Airline Pilot Forums

On Friday 3/9, CAL ALPA PRES CA Jay Pierce states in the Houston Chronicle that he expects to settle a contract by mid-summer. Where as, to date, all union pilot bulletins indicate otherwise. All union bulletins persistently blame management for stalling negotiations. This is not entirely true. Management has shown they want to settle with other hard line employee groups coming to a settlement with the AFA and the Teamsters (Both also received a signing bonus). Keeping the top blue collar labor group (CAL Pilots) contract open is not good for business. It strongly affects investor/creditor confidence in the airline. It also affects stock price. The CAL pilot contract has remained open for over four years with little to no progress. Junior inexperienced union negotiators cannot come to an agreement over uniform style, quality or color much least the most important issues concerning work rules, benefits & compensation, etc. Mr. Pierce has spent years doing nothing and their N.C. has not even begun "Compensation" discussions, yet he expects to settle their contract by summer? What does Mr. Pierce know that the rest of us don't know? He has a long history of back room dealing with management. Mr. Pierce making such statement indicates that he will be able to come to a settlement over pay issues very quickly. Obviously, "Pay" has never been an issue keeping the contract open. Then why has the contract remained open for so long? In the process, CAL pilots have fallen further and further behind. It appears as if both management and the Jay Pierce cartel have come to an amicable window of opportunity to finalize the contract at the expense of 4,800 pilots. Management has got away imposing probably the worst set of work rules in aviation history and Pierce, along with his supporters, have coasted on full flight pay loss, positive space passes, lavish expense accounts, rental cars, luxury hotels and of course, seldom ever having to fly the line. Many of those holding MEC positions supporting Pierce can barely hold a line of flying. No wonder they want the contract to remain open. The longer the contract remains open, the longer they get pay and perks way beyond their seniority. The UAL SSL juggernaut is also looming over Pierce. By him wanting to soon settle the contract indicates that he most probably has a management job waiting or will be promoted out of his current union job (I.E., $400,000 ALPA EVP position). Note, that not one union official who sold management CAL's current debilitating concessionary contract has been punished. They have either been given management jobs or promoted within the union. We have to stop rewarding those who do these things to our pilots. This is not only wrong doing against CAL pilots but to every professional airline pilot.

**These are excerpts from a letter that will soon be presented to the CAL ALPA MEC demanding an immediate "Vote of No Confidence" for key union leaders.

Bravo! About time IMO.

....deleted.

On Friday 3/9, CAL ALPA PRES CA Jay Pierce states in the Houston Chronicle that he expects to settle a contract by mid-summer. Where as, to date, all union pilot bulletins indicate otherwise. All union bulletins persistently blame management for stalling negotiations. This is not entirely true. Management has shown they want to settle with other hard line employee groups coming to a settlement with the AFA and the Teamsters (Both also received a signing bonus). Keeping the top blue collar labor group (CAL Pilots) contract open is not good for business. It strongly affects investor/creditor confidence in the airline. It also affects stock price. The CAL pilot contract has remained open for over four years with little to no progress. Junior inexperienced union negotiators cannot come to an agreement over uniform style, quality or color much least the most important issues concerning work rules, benefits & compensation, etc. Mr. Pierce has spent years doing nothing and their N.C. has not even begun "Compensation" discussions, yet he expects to settle their contract by summer? What does Mr. Pierce know that the rest of us don't know? He has a long history of back room dealing with management. Mr. Pierce making such statement indicates that he will be able to come to a settlement over pay issues very quickly. Obviously, "Pay" has never been an issue keeping the contract open. Then why has the contract remained open for so long? In the process, CAL pilots have fallen further and further behind. It appears as if both management and the Jay Pierce cartel have come to an amicable window of opportunity to finalize the contract at the expense of 4,800 pilots. Management has got away imposing probably the worst set of work rules in aviation history and Pierce, along with his supporters, have coasted on full flight pay loss, positive space passes, lavish expense accounts, rental cars, luxury hotels and of course, seldom ever having to fly the line. Many of those holding MEC positions supporting Pierce can barely hold a line of flying. No wonder they want the contract to remain open. The longer the contract remains open, the longer they get pay and perks way beyond their seniority. The UAL SSL juggernaut is also looming over Pierce. By him wanting to soon settle the contract indicates that he most probably has a management job waiting or will be promoted out of his current union job (I.E., $400,000 ALPA EVP position). Note, that not one union official who sold management CAL's current debilitating concessionary contract has been punished. They have either been given management jobs or promoted within the union. We have to stop rewarding those who do these things to our pilots. This is not only wrong doing against CAL pilots but to every professional airline pilot.

**These are excerpts from a letter that will soon be presented to the CAL ALPA MEC demanding an immediate "Vote of No Confidence" for key union leaders.


Cause the union leaders we have had in the past 8 years are soooooooooooo much better and have produced outstanding results. Wait, lets get Wendy Morse from UAL to take Jay's place and get us the contract we deserve. I'm sure she would do a bang-up job of getting us a contract. Oh, that's right; she wasn't re-elected cause the UAL pilots don't trust her. I agree Jay isn't perfect but if you are correct about any of your "assumptions", can you hook a brotha up on the powerball numbers?

I find it funny that you seem to know so much about what's going on in the negotiation process without actually being a member of either airlines' negotiating committee.

Interesting first post.

I have heard that they expect it to be finish within a year maybe even this summer. They haven't started compensation, which normally doesn't take long, because they have been working on scheduling which is more important and much more complicated. And yes the company has been holding up that section but now that the duty regs are out there is no more reason for stalling and it should proceed more quickly from here.

To me this sounds like a someone getting a little scared they might be forced to retire before a contract is settled.

"Assumptions?" Are you denying that Pierce made statement to the Houston Chronicle that he is "bullish" the contract will soon be settled? Are you denying that the current debilitating CAL pilot contract was mostly conceived by their pilots including Jay Pierce? Are you denying that their contract has been open for over four years? Are you denying that Jay Pierce is former CALEX management who has a long history of non-flying, self serving and being anti-pilot? Are you denying that CAL ALPA has several union leaders now employed in the CPO or other management positions including three former contract negotiators? Sir, I ask you, exactly what am I "assuming?"

Interesting first post.

I have heard that they expect it to be finish within a year maybe even this summer. They haven't started compensation, which normally doesn't take long, because they have been working on scheduling which is more important and much more complicated. And yes the company has been holding up that section but now that the duty regs are out there is no more reason for stalling and it should proceed more quickly from here.

To me this sounds like a someone getting a little scared they might be forced to retire before a contract is settled.
"You heard . . .?" I just posted the source. It's not rumor or opinion, it's fact. Perhaps if most of you dealt with facts rather than stupidity, you wouldn't be working for such a rotten corrupt industry.

Most of you are suppose to have an education and to be able to think clearly. I'm horrified to learn many of you are complete dolts incapable of rational thought. No wonder Obama is President and no wonder your employee groups are suffering. Management loves people like you.

"You heard . . .?" I just posted the source. It's not rumor or opinion, it's fact. Perhaps if most of you dealt with facts rather than stupidity, you wouldn't be working for such a rotten corrupt industry.

Most of you are suppose to have an education and to be able to think clearly. I'm horrified to learn many of you are complete dolts incapable of rational thought. No wonder Obama is President and no wonder your employee groups are suffering. Management loves people like you.

I think clearly enough not to get worked up over some blowhard on an internet forum. I'm not sure what your problem is? I have talked with union reps and they are saying this next year, maybe this summer and you posted your "source" that they feel there will be a contract this summer. Are you saying you don't want a contract by this summer? Your complaining that they aren't discussing comp yet, do you want them to just skip scheduling?
Slow down, take a deep breath. Ok, now what would you like to see and why?

I think clearly enough not to get worked up over some blowhard on an internet forum. I'm not sure what your problem is? I have talked with union reps and they are saying this next year, maybe this summer and you posted your "source" that they feel there will be a contract this summer. Are you saying you don't want a contract by this summer? Your complaining that they aren't discussing comp yet, do you want them to just skip scheduling?
Slow down, take a deep breath. Ok, now what would you like to see and why?
You are missing the point. The point is that CAL ALPA union leaders are directly responsible for their own horrific contract. CAL ALPA union leaders are responsible for diminishing returns on whatever pittance of a pay raise they do get. They should have settle years ago for some raise and now be negotiating their second or third pay raise. Instead, they are getting further and further behind. The entire stalling process helps management AND helps mostly junior union officials stay in power soaking up pay and perks entitled to pilots way beyond their seniority. There is no incentive for them to close the contract when they get full flight pay loss, expense accounts, rental cars, luxury hotels, positive space travel and seldom have to fly the line. Mr. Pierce has been telling CAL pilots they are not even close to an agreement and the next day tells the Houston Chronicle they should be able to come to an agreement this summer. Mr. Pierce is lying to someone. He has vested much time negotiating non-cost items and seems to think compensation is an open and closed item. If Pierce can predict closure of the contract by this summer then he is putting little to no effort into compensation. He already knows the outcome of the contract and that is to play right into management's hands.

Any non-management pilot who supports Jay Pierce does not support organized labor. This guy is a management shill leading a scab airline. There are pilots working at CAL who have super seniority. They actually expect to fly senior to UAL pilots with similar seniority? There is a reason UAL pilots despise Pierce and this guy is going to take down the entire CAL pilot group. In the process, he will emerge with a management job. You can count on it. Those of you supporting him, are enabling him. What you have to ask yourself is "What are you getting out of the deal?" Answer: Absolutely nothing. The UAL SSL steamroller is cranking up and will be rolling right over you stupid CAL fools.

The point is that CAL ALPA union leaders are directly responsible for their own horrific contract.How many of the present MEC members were on the NC or MEC in early '05 for C02? Zero.

He has vested much time negotiating non-cost items and seems to think compensation is an open and closed item. If Pierce can predict closure of the contrac by this summer then he is putting little to no effort into compensation.As has been said by Beeker, compensation is relatively simple because it is simply the number(s) you plug into the equation to come up with the overall cost of a contract.

He already knows the outcome of the contract and that is to play right into management's hands.Really? How is the almighty Jay Pierce going to blow this past the votes of both MECs and the combined pilot group?

"Assumptions?" Are you denying that Pierce made statement to the Houston Chronicle that he is "bullish" the contract will soon be settled? Are you denying that the current debilitating CAL pilot contract was mostly conceived by their pilots including Jay Pierce? Are you denying that their contract has been open for over four years? Are you denying that Jay Pierce is former CALEX management who has a long history of non-flying, self serving and being anti-pilot? Are you denying that CAL ALPA has several union leaders now employed in the CPO or other management positions including three former contract negotiators? Sir, I ask you, exactly what am I "assuming?"

Ringel, your a putz.

At WonHungLo or whatever, I placed a STUPIDER curse on you but it was kicked back as impossible.

Ringel, your a putz.

+10 lol I think you have nailed it!

"You're" as in you are. The almighty apostrophe is pretty important. Or, "Your" as in, "Dude!, I just saw your putz!"

What if we require all union reps accepting flight pay loss (or some other such qualifier) to sign a legally binding agreement that they will not accept any management position for a period (5 years, life of the contract ...?)
after leaving said union position ?

If you're not willing to sign it, probably not someone we want to trust

"You're" as in you are. The almighty apostrophe is pretty important. Or, "Your" as in, "Dude!, I just saw your putz!"

I think the CAL brain trust is having a melt-down. I'm thinking Dexim or Catan should join WonHungLo and light them up.

How many of the present MEC members were on the NC or MEC in early '05 for C02? Zero.

As has been said by Beeker, compensation is relatively simple because it is simply the number(s) you plug into the equation to come up with the overall cost of a contract.

Really? How is the almighty Jay Pierce going to blow this past the votes of both MECs and the combined pilot group?
The terms of the current concessionary contract have got worse under current CAL leadership. By default, the contract must accommodate an onerous PBS that undermines pilot seniority. The PBS is widely despised by the majority of CAL pilots. Despite hundreds if not thousands of complaints, the founder of CAL PBS has twice been promoted. First replacing PBS Chairman who was fired for FLP abuse and to his current position as Chairman of the Negotiating Committee. This junior pilot has never negotiated a contract in his life and has been fumbling for the past several years. He does not have to use his own PBS because when he does decide to fly, he "cherry picks" his trips.

2. Only a simpleton thinks labor compensation negotiations are "relatively simple." Even if we use your simpleton excuse, that does not explain away negotiating for more compensation. Pay issues are so complex that millions of dollars are spent on consultants, accountants, finance experts, etc. On many occasions these things are decided by an arbitrator who has to use complex formula, legal precedent and a heavy dose of common sense. Only a fool thinks compensation negotiations are "simple."

3. First of all, CAL ALPA Rules & By-Laws give their MEC absolute authority to do basically anything they want to do without a vote. Some wrongly think that a poll or a survey about these things is a standing vote. They are not. Regardless, Jay Pierce has never asked for pilot help, opinion or a vote on anything that he has tried to force through the MEC. Pierce doesn't care what the pilots think or want. In any case, your statement assumes that the majority of 4,800 pilots will agree with Pierce and settle for whatever bone the company throws. Suppose Pierce does give our pilots a vote and they say "No." Then what? How many more months or years do they negotiate? Therefore, my statement stands that Pierce has no right predicting the contract will settled sometime this year. He has no idea. If he does know then he already knows the outcome which means he will be forcing our pilots into something they probably do not want.

I have a classic education which means that I know logic, I know how to use logic and therefore am able to think in a rational manner. Your ill-logic and wild reckless statements are easily refuted.

See if you can figure out this simple logical analogy. "There is a black spot on the tip of chicken-****. No matter how you try to explain away that black spot, it's still chicken ****." Comprende? Do you get the point?

What if we require all union reps accepting flight pay loss (or some other such qualifier) to sign a legally binding agreement that they will not accept any management position for a period (5 years, life of the contract ...?)
after leaving said union position ?

If you're not willing to sign it, probably not someone we want to trust
Great Post. CAL ALPA does have similar unbiding agreement. Unfortunately, the lure for that highly coveted management job keeps any of them from signing an agreement. I would like to emphasize, that I want our hononorable hard working union officials to be properly compensated and taken care of. I just don't want them making a career of these things and purposely dragging out the negotiation process for their benefit.

I think the CAL brain trust is having a melt-down. I'm thinking Dexim or Catan should join WonHungLo and light them up.
Sir, I see things are too complicated and sophisticated for you. When you stop puffing on Mary Jane and come to grips with reality, you will understand that if you are an airline pilot, your career is in the gutter. Guys like Jay Pierce don't even know you are alive. They look at you but don't see you. If you knew your aviation history, you would understand that the once proud Continental Airline pilots were compensated more adequately and justly 30 to 40 years ago than they are today. Not too long ago, UAL pilots were earning about $400,000 per year with all of their benefits paid and about a $3M to $4M retirement package. Today those things are long gone. Your career is crap and it's only going to get worse. Guys like Pierce will make about $400K and you will be lucky to have an Al Bundy shoe salesman job when you retire. That's if you don't croak by then. Look at the death rate at CAL airlines. They have about two per month croaking over there. Wake up, fool. Before you know it some Croatian or Russian will be taking our job because guys like Pierce will pave the way for outsourcing, doing away with the seniority system, etc. It's already happening, Sparky. Are you mentally impaired or just pretending to be stupid?

I think the CAL brain trust is having a melt-down. I'm thinking Dexim or Catan should join WonHungLo and light them up.

Sir, I see things are too complicated and sophisticated for you. When you stop puffing on Mary Jane and come to grips with reality, you will understand that if you are an airline pilot, your career is in the gutter. Guys like Jay Pierce don't even know you are alive. They look at you but don't see you. If you knew your aviation history, you would understand that the once proud Continental Airline pilots were compensated more adequately and justly 30 to 40 years ago than they are today. Not too long ago, UAL pilots were earning about $400,000 per year with all of their benefits paid and about a $3M to $4M retirement package. Today those things are long gone. Your career is crap and it's only going to get worse. Guys like Pierce will make about $400K and you will be lucky to have an Al Bundy shoe salesman job when you retire. That's if you don't croak by then. Look at the death rate at CAL airlines. They have about two per month croaking over there. Wake up, fool. Before you know it some Croatian or Russian will be taking our job because guys like Pierce will pave the way for outsourcing, doing away with the seniority system, etc. It's already happening, Sparky. Are you mentally impaired or just pretending to be stupid?

If you look, I think you'll find we are on the same page. Several before you have moved and brought forward the misdeeds of Pierce only to be shot out of the water by the forum regulars. This is a critical time for all United Pilots(CAL and UAL). What we do today will likely last 10-15 years or more in the future and that could very well be the remainder of most careers here.
All United Pilots (CAL and UAL) need to hold our LEC reps and in turn our MEC chairmen accountable. If we rubber stamp theirs misdeeds and theft, we are no better than them - we just don't the payout they do!

I love it when people with "classic education" talk down to me. The question is whether or not his logic can be passed on to us simpletons.
By the way the compensation section is an easier section and it is just plugging a number into a formula. It is the scheduling section that is creating the formula. Go smoke on that logic for a little while.

I love it when people with "classic education" talk down to me. The question is whether or not his logic can be passed on to us simpletons.
By the way the compensation section is an easier section and it is just plugging a number into a formula. It is the scheduling section that is creating the formula. Go smoke on that logic for a little while.

And you wonder why they talk down to you.

Blame mgt for not having a contract. Explain to me how ALPA can get a contract without mgt. Some on this thread think UNION power is alive and well. It's to bad labor needs unions. If someone on this thread thinks CAL ALPA is doing this pilot group wrong do something about. Change it.

I love it when people with "classic education" talk down to me. The question is whether or not his logic can be passed on to us simpletons.
By the way the compensation section is an easier section and it is just plugging a number into a formula. It is the scheduling section that is creating the formula. Go smoke on that logic for a little while.My bad for engaging him. I need to adhere to my DFTT rule better. Nice touch on his part by claiming to be a 737 Captain to throw everyone off.

My bad for engaging him. I need to adhere to my DFTT rule better. Nice touch on his part by claiming to be a 737 Captain to throw everyone off.

BINGO!

I pegged this dude within 5 seconds of reading his first post when he was still "hung low".:rolleyes:

This stuff is actually entertaining as heck if you just step back and read it for what it is. Folks getting all fired up about it is the really funny part.

Trolls can't live without food. So don't feed them.

Whenever you see a guy talking big on the net just keep this little ditty in mind.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/GTAllyn/Internettoughguy.jpg

Your post is filled with incomprehensible grunts and gurggles. Are you choking on your own bile?

This is very simple. It is clear that Jay Pierce is anti-union / anti-labor and anyone coming to his defense believes the same way.

No one is "talking down" to you. You are inable to effectively argue a point without name calling, bullying (I.E., calling for mass ignore, etc.). That's exactly what I spoke about in my post. "Mussolini" fascist like tactics. Doesn't work on me, bucko.

This is typical of the young punks flying for airlines today. They are un-educated, stupid, have no sense of history and are extremely nasty bastards. They cannot effectively debate, so they resort to all out attacks, calling for mass ingore, etc. If any of their buddies get out of line, they use the same tactics against them. Then you wonder why people like Jay Power rise to power? He manipulates you brain dead punks like a hand puppet. How sad. How sad being so easily manipulated.

Your post is filled with incomprehensible grunts and gurggles. Are you choking on your own bile?

This is very simple. It is clear that Jay Pierce is anti-union / anti-labor and anyone coming to his defense believes the same way.

No one is "talking down" to you. You are inable to effectively argue a point without name calling, bullying (I.E., calling for mass ignore, etc.). That's exactly what I spoke about in my post. "Mussolini" fascist like tactics. Doesn't work on me, bucko.

This is typical of the young punks flying for airlines today. They are un-educated, stupid, have no sense of history and are extremely nasty bastards. They cannot effectively debate, so they resort to all out attacks, calling for mass ingore, etc. If any of their buddies get out of line, they use the same tactics against them. Then you wonder why people like Jay Power rise to power? He manipulates you brain dead punks like a hand puppet. How sad. How sad being so easily manipulated.

Wow, LMAO, thanks for doing all the heavy lifting.

Wow, LMAO, thanks for doing all the heavy lifting.
He aint heavy, he's my brother.