Airline Pilot Forums

I keep on hearing conflicting things
I hear that United has so many furloughs left but then I hear that CAL has growth for next year and a ton of retirements coming up. I also hear that furlough acceptance rate is only about 1 for every 6.

Who will do the actual hiring? Will it still be on Airline apps?

I keep on hearing conflicting things
I hear that United has so many furloughs left but then I hear that CAL has growth for next year and a ton of retirements coming up. I also hear that furlough acceptance rate is only about 1 for every 6.

Who will do the actual hiring? Will it still be on Airline apps?


Don't hold your breath on any "hiring"...
1-6 is correct but that is only until the other 5-6 either need a job or things get better. Meaning, UAL actually recalls to UAL jobs or a JCBA gets done !

If any off the street hiring is done it will be on CAL side.

I keep on hearing conflicting things
I hear that United has so many furloughs left but then I hear that CAL has growth for next year and a ton of retirements coming up. I also hear that furlough acceptance rate is only about 1 for every 6.

Who will do the actual hiring? Will it still be on Airline apps?

It seems likely that the Continental side will need to hire off the street this fall based on the number of vacancies in the latest system bid. The acceptance rate is about 1 to 6 among the UAL pilots being offered the Continental job. They will likely have gone through the entire list by early fall.

Keep in mind that this senario would change if the company reached a JCBA with the pilot group(I hear rumors that the pace of negotiations is picking up and others saying don't plan of seeing a contract for years, so who knows). The acceptance rate for an actual recall to UAL will be much higher, and the company will have to offer recalls as opposed to hiring once the operation is combined.

Also be aware that if you are picked up as a new hire in the fall, you will have the UAL furloughees ahead of you on the combined senority list, and they have 10 yr recall rights from the date of furlough. You could be close to the bottom for a while as they work their way back in.

At this point in time, there's a bit less than 300 LUAL furloughees that will have to be offered jobs at LCAL. The junior LUAL furloughee who accepts should be in class no later than the end of October.

LCAL is attending a job fair in Vegas in April. I recommend that you either go there or make sure that someone can drop off your resume at the job fair. FltOps.com: Pilot Job Fairs (http://www.fltops.com/jobs/)

Assuming no new contract anytime soon (a new contract might cause a bunch of bypassing furloughees to return), the LCAL side should have off the street hires by the beginning of November.

LUAL has had near zero retirements since age 65 went into effect ... I've watched the monthly numbers and it's averaged a bit more than 1 retirement per month. So when age 65 retirements kick in, the LUAL side should see 20-25 retirements per month indefinitely. For LCAL, my understanding is that the numbers are slightly less but similar.

At this point, I'd say that the combined United is way behind the power curve on hiring and it'll probably take them quite a while before they can drop hiring down to 50/month.
If you get hired in the next year or so, you're almost certain to have a MUCH better career than me (furloughed 8 out of 12 yrs). Barring something extraordinary, you probably wouldn't ever see a furlough.

I keep on hearing conflicting things
I hear that United has so many furloughs left but then I hear that CAL has growth for next year and a ton of retirements coming up. I also hear that furlough acceptance rate is only about 1 for every 6.

Who will do the actual hiring? Will it still be on Airline apps?

All hiring will be done by folks from CAL. If you want me to walk in your resume, I accept paypal. :D

"At this point in time, there's a bit less than 300 LUAL furloughees that will have to be offered jobs at LCAL. The junior LUAL furloughee who accepts should be in class no later than the end of October."

Probably closer to 400 uncalled UAL furloughees. I am about 360 'ish, and there WERE about 45 "below" me...

Also be aware that if you are picked up as a new hire in the fall, you will have the UAL furloughees ahead of you on the combined senority list, and they have 10 yr recall rights from the date of furlough. Pinnacle, I wouldn't let this dissuade you. First, there will be about 500 retirements/yr. at UAL. Second, the improvement in staffing to the CAL side with a JCBA alone will be worth hundreds of jobs. Third, many of those who bypassed aren't coming back.

All hiring will be done by folks from CAL. If you want me to walk in your resume, I accept paypal. :D

If LCAL starts hiring while we at LUAL still have guys on furlough that WILL be the event that breaks the camels back.

What is "enough" for you guys? :mad:

"At this point in time, there's a bit less than 300 LUAL furloughees that will have to be offered jobs at LCAL. The junior LUAL furloughee who accepts should be in class no later than the end of October."

Probably closer to 400 uncalled UAL furloughees. I am about 360 'ish, and there WERE about 45 "below" me...

DOH! I should have verified remaining furloughees prior to posting. My bad.

If LCAL starts hiring while we at LUAL still have guys on furlough that WILL be the event that breaks the camels back.

What is "enough" for you guys? :mad:Hoss, obviously LCAL will not hire off the street until every UAL furlough has been called and given a chance to come to LCAL. There's a lot to be teed off about around here, but I fail to see why you're seeing this as the proverbial last straw.

If LCAL starts hiring while we at LUAL still have guys on furlough that WILL be the event that breaks the camels back.

What is "enough" for you guys? :mad:

Out of curiosity, until a JCBA is reached and there are two seperate lists, what would your ideal approach to staffing be if all LUAL guys decline a CAL position and positions are needed to be filled? The same thing has been happening at US Airways. Hiring out East while West still has guys on the street refusing to take slots out East.

If LCAL starts hiring while we at LUAL still have guys on furlough that WILL be the event that breaks the camels back.

What is "enough" for you guys? :mad:
Posted it once......Post it again.........

What's L-CAL's Captain "V" supposed to do????

IF L-CAL goes ALL the way through L-UA's Furlough List & offers every person on that list a pilot position at L-CAL per the guidelines, what is L-CAL supposed to do IF further staffing is required later this year? You can fully expect them (Abbott) to hire off the street. Questions?

Stating the obvious.....No one is holding a gun to anyone's head as far as accepting/declining the L-CAL Pilot Position. The L-CAL employment offers have NO bearing on the Furloughee's status at L-UA. The L-CAL employment offer is 100% their choice to take it, or leave it.

To be perfectly clear, and not be second guessed......WE need(ed) a JCBA yesterday.

Hoss, obviously LCAL will not hire off the street until every UAL furlough has been called and given a chance to come to LCAL. There's a lot to be teed off about around here, but I fail to see why you're seeing this as the proverbial last straw.

lets not be confused with being stuffed on the bottom of the list at LCAL with a recall. What is happening at LCAL is also known as a staple. You don't see a problem with that?

There is no EARTHLY reason that LCAL is growing and LUAL is shrinking both should be growing/recalling /hiring.

Can you not see what's happening here?

This is rapidly becoming CAL/EAL round two and the same scab's are still at CAL and apparently they're happy to pull a repeat. Everything is hunky dory over LCAL while here at LUAL I've been surplussed, stuffed back into the right seat on reserve and can hardly pay my bills because we can't break guarantee there isn't enough flying.

Meanwhile back at the CAL ranch guys are flying their butts off and they are short of pilots and needing to hire? REALLY something doesn't smell fishy to you?

Thanks for the info

"This is rapidly becoming CAL/EAL round two and the same scab's are still at CAL and apparently they're happy to pull a repeat. Everything is hunky dory over LCAL while here at LUAL I've been surplussed, stuffed back into the right seat on reserve and can hardly pay my bills because we can't break guarantee there isn't enough flying.

Meanwhile back at the CAL ranch guys are flying their butts off and they are short of pilots and needing to hire? REALLY something doesn't smell fishy to you?

UFB!! "

UAL will recall in Sept.
If you can't pay your bills then that's a spending problem, not an income problem.

lets not be confused with being stuffed on the bottom of the list at LCAL with a recall. What is happening at LCAL is also known as a staple. You don't see a problem with that?

There is no EARTHLY reason that LCAL is growing and LUAL is shrinking both should be growing/recalling /hiring.

Can you not see what's happening here?

This is rapidly becoming CAL/EAL round two and the same scab's are still at CAL and apparently they're happy to pull a repeat. Everything is hunky dory over LCAL while here at LUAL I've been surplussed, stuffed back into the right seat on reserve and can hardly pay my bills because we can't break guarantee there isn't enough flying.

Meanwhile back at the CAL ranch guys are flying their butts off and they are short of pilots and needing to hire? REALLY something doesn't smell fishy to you?

UFB!!

The reason why we need a JCBA and ISL YESTERDAY- for EVERYBODY involved...

lets not be confused with being stuffed on the bottom of the list at LCAL with a recall. What is happening at LCAL is also known as a staple. You don't see a problem with that?

There is no EARTHLY reason that LCAL is growing and LUAL is shrinking both should be growing/recalling /hiring.

Can you not see what's happening here?

This is rapidly becoming CAL/EAL round two and the same scab's are still at CAL and apparently they're happy to pull a repeat. Everything is hunky dory over LCAL while here at LUAL I've been surplussed, stuffed back into the right seat on reserve and can hardly pay my bills because we can't break guarantee there isn't enough flying.

Meanwhile back at the CAL ranch guys are flying their butts off and they are short of pilots and needing to hire? REALLY something doesn't smell fishy to you?

UFB!!

No disrespect intended, but this is basically a CAL forum. Very few mainline UAL pilots check-in here. If I were you, I wouldn't expect any sympathy.

No disrespect intended, but this is basically a CAL forum. Very few mainline UAL pilots check-in here. If I were you, I wouldn't expect any sympathy.

??????????:confused:

Also be aware that if you are picked up as a new hire in the fall, you will have the UAL furloughees ahead of you on the combined seniority list, and they have 10 yr recall rights from the date of furlough. You could be close to the bottom for a while as they work their way back in.


And the first out the door when these clowns decide they need to park some jets and shrink the airline again, be careful what you ask for....

No disrespect intended, but this is basically a CAL forum. Very few mainline UAL pilots check-in here. If I were you, I wouldn't expect any sympathy.

I'm not looking for any sympathy. I am just sick and tired of this whole situation and vast and growing inequities going on here and was venting.

My apologies for that whole post it was out of line and out of character for me.

The part about the staple however is 100% correct. Its a lousy rotten deal made to look like a measure of good faith.

If LCAL is hiring LUAL should be too there is NO REASON TO SHRINK one side and grow the other. This is absolutely a power play by our beloved co-worker. We could so easily be shifting flying around to spread the load evenly. Instead one side is critically short of plots and the other side is overstaffed!?!

GIVE ME A BREAK!!

JCBA/ISL is the answer. Will it ever happen?

JCBA/ISL is the answer. Will it ever happen?

I expect a completed JCBA (ratified by the membership) prior to next summer. ISL before 2014 - it will go to binding arbitration so that'll probably take ~6 months.
I consider those to be conservative targets; I think we'll see management start ramping up negotiations this summer.

Just curious... When United decides to hire off the street again, does anyone have an idea of what the min would be? I tried looking around APC and searching for posts but could not find their latest (or Continental's for that matter) minimums.

Specifically, I'm curious to know if anyone has an idea whether Turbine PIC will be a requirement or if they will follow suit with Delta?

I'm not looking for any sympathy. I am just sick and tired of this whole situation and vast and growing inequities going on here and was venting.

My apologies for that whole post it was out of line and out of character for me.

The part about the staple however is 100% correct. Its a lousy rotten deal made to look like a measure of good faith.

If LCAL is hiring LUAL should be too there is NO REASON TO SHRINK one side and grow the other. This is absolutely a power play by our beloved co-worker. We could so easily be shifting flying around to spread the load evenly. Instead one side is critically short of plots and the other side is overstaffed!?!

GIVE ME A BREAK!!

JCBA/ISL is the answer. Will it ever happen?

You are correct JCBA/ISL will fix all the perceived inequities. The guys on this forum trying make it appear like massive expansion is happening are wrong. If CAL is hiring, it was because it was short staffed and not expansion. "Also realize that the flying and aircraft types used in different cities is shifting but the block hour ratio will remain the same because of this agreement(revised TPA) . In other words CAL is not picking up extra flying at our(UAL) expense."
If you are a UAL guy this is the worst place to get any accurate information. Notice the same people posting day after day. Go to a LEC meeting or talk to your elected leaders.

I expect a completed JCBA (ratified by the membership) prior to next summer. ISL before 2014 - it will go to binding arbitration so that'll probably take ~6 months.
I consider those to be conservative targets; I think we'll see management start ramping up negotiations this summer.

Based on what?

I appreciate your input but this is nothing more than a guess.

If you are a UAL guy this is the worst place to get any accurate information. Notice the same people posting day after day. Go to a LEC meeting or talk to your elected leaders.

The same LEC that assured me we would have contract by October 2011?

I'm headed to the LEC meeting this morning. I am not alone in my anger towards the way this whole thing is starting to go down.

I'm not looking for any sympathy. I am just sick and tired of this whole situation and vast and growing inequities going on here and was venting.

My apologies for that whole post it was out of line and out of character for me.

The part about the staple however is 100% correct. Its a lousy rotten deal made to look like a measure of good faith.

If LCAL is hiring LUAL should be too there is NO REASON TO SHRINK one side and grow the other. This is absolutely a power play by our beloved co-worker. We could so easily be shifting flying around to spread the load evenly. Instead one side is critically short of plots and the other side is overstaffed!?!

GIVE ME A BREAK!!

JCBA/ISL is the answer. Will it ever happen?

Hoss, the growing and shrinking was happening years Before the merger and continues because CAL has orders and new routes etc.. Until we get a combined list and JCBA, the company cannot spread the flying evenly amongst the two subsidiary. Our current contract will not allow them but so much flexibility with the block hour ratios. As far as staple,UA furloughed guys with recall rights to UA coming to L-CAL, I don't understand your point? Place them ahead of CAL guys on property. If those guys go back to L-UA, assuming a recall...where will most involuntary furloughs go...bottom of your list....as it should be. Why the difference?

You are absolutely correct on JCBA and ISL...as the real fix but of course, not everybody will be happy with that either

I'm not looking for any sympathy. I am just sick and tired of this whole situation and vast and growing inequities going on here and was venting.

My apologies for that whole post it was out of line and out of character for me.

The part about the staple however is 100% correct. Its a lousy rotten deal made to look like a measure of good faith.

If LCAL is hiring LUAL should be too there is NO REASON TO SHRINK one side and grow the other. This is absolutely a power play by our beloved co-worker. We could so easily be shifting flying around to spread the load evenly. Instead one side is critically short of plots and the other side is overstaffed!?!

GIVE ME A BREAK!!

JCBA/ISL is the answer. Will it ever happen?Hoss, things on the LCAL side over the past decade or so haven't been good, but what you guys have been through at LUAL is the absolute pits. I get that. However, I believe this stems back to three things: aircraft the CAL side had on order, the higher productivity (read lower total cost) of the CAL contract, and perhaps most importantly, the scope protections in the respective contracts. Believe it or not, I really do sympathize with you, but as you know, this probably won't end until there's a JCBA.

Based on what?

I appreciate your input but this is nothing more than a guess.

LOL! Two months ago, Contrail67 called me an 'eeyore' because I didn't expect a JCBA by this October. Are you hinting that I've got rose colored glasses on because I expect a JCBA prior to summer 2013?

But to the crux of your question:
Last year, it became clear that LUAL and LCAL IT integration was going to take longer than expected - completion sometime around fall 2012. Because there would be no/very little pilot synergies until after IT integration, there was no financial incentive for management to sign a JCBA prior to IT integration.
The second issue beyond IT integration is age 65 retirements. It would be in management's best interest to have a JCBA prior to the retirement cycle restarting. Retirements will create utilization issues that can be reduced with a JCBA.
Management is now getting more serious about negotiations, likely targeting late fall for a TA. I expect the first TA to be voted down so tack on another 3 months or so before TA2. I'd hope that issues are worked out with TA2 but I've padded my guesstimate in case we have the second TA voted down.

I've had the same expectation for a JCBA for a long time: very late 2012 to summer 2013. Some are going to view my range as overly negative; others will view it as overly optimistic.
My expectation is based on looking at this issue from management's point of view. Management isn't going to hurry to sign a pilot contract that increases their costs if there are no synergies created. Once there's an incentive to reduce overall cost, they'll get serious about a JCBA. Based on the number of updates on unitednegotiations.com, it looks like management is starting to get interested in a ratified JCBA.

The above is just my opinion.

One motivation for management to get things done sooner rather than later is if they go to Wall St with hat in hand. Specifically, a huge aircraft order and perhaps bidding for AA assets will require funding and I'm sure the boys will require UAL to get the pilot's contract done before any handout.

Just curious... When United decides to hire off the street again, does anyone have an idea of what the min would be? I tried looking around APC and searching for posts but could not find their latest (or Continental's for that matter) minimums.

Specifically, I'm curious to know if anyone has an idea whether Turbine PIC will be a requirement or if they will follow suit with Delta?

It won't really matter what they say their mins are. It'll be whats competitive with the market for legacy airline jobs.

Even if they say their minimums are 250TT and a commercial multi.... expect something along the lines of 4000+ TT, 1500+ Jet PIC, a 4 year degree, and something that makes you "special" - a good LOR or two, check airman/instructor/chief pilot experience, etc to be whats required to get considered for an interview.

Once hiring starts to ramp up at UA and the other majors with retirements starting, the minimums will probably slowly go down to match the available candidates. Though, I'd expect it to be quite a while for a run of the mill non-tpic holder to get looked at by a major. Just too many people that have that right now that you'd be competing with, unless theres something else stellar and unique on your resume.

It won't really matter what they say their mins are. It'll be whats competitive with the market for legacy airline jobs.

Even if they say their minimums are 250TT and a commercial multi.... expect something along the lines of 4000+ TT, 1500+ Jet PIC, a 4 year degree, and something that makes you "special" - a good LOR or two, check airman/instructor/chief pilot experience, etc to be whats required to get considered for an interview.

Once hiring starts to ramp up at UA and the other majors with retirements starting, the minimums will probably slowly go down to match the available candidates. Though, I'd expect it to be quite a while for a run of the mill non-tpic holder to get looked at by a major. Just too many people that have that right now that you'd be competing with, unless theres something else stellar and unique on your resume.

So there just looking for chief pilot and lca for the hiring? Come on give me a break.

So there just looking for chief pilot and lca for the hiring? Come on give me a break.

What he meant to say was... "I have no clue who the new United will take, but here is my best assumption..." I know that DL and US have hired zero TPIC time guys, which leads me to believe anyone that meets the bare minimums that United posts has a shot. I dont think anyone would be shocked if LOR's are critical no matter what your times are.

Just a note to the hiring assumptions here. Most of the chiefs and LCAs are career regional guys not looking to move on. That has been my experience for the majority.

What he meant to say was... "I have no clue who the new United will take, but here is my best assumption..." I know that DL and US have hired zero TPIC time guys, which leads me to believe anyone that meets the bare minimums that United posts has a shot. I dont think anyone would be shocked if LOR's are critical no matter what your times are.

With that said, guys/gals throw your stuff in, don't listen to folks that say you won't get hired for this reason or that, and have the confidence that when the call comes you stand just as much of a chance to get that job as anyone else in your interview group. Just remember there are alot of qualified 10,000 hour regional folks out there but that does not mean someone with less time won't get a look.

Hoss, the growing and shrinking was happening years Before the merger and continues because CAL has orders and new routes etc.. Until we get a combined list and JCBA, the company cannot spread the flying evenly amongst the two subsidiary. Our current contract will not allow them but so much flexibility with the block hour ratios. As far as staple,UA furloughed guys with recall rights to UA coming to L-CAL, I don't understand your point? Place them ahead of CAL guys on property. If those guys go back to L-UA, assuming a recall...where will most involuntary furloughs go...bottom of your list....as it should be. Why the difference?

You are absolutely correct on JCBA and ISL...as the real fix but of course, not everybody will be happy with that either

Slammer,

Your post is a little bit of a shotgun, but I'll try to respond. As a Vol Furlough, if I had accepted a job offer at CAL, given both are ALPA, yes, I'd expect my DOH and longevity regarding all aspects of the offer. Simple pay adjustment doesn't truly reflect that seniority at UAL. Seniority should be much more than about pay. Not to degrade the pay of junior but rather to enhance the good things. You think it's okay for me to suck the bottom of the schedule when I've given way more to UCH than you probably have. Accept treatment as a NH when I was flying airplanes before your youngest FO was born. Give me a serious break.

As to invol UAL furloughs, the ISL will decide, but they've given way more than your most junior pilot has ever envisioned.

CAL guys have no idea really what UAL folks have been through. We obviously haven't lived your life either. Having said that, this is one company with regards to the operation even though the entities are divided.

Getting 12 year pay to pull gear for some "kid" by taking a CAL job offer isn't in my personal horizon. And, I left knowing the merger was going to happen by the obvious "right sizing" of the airline by parking UAL aircraft to ensure not having to deal with divesting assets to secure DOJ approval.

In a perfect world, we'd have a real union and a national seniority list. But, making the folks that took the "job offer" which should never be confused with a recall, start at the bottom of your list at what was UAL and now UCH subsidiary is wrong. Most of them have paid their "dues" well over the required amount.

No more wrong than any whipsaw action taken by the company regarding PS or any other issue in the TPA progression.

You see. Wrong is wrong. I left for many reasons. It doesn't mean I don't reserve my right to return.....on my terms. So while you see some pilot taking a position offered under the TPA as a gift to that individual, I see it as an insult given the conditions of the offer......and that pilot that takes said position is giving their service generating revenue to the new combined corporate entity. And, taking it up the arse at the same time.

So, in summary, as a Vol Furlough, I will not go to the bottom of UAL if recalled, nor to the bottom of the ISL whenever that comes. I will also never accept a job on the CAL side given your POS contract that has draconian work rules and to sit there watching you pontificate on issue x,y, or z, from your position of perceived dominance. I'll come back to my seniority number. It is mine and will equate to whatever the arbitration board decides after the JCBA is inked and the obvious ISL arbitration that comes after makes its final decision.

Frats,
Lee

So there just looking for chief pilot and lca for the hiring? Come on give me a break.

Nah what I'm saying is at the beginning of hiring, you're going to have to have all the stuff on your resume, plus something that makes you stand out... because there are lots of people that have all the flight time they could ever need.

Something that makes you stand out would be being a check airman, being a chief pilot, having a good letter of recommendation or two, having a masters' degree, etc. Anything that sets you apart from the other thousands of well qualified and experienced RJ captains out there that have been waiting years to apply.

Lee,

You are The Man... :cool:

Never mind......

Slammer,

You see. Wrong is wrong. I left for many reasons. It doesn't mean I don't reserve my right to return.....on my terms. So while you see some pilot taking a position offered under the TPA as a gift to that individual, I see it as an insult given the conditions of the offer......and that pilot that takes said position is giving their service generating revenue to the new combined corporate entity. And, taking it up the arse at the same time.

So, in summary, as a Vol Furlough, I will not go to the bottom of UAL if recalled, nor to the bottom of the ISL whenever that comes. I will also never accept a job on the CAL side given your POS contract that has draconian work rules and to sit there watching you pontificate on issue x,y, or z, from your position of perceived dominance. I'll come back to my seniority number. It is mine and will equate to whatever the arbitration board decides after the JCBA is inked and the obvious ISL arbitration that comes after makes its final decision.


Lee,

I certainly respect your views, and your seniority in this profession. I hope though that you and those holding similar views will not frown upon those of us who willingly, voluntarily, and dare I say in many cases cheerfully - accept an opportunity at sCAL to resume a flying career that has seen more than one serious interruption over the past 10+ years.

No, it is not a "gift". It is an opportunity. Like any career or business opportunity, all parties are wise to consider the relative benefits and costs. In this case, UCH's agreement to at least acknowledge my pay longevity, and honor my DOH relative to other sUAL pilots on their list is in my view reasonable, and enough for the time being. This serves MY interests, and in my belief does not detract from my brother and sister Legacy United pilot's careers or purposes.

I see this as an interim step toward restoration of my long term career path at a post-ISL United (Operated by Continental Airlines :eek: ) under an industry leading contract. If this position at sCAL were the end of the line, then yes, I would see this as a major and insulting bummer. However I feel that the greater likelihood is that a JCBA+SLI will get done eventually. In the meantime, I'd like a paycheck please.

A couple of the posts in this thread seem to tread awfully close to suggesting that those who accept these positions at sCAL as a result of the TPA are undermining JCBA efforts, the career generally, or as you suggest - have a penchant for sodomization. I respectfully disagree.

Cheers,

Taco
2172/1437

Slammer,

Your post is a little bit of a shotgun, but I'll try to respond. As a Vol Furlough, if I had accepted a job offer at CAL, given both are ALPA, yes, I'd expect my DOH and longevity regarding all aspects of the offer. Simple pay adjustment doesn't truly reflect that seniority at UAL. Seniority should be much more than about pay. Not to degrade the pay of junior but rather to enhance the good things. You think it's okay for me to suck the bottom of the schedule when I've given way more to UCH than you probably have. Accept treatment as a NH when I was flying airplanes before your youngest FO was born. Give me a serious break.

As to invol UAL furloughs, the ISL will decide, but they've given way more than your most junior pilot has ever envisioned.

CAL guys have no idea really what UAL folks have been through. We obviously haven't lived your life either. Having said that, this is one company with regards to the operation even though the entities are divided.

Getting 12 year pay to pull gear for some "kid" by taking a CAL job offer isn't in my personal horizon. And, I left knowing the merger was going to happen by the obvious "right sizing" of the airline by parking UAL aircraft to ensure not having to deal with divesting assets to secure DOJ approval.

In a perfect world, we'd have a real union and a national seniority list. But, making the folks that took the "job offer" which should never be confused with a recall, start at the bottom of your list at what was UAL and now UCH subsidiary is wrong. Most of them have paid their "dues" well over the required amount.

No more wrong than any whipsaw action taken by the company regarding PS or any other issue in the TPA progression.

You see. Wrong is wrong. I left for many reasons. It doesn't mean I don't reserve my right to return.....on my terms. So while you see some pilot taking a position offered under the TPA as a gift to that individual, I see it as an insult given the conditions of the offer......and that pilot that takes said position is giving their service generating revenue to the new combined corporate entity. And, taking it up the arse at the same time.

So, in summary, as a Vol Furlough, I will not go to the bottom of UAL if recalled, nor to the bottom of the ISL whenever that comes. I will also never accept a job on the CAL side given your POS contract that has draconian work rules and to sit there watching you pontificate on issue x,y, or z, from your position of perceived dominance. I'll come back to my seniority number. It is mine and will equate to whatever the arbitration board decides after the JCBA is inked and the obvious ISL arbitration that comes after makes its final decision.

Frats,
Lee


Lee,

You forget that at least 50 percent of this merger includes L-CAL, its pilots and their seniority and CBA. What you did or flew or experienced, has no bearing on the L-CAL seniority list and vice versa wrt to L-UA. BTW, the agreement to offer to UA furloughs was agreed upon, to include seniority and pay by both MECs. FWIW..UA furloughs were given more benefits, than our own CAL guys that were recalled. You have a 747 and Bus Captain, pulling gear and getting paid at their last rate ( good for them) but to think a new hire to L-CAL should bypass current seniority system is ridiculous. My statement ref where an involuntary furlough would be placed if recalled to L-UA...the bottom, below active guys already on property, so why would he expect to go ahead of line holders, because of time at another carrier. Not sure why your MEC did not address the voluntary furlough issue, but suspect they knew it would be DOA with the CAL MEC and pilot group. we are operationally and legally separate pilot groups... which effectively was the situation when CAL/UA and ALPA agreed to hiring UA furloughs. As you stated, there is no national seniority list, so where is the precedence for such an aberration of seniority for those active on a list? Has L-UA in its history, ever hired furloughs from other carriers and placed them ahead of active pilots? Other airlines? The JCBA and ISL is the process and road ahead... the DOH concept as you allude too above, as a cure to all that endured, will not be the principle method if we are ever going to,integrate. As you know,.Timing is everything. In the 90s,UA was the place, and CAL just the opposite.... UA was growing, CAL barely kept head above the water. You were bringing on aircraft and hiring, CAL,not so much . Post 9/11 CAL hired and new orders for the past 7 years...UA has not. Not meant to slam, just a fact, Both companies have been on the bottom.... If the merger had happened in the 90s, with the scenario,mentioned above,and furloughed CAL guys offered a job to UA, i doubt very seriously you or MEC would support your present position of leapfrogging active pilots...because as you stated wrong is wrong. Don't assume guys at CAL have not suffered...multiple BKs, furloughs and 9/11...just like most of the industry and UA....some were TWA, AMR, and furloughed UA guys that got hired in the last decade...

Expect furloughed pilots to be recalled back to the UAL (L) side of the house for September.

1. Cal is 50% of the merger? Surely by mere numbers of pilots and planes u jest.
2. Ual has some heroes, but jesus christ, the cal heroes faaaarrrrr outnumber the ual heroes. I dont know about cal pilots but i want to get paid a higher wage AND have a quality of life- not sacrificing one for the other
3. Are we still calling it a merger of equals or did ual buy cal for $23/share or something like that
4. Goin to cal isnt a recall , its a new hire opportunity with possible a higher payrate- nothing more.
5. Just bc i was furloughed at ual, u honestly think i didnt have a better career progression than a similar positioned pilot at cal? Really ?
6. If ual/ cal didnt merge, do u honestly think ual wouldve parked 100 planes? Really? Parking the same type cal was taking a plethora ( el juapo) of?
7. Ur reserve system is abysmal and worse than some regional airlines.
8. The bickering, heroing, and hoaring needs to stop. *** do u need > 100 hrs of pay every month? Regardless of which side u work for there are furloughs- and the unwritten rule is to NOT pick up open time when there are furloughs

1. Cal is 50% of the merger? Surely by mere numbers of pilots and planes u jest.
2. Ual has some heroes, but jesus christ, the cal heroes faaaarrrrr outnumber the ual heroes. I dont know about cal pilots but i want to get paid a higher wage AND have a quality of life- not sacrificing one for the other
3. Are we still calling it a merger of equals or did ual buy cal for $23/share or something like that
4. Goin to cal isnt a recall , its a new hire opportunity with possible a higher payrate- nothing more.
5. Just bc i was furloughed at ual, u honestly think i didnt have a better career progression than a similar positioned pilot at cal? Really ?
6. If ual/ cal didnt merge, do u honestly think ual wouldve parked 100 planes? Really? Parking the same type cal was taking a plethora ( el juapo) of?
7. Ur reserve system is abysmal and worse than some regional airlines.
8. The bickering, heroing, and hoaring needs to stop. *** do u need > 100 hrs of pay every month? Regardless of which side u work for there are furloughs- and the unwritten rule is to NOT pick up open time when there are furloughs


1. Who cares. It's done.
2. Call a spade a spade. If you don't have the data from both sides to back it up, don't post your assumptions.
3. Who cares again. It's done.
4. So take the $30 hr job at Jetblue.
5. Can't believe you posted that with a straight face.
6. Your own guys sold you out for pay and retirement. You lost 100 a/c for 70 seaters. Stop grasping.
7. Did you take the job?
8. We have no furloughs. Or are we back to being one airline after 1-7?

Oh i see. U want to be " one airline" for profit sharing but not for anything else. Ok ur a spade.

Data? Im sure cal has more capts in right seats than ual. Im sure that more cal pilots have paychecks over 100 hrs than united.

Let me guess, ur all for pay banding?

Our bankrupt contract is nearly better than ur non bankrupt one ( besides actual pensions lost)
How can u say if we didnt merge ual would have an incredibly better contract than cal?

Arguring over all this bs is like which special ed kid is going to win the race. In the end it doesnt matter who wins, bc the winner is "special"

You guys need to stop the bickering and acting like children. We are all flying for the same company. There is nothing to be gained from talking to each other like this except an infantile reputation. Knock it off.

You guys need to stop the bickering and acting like children. We are all flying for the same company. There is nothing to be gained from talking to each other like this except an infantile reputation. Knock it off.

+1. I am sure that many others feel the same way.

See #1 on the list.

Expect furloughed pilots to be recalled back to the UAL (L) side of the house for September.

Just need an Airbus slot in EWR please!!!!!:D

Thanks for the replies, but I was looking for some actual numbers. I am well aware of the number of highly qualified applicants that are lining up to get into UAL, and I am also aware that the competitive minimums will be significantly higher and will be dictated by demand and supply. I also realize that LCA and other achievements make pilots more marketable and it's not just about the hours.

Having said all that, does anyone remember what the latest posted mins were last time UAL hired pilots?

Thanks in advance for your replies :)

Thanks for the replies, but I was looking for some actual numbers. I am well aware of the number of highly qualified applicants that are lining up to get into UAL, and I am also aware that the competitive minimums will be significantly higher and will be dictated by demand and supply. I also realize that LCA and other achievements make pilots more marketable and it's not just about the hours.

Having said all that, does anyone remember what the latest posted mins were last time UAL hired pilots?

Thanks in advance for your replies :)

Since the LCAL side will be doing the off the street hiring well before LUAL, I'd look at the last LCAL mins:

1,500 hours fixed-wing total flight time
1,000 hours fixed-wing PIC time, or 500 hours PIC time and 500 hours SIC time in a turbojet
1,000 hours fixed-wing turbine time
1,000 hours fixed-wing multi-engine time (civilian or military) or 1,000 hours single-engine military fighter jet time
Successfull completion of the ATP written exam
A current first class FAA medical
A Bachelor's degree is highly desired

From: Continental Posts Pilot Minimums ! ! ! | Jetcareers (http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/continental-posts-pilot-minimums.16709/)

If you meet the mins, definitely apply. I wouldn't wait for 'competitive' mins; simply update your app on a regular basis. Last time, LCAL used airlineapps. com. You could get a start on filling out the app and then when the window opens, shoot your app in.

All the best to you.

Since the LCAL side will be doing the off the street hiring well before LUAL, I'd look at the last LCAL mins:

1,500 hours fixed-wing total flight time
1,000 hours fixed-wing PIC time, or 500 hours PIC time and 500 hours SIC time in a turbojet
1,000 hours fixed-wing turbine time
1,000 hours fixed-wing multi-engine time (civilian or military) or 1,000 hours single-engine military fighter jet time
Successfull completion of the ATP written exam
A current first class FAA medical
A Bachelor's degree is highly desired

From: Continental Posts Pilot Minimums ! ! ! | Jetcareers (http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/continental-posts-pilot-minimums.16709/)

If you meet the mins, definitely apply. I wouldn't wait for 'competitive' mins; simply update your app on a regular basis. Last time, LCAL used airlineapps. com. You could get a start on filling out the app and then when the window opens, shoot your app in.

All the best to you.


Good advice Andy. The interim manager of pilot recruitment and intern coordination is a L-CAL captain and I assume he will be setting the minimums etc. I know they are spooling up recruitment teams and will be attending recruiting events beginning this weekend in Dallas, where UAL will be attending the Women in Aviation conference.

Just need an Airbus slot in EWR please!!!!!:D

I read today, that the L-UA vacancy bid will be in May or June for Sept Is that normal timing?

I read today, that the L-UA vacancy bid will be in May or June for Sept Is that normal timing?

That's normal. Sounds like completely different bidding systems; it'll be interesting to see which one survives.
I prefer the LUAL method; when things start moving, there are vacancy bids every month or so.

That's normal. Sounds like completely different bidding systems; it'll be interesting to see which one survives.
I prefer the LUAL method; when things start moving, there are vacancy bids every month or so.

Vacancy bids every month? Seems like a good method, if youre growing like gang busters..Has it been that way since the 90s. Once awarded a bid, are you locked in or until a training date is assigned?

Vacancy bids every month? Seems like a good method, if youre growing like gang busters..Has it been that way since the 90s. Once awarded a bid, are you locked in or until a training date is assigned?

With age 65, the combined airline will lose ~40 pilots/month.

Locked in. When I was recalled in 2007, I was awarded a 75/76 to IAD. I didn't clear my bid screen from 2002 and I was subsequently awarded a 75/76 to LAX. Fortunately, I was on mil leave. The award executed but I was eventually able to get another IAD 75/76 slot prior to coming off of mil leave. (I was on mil leave for almost a year after recall).

Vacancy bids every month? Seems like a good method, if youre growing like gang busters..Has it been that way since the 90s. Once awarded a bid, are you locked in or until a training date is assigned?

Slammer,

It does have some nice features;

The training dates cover a smaller window (2-3 months) allowing pilots to time equipment bids during months they wish to avoid training (like summer or a holiday).

The junior guys do not have to worry about being bumped about each bid. Once you get a BES award it is yours to keep unless the company needs to surplus pilots off that BES. That does not occur very often, and uses a completely separate process.

In the mid and late 90's they posted vacancies bids almost every month. One could bid equipment in one base, and the following month lateral to another.

They require less patience and provide more frequent options.

Of course this is all predicated on having vacancies, which is what really matters most...

SP

Dec 13th will be here before we know it! 9 months to go!

Dec 13th will be here before we know it! 9 months to go!

Dec 13th? Is that when guys start retiring or when Smallsak announces that they've reached a new grievance settlement with P(oS)ierce for a new extra-contractual agreement for CAL PS for 2012 since we won't have a JCBA by then?

1. Who cares. It's done.
6. Your own guys sold you out for pay and retirement. You lost 100 a/c for 70 seaters. Stop grasping.


Uh, BS. Loss of scope was in 2003. Announcement to park the guppies was in 2008, immediately after CAL balked the first time Tilton tried to merge.

RJs were used as a placeholder. Many of the former UAL 737 routes went to RJ and back to 737 (CAL) pretty quickly after the merger was finalized. FLL for example.

KC

Keep repeating inaccurate BS, even with contradictory factual data to refute it, and the dimwits among us will start to believe it, and will then parrot it out as fact. Kind of like WMD and the Al Qaeda / Saddam Hussein connection.

And someone wondered why so many guys have left this forum.

Keep repeating inaccurate BS, even with contradictory factual data to refute it, and the dimwits among us will start to believe it, and will then parrot it out as fact. Kind of like WMD and the Al Qaeda / Saddam Hussein connection.

And someone wondered why so many guys have left this forum.


Where is Dexim, Catan and dumbfounded?

Uh, BS. Loss of scope was in 2003. Announcement to park the guppies was in 2008, immediately after CAL balked the first time Tilton tried to merge.

RJs were used as a placeholder. Many of the former UAL 737 routes went to RJ and back to 737 (CAL) pretty quickly after the merger was finalized. FLL for example.KC, 2008 also marked the worldwide economic collapse. Some stats for you... YOY 08-09 UAL Mainline ASM -10%, UAL "Regional Affiliates" +11%, CAL Mainline ASM -5%, CAL "Regional Affiliates" -7%. 148 pilots at CAL were furloughed in 2008. Scope and our newer 737s saved us winding up with more furloughs.

When UAL hires again what type rating would be more advantageous to have? A320 or
B737NG?
Does a B737 type work against you if you are not interviewing at SWA?

Please, no sarcastic answers.

When UAL hires again what type rating would be more advantageous to have? A320 or
B737NG?
Does a B737 type work against you if you are not interviewing at SWA?

Please, no sarcastic answers.

Not being sarcastic, but if you aren't having the type rating paid for by someone other than yourself don't get one to come to this company. You'll end up having 10,000 dollars worth of debt for a job that pays you s%$^ for a very long time.

If I was going to pay I would get the 737 type so that I could possibly go to SWA. Now whether that hurts you with UAL, I don't know.

Disregard....................

UAL MEC says recalls for L-UAL furloughees starts in September 2012.

UAL MEC says recalls for L-UAL furloughees starts in September 2012.

Well.... Maybe.

I talked to my LEC guy Friday and he says the company is now re-evaluating that situation. He says the spike in oil prices has got them spooked.

Well.... Maybe.

I talked to my LEC guy Friday and he says the company is now re-evaluating that situation. He says the spike in oil prices has got them spooked.

Hoss I know you have been around the pattern for a long time but I would like to point out not to fall into the oil price trap. The company loves that BS and will use it at every opportunity to lower your expectations.

I really hope they start recalling soon.......these CAL reserve rules really are THAT BAD!!!!!! At this rate, I may quit or be fired any day.......

I really hope they start recalling soon.......these CAL reserve rules really are THAT BAD!!!!!! At this rate, I may quit or be fired any day.......
I hear you get bonus points at an outstation......
Just say'in.

I really hope they start recalling soon.......these CAL reserve rules really are THAT BAD!!!!!! At this rate, I may quit or be fired any day.......

Sorry you guys have to go through this! It will be resolved and fixed if we can get the MEC's on the same page and get a JCBA. There is more than meets the eye at work here, but I think the CAL rank and file are starting to see the light. That's a big step for them and we should encourage it.

Hoss I know you have been around the pattern for a long time but I would like to point out not to fall into the oil price trap. The company loves that BS and will use it at every opportunity to lower your expectations.

My thoughts as well when I heard that. Oil ALWAYS spikes between March and May. Which is why I always buy USO stock on March first and sell it May first.

I keep on hearing conflicting things
I hear that United has so many furloughs left but then I hear that CAL has growth for next year and a ton of retirements coming up. I also hear that furlough acceptance rate is only about 1 for every 6.

Who will do the actual hiring? Will it still be on Airline apps?
The system bid closes out Thursday. The award will posted within a few days. The award will show exactly how many vacancies there are and where they are. Assuming a continued 1 to 6 acceptance ratio for the UAL pilots there will be less than 100 vacancies filled by them. The rest will be filled by off the street hires probably starting in the early fall.

The one wildcard that I don't know about is, do they go through the UAL furlough list a second (and final) time? That's the way CAL did it when they recalled their own furloughs. If they do that, they'll get more takers second time around and it will delay street hires. But with the 787s, more 737s arriving, and retirements, I think they'll be training new hires for the next few years. Street hires are inevitable in the near future.

The one wildcard that I don't know about is, do they go through the UAL furlough list a second (and final) time? That's the way CAL did it when they recalled their own furloughs. If they do that, they'll get more takers second time around and it will delay street hires. But with the 787s, more 737s arriving, and retirements, I think they'll be training new hires for the next few years.

APC,

Again, this is not a recall. It is a lukewarm newhire opportunity ala Mesa or Skywest. There is no penalty for telling LCAL thanks, but no thanks....

APC,

Again, this is not a recall. It is a lukewarm newhire opportunity ala Mesa or Skywest. There is no penalty for telling LCAL thanks, but no thanks....
Correct.

In fact there is no penalty for taking the LCAL offer, getting current, quitting, and accepting a UAL recall in the future. (Just saying.)

For APC225, LCAL does not go through the list a second time. Anybody that previously declined the offer can simply make a call to start the process anytime LCAL is hiring prior to ISL.

The one wildcard that I don't know about is, do they go through the UAL furlough list a second (and final) time?

When you get your package, you either accept or decline. If you decline, you can re-enter the process with 30 days written notice to LCAL. If you decline again after sending them notice, you aren't eligible for the program any longer. So unlike a recall (which this isn't), they won't be going through the list a second time.

What potentially could occur is United Furloughees opting to re-enter the process once LCAL is hiring off of the streets. I assume that they would retain their seniority rights relative to the any new hires. If anybody has further information on this, please post it.

If anybody has further information on this, please post it.
The TPA is pretty clear that L-UAL furloughees retain relative seniority with other L-UAL furloughees. This is also why we might see some of the more 'senior' (cough) furloughees take the offer once their % on the list is better.

I was thinking along the lines of United furloughees and "off the street" new hires. It shouldn't make any difference IMO but I don't believe it's been specifically addressed.

APC,
Again, this is not a recall. ....
Thanks. I was careful to not use the "recall" word reference UAL pilots but not careful enough. I used it in reference to CAL pilots only on their recent furloughs being given a second chance, and this "second chance" might also apply to UAL pilots, though not in their case as a "recall"--although that has also been answered here, no second run through of the list, but rather the UAL pilot may get a second opportunity by asking for it.

There is no recall. Sorry for any misunderstanding on that.

As to the original question by PinnacleFO, since there is no comprehinsive second pass on the UAL furlough list, the street hires will happen sooner rather than later.