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View Full Version : More KCM access points coming


EWRflyr
02-16-2012, 06:53 AM
In a pivotal development in its efforts to achieve a risk-based approach to aviation security, the Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l (ALPA), today joined with Airlines for America (formerly the Air Transport Association) to announce (http://webmail.neo.rr.com/do/redirect?url=http%253A%252F%252Fwww.alpa.org%252Fp ortals%252Falpa%252Ffastread%252F2012%252Fdocs%252 FKCMexpansion_2-15-12.pdf) the intention to expand the Known Crewmember program to all Category X and Category 1 airports across the United States.


In 2011, the Known Crewmember program was tested at seven of the nation’s busiest airports, where it was used more than 340,000 times to deliver effective and efficient security screening for professional airline pilots. The Known Crewmember program enables Transportation Security Administration (TSA) officers to positively verify the identity and employment status of airline flight crewmembers. As a result, airline pilots, who already undergo thorough criminal background and employment checks as a part of their employment, are subject to a more efficient security-screening process.


ALPA is working to make the Known Crewmember program available to every U.S. airline pilot, and 28 airlines have already connected to the system. The Regional Airline Association and many of its members also have participated and supported the testing of the system. Both ALPA and A4A have asked TSA to include flight attendants in the system.
For more information, visit the Known Crewmember website: www.knowncrewmember.org (http://webmail.neo.rr.com/do/redirect?url=http%253A%252F%252Fwww.knowncrewmembe r.org).


WHACKMASTER
02-16-2012, 07:03 AM
Flight attendants? Oh geez. Waaaaaay too easy for a "bad guy" to get a FA job and then smuggle a weapon(s) onto an aircraft either for himself or for 10-20 extremists that have coordinated buying tickets on that flt.

What the hell is ALPA and A4A thinking?! There's also an extremely fundamental difference between FAs and us.......we have control of the airplane at all times and can do damage at anytime. They don't and can't. FAs bypassing security? I'm sure all of them presently have nothing but good intentions, but letting them through KCS is asking for a way for terrorists to be able to orchestrate another attack. It's a BAD idea!

groundstop
02-16-2012, 07:17 AM
I'm in favor of FA's having access to it. But I would like to see it limited to FA's with 10 years+ as a flight attendant in the industry.


WHACKMASTER
02-16-2012, 07:20 AM
I'm in favor of FA's having access to it. But I would like to see it limited to FA's with 10 years+ as a flight attendant in the industry.

Interesting food for thought. Perhaps not a bad idea as in theory those 10 yr employees have kind of "proven" that they don't have alterior motives. I'd still be uneasy with it though.

captnmajic
02-16-2012, 07:34 AM
Interesting food for thought. Perhaps not a bad idea as in theory those 10 yr employees have kind of "proven" that they don't have alterior motives. I'd still be uneasy with it though.

Just remember folks, the bad guys are very patient and 10 years is nothing to them.

Rather B Fishin
02-16-2012, 07:41 AM
Flight attendants? Oh geez. Waaaaaay too easy for a "bad guy" to get a FA job and then smuggle a weapon(s) onto an aircraft either for himself or for 10-20 extremists that have coordinated buying tickets on that flt.

What the hell is ALPA and A4A thinking?! There's also an extremely fundamental difference between FAs and us.......we have control of the airplane at all times and can do damage at anytime. They don't and can't. FAs bypassing security? I'm sure all of them presently have nothing but good intentions, but letting them through KCS is asking for a way for terrorists to be able to orchestrate another attack. It's a BAD idea!

FedEx or Egypt Air ring any bells? Pilot's are human too. I guess you never let your FO go to the bathroom and have a FA occupy the cockpit while you're strapped into your seat with an O2 mask around your head? Do you hide the crash ax from them???

Phuz
02-16-2012, 07:44 AM
my guess is ALPA's attempts to get FA's kcm access are superficial at best. The ATA/A4A is likely pushing much harder, because if the whole crew has access then the airline can plan to save 5 minutes and send us out to that super cheap motel 6 thats just about 5 minutes too far away right now..

I also think its a poor idea. Sadly when you hire people at 16-20k/yr starting, quite often you get what you pay for. I know a lot of these folks and have befriended many, but the majority of regional FAs see their job as a job, not a career. Many care, but many do not. You can replace that level of income in fast food, slow food, and retail in a matter of days. IMO "less to lose" means these folks present a higher risk of trying to sneak crap through.

gloopy
02-16-2012, 07:54 AM
Not only less to lose, but what is it, 3 or 4 weeks with no prior experience at anything (could even be someone's first job ever) straight to security bypassing flight deck access? Are we that terrified of being PC that we would not only not be fighting something as asinine as this, but actually going along with it?

Have we become so conditioned with the "me too!" neo-Bolsheviks that now we start shouting "them too!" first? Double you tee eff?

xjtguy
02-16-2012, 09:29 AM
Not only less to lose, but what is it, 3 or 4 weeks with no prior experience at anything (could even be someone's first job ever) straight to security bypassing flight deck access? Are we that terrified of being PC that we would not only not be fighting something as asinine as this, but actually going along with it?

Not that ramp personel have "cockpit access", but there's PLENTY of places they have direct from the curb to the plane access via "secure" doors without being screened.

SIDA badger or not, the requirements for that or an airline background check aren't different.

alfaromeo
02-16-2012, 09:42 AM
FedEx or Egypt Air ring any bells? Pilot's are human too. I guess you never let your FO go to the bathroom and have a FA occupy the cockpit while you're strapped into your seat with an O2 mask around your head? Do you hide the crash ax from them???

FO go to the bathroom? I thought that is why we hang the trash bag from his arm rest.

lolwut
02-16-2012, 09:49 AM
I thought the whole idea behind this was "we are flying the plane anyways, so why do we need to be screened to prevent us from being able to access the cockpit"?

Flight attendants aren't. Sure, they do come up from time to time, but its during times of our choosing and they're not up there alone.

Make them go through security, I'm sick of all this flight attendant "me too!" crap. We are two different work groups with two entirely different sets of experience, backgrounds, and responsibilities.

CRJAV8OR
02-16-2012, 10:19 AM
Flight attendants? Oh geez. Waaaaaay too easy for a "bad guy" to get a FA job and then smuggle a weapon(s) onto an aircraft either for himself or for 10-20 extremists that have coordinated buying tickets on that flt.

What the hell is ALPA and A4A thinking?! There's also an extremely fundamental difference between FAs and us.......we have control of the airplane at all times and can do damage at anytime. They don't and can't. FAs bypassing security? I'm sure all of them presently have nothing but good intentions, but letting them through KCS is asking for a way for terrorists to be able to orchestrate another attack. It's a BAD idea!
It is much easier to get any number of airport jobs that allow access to the secured area through non screened doors or other access points.

Fishfreighter
02-16-2012, 10:29 AM
Are the F/As listed in CASS?

flyou11
02-16-2012, 10:49 AM
This is great news! I can't wait. But really it doesn't effect me bcs my awesome company won't join the program. O'well.

I do agree, I don't like the "include the FA". We are two different "jobs". Also, where is their union in wanting/spending money on this? My captain and I were talking last week. He said he has noticed some FA beginning to think the are equal or greater than the us, or even the Captain. They don't understand the chain of command and the fact the entire plane is under the command/the responsibility of the captain. He said he has seen FA come up and start twisting the temperature knobs in the flight deck. Even with CRM being a big deal today, I always respect the Captain as being in charge and not me. The FA should do the same, if not even more. I have even heard one new FA say she should have gone the extra 3 weeks in training to become a pilot. Some of them just don't get it. (I say this however, 90% of the FA I fly with are awesome, respectable individuals).


Are the F/As listed in CASS? Are the F/As listed in CASS?


No. Unless this was a rhetorical question. If so then pretend I didn't say anything.

FO go to the bathroom? I thought that is why we hang the trash bag from his arm rest.

Wow, I don't know why I never though about this, but the trash is always on my side. This has to be modern day hazing. haha

iaflyer
02-16-2012, 11:32 AM
Are the F/As listed in CASS?No, and that's partly a the sticking point. They would have to go through all the steps for that. Also, ALPA and ATA are jointly helping pay for Known Crewmember if I remember. Wonder if AFA, etc will help out.

Personally, I think the "include FAs in KC" line is window dressing. I don't know about other carriers, but at Delta the FAs push for everything the pilots having, using the line, "well, we can always vote in a union who will get what we want".

gloopy
02-16-2012, 12:32 PM
Not that ramp personel have "cockpit access", but there's PLENTY of places they have direct from the curb to the plane access via "secure" doors without being screened.

SIDA badger or not, the requirements for that or an airline background check aren't different.

So we should extend that airtight failsafe to non pilot flight crewmembers with flight deck access?

That's like us saying "well, I'm not really watching my altitude, so that means I don't have to watch my airspeed either".

More Bacon
02-16-2012, 01:27 PM
Both ALPA and A4A have asked TSA to include flight attendants in the system.

Our dues money at work. Basically, we are paying ALPA to improve the FAs' QOL.

Dear ALPA: You've got enough on your plate to take care of on OUR behalf. How about you spend our dues money...on US. Not the FAs.

More Bacon
02-16-2012, 01:31 PM
at Delta the FAs push for everything the pilots having, using the line, "well, we can always vote in a union who will get what we want".

That's a Delta problem, not an ALPA problem. ALPA should know not to use a single ounce of influence/negotiating capital; or spend a solitary cent of our dues money paying someone to type "ALPA wants FAs to get KCA."

UNACCEPTABLE.

Why do we put up with this nonsense from "our" bargaining agent?

lolwut
02-16-2012, 01:43 PM
I'm unsure about this whole thing. It sounds nice, but on the other hand... this is how I usually approach airport security checkpoints.

http://www.explosm.net/db/files/Comics/Rob/airport-security.png

shfo
02-16-2012, 08:19 PM
Reason not to let them through KCM.

Flight Attendant Steals a Man's Identity to Land Job and Fly Around the World - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/US/flight-attendant-steals-mans-identity-land-job-fly/story?id=13875571)

EWRflyr
02-17-2012, 06:26 AM
ALPA is not spending money on FAs....yet. ALPA only has stated that FAs should be part of this program. It's up to the TSA, A4A and whoever the technology company is to implement that database...and then get the FA unions to share in the costs just like we are already doing so we DON'T spend money on the FAs.

In regards to the comment that FAs shouldn't be allowed to do this because it would be easy for terrorists to become FAs:

#1. They go through the same background checks we do for employment

#2. What about this trusted traveler program? The TSA and the airlines want expedited screening for those frequent fliers willing to submit to a background check. Is this any different? I mean a terrorist could really lay low and then submit to this program. Does that concern you? (Personally this has been my concern.)

More Bacon
02-17-2012, 04:34 PM
ALPA is not spending money on FAs....yet. ALPA only has stated that FAs should be part of this program.

ALPA is most certainly spending money on it. Folks paid by our dues money are spending time (on our dime) considering and advocating to get KCM for FAs.

gloopy
02-18-2012, 12:43 AM
ALPA is not spending money on FAs....yet. ALPA only has stated that FAs should be part of this program. It's up to the TSA, A4A and whoever the technology company is to implement that database...and then get the FA unions to share in the costs just like we are already doing so we DON'T spend money on the FAs.

In regards to the comment that FAs shouldn't be allowed to do this because it would be easy for terrorists to become FAs:

#1. They go through the same background checks we do for employment

#2. What about this trusted traveler program? The TSA and the airlines want expedited screening for those frequent fliers willing to submit to a background check. Is this any different? I mean a terrorist could really lay low and then submit to this program. Does that concern you? (Personally this has been my concern.)

Its VERY different. Expedited means quicker, not swipe and go. And trusted travelers don't have flight deck access. Ever. Horrible idea. Off the street and a month later security free access on planes and in the flight deck just because they pass a check is the dumbest idea in aviation history.

Rather B Fishin
02-18-2012, 01:01 AM
Its VERY different. Expedited means quicker, not swipe and go. And trusted travelers don't have flight deck access. Ever. Horrible idea. Off the street and a month later security free access on planes and in the flight deck just because they pass a check is the dumbest idea in aviation history.

Once again, they already have flight deck access. What do they need to "hide" to get it? Don't care how big you are. A well placed elbow will do a good enough job.

rightside02
02-18-2012, 06:22 AM
Does anyone have a rough idea on how much this program cost for an airline ? My airline has a base where they have this currently established and yet we don't have it . I was just thinking maybe it was a cost issue ?

Thanks

viking767
02-18-2012, 06:44 AM
Does anyone have a rough idea on how much this program cost for an airline ? My airline has a base where they have this currently established and yet we don't have it . I was just thinking maybe it was a cost issue ?

Thanks

I was under the impression that CASS was the requirement. Is there more?

flyou11
02-18-2012, 06:58 AM
I was under the impression that CASS was the requirement. Is there more?


The older version of the KCM (forgot its name) that is in Pittsburgh and a few other places uses CASS. The KCM system is linked directly to the companie's employee database.

gloopy
02-18-2012, 01:29 PM
Once again, they already have flight deck access. What do they need to "hide" to get it? Don't care how big you are. A well placed elbow will do a good enough job.

There are things far more effective than an elbow someone with no screening could bring along. And the vast majority of people are nowhere near martial arts experts and skilled elbow throwers. But you knew that. You dating an FA or something?

Most wouldn't be a problem of course. I know many FA's and for the most part they are good people. But this isn't about how much we love and respect them and think of them as equal human beings getting an equitable perk just because another work group has it. Granting screening free access to hundreds of thousands in a profession that's 3 weeks from off the street to flight deck access is the worst idea possible.

We've seen the kinds of smuggling operations other lower skilled work groups with this level of oversight have done. Pretty scary stuff. So far it hasn't been worse. So far. So now let's let hundreds of thousands more do it...with flight deck access too? Just to prove how "fair" we are?

buddies8
02-18-2012, 02:41 PM
Who cares about KCM, they now have KPA (known Passeneger Access) did you miss that. Now I can not wait for this to fail and then as always the HSA/TSA will blanket deny all access including KCM. Want to bet.

BlueMoon
02-18-2012, 03:14 PM
Who cares about KCM, they now have KPA (known Passeneger Access) did you miss that. Now I can not wait for this to fail and then as always the HSA/TSA will blanket deny all access including KCM. Want to bet.

KPA still get xrayed, just don't have to remove shoes or do the body scanner. Still subject to random testing.

Hell the FA's have access to corkscrews, forks, and other serving utensils...those can do plenty of damage.

I just don't want my union wasting my dues on them. If they have some much cash on hand that they can use it to bargain and provide things for non-members, give us a refund and lower the percentage of dues withheld.

I also see it as a possible smuggling opportunity. The pay for FA's is aberrant and some may be susceptible to the thought of trying to make a few extra duckets. Or the local drug ring finds out about this and then sends a few folks to get jobs at airlines and 4 weeks later you have mules.

gloopy
02-18-2012, 07:47 PM
the local drug ring finds out about this and then sends a few folks to get jobs at airlines and 4 weeks later you have mules.

And that's the best case scenario for someone with bad intentions...that they just want to use the mules for drugs. Mules with flight deck access no less.

Officially the worst idea of the year.