Airline Pilot Forums

CAL MEC POSITION REPORT JULY 13, 2012

FROM THE CHAIRMAN
On Wednesday, Capt. Moak, Capt. Heppner, the JNC Co-Chairs and I met with NMB Board member Linda Puchala and our two mediators to discuss the status of negotiations and what to do to move the contract negotiations to conclusion. Nothing would be better for our pilots, our Company, our passengers and our industry than to wrap this up so that we can begin making real progress toward becoming one great airline. At that meeting, we expressed our desire to complete the contract negotiations and obtain a quality contract for our pilots. We also expressed our concern that management’s actions have not demonstrated the same commitment. The following day, the NMB met with management to examine and discuss their views.

Earlier today, we were advised that at this point, there are no new negotiating sessions scheduled with the NMB, although the future schedule will be addressed further next week. Additionally, we were able to confirm that Ms. Puchala will speak to the CAL and UAL MECs in a joint session of the MECs next Wednesday. We will continue to stress with the NMB the importance of reaching agreement on a JCBA and the union’s willingness to fully engage in the process.

As we have repeated throughout negotiations, the fact is that until the contract and seniority list integration are complete, we cannot truthfully call ourselves one airline or one pilot group. While we are most certainly a unified pilot group of more than 12,000 pilots working together to achieve common goals, we are still independently working under separate collective bargaining agreements for separate subsidiary airlines. This is true for every unionized work group at either legacy CAL or legacy UAL. No one is working under a joint contract yet and as a result, subsidiary CAL continues to be the corporation we work for. Sadly, while we are united, we are not yet United.

I re-emphasize this point today in response to this week’s Pilot Bulletin regarding pilot PAs, signed by Capt. Arnold. At a time when our passengers are dissatisfied with the product purchased, our airline is operationally dysfunctional and employee morale is as low as that seen during the Lorenzo years, management chooses to focus on finding fault with honest, truthful PAs instead of directing their attentions to real problems. In a move akin to recent claims that operational deficiencies resulting from their habitual and continued staffing shortfalls are our pilots’ fault, they now claim that our “best customers” are annoyed when we tell the truth: our flights are flown by Continental crews. No matter how much we wish it were true, we are not yet one big happy family. I travel a lot in the back of airplanes, shoulder to shoulder with our best customers, our average customers and our infrequent customers, and management needs to accept the inconvenient truth. Our customers are not angered by our PAs. They are angry at how they have been treated and at what management has done to our airlines. They are mad long before they get on the airplane. Our fellow employees, passengers, shareholders and Wall Street are savvy enough to see past the shiny paint jobs and sign changes. They do not need our PAs to tell them that all is not well.

The Pilot Bulletin says that pilots should be mindful of the guidelines stated in FOM 3.80.1. I agree, and would like to make note of the second bullet point in that section, which instructs pilots to TELL THE TRUTH. That being said, it is important that you know that Flight Operations management says that they may discipline pilots who continue to be truthful with their PAs, citing insubordination. If you are given such an instruction, you may decide to follow it, but it is ironic that the very process that they threaten to discipline pilots for saying that our flights are proudly operated by Continental pilots is the process established in Section 19 of the “AGREEMENT BETWEEN CONTINENTAL AIRLINES, INC AND THE AIRLINE PILOTS IN THE SERVICE OF CONTINENTAL AIRLINES, INC. AS REPRESENTED BY THE AIRLINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL.” Like I said, the situation is ironic and more than a bit sad given the real problems our airlines face. As a last commentary on the subject, any representation needed by our pilots will come from a union volunteer and ALPA staff working with the Continental MEC.

Last today, your MEC will be meeting next week in Virginia to conduct your business. I also remind you that the Strike Authorization Ballot closes next Tuesday, so please take the time to vote and ensure your voice is heard.

Have a good weekend and Fly Safe.

One Union, One Voice

Capt. Jay Pierce
CAL MEC Chairman

Suckahs!

Love Management

Sounds to me like the NMB will not be releasing us anytime soon.

The gardener once said, "Fly safe, fly proud, and fly the contract".

Nope...release is not on the agenda with this administration.

we suck--- next week-- they will get together to discuss future negotiations .. after summer-- sweet

While I wish for the best for you guys because what happens with your contract impacts us all, are you really surprised? Did you really believe in a election year less than 4 months from election day in the middle of the busy travel season that there was a chance in hell they would release you?

If you want released there is an massage parlor next to Hoot County in IAH. They will "release" you. Other than that you will probably never get released. Time for us all to get our hands dirty. We have games we can play too.

While I wish for the best for you guys because what happens with your contract impacts us all, are you really surprised? Did you really believe in a election year less than 4 months from election day in the middle of the busy travel season that there was a chance in hell they would release you?

If you want released there is an massage parlor next to Hoot County in IAH. They will "release" you. Other than that you will probably never get released. Time for us all to get our hands dirty. We have games we can play too.

+1...on the games we can play too..now, the 64k question.....who wants to play? And who is gonna coach us?

we suck--- next week-- they will get together to discuss future negotiations .. after summer-- sweet

I sure agree with you here skippy.

Nope...release is not on the agenda with this administration.

Wow. Did anyone else hear (read) this?

I am so glad Obama is supporting us in our time of need.

we suck--- next week-- they will get together to discuss future negotiations .. after summer-- sweet

ALPA in general can be described as "non confrontational."

The leadership that endures within ALPA can best be described as "compromising and accomodating."

ALPA sees value in NOT picking fights or finishing them. It's just too darn expensive.

if ALPA wanted to solve the RJ/large RJ (scope) problem it would have. Instead of doing that as an industry, ALPA lets us fight it out down at airline X, Y, and Z. Now that airline X and Y are merging, and having this scope battle that ALPA induced where is ALPA?

Oh yeah.............ALPA is sending out blast mail updates that update us on nothing. This weeks update is the same as last weeks update, which was like last month's update, which was like the update I got around Christmas time, which was like the update I got last year, which was like the last 589 updates.

Nothing to read here..... move along.... just pay your dues..... shut up and color.....Thank you, may I have another.

if ALPA wanted to solve the RJ/large RJ (scope) problem it would have. Instead of doing that as an industry, ALPA lets us fight it out down at airline X, Y, and Z. Now that airline X and Y are merging, and having this scope battle that ALPA induced where is ALPA?

Do you really want a national union dictating your contract priorities and strategies to you, or would you rather have your own negotiating committee, as directed by your own MEC, do that?

I never saw a scope section signed by ALPA that wasn't first ratified by the pilot group for which it was negotiated, by the negotiating committee elected by the pilot groups MEC. So stop tilting at windmills and blaming ALPA.

ALPA national is a resource, but its up to each pilot group to determine how they choose to use it.

Speaking of which, where the hell is my update from Heppner? All I got last night was some stupid, redundant pap about nothing.
Where's the UAL ALPA side of the story, Jay? ::ticked again, as usual::

SCR

Enter Content

Nope...release is not on the agenda with this administration until after the November election and they are safe for a second term.

There, fixed it for you.:(

At least cal put one out. Uals didnt relly even mention the nmb meetings
We suck. Standby to standby....

At least cal put one out. Uals didnt relly even mention the nmb meetings
We suck. Standby to standby....

I'm not sure CAL's MEC did anything other than change the date on the letterhead. It seemed to read like every update that I've read for the last 3 years.

Do you really want a national union dictating your contract priorities and strategies to you, or would you rather have your own negotiating committee, as directed by your own MEC, do that?

I never saw a scope section signed by ALPA that wasn't first ratified by the pilot group for which it was negotiated, by the negotiating committee elected by the pilot groups MEC. So stop tilting at windmills and blaming ALPA.

ALPA national is a resource, but its up to each pilot group to determine how they choose to use it.

( My apologies..posting with the phone and it doesn't seem to allow me to break up this post in paragraphs) Fine points of the contract should be each NC's perogative. However, the fact that two major legacy ALPA contracts were opened and being negotiaed was THE perfect opportunity to simultaniously bring forward to both mgmts a common scope plan that reigns in both the RJs but JV's as well. What mgmt fears most is not a specific scope clause per se but a scope clause that puts them at a relative competitive disadvantage. Granted, AA is the wild card , but ALPA NATL should have AT LEAST broached this subject with the 3 MEC'S of both airlines to maximize leverage on this issue. The very issue that has killed this profession in so many ways the last 10-15 years.IMHO, and they FAILED to capitalize on this opportunity. One could make the argument that its representation of RJ pilot groups legally prevented this from happening. That being said, and however unlikely, I suppose there was nothing stopping the aforementioned MEC'S from getting together on their own volition. At the end of the day it was a valuable opportunity that was wasted.

The very issue that has killed this profession in so many ways the last 10-15 years....And therein is the problem. While it may have killed OUR profession, it didn't kill ALPA-N's profession. In fact their representation has skyrocketed under the outsourced model. Of the "over 53,000" that ALPA currently represents, 23,879 are not in legacy airlines. ALPA-N's job security and compensation is up.

Alpa > About ALPA > Who We Are > Pilot Groups (http://www.alpa.org/Home/WhoWeAre/PilotGroups/tabid/2239/Default.aspx)

It's like having ONE divorce attorney for BOTH people...just doesn't work.

It's like having ONE divorce attorney for BOTH people...just doesn't work.

It does for the attorney and for apla. Has ANY employee of alpa national from the lowest desk jockey to the alpa president ever taken a cut in wages, benefits, or retirement since 9/11?

Nothing really to report. The entire process, both the rla process and the jcba negotiations are completely out of our control. While i cant say im surprised, the system is outdated, purely disingenuine towards labor, badly broken and needs ammended. It appears the NMB and puchala want to get a deal done, but are to chicken sh+* to let the process run its course, thereby giving the company a blank check for delaying yet again... The company will get a jcba when they absolutely are forced to for other financial or beneficial reasons, and not a minute before. The nmb, by not allowing a release, basically endorses this procrastination and behavio and undermines the process simultaneously. Really sad. Let the fn process work, if a peb has to be instituted, then so be it, but at least there are more tools at our ready then.

At least cal put one out. Uals didnt relly even mention the nmb meetings.Dear United Pilots:

Here is where we are in JCBA negotiations: Our last mediated session of negotiations was June 30. There, with the National Mediation Board’s direct involvement including the attendance of the NMB Chairman, we came the closest to concluding negotiations that we have ever been. The degrees of separation were reduced. And while we remain under an informal gag order from the NMB that we have been very careful to follow, it leaves a vacuum of information for you. You may safely assume that the remaining issues in the contract are the obvious ones, including scope.

I informed you that ALPA had its follow-up status conference with the NMB on Wednesday, and management had its conference on Thursday. While we obviously were not at management’s conference, the NMB informed us yesterday that they had that conference with them and will have an additional conversation with management. In the meantime, the JNC has been preparing to renew negotiations as soon as management is ready. We do not require the NMB to continue negotiations – only a motivated partner.

There currently are no future scheduled negotiations, but that should not be misconstrued. This week, the two MECs are in individual and joint sessions all week, as was scheduled earlier in the year, so no negotiations were expected anyway. The JNC stands ready to negotiate anytime and anywhere, and sessions may be scheduled at a moment’s notice.

We remain under the NMB’s process for a negotiated agreement. We are complying with their requests and are prepared to resume negotiations at any time. As pilots, we like to be in control and analytically understand everything around us. However, the NMB is in the best position to determine our next steps. They have not yet informed us of their intentions for us. But we are confident they will use all the tools available to them under the RLA to assist us in achieving a JCBA.

We must be patient and prepared for any eventuality. We must continue to be smart and professional in our everyday dealings with the company. Management continues to look for any chinks in our unity, and inactivity makes us the most vulnerable. The pilots remain the better characters in these proceedings and will continue to be so.

As soon as there is more information to pass on to you, we will do so. In the meantime, keep your heads up and do what you do so well – safely delivering our passengers to their destinations each and every day.

We are United,

Chairman, United Master Executive Council

As long as individuals we keep voting in people like Scott Walker and Paul Ryan you can only expect the assault on organized labor to continue. Again look no further than the results under the Bush presidency and the changes to process since Obama took office. It was Bush that only allowed a release when the company wanted it (example NWA AMFA). It was Obama's appointee that was able to get the voting rules changed to a more pro employee election process. It was this administration that the Spirit strike took place.

Do you really want a national union dictating your contract priorities and strategies to you, or would you rather have your own negotiating committee, as directed by your own MEC, do that?

I never saw a scope section signed by ALPA that wasn't first ratified by the pilot group for which it was negotiated, by the negotiating committee elected by the pilot groups MEC. So stop tilting at windmills and blaming ALPA.

ALPA national is a resource, but its up to each pilot group to determine how they choose to use it.

( My apologies..posting with the phone and it doesn't seem to allow me to break up this post in paragraphs) Fine points of the contract should be each NC's perogative. However, the fact that two major legacy ALPA contracts were opened and being negotiaed was THE perfect opportunity to simultaniously bring forward to both mgmts a common scope plan that reigns in both the RJs but JV's as well. What mgmt fears most is not a specific scope clause per se but a scope clause that puts them at a relative competitive disadvantage. Granted, AA is the wild card , but ALPA NATL should have AT LEAST broached this subject with the 3 MEC'S of both airlines to maximize leverage on this issue. The very issue that has killed this profession in so many ways the last 10-15 years.IMHO, and they FAILED to capitalize on this opportunity. One could make the argument that its representation of RJ pilot groups legally prevented this from happening. That being said, and however unlikely, I suppose there was nothing stopping the aforementioned MEC'S from getting together on their own volition. At the end of the day it was a valuable opportunity that was wasted.

What you are talking about would yield a reduction in ALPA dues-paying members...now you can answer your own question.

As long as individuals we keep voting in people like Scott Walker and Paul Ryan you can only expect the assault on organized labor to continue. Again look no further than the results under the Bush presidency and the changes to process since Obama took office. It was Bush that only allowed a release when the company wanted it (example NWA AMFA). It was Obama's appointee that was able to get the voting rules changed to a more pro employee election process. It was this administration that the Spirit strike took place.

Let's minimize Liberal Drivel and avoid thread drift please. Nobody want's to read about YOUR political beliefs whilst we are negotiating a contract under the watch of one of the most pro-labor Presidents this country has see but yet, our negotiations continue.

If I remember right the rules of this blog are NO political and religious discussions. I got warned by the administrators awhile back about a political comment I made.

Here's the deal on the contract, in my opinion, the NMB are going to tell us to follow Delta. What's good for them is good for us.

If we can not discus the process of negotiations under the governments RLA, or how the members are appointed to the board that makes the ultimate choice as to letting our group enter self help where is the line? The sole point of my post is so many are frustrated with the process but can not come to grips with why the process is what it is.


Does anyone know how long Republic has been in mediation and have they got a response back from their request for a release?

What you are talking about would yield a reduction in ALPA dues-paying members...now you can answer your own question.

That may be a good off the cuff answer but I'm not so sure that it is accurate. The demand for seats is a constant..for this discussion. The question is what airframe will be flying those seats...and who will be flying those airframes. The plethora of 50 seaters and the dues paying positions they represent will be history..sooner rather than later. The question now becomes who flies the larger 70 plus seaters. Wouldn't ALPA , in theory, want those postions filled by the higher earning mailine folks rather than the lower wage of the regional? I dunno, your statement may or may not be so clearcut when the theoretical math is accomplished. Most importantly, I still maintain it was a wasted opportunity to put forth a common legacy mainline strategy that would have a higher chance of success than going it alone, which is what the UAL CAL JNC are trying to do now.

I am so glad Obama is supporting us in our time of need.Put yourself in his position. Would you risk damage to the economy, and alienate potential Democratic voters by putting ramp rats and mechanics out of work during a pilots' strike, all for the cause a labor group, airline pilots, who probably cast four out of five votes for Republicans?

He could pressure the NMB to declare an impasse, let us strike during the GOP and Democratic conventions last month, win a new labor agreement -- and then in November the majority of pilots would trek to the polls and vote for Romney anyway.

Put yourself in his position. Would you risk damage to the economy, and alienate potential Democratic voters by putting ramp rats and mechanics out of work during a pilots' strike, all for the cause a labor group, airline pilots, who probably cast four out of five votes for Republicans?

He could pressure the NMB to declare an impasse, let us strike during the GOP and Democratic conventions last month, win a new labor agreement -- and then in November the majority of pilots would trek to the polls and vote for Romney anyway.

At sUAL, my own unscientific sampling shows that if Nancy Pelosi or Karl Marx ran for president, they would get 90% of the pilot's vote against any Republican.

At sUAL, my own unscientific sampling shows that if Nancy Pelosi or Karl Marx ran for president, they would get 90% of the pilot's vote against any Republican.

Or we could vote for the Republicans and screw ourselves even MORE. Maybe a "Romeny" presidency could ensure an age 70 retirement. Wouldn't that be grand????:rolleyes:

Let's minimize Liberal Drivel and avoid thread drift please. Nobody want's to read about YOUR political beliefs whilst we are negotiating a contract under the watch of one of the most pro-labor Presidents this country has see but yet, our negotiations continue.

But you can continue to spout your "anti-union" drivel and THAT is okay on an airline forum. I'd love to see those that support the "right" go without a union and see how well they'd do for themselves. My bet is management would have them at minimum wage within a few months.......................then they could complain how the "union" didn't support them...............:eek:

...I'd love to see those that support the "right" go without a union and see how well they'd do for themselves. My bet is management would have them at minimum wage within a few months.......................

You are correct. That would be very likely to happen. Especially in a fiercely competitive industry that has an over-supply of pilot labor.

I also think you would find that most "Republican" pilots understand that there are much bigger, macro issues affecting the country than the minor pilot issues, "drivel" if you will, that are tossed about on an anonymous blog site. We are an extremely small slice.

But you can continue to spout your "anti-union" drivel and THAT is okay on an airline forum. I'd love to see those that support the "right" go without a union and see how well they'd do for themselves. My bet is management would have them at minimum wage within a few months.......................then they could complain how the "union" didn't support them...............:eek:

Have not had a Union for going on 4 years, or job for that matter, doing just fine... Thank you! Union and Company are neither fans of mine. Oh, and if the contract has ZERO longevity for furloughed pilots, I doubt I will ever be a happy union member again... Are you paying attention NC?

But you can continue to spout your "anti-union" drivel and THAT is okay on an airline forum. I'd love to see those that support the "right" go without a union and see how well they'd do for themselves. My bet is management would have them at minimum wage within a few months.......................then they could complain how the "union" didn't support them...............:eek:

There you go again...personal attacks, name calling. I guess this is what most would call Liberal tolerance? I happen to lean to the right and that makes me "anti-union" Why is that?? I'm a dues paying ALPA member and proudly display my pin on my tie. You know, eventually, if you keep calling people names that happen to disagree with your politics you will likely be labeled unstable or at the very least a crank.

You are correct. That would be very likely to happen. Especially in a fiercely competitive industry that has an over-supply of pilot labor.

I also think you would find that most "Republican" pilots understand that there are much bigger, macro issues affecting the country than the minor pilot issues, "drivel" if you will, that are tossed about on an anonymous blog site. We are an extremely small slice.
Wow dude.... US union pilots are some of the lowest paid pilots in the world. What will your precious union do for you if your company goes Tango Uniform? Back to the right seat and 30 bucks an hour and short call reserve for you.

Maybe you can ask some TWA guys what their union can do for them. The unions ARE the problem friend. Thanks to a bunch of old fart senior sell outs at the legacies you sold out on scope for a few pennies screwing your own fellow pilots and future generations to come. Thanks to guys like you, certain guys have been sitting right seat in an RJ for 6 years raking in a whopping 40k. Thanks pal. Screw ALPA.

How old are you by the way,63 64? Thanks for the age 65 gem ALPA and old farts everywhere. You won't be missed.

Wow dude.... US union pilots are some of the lowest paid pilots in the world. What will your precious union do for you if your company goes Tango Uniform? Back to the right seat and 30 bucks an hour and short call reserve for you.

Maybe you can ask some TWA guys what their union can do for them. The unions ARE the problem friend. Thanks to a bunch of old fart senior sell outs at the legacies you sold out on scope for a few pennies screwing your own fellow pilots and future generations to come. Thanks to guys like you, certain guys have been sitting right seat in an RJ for 6 years raking in a whopping 40k. Thanks pal. Screw ALPA.

How old are you by the way,63 64? Thanks for the age 65 gem ALPA and old farts everywhere. You won't be missed.

You missed the point because unions are a problem from an institutional standpoint. But since you brought up scope and old guys...

You can't force uncompetitive scope in the collective bargaining environment unless you're willing to trade an equivalent.

To wit, you can fly all large airplanes for next to nothing, or you can fly a mix of small and large aircraft in the industry for something. But you won't and can't force any company or industry to accept an uncompetitive scope provision unless you're willing to trade the equivalent cost. Nor is it in your best, long-term interest because you'll likely be out of a job sooner rather than later.

Ciao, Junior

There you go again...personal attacks, name calling. I guess this is what most would call Liberal tolerance? I happen to lean to the right and that makes me "anti-union" Why is that?? I'm a dues paying ALPA member and proudly display my pin on my tie. You know, eventually, if you keep calling people names that happen to disagree with your politics you will likely be labeled unstable or at the very least a crank.

But you vote AGAINST labor? You call us "liberals" (and now think if I give my views I'm a crank or unstable (isn't that namecalling????), so if I call you you "far right" or "anti-union" (is the "far right" supportive of unions? Last I saw they were AGAINST them), I'm calling you names............oh brother. Displaying your union pin while voting against organized labor is typical of the far right. They want the protections but not what comes with it................ I just flew with a "very conservative" guy who was against everything labor stands for, but thought he didn't make enough money and deserved MORE pay and benefits.............yet that is EXACTLY what he votes AGAINST. By the end of the trip I think he thought he was doing nothing but shooting himself in the foot and wondering how that happened............

But you can continue to spout your "anti-union" drivel and THAT is okay on an airline forum. I'd love to see those that support the "right" go without a union and see how well they'd do for themselves. My bet is management would have them at minimum wage within a few months.......................then they could complain how the "union" didn't support them...............:eek:

There you go again...personal attacks, name calling. I guess this is what most would call Liberal tolerance? I happen to lean to the right and that makes me "anti-union" Why is that?? I'm a dues paying ALPA member and proudly display my pin on my tie. You know, eventually, if you keep calling people names that happen to disagree with your politics you will likely be labeled unstable or at the very least a crank.

If you are going to name call, you should at least make an attempt not to sound like an angry high school senior who has the world figured out. He's not so good at that.

Democrat or republican will have zero affect on our union and job. Look to the past and see. ALPA is broken. The RLA is broken. Our government is broken (with either party in control). Wasn't Clinton the last president to stop an airline strike?

Democrat or republican will have zero affect on our union and job. Look to the past and see. ALPA is broken. The RLA is broken. Our government is broken (with either party in control). Wasn't Clinton the last president to stop an airline strike?

100% agree, RLA has outlived its' use and perceived need, should be abolished over a 10 year period or less...R and D leadership... very little difference!

Democrat or republican will have zero affect on our union and job. Look to the past and see. ALPA is broken. The RLA is broken. Our government is broken (with either party in control). Wasn't Clinton the last president to stop an airline strike?

I thinks it's best not to confuse "ewrbasedpilot" with facts. He's gonna screw himself into the ceiling. Once he get's done spewing out liberal talking points, maybe we can get back to the original thread.

I thinks it's best not to confuse "ewrbasedpilot" with facts. He's gonna screw himself into the ceiling. Once he get's done spewing out liberal talking points, maybe we can get back to the original thread.

I have all the "facts" I need and am not one bit confused. Keep voting against your job....I hope you get your wish and lose it or maybe you'll get even luckier and Romney can outsource it for you...............:eek:

............Wasn't Clinton the last president to stop an airline strike?

Yep...........with the airline union ASKING for his intervention.

Democrat or republican will have zero affect on our union and job. Look to the past and see. ALPA is broken. The RLA is broken. Our government is broken (with either party in control). Wasn't Clinton the last president to stop an airline strike?

I completely disagree with that statement. If you look at the facts one party has made unions less affective at every opportunity. Fact is if you look at union membership it has declined at the same rate as union effectiveness (industrial action). Unfortunately also if you look at the fact that union membership has declined at the same exact rate as the income growth of the middle class. Those are facts and not left or right talking points.

I believe it was a former republican presidential candidate that had the position that airline contacts should be done via baseball style arbitration. Is that path going to lead to better scope and working conditions? Again if you don't like the process you need to look at who you put in place that can make the changes be it as LEC rep or your state senators.

Yep...........with the airline union ASKING for his intervention.

I have heard that before, but I have never been able to confirm that. So
I'm going to have to check with my sources at AMR if that was the case. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the concept that any union would ASK a president to order them back to work. Does that imply that APA was worried their pilots weren't prepared financially for a strike and they were worried about holding a strong picket line. Maybe you can enlighten the "great unwashed".

By the way, since you know so much information about what's good for the airline industry; can you remind me under whose watch the Airline Deregulation Bill was signed...because there are a lot of experts that say that that bill was largely responsible for the explosive growth of start-up airlines with NON-UNION Employees which put downward (that's economists speak)on OUR wages.

If you are in the middle class you have no representation in Washington. That being said why would I vote for a party that has utter contempt for labor? Flame away, but please don't use that FREEDOM loving BS.

If you are in the middle class you have no representation in Washington. That being said why would I vote for a party that has utter contempt for labor?

That sir is one of the most outrageous statements I have ever heard. Next thing your going to say is that the rich aren't paying their fair share.

That sir is one of the most outrageous statements I have ever heard. Next thing your going to say is that the rich aren't paying their fair share.
Did you go to work for Frank in '83 or '84? Will you be the first to cross the line if the pilots at UCH are allowed to strike? Are you a trust fund baby who thought it would be cool to be a pilot? You live in some fantasy world if you can't agree that there has been an attack on labor the last 30 years. And yes, both Dem's and Rep's are responsible for it.

Did you go to work for Frank in '83 or '84? Will you be the first to cross the line if the pilots at UCH are allowed to strike? Are you a trust fund baby who thought it would be cool to be a pilot? You live in some fantasy world if you can't agree that there has been an attack on labor the last 30 years. And yes, both Dem's and Rep's are responsible for it.

Nope. Blue Collar, Single-Parent raised. Had no money for college so I joined the Marines right out of High School. I didn't go to college until AFTER I came home from Vietnam. No fantesy island or trust fund baby - just the school of hard knocks. I worked my way thru college doing every kind of crappy job and was happy to have the work. Guessing in advance who will or who won't cross a picket line is a fools errand. It's like combat, you won't know who the brave are until that first round comes wizzing or your head. Spare me with your idealistic liberal views and opinions of people you know nothing about.

Nope. Blue Collar, Single-Parent raised. Had no money for college so I joined the Marines right out of High School. I didn't go to college until AFTER I came home from Vietnam. No fantesy island or trust fund baby - just the school of hard knocks. I worked my way thru college doing every kind of crappy job and was happy to have the work. Guessing in advance who will or who won't cross a picket line is a fools errand. It's like combat, you won't know who the brave are until that first round comes wizzing or your head. Spare me with your idealistic liberal views and opinions of people you know nothing about.

Social issues aside. Ask yourself this one question. Who do you think management wants to win the election?

Social issues aside. Ask yourself this one question. Who do you think management wants to win the election?

Doesn't matter to them, as long as either side can be purchased and that have the most purchasing power.

Nope. Blue Collar, Single-Parent raised. Had no money for college so I joined the Marines right out of High School. I didn't go to college until AFTER I came home from Vietnam. No fantesy island or trust fund baby - just the school of hard knocks. I worked my way thru college doing every kind of crappy job and was happy to have the work. Guessing in advance who will or who won't cross a picket line is a fools errand. It's like combat, you won't know who the brave are until that first round comes wizzing or your head. Spare me with your idealistic liberal views and opinions of people you know nothing about.
Where are you getting "idealistic liberal views" from. I've made it clear that the MIDDLE class is getting screwed by both parties. The 1% own the government, and most judges so if you are allied with the 1% that's your business. Vietnam? How well do you think Iraq/Afghanistan would have been sold if there was a draft. Tax break in time of war? Really? Come on Mr. road of hard knocks.

Yep...........with the airline union ASKING for his intervention.

I am having trouble finding out anything that backs up your statement that the Union ASKED Bill Clinton to order the pilots back to work. This is representative of what I have come up with:

Just moments after American Airlines' pilots declared a potentially-crippling strike, President Clinton exercised his executive power and ordered a 60-day mediation period. While American Airlines' management and air travelers welcomed Clinton's action, the pilots' union wanted the president to stay out of the dispute. Elizabeth Farnsworth examines the president's action with Prof. Joseph Blasi of Rutgers University and Jerry Glass, a consultant who advises airline management on labor issues. But if you have the "smoking gun" on this, please post it. Otherwise I'm just going to conclude that your statement saying the UNION REQUESTED Bill Clinton to order the pilots back to work is baseless and without merit.

Doesn't matter to them, as long as either side can be purchased and that have the most purchasing power.

I bet if you asked, they would tell you it matters VERY MUCH to them.

I am having trouble finding out anything that backs up your statement that the Union ASKED Bill Clinton to order the pilots back to work. .................... Otherwise I'm just going to conclude that your statement saying the UNION REQUESTED Bill Clinton to order the pilots back to work is baseless and without merit.

I stand corrected..........it was the FA's union:

A New Era?

Last Thanksgiving, with much fanfare and publicity, Clinton intervened on the side of the union in the flight attendants strike at American Airlines. Under political pressure, American capitulated to union demands. The Association of Professional Flight Attendants, which represents workers at other major airlines as well as American, immediately hailed Clinton’s intervention as a victory that would “set the tone” for future negotiations in the industry. Clinton justified his action on the grounds that the Thanksgiving holiday was a peak travel time, and the public would be greatly distressed by continued interruption of flights. Labor Secretary Robert Reich said that this intervention was based on unique “extenuating circumstances” and that the Clinton administration did not plan to get involved in other labor disputes except in extreme circumstances. In contrast, the AFL-CIO lauded the president’s action as the beginning of a new era in which management would no longer have the upper hand in labor disputes.

The president’s pro-union intervention in the American Airlines strike was soon followed by a similar intervention in a labor dispute at United Airlines. While American flight attendants were on strike, machinists at United were “working to rule” to protest United’s refusal to agree to a union plan to acquire majority ownership of United. The union proposed to pay for the buyout merely by accepting some wage and work rule concessions which would reduce United’s labor costs. Clinton dispatched Reich and Transportation Secretary Federico Pena to pressure United into agreeing to reopen talks with the unions on the buyout.


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Of course this probably means nothing to you as it is "liberal drivel" and shows the dems would actually do nothing to help labor, right?

"The Association of Professional Flight Attendants, which represents workers at other major airlines as well as American, immediately hailed Clinton’s intervention as a victory that would “set the tone” for future negotiations in the industry. Clinton justified his action on the grounds that the Thanksgiving holiday was a peak travel time, and the public would be greatly distressed by continued interruption of flights. Labor Secretary Robert Reich said that this intervention was based on unique “extenuating circumstances” and that the Clinton administration did not plan to get involved in other labor disputes except in extreme circumstances."
It's not clear to me that the FA's union actually pressured Clinton or if they just "praised" him for their action. If, in fact they did pressure the president to stop a legal strike, then does that mean you support the right of other unions to decide whether or not they will ALLOW another union to strike on their property? Gee, silly me, all this time I thought a workers right to strike was the result of a vote of the workers of that union to authorize a strike. Now you are telling me that, in the case of UCH, we should get a strike authorization from the TWU, AFA and the Teamsters. I am confused now

I stand corrected..........it was the FA's union:

A New Era?

Last Thanksgiving, with much fanfare and publicity, Clinton intervened on the side of the union in the flight attendants strike at American Airlines. Under political pressure, American capitulated to union demands. The Association of Professional Flight Attendants, which represents workers at other major airlines as well as American, immediately hailed Clinton’s intervention as a victory that would “set the tone” for future negotiations in the industry. Clinton justified his action on the grounds that the Thanksgiving holiday was a peak travel time, and the public would be greatly distressed by continued interruption of flights. Labor Secretary Robert Reich said that this intervention was based on unique “extenuating circumstances” and that the Clinton administration did not plan to get involved in other labor disputes except in extreme circumstances. In contrast, the AFL-CIO lauded the president’s action as the beginning of a new era in which management would no longer have the upper hand in labor disputes.

The president’s pro-union intervention in the American Airlines strike was soon followed by a similar intervention in a labor dispute at United Airlines. While American flight attendants were on strike, machinists at United were “working to rule” to protest United’s refusal to agree to a union plan to acquire majority ownership of United. The union proposed to pay for the buyout merely by accepting some wage and work rule concessions which would reduce United’s labor costs. Clinton dispatched Reich and Transportation Secretary Federico Pena to pressure United into agreeing to reopen talks with the unions on the buyout.


-------------------------------------------

Of course this probably means nothing to you as it is "liberal drivel" and shows the dems would actually do nothing to help labor, right?


You want "liberal drivel?" Here it is:
2007: Barack Obama promised to "walk on that picket line" if workers are denied the right to bargain - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA9KC8SMu3o&feature=em-share_video_user)