Airline Pilot Forums

Even though the subject matter (thread) title is "CAL/UAL Merger" which in itself a controversial subject, the Administrator has warned me for being too controversial. Those "controversial" posts of mine are generating much response. Isn't that what the Administrator's site is all about? Does he not use commercial advertisers here and needs participation? Or is this site just for those who are like minded and support the status quo? In the spirit and direction of the Administrator, I will choose less controversial subjects. Such as:

What do you think of our new uniform?

Our union has spent over four years discussing uniform style and color. In the interest of being benign, let us forget that they have spent millions of union dollars debating uniform style and color. I'l betcha this uniform is a doozy. Shiney and purtty and quality material and all. It must be one hell of a uniform because the late famous clothing designer Edith Head could design the Queen's clothes over night and it's taken our union four years. What a uniform it's going to be!

Consider the following. The pilot uniform is required garb. CAL is one of the only airlines in the country that does not provide an annual uniform allowance or provide cleaning allowance. I guess these things aren't too important to our union and or our pilots. I wonder if they are important to UAL pilots?

If JP is going to spend four years and millions of dollars trying to decide between black or navy blue uniform, you can imagine how long he's going to spend negotiating the rest of our contract. You can bet JP is thorough. No expense and time is too much when fighting for our contract. Of course, by the time he finalizes the contract, most of you will be old men. Go, Jay! Go! Spend! Spend! Spend! It's only union dues. There's more where that came from!

What would be your suggestion for a "non-controversial uniform?"

Ummm. DAL pilots do not have a uniform allowance or cleaning allowance either.

Well hell, if DAL doesn't have a uniform allowance then no one should get it. What else should we pay for out of our own pocket?

I am not sure how ALPA is paying millions. I thought the company was doing the leg work and ALPA "volunteers" provided input.

Ummm. DAL pilots do not have a uniform allowance or cleaning allowance either.

USAirways does not have a uniform allowance.

And if you choose to call me a "moron" (truthhurts) I would suggest you use your name in your post.

Nice edit there truthhurts

Mike Lochner
L-Cal

I am not sure how ALPA is paying millions. I thought the company was doing the leg work and ALPA "volunteers" provided input.
If you review CAL ALPA budget for the past four years, I think you will see they have spent millions of dues paying dollars on the negotiation process alone. That includes our uniform. Over the past four years, the development of our uniform has been a primary project and with much publicity. Nothing else. They sure and hell have not been spending your money on negotiating compensation or to get you a No Furlough rights.

USAirways does not have a uniform allowance.



Mike Lochner
L-Cal

Nassau Flyers? Mike Lochner?

Lee

Nassau Flyers? Mike Lochner?

Lee

I was wondering if that was you.

If you review CAL ALPA budget for the past four years, I think you will see they have spent millions of dues paying dollars on the negotiation process alone. That includes our uniform. Over the past four years, the development of our uniform has been a primary project and with much publicity. Nothing else. They sure and hell have not been spending your money on negotiating compensation or to get you a No Furlough rights.

OK

How about posting a copy of the budget so we can look at the numbers. exactly how much was spent on the uniform committee? How much was spent on the NC less the company's reimbursement?

How about some facts!!!

Most folks on the L-Cal side know who you are and what your agenda is. It's tough for you to be so discredited that your peers just laugh and roll their eyes at the mere mention of your name.

Out of curiosity how many forums have you been banned from at this point?

I am not sure how ALPA is paying millions. I thought the company was doing the leg work and ALPA "volunteers" provided input.

Volunteers one of favorite alpa words, lol.

I don't believe that uniforms are negotiated, the company makes the decisions, like deciding what aircraft they buy.

OK

How about posting a copy of the budget so we can look at the numbers. exactly how much was spent on the uniform committee? How much was spent on the NC less the company's reimbursement?

How about some facts!!!

Most folks on the L-Cal side know who you are and what your agenda is. It's tough for you to be so discredited that your peers just laugh and roll their eyes at the mere mention of your name.

Out of curiosity how many forums have you been banned from at this point?


I'm a UAL guy and can see that TruthHurts has you number. You guys would rather talk about uniforms than the real issues facing the CAL pilots. I will likely not agree with TruthHurts, but I'd rather stand with him when the time comes to fight. I don't think he is likely to RUN.

I'm a UAL guy and can see that TruthHurts has you number. You guys would rather talk about uniforms than the real issues facing the CAL pilots. I will likely not agree with TruthHurts, but I'd rather stand with him when the time comes to fight. I don't think he is likely to RUN.

I think it is kind of weird that someone would follow an anonymous poster on a board without knowing that persons character and history. Particularly when their postings do not contain any verifiable facts, just rambling, virtually incoherent musings.

As for uniforms. It's my understanding that most of the effort in selecting new unforms is on the L-UAL side. Perhaps I am wrong, anyone have any facts?

I think it is kind of weird that someone would follow an anonymous poster on a board without knowing that persons character and history. Particularly when their postings do not contain any verifiable facts, just rambling, virtually incoherent musings.

As for uniforms. It's my understanding that most of the effort in selecting new unforms is on the L-UAL side. Perhaps I am wrong, anyone have any facts?

It's interesting that all you guys do is attack his character, call him names and suggest that he takes drugs. Why not address the issues surrounding your MEC Chairman. There must be a reason you guys refuse to do that. Is it possible much of what he's saying is true and you don't know what to do about it.
As for uniforms, you are on your own - I don't care!

It's interesting that all you guys do is attack his character, call him names and suggest that he takes drugs. Why not address the issues surrounding your MEC Chairman. There must be a reason you guys refuse to do that. Is it possible much of what he's saying is true and you don't know what to do about it.As the old legal adage goes; if the facts are on your side, argue the facts. If not, then argue the law. Just replace law with someone posting opposing opinions for the APC version.

As the old legal adage goes; if the facts are on your side, argue the facts. If not, then argue the law. Just replace law with someone posting opposing opinions for the APC version.Just curious... if I told you I've got inside information proving 9/11 was a plot by our government and the Apollo moon landings were a hoax, are those just opposing opinions deserving serious consideration? After all, I've got the facts on my side.

"A lie can travel half way around the world before the truth puts on its shoes." Mark Twain

Just curious... if I told you I've got inside information proving 9/11 was a plot by our government and the Apollo moon landings were a hoax, are those just opposing opinions deserving serious consideration? After all, I've got the facts on my side.

"A lie can travel half way around the world before the truth puts on its shoes." Mark Twain

I don't know that we are dealing with lies. We've seen his actions related to the UAL MEC as they were dealing with the company and it wasn't good. He appeared to side with the company on issues that could affect all CAL/UAL pilots going forward. I didn't understand his actions then and your blindly supporting him now.

After all, I've got the facts on my side.Actually, in those cases you don't, but there is absolutely no doubt that Jay Pierce, a so-called labor leader, broke ranks with his United brethren, upon contact with our managerial foes whom have repeatedly expressed their gratitude for his performance. We also know he worked in management for Jonathon Ornstein, and that he recently told two newspapers that JCBA negotiations are going well despite still not being able to reach agreement on scheduling after 15 months of negotiation on those sections alone when the whole JCBA was supposed to take eight weeks.

Management can't buy PR like that - or can they?

I don't know that we are dealing with lies. We've seen his actions related to the UAL MEC as they were dealing with the company and it wasn't good. He appeared to side with the company on issues that could affect all CAL/UAL pilots going forward. I didn't understand his actions then and your blindly supporting him now.As has been pointed out, the OP is in error about the very process of uniform selection. All problems come back to JP, until there's another MEC Chair, and then it'll all be their fault, check our history (or probably yours, for that matter). Here's the reality, few CAL pilots are excited about JP as MEC Chair and that includes some on the MEC. However, there's a lot of trust in our MEC collectively and as long as they see fit to have Pierce as the MEC Chair, I accept their decision. If anyone finds enough support to replace enough JP supporters in the MEC to recall him, then that's the will of the pilots. Right now that's not the case and a constant throw it against the wall and see what sticks approach accomplishes nothing.

As has been pointed out, the OP is in error about the very process of uniform selection. All problems come back to JP, until there's another MEC Chair, and then it'll all be their fault, check our history (or probably yours, for that matter). Here's the reality, few CAL pilots are excited about JP as MEC Chair and that includes some on the MEC. However, there's a lot of trust in our MEC collectively and as long as they see fit to have Pierce as the MEC Chair, I accept their decision. If anyone finds enough support to replace enough JP supporters in the MEC to recall him, then that's the will of the pilots. Right now that's not the case and a constant throw it against the wall and see what sticks approach accomplishes nothing.

I have to ask what has JP done for the CAL pilots. I don't know him and judge him based on what he's done during the time since merger. My friend, he has not done well. Instead of working with the UAL MEC he goes off and joins management on issues that will affect both CAL and UAL pilots. THAT HAS AN IMPACT ON ME. The UAL pilots will not allow him to put the collective group(CAL/UAL) in a position of poor work rules and pay. We'll end up like USAir - Promise.

I have to ask what has JP done for the CAL pilots.Name a tangible accomplishment of any of our MEC Chairs since we've become ALPA? How about any of yours since 9/11? The RLA and economic circumstances haven't been kind to pilots in the past decade.

The UAL pilots will not allow him to put the collective group(CAL/UAL) in a position of poor work rules and pay.Nor will the CAL pilots, or the process, for that matter.

Name a tangible accomplishment of any of our MEC Chairs since we've become ALPA? How about any of yours since 9/11? The RLA and economic circumstances haven't been kind to pilots in the past decade.

I won't try to defend any of our MEC Chairs from Whiteford to current. I will say we control them better since Whiteford and keep an eye on them. Heppner is currently trying to use ALPA policy to become a salesmen of current contract negotiations and results. We'll see how that plays out but I guarantee you many eyes are watching.


Nor will the CAL pilots, or the process, for that matter.

On that we'll agree!

Name a tangible accomplishment of any of our MEC Chairs since we've become ALPA? How about any of yours since 9/11? The RLA and economic circumstances haven't been kind to pilots in the past decade.

Nor will the CAL pilots, or the process, for that matter.

Sure.........

United got rid of LCC work rules including going from 11 to 12 (non-movable domestic) reserve days off on reserve and gained trip pay protection in 2008. The last UAL MC fought and improved over what the company originally was planning WRT pass travel. The UAL-MEC fought the substandard SOC training in court and the Hill in 2011. That is the reason United pilots are now getting retro training and procedures review back to SOC phase one. It also sent a message to management that the UAL MEC will fight and has helped with other issues like EAP/HIMS, jumpseat and safety/training issues. The current MC has filed two promising profit sharing expedited grievances regarding underpayment of United pilots and status quo/TPA violations by management.

United got rid of LCC work rules...Fair enough.