sure SH is around. Maybe he did get busy with the new little one.

Beating the national average might not be hard, but your 6-1 average is pushing 85%. :eek: I was curious after our posts so I went a looking with some Google-fu. Couldn't find ANY FACTS. Lots of people on web boards (imagine that) always saying that pilots had a MUCH higher divorce rate (PP, JC, and even Yahoo Answers), but again - opinions without a single quoted reference. ONE article I came across listed occupations that travel a lot having a higher degree of divorces, but it was at the end of a list of other professions that have higher than normals rates - to include: #1 - Law Enforcement, #2 Entertainment people, #3 Doctors and other health professionals - - - some careers that people on these boards often suggest as alternatives to a piloting career but I see few offering the same advice to someone thinking of going to medical school ("better get a lawyer to handle your inevitable divorce if you are going to be a doctor!")

GoPats. That is why I have seen many young marriages go south in the military. The wife can't handle 8-12 days alone? Try 8-12 months! Many jump into the marriage without knowing what they are getting in to - much like a few careers. They live on the 'love will get us through' mantra. That wears off as quickly as SJS after the hard reality sets in. But see my above about the careers with some of the highest divorce rates (but still without statistics, or at least statistics that can be verified from a published study or such). Now your last question......were you asking in general or personally?

USMCFLYR

Alaska leads the nation in a lot of things :) - not all of them good.
Nope - I'm sure SH is around. Maybe he did get busy with the new little one.

Beating the national average might not be hard, but your 6-1 average is pushing 85%. :eek: I was curious after our posts so I went a looking with some Google-fu. Couldn't find ANY FACTS. Lots of people on web boards (imagine that) always saying that pilots had a MUCH higher divorce rate (PP, JC, and even Yahoo Answers), but again - opinions without a single quoted reference. ONE article I came across listed occupations that travel a lot having a higher degree of divorces, but it was at the end of a list of other professions that have higher than normals rates - to include: #1 - Law Enforcement, #2 Entertainment people, #3 Doctors and other health professionals - - - some careers that people on these boards often suggest as alternatives to a piloting career but I see few offering the same advice to someone thinking of going to medical school ("better get a lawyer to handle your inevitable divorce if you are going to be a doctor!")

GoPats. That is why I have seen many young marriages go south in the military. The wife can't handle 8-12 days alone? Try 8-12 months! Many jump into the marriage without knowing what they are getting in to - much like a few careers. They live on the 'love will get us through' mantra. That wears off as quickly as SJS after the hard reality sets in. But see my above about the careers with some of the highest divorce rates (but still without statistics, or at least statistics that can be verified from a published study or such). Now your last question......were you asking in general or personally?

USMCFLYR

My question was strictly rhetorical. :)
Good point on the military life though.

How about becoming a flight dispatcher.

How about becoming a flight dispatcher.

That's actually something I've been looking into. Any dispatchers on the forum?

I could be wrong here but from what I understand dispatching does not pay that well.

I haven't logged in here in quite awhile but am always curious as to the state of aviation today.

First a bit of background on my experience. I have loved flying since the beginning. After achiving my PPL before graduating high school and paying for it on my own, I've gone throught the flight instructor, jump pilot, banner tower, single pilot IFR night check hauler routine. Eagle flew me to Dallas for an interview right before I had an interview with my current employer but I left flying over 20 years ago.

I won't discourage anyone from a flying career but also remind them to have a backup. If the person is preparing for college DO NOT get an aviation management or pro pilot major. Those are close to useless if it doesn't work out. Aquiring a good aviation career is the equivelent to the local bar bands aspiring to become a rock star. It takes perseverance, timing and a bit of luck while living in the back of a bus. Being at the right place and right time is important. Also in the corporate world there is an excess of qualified people for the job. The HR department of any company is looking for those who fit into their corporate culture.

You have a good career to fall back on however there are other things to consider. Do you have a home with a mortgage payment? If so your savings will dwindle faster than a government budget surplus. Do you have a family? If so would the health insurance in an aviation career be better than at your engineering job? Trust me, when you say everyone is healthy and do not need anything is when things pop up. Would your current situation allow you to be awaken at any time to get to the airport? Undoubtedly you would be on reserve 24/7. How about staying away from home for extended periods?

O.K., you've answered those questions and as someone above stated "are living in mom's basement". That is not meant as a dig but as a way to say you are free from those constraints. Hell, I wish I'd have never moved out. I'd have a million in the bank. Remember, you are starting out and will get the dregs. Now how about health issues? Look at your family history for anything that would occur preventing you from a 1st class medical. I say this because I was the epitome of perfect health according to my docs. A few years ago I threw a blood clot which surprised them all and realize how fortunate I was to leave aviation and have a very good job most people in my area would kill for. I now go through a rig-a-marol for a special issuance medical certificate.

I know flying is in the blood including mine but I do not reqret leaving the career. It could be different for you but consider all the pros and cons. If you are able to try it out considering the above then go for it. You could also go for a part time gig in charter to get your flying fix. I'm getting my fix by going for a life long dream to build my own plane. A four place bushplane called a Bearhawk. I used to have SJS (shiny jet syndrome) but now realize the best flying is in small planes, including sailplanes, just for the fun of it. Good luck in whatever you choose.

Oh the aviation cliches. ALL industries require timing, perseverance, and a little bit of luck. In my opinion, MOST degrees today are useless (except the ones that are required for a profession like DR/JD/engineering, etc) including every pilot's favorite: The MBA. Due to the onslaught of liberal policies where "everyone deserves to go to school", it has watered down the importance of a college degree to that of a HS diploma. I'm tired of the whining on this board about how tough we have it or whatever. Guess what? It's a dog eat dog world out there for EVERYONE!

I could be wrong here but from what I understand dispatching does not pay that well.

I fly for a regional....

I haven't logged in here in quite awhile but am always curious as to the state of aviation today.

First a bit of background on my experience. I have loved flying since the beginning. After achiving my PPL before graduating high school and paying for it on my own, I've gone throught the flight instructor, jump pilot, banner tower, single pilot IFR night check hauler routine. Eagle flew me to Dallas for an interview right before I had an interview with my current employer but I left flying over 20 years ago.

I won't discourage anyone from a flying career but also remind them to have a backup. If the person is preparing for college DO NOT get an aviation management or pro pilot major. Those are close to useless if it doesn't work out. Aquiring a good aviation career is the equivelent to the local bar bands aspiring to become a rock star. It takes perseverance, timing and a bit of luck while living in the back of a bus. Being at the right place and right time is important. Also in the corporate world there is an excess of qualified people for the job. The HR department of any company is looking for those who fit into their corporate culture.

You have a good career to fall back on however there are other things to consider. Do you have a home with a mortgage payment? If so your savings will dwindle faster than a government budget surplus. Do you have a family? If so would the health insurance in an aviation career be better than at your engineering job? Trust me, when you say everyone is healthy and do not need anything is when things pop up. Would your current situation allow you to be awaken at any time to get to the airport? Undoubtedly you would be on reserve 24/7. How about staying away from home for extended periods?

O.K., you've answered those questions and as someone above stated "are living in mom's basement". That is not meant as a dig but as a way to say you are free from those constraints. Hell, I wish I'd have never moved out. I'd have a million in the bank. Remember, you are starting out and will get the dregs. Now how about health issues? Look at your family history for anything that would occur preventing you from a 1st class medical. I say this because I was the epitome of perfect health according to my docs. A few years ago I threw a blood clot which surprised them all and realize how fortunate I was to leave aviation and have a very good job most people in my area would kill for. I now go through a rig-a-marol for a special issuance medical certificate.

I know flying is in the blood including mine but I do not reqret leaving the career. It could be different for you but consider all the pros and cons. If you are able to try it out considering the above then go for it. You could also go for a part time gig in charter to get your flying fix. I'm getting my fix by going for a life long dream to build my own plane. A four place bushplane called a Bearhawk. I used to have SJS (shiny jet syndrome) but now realize the best flying is in small planes, including sailplanes, just for the fun of it. Good luck in whatever you choose.

Nice post. Good reminder about the medical. Another thing that people don't consider is playing football(e.g.) with their kids. One slip and there is a compound fracture. Out for six months. Loss of medical insurance? A joke. There are quite a few sdf guys that are having a midlife crisis and play in ice hockey leagues. This is a prime example of an accident waiting to happen. Order centre ice and let the pros entertain you. Moral of story: because of this profession, a dad can't even play football with his kids! How un-American is that?

Nice post. Good reminder about the medical. Another thing that people don't consider is playing football(e.g.) with their kids. One slip and there is a compound fracture. Out for six months. Loss of medical insurance? A joke. There are quite a few sdf guys that are having a midlife crisis and play in ice hockey leagues. This is a prime example of an accident waiting to happen. Order centre ice and let the pros entertain you. Moral of story: because of this profession, a dad can't even play football with his kids! How un-American is that?

Couldn't agree more with HMP on this.

That's why I suggest that everyone pick up some NE Patriots jerseys for their family, watch the Superbowl together, be safe and patriotic all at the same time.:D

Nice post. Good reminder about the medical. Another thing that people don't consider is playing football(e.g.) with their kids. One slip and there is a compound fracture. Out for six months. Loss of medical insurance? A joke. There are quite a few sdf guys that are having a midlife crisis and play in ice hockey leagues. This is a prime example of an accident waiting to happen. Order centre ice and let the pros entertain you. Moral of story: because of this profession, a dad can't even play football with his kids! How un-American is that?
And you still enjoy your prefession, and there is nothing else you'd better be doing. So, stop complaining Hot Mama or why don't you find something else to do? Want to trade jobs? I will give you my IT Engineering job in a heart beat!!!
I know you are raising awareness for people in my situation and I do appreciate it!
Good luck to you and everyone!

And you still enjoy your prefession, and there is nothing else you'd better be doing. So, stop complaining Hot Mama or why don't you find something else to do? Want to trade jobs? I will give you my IT Engineering job in a heart beat!!!
I know you are raising awareness for people in my situation and I do appreciate it!
Good luck to you and everyone!

I fit in a category different from 90% of the average.

I didn't pay for one red cent of my education, training etc.(mom and dad did).

I live at base and will NEVER have to commute.

Has this job been good to me? Yes, but I am by far the exception and NOT the rule.

I fit in a category different from 90% of the average.

I didn't pay for one red cent of my education, training etc.(mom and dad did).

I live at base and will NEVER have to commute.

Has this job been good to me? Yes, but I am by far the exception and NOT the rule.
This is really funny! Just because Mommy and Daddy paid for you, and just because you live in base DOES NOT make you THE exception!
I do not think you are the ONLY one happy doing this job!

And you still enjoy your prefession, and there is nothing else you'd better be doing. So, stop complaining Hot Mama or why don't you find something else to do? Want to trade jobs? I will give you my IT Engineering job in a heart beat!!!
I know you are raising awareness for people in my situation and I do appreciate it!
Good luck to you and everyone!

BaronRouge,

For the most part I've found the biggest whiners in this profession to be those that have never had a career outside aviation. They naively think that everybody else in the business/law/engineering/medical field/etc is making six figures with amazing benefits and lavish vacations. Of course that is NOT true at all, and I enjoy a MUCH higher quality of life with more time at home as a pilot than I did as an engineer.

This is really funny! Just because Mommy and Daddy paid for you, and just because you live in base DOES NOT make you THE exception!
I do not think you are the ONLY one happy doing this job!

I had zero overhead from day one (at simmonds (eagle) and then brown). I was "profitable" from day one. How many others can say that (Except military)? That was my point. If I had an 1100 dollar per month key loan note for 15 years and was making 37 bucks an hour with slim chance of upgrade, I would be hating life, wondering why I did this.

I had zero overhead from day one (at simmonds (eagle) and then brown). I was "profitable" from day one. How many others can say that (Except military)? That was my point. If I had an 1100 dollar per month key loan note for 15 years and was making 37 bucks an hour with slim chance of upgrade, I would be hating life, wondering why I did this.
And my point HotMama is... everyone is different not just you. I did not pay for my education either, I come from a European Engineering school and didn't have to pay anything, you just need to make it through the selection process. Sure, I paid for my pilot training working as an engineer, Mommy and Daddy did not, unlike you. And I am not going into this with my eyes closed, I have 0 debt, just like you, saved a lot and with a plan B if things go south.

And my point HotMama is... everyone is different not just you. I did not pay for my education either, I come from a European Engineering school and didn't have to pay anything, you just need to make it through the selection process. Sure, I paid for my pilot training working as an engineer, Mommy and Daddy did not, unlike you. And I am not going into this with my eyes closed, I have 0 debt, just like you, saved a lot and with a plan B if things go south.

Look, I'm not attacking you, just a decision that one may have to leave an engineering job for this. What about when you have to commute? Notice WHEN and not IF. Do you have a family? I'm just saying that I will never HAVE to commute. I have no desire to upgrade (esp out-of-base). Are you gonna survive off of fo regional pay? And for how long?

There is something to be said for enjoying life with family and friends, doing what you want / love for a profession...Also, it helps to be able to max out that 401K and still have money left to put into other investment vehicles. There is more to life than a awesome view out the office window...Just my 2 cents worth...Enjoy your selves and stay beautiful!!!

BaronRouge,

For the most part I've found the biggest whiners in this profession to be those that have never had a career outside aviation. They naively think that everybody else in the business/law/engineering/medical field/etc is making six figures with amazing benefits and lavish vacations. Of course that is NOT true at all, and I enjoy a MUCH higher quality of life with more time at home as a pilot than I did as an engineer.
Disagree. I've worked outside of aviation quite a bit (before comming to aviation) and what has really left an impression on me is that there ARE jobs out there where you work your a$$ off, where nothing is handed to you, where you gotta prove yourself to be a good worker, and those jobs can pay well. Heck, one of those was working for myself. It's not like they are giving away money or you are sitting around, but I didn't mind working my a$$ off and really trying because I knew the company gave a crap about me. Overtime, doubletime, real incentives, not just pennies in the can. Then there were the "teambuilding" aspects, how you were respected by management, etc. And then there was the military, expected to get up and fight at a moments notice (kind of like aviation, get up and fly), and everything, but you're paid every day, all day, and while not much, you got room and board and lots of other things that an airline will never provide. At least they gave me my own cot and sleeping bag, haha.

So what amazes me is the 180 degree view with aviation, that the employee is not a professional (except in name-calling only), that they are not worth it, that investing back in them is a waste of time, that it should be an "us vs them" mentality. That you can put in hard work and it doesn't really matter or benefit you at all.

Everyone wants a piece of the pie though, with as many airlines as we have, I'm not sure it's visible with the human eye. I'm not getting out of aviation though, just commercial airlines (it's amazing how many other things can fly!).

Gee whiz. I like the job. I don't make much, but I actually really enjoy it. XJT 5 years, 2 months. 36 years old, family man with a working professional wife.

Corporate dronedom is not for me. I think it helps to be have travel, no matter how crappy the destination, in your blood. The actual flying varies; sometimes it's great, sometimes it's "just a job." But for the most part, I like who I work with, I like the overnights, I like not having a boss to speak of.

The people who are happiest with the gig are a) people who have tried other jobs, b) lucky enough to have avoided the worst reserve work, and c) have their eyes open as to the dues paying, money-hungry nature of the first quarter to half of their career.

A bunch of guys got sold the dream and it hasn't worked out as they expected. Many of them might be better off elsewhere. But only YOU can determine how satisfied you'll be doing a walkaround in Fargo at 5:15AM in January getting paid forty grand a year with upgrade nowhere in sight.

Re-read that and it reads like it was composed on an iPhone by a tired guy, which it was. Forgive the syntax and run-ons, just take the content, please.

Re-read that and it reads like it was composed on an iPhone by a tired guy, which it was. Forgive the syntax and run-ons, just take the content, please.

I guess in the world of unicorns and rainbows, run-ons are overlooked anyhow.

Disagree. I've worked outside of aviation quite a bit (before comming to aviation) and what has really left and impression on me is that there ARE jobs out there where you work your a$$ off, where nothing is handed to you, where you gotta prove yourself to be a good worker, and those jobs can pay well. Heck, one of those was working for myself. It's not like they are giving away money or you are sitting around, but I didn't mind working my a$$ off and really trying because I knew the company gave a crap about me. Overtime, doubletime, real incentives, not just pennies in the can. Then there were the "teambuilding" aspects, how you were respected by management, etc. And then there was the military, expected to get up and fight at a moments notice (kind of like aviation, get up and fly), and everything, but you're paid every day, all day, and while not much, you got room and board and lots of other things that an airline will never provide. At least they gave me my own cot and sleeping back, haha.

So what amazes me is the 180 degree view with aviation, that the employee is not a professional (except in name-calling only), that they are not worth it, that investing back in them is a waste of time, that it should be an "us vs them" mentality. That you can put in hard work and it doesn't really matter or benefit you at all.

Everyone wants a piece of the pie though, with as many airlines as we have, I'm not sure it's visible with the human eye. I'm not getting out of aviation though, just commercial airlines (it's amazing how many other things can fly!).

And that's the point I've been trying to get across. It's not that every other career field is rose petals, endless parties and lots of bank. They're not and I don't believe anyone was suggesting that.

It's the ratios of effort/reward, of education/standing, of respect earned/respect received.

Those, I believe, are the bottom line parameters when you look at this profession objectively. These failings, in my opinion, are systemic and when you throw in the "SJS" (as someone called it) they're nowhere near being improved. It will take people speaking up, loudly, frequently and sometimes with their feet.

Numerically speaking this is why the career blows.

Assumptions
-12 days off/month (which is generous considering the state of the industry) = 18.41 days at work / mo
- 18.41/4 (4 trips /mo) = 4.6 days / trip
-Start at 9 am 1st day & finish 6 pm last day (also generous considering the state of the industry) = 33 hrs for 1st & last day
- 2.6 days * 24 hr day = 62.4 (as 33 hrs accounted for 1st & last day)
- 62.4 + 33 = 95.4 hrs / trip
- 95.4*12 = 381 hrs / month
- 381*12 = 4572 hrs / yr spent at work :eek:

Some will say but you sleep during that time....ok fair enough
- 3 days of the 4 you will sleep assume 10 hrs / night. (again generous considering reality)
- 3*10 = 30*4 trips / month = 120 hrs * 12 months = 1440 hrs sleeping/eating.
-4572-1440 = 3,132 hrs gone from your life while at work / year.

The 8 to 5er schedule
- .5 hr commute to & from wk each day + 9 hr day = 10 hrs /day
- 50 hrs / week at work * 52 weeks = 2,600 gone from your life while at work/ year.

Again I was generous in the assumptions favoring the pilot proffession & even excluded commute times on the pilot side of the equation. Then factor all the missed birthdays, plays, recitals, holidays, mtn bike rides/ski days etc. That is why we as pilots are fed up or dilussional.:eek:

Ski Patrol -

So you have proven that a job which involves TRAVEL is gone more often than a job of a 9 to 5'er with a half hour commute. And this is news to you? Hint: If you convert all the numbers to minutes they get even BIGGER and more impressive with more commas between the numbers. I'm sure that you knew from your research of the industry BEFORE you entered it that you would be gone on the road as an airline pilot right?

USMCFLYR

Ski Patrol -

So you have proven that a job which involves TRAVEL is gone more often than a job of a 9 to 5'er with a half hour commute. And this is news to you? Hint: If you convert all the numbers to minutes they get even BIGGER and more impressive with more commas between the numbers. I'm sure that you knew from your research of the industry BEFORE you entered it that you would be gone on the road as an airline pilot right?

USMCFLYR

USMC....what can I say without getting an infraction. You sure put me in my place.:rolleyes: But by all means feel free to flame on since you are protected as a moderator. see above.

BTW you still don't get it cause you haven't lived it. (being an airline pilot that is) Guess what I have.

Don't worry though I won't bother getting into a tit for tat discussion with you. ;)

You know what it sounds like Baron is tired of his cubicle. Just get that flying job, as you said it yourself you don't want to live life asking yourself what if? Doesn't matter what anyone here says we all had the warnings about the industry. For some it worked out and for some it didn't. In the end only you will decide if you made the right decision.

Only thing I'd add to what ski said about being gone more than being home is that you you will spend more time sitting at the airport, sleeping in hotels and at vending machines than even you can imagine. Don't be cheap, just get a nice 21inch carry-on to live in...

SkiPatrol

OK, I'll bite and I'm not a moderator.

If you think travel for pilots equals "fed up and delusional", what then of:

Civil Engineers working construction projects
Truck Drivers, frequently away more than pilots
Military, no more need be said here
Any number of professions that go 'on the road' Monday thru Friday, just look at the business passengers or talk with them. Huge swaths of managerial/sales/engineering jobs travel two to three times a week
Maritime vocations
Entertainment--Tony Bourdain travels 200+ days a year, for example
Circus people live on a train
Speaking of which, train drivers

It is just whining to say travel equals unhappy. If you entered aviation, how could possibly not have known travel would involve being away from home. BTW, ex-airline, ex-military, present corporate about to go out for 15 days.

GF

USMC....what can I say without getting an infraction. You sure put me in my place.:rolleyes: But by all means feel free to flame on since you are protected as a moderator. see above.

BTW you still don't get it cause you haven't lived it. (being an airline pilot that is) Guess what I have.

Don't worry though I won't bother getting into a tit for tat discussion with you. ;)
So by pointing out that you proved that a job involving travel would caused you to be gone, I need to invoke moderator privileges for protection.

Your right - I haven't lived the live of an airline pilot, but I'll put my life experience of being on the road against yours anytime you like, and not just for 4 days at a time.

I encourage you to report my post if you feel pointing out the obvious is flamebaitish.

USMCFLYR

SkiPatrol

OK, I'll bite and I'm not a moderator.

If you think travel for pilots equals "fed up and delusional", what then of:

Civil Engineers working construction projects
Truck Drivers, frequently away more than pilots
Military, no more need be said here
Any number of professions that go 'on the road' Monday thru Friday, just look at the business passengers or talk with them. Huge swaths of managerial/sales/engineering jobs travel two to three times a week
Maritime vocations
Entertainment--Tony Bourdain travels 200+ days a year, for example
Circus people live on a train
Speaking of which, train drivers

It is just whining to say travel equals unhappy. If you entered aviation, how could possibly not have known travel would involve being away from home. BTW, ex-airline, ex-military, present corporate about to go out for 15 days.

GF

C'mon are we gonna compare pilots to truck drivers, train drivers, circus people etc.

Avg airline pilot pay according to indeed.com is currently 89,000.
So the avg airline pilot makes (according to my calc's)

28.41/hr = 89000/3132 hrs at wk.

Then you factor in everything else....& well the #'s speak for themselves.

BTW avg truck driver pay = 53K indeed.com:cool:

SkiPatrol

OK, I'll bite and I'm not a moderator.

If you think travel for pilots equals "fed up and delusional", what then of:

Civil Engineers working construction projects
Truck Drivers, frequently away more than pilots
Military, no more need be said here
Any number of professions that go 'on the road' Monday thru Friday, just look at the business passengers or talk with them. Huge swaths of managerial/sales/engineering jobs travel two to three times a week
Maritime vocations
Entertainment--Tony Bourdain travels 200+ days a year, for example
Circus people live on a train
Speaking of which, train drivers

It is just whining to say travel equals unhappy. If you entered aviation, how could possibly not have known travel would involve being away from home. BTW, ex-airline, ex-military, present corporate about to go out for 15 days.

GF

I think Ski was alluding more to the sacrifice vs. return argument. I'd like to think that nobody who hates to travel would even give the airlines a second thought.

I agree with Rnav though. Baron seems like he's burned out in his current job and needs to give it a try. He has a 'Plan B', I don't believe he's married, so...

SkiPatrol

The comparison is about travel, not pay. The fact is many people, in many occupations travel as much, or more, than airline pilots and earn more, or less, than airline pilots. BTW, you cannot, under FSLA, count time off duty as work hours, which you are doing. Even so, a lo of people would love to get $28.41 an hour.

GF

and first year FO at a regional $24,000/3132 = $7.66! Jus say'n...

SkiPatrol

The comparison is about travel, not pay. The fact is many people, in many occupations travel as much, or more, than airline pilots and earn more, or less, than airline pilots. BTW, you cannot, under FSLA, count time off duty as work hours, which you are doing. Even so, a lo of people would love to get $28.41 an hour.

GF

Negative it's about the whole enchilada! Furthermore my #'s were biased in favor of showing a higher hourly wage.

I don't have the time... but if you used weighted avg's (Fedex, SWA, UPS etc skew the #'s) the avg hourly rate a pilot makes is prob around $20.00!

If most pilots think 28.41 is peachy then I'm wasting my time.

PS if I'm not at a place doing what I want to do, then it's still work IMO.

Apparently, you are wasting your time! The thousands of pilots who are working, keep showing up and thousands would do most anything to get a seat in some kind of plane. H@ll, a guy on another thread is retiring to pursue a seat, others are quitting good engineering jobs to get a seat. Maybe you should reconsider your commitment to aviation.

GF

I think Ski was alluding more to the sacrifice vs. return argument. I'd like to think that nobody who hates to travel would even give the airlines a second thought.

I agree with Rnav though. Baron seems like he's burned out in his current job and needs to give it a try. He has a 'Plan B', I don't believe he's married, so...
Sorry then. If he meant to make some connection with time on the road and pay I must have missed it because I didn't see a $ in his post anywhere. Just a bunch of calculations of days and hours on the road.

I agree GoPats - I would hate to think that someone would hire into a job/career in a field where it is known that you must travel and then complain of the days gone. Were they lied too at some point? Many times a job application states something like 'Travel: Approx. 25%'. I would be upset if I saw that on an application, and then during the interview was told the same thing, then took the job and was on the road 50+% of the time; but I doubt that was the case.

Ski Patrol's post seemed to me to be akin to a fisherman complaining about being on the water, a lifeguard having to sit in the sun, or a military person deploying. :)

I was at a small get-together tonight at a friend's house who works in the oil/gas drilling business in West Virginia. They decided to have the party tonight because it was the first time the husband had been home in 3 months. He makes MORE than a regional FO, less than a SWA CA and is on the road MANY MORE days/hours/and minutes than either I'm willing to bet.

In the end - anybody should known what they were getting into when they entered this field with regard to the amount of time spent on the road. If people are really concerned with the numbers of hours away or missing birthdays to such an extent, would making a few thousand more a year really make a difference? So what IS the breaking price/point I wonder for Little Timmy's birthday party?

To those outside the profession of aviation looking in; Ski Patrol's point is right on target. YOU WILL SPEND TIME ON THE ROAD IF YOU ENTER 99.5% OF THE JOBS IN THE FIELD OF PROFESSIONAL AVIATION. You have been warned! :D

USMCFLYR

USMC:
I like the whole fisherman comparison that was good. What was my point....I think it was obvious & further clarified in subsequent posts. But if it wasn't then oh well my bad I guess.

USMC:
I like the whole fisherman comparison that was good. What was my point....I think it was obvious & further clarified in subsequent posts. But if it wasn't then oh well my bad I guess.
You did clarify your point in subsequent posts. You were saying that it was a lot of time on the road for little pay right? Truthfully though, it wasn't clear in the beginning. You seemed to just be railing on the time spent away from home.

It is an interesting question though about the breaking point when it is worth missing all of those important events in one's life. Some people put more of a importance on the particular day rather than celebrating the event.

In your particular situation Ski Patrol I'm curious, did you not know how much time you would be on the road? Has it increased over time maybe with a decrease in pay and if so do you have a break even point as questioned above? I'm just asking for some background here so I can better understand your point of view. Not flamebait and not trying to knock you :)

USMCFLYR

USMC, I think you're right that there is a break-even point. For me, that point was a lot lower at 22 and single than at 30, married with a kid. Career stagnation and the continual downward spiral of pay and QOL has turned a lot of optimists into pessimists. Everybody has different priorities and is willing to make different tradeoffs and a lot of people have had and will have great careers in aviation, but I think for more and more people, the rewards of an airline career just aren't worth the sacrifices. Just my $.02..

USMC, I think you're right that there is a break-even point. For me, that point was a lot lower at 22 and single than at 30, married with a kid. Career stagnation and the continual downward spiral of pay and QOL has turned a lot of optimists into pessimists. Everybody has different priorities and is willing to make different tradeoffs and a lot of people have had and will have great careers in aviation, but I think for more and more people, the rewards of an airline career just aren't worth the sacrifices. Just my $.02..
I'm not saying there is a break-even point - - I'm asking if there is and what it is for the different people.

I'll wholeheartedly agree with you that it is different for each person which is why I often challenge the posters on these boards who call other pilots who have made/or are making a go of aviation delusional for example. THEY certainly don't seem to think that it is a different set of circumstances for each person. Whomever THEY is has decided that if it didn't work for THEM, then it is a folly for all.

Having spent a career around those very people who miss a majority of birthdays, anniversaries, first steps and even births, I never heard one of them say that they were unhappy when missing those events if they were making (insert some amount of wage here), but they wouldn't mind it if they were making (insert higher wage here). Some stayed for their minimum commitment, others stayed until the civilian job market picked up, others made a 20, 23, 25 or 30+ year career out of it. The ones I remember hated missing Timmy's first baseball game whether they were making E-2 pay or O-6 pay; but they still did it.

USMCFLYR

The ones I remember hated missing Timmy's first baseball game whether they were making E-2 pay or O-6 pay; but they still did it.

They did it at the major airlines during the "golden age" too, and all by their own choice. I remember one MD-11 CA complaining: "This double commute to reserve is killin' me!" I refrained from asking him: "Why did you bid it?", because I knew the answer. :rolleyes:

I think the point is that there needs to be compensation worth not being home, living at the airport, and flying people around(that could be killed)new. Even $28 hr is not good once you factor in those items. Add to the fact that Joe public thinks every pilot works 20hrs a month and does nothing else the rest of the time you get the picture... or at least that's why the bag sticker, "if you can read this I'm not getting paid" exist. People including new pilots truly do not understand what sacrifices this career involves. And that is why forums like APC and others are good to help inform an unknown public/prospective pilot.

But lets back to the topic. If your thinking about a career change set yourself up to return to your old job if you either realize it isn't exactly what you expected or you get a furlough notice. Better yet, retire from your job and join the game with some sort of pension. Sad to say the only real way to survive on first year pay in the US(I'm not talking about other countries since first year pay is actually decent) is to treat it like working at McDee's for a while. Meaning cut your bills, eat ramen and carry no debt. Besides at the rate things are going in a couple years the new retirement age for pilots will be 75 years old and you'll have plenty of time to fly(if your health doesn't give out) even if you retire at 60ish. I wish I was kidding, but I'm not...

I'm not saying there is a break-even point - - I'm asking if there is and what it is for the different people.

I'll wholeheartedly agree with you that it is different for each person which is why I often challenge the posters on these boards who call other pilots who have made/or are making a go of aviation delusional for example. THEY certainly don't seem to think that it is a different set of circumstances for each person. Whomever THEY is has decided that if it didn't work for THEM, then it is a folly for all.

Having spent a career around those very people who miss a majority of birthdays, anniversaries, first steps and even births, I never heard one of them say that they were unhappy when missing those events if they were making (insert some amount of wage here), but they wouldn't mind it if they were making (insert higher wage here). Some stayed for their minimum commitment, others stayed until the civilian job market picked up, others made a 20, 23, 25 or 30+ year career out of it. The ones I remember hated missing Timmy's first baseball game whether they were making E-2 pay or O-6 pay; but they still did it.

USMCFLYR

I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your post. I respect the effort of those who attempt to provide relevant information, but I think that it is misguided and unproductive to assume that an individual's personal conclusions apply to everyone else (YMMV is an underused caveat). I think most people (civilians) would be willing to miss holidays at home and the occasional family event if they made six figures and worked three days a week. Most would probably not be willing to do so if they are working 5-6 days a week and making $22,000. Money is part of the equation but I think quality of life is more important for most people. If I spend four days a week at home, then I don't mind being gone for weekends and holidays. Perhaps more important is a sense of fulfillment gained from working, which is why I think you'll see vastly divergent points-of-view between military personnel and airline pilots. As an E-2 I think I made about $17,000, but I felt like I was doing something important (and I was 19 and single) so I easily saw past the paycheck and the time away from home. Flying around in circles all week does not provide much personal satisfaction or a feeling of purpose, so airline pilots tend to focus on the aspects of the job that are easy to quantify (and complain about).

I've had a long layover...so I came up with another formula enjoy.:)

Often as pilots we factor the hourly rate *1000 to estimate what our annual salary will be. When factoring time spent at work this salary figure yielded an approximate figure of 28/hr.

hourly rate *.32 and you have your "truer" wage/hr.

(89/flight hour*.32 = 28.48)

50*.32 = 16.00/hr

150*.32 = 48.00/hr

Anything less then 23.00/flight hr means you make less then min wage! Interesting that the # conincides with regional FO pay.:cool:

I think you are calling off-duty time "work". How about just using all "on duty" time and forget duty rigs?

I'm paid by salary--this month I'll fly about 20 hours and TAFB is 90 hours, tops, plus about 20 hours in the office. How'd you figure it?

GF

I think you are calling off-duty time "work". How about just using all "on duty" time and forget duty rigs?

I'm paid by salary--this month I'll fly about 20 hours and TAFB is 90 hours, tops, plus about 20 hours in the office. How'd you figure it?

GF

Congrats last month you had the dream job. Next month you are just avg again as I think you are about to go on a 15 day trip.

I am, which may or may not involve much flying. It is all my flying for the month; last such trip was about 12 hours of flying, 6 days of visiting friends, one on a port call. I don't classify time free of duty work.

I'll let you know when I get back.

GF