Airline Pilot Forums

Originally Posted by Aviation Week and Space Technology
SkyWest Concerned About 50-Seater Fleet Under Delta’s New Feeder Plan
Aviation Daily Jul16, 2012 , p. 1.01
Andrew Compart



Delta Air Lines ’ plan to encourage its regional airline partners to end their 50-seat regional jet flying before feeder contracts expire could run into resistance at SkyWest , the largest regional operator in the U.S., unless the affected aircraft can continue to generate revenue.

Delta plans to offer its regional airline partners contracts for new or additional 76-seat flying as an incentive to break current capacity supply agreements and reduce 50-seat regional jet operations, Delta’s pilots union says. Enabling that plan was a major motivator for the new labor contract that Delta and the AirLinePilotsAssociation ( ALPA ) finalized in June.

SkyWest CFO Michael Kraupp, however, tells Aviation Week that such an offer would not be acceptable unless an alternative is provided for the 50-seat jets.

“We have no interest in parking aircraft,” Kraupp says. “I don’t think you can make enough on dual-class aircraft coming in to justify the costs in parking the aircraft.”

Various DeltaConnection carriers currently operate about 345 50-seat regional jets for Delta, but the airline wants to reduce the number to 125 as soon as the end of 2015 because high fuel costs have made the aircraft increasingly uneconomical and many of the engines are coming due for expensive overhauls.

Delta is contractually obligated to operate 311 of its 50-seat aircraft through the end of 2015 and 155 through 2019, according to ALPA .

SkyWest subsidiaries SkyWest Airlines and ExpressJet operate about 90 and 60 Bombardier CRJ200 aircraft , respectively, for Delta, under 15-year contracts that Kraupp says do not expire until 2020. Kraupp is emphatic that Delta does not have any rights in the current contract to tell SkyWest to cease the 50-seater operations before the agreements expire.

Apart from SkyWest ’s two divisions, Delta also contracts 50-seat jet feed from Pinnacle Airlines, which is operating under Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection with Delta financing, and from Republic Airways subsidiary Chautauqua Airlines. Delta’s own subsidiary, Comair, also operates 50-seat jets .

Pinnacle, however, is the most venerable of these feeders , with 141 CRJ200s assigned to the Delta contract .

Adding color ....Maintenance costs compound the problem. As reported earlier this week, data compiled with Aviation Week Intelligence Network’s MRO Prospector tool showed that three of every four of the GE CF34-3 engines will need to be overhauled within the next three years at a total cost of more than $1 billion, if those aircraft remain in service. But Prospector also shows that nearly every Rolls-Royce AE 3007 will need to be overhauled over the same time period, some of them more than once, at a projected cost exceeding $1.4 billion for all the engines’ operators.

The AE 3007 powers Embraer’s 37-seat ERJ-135, 44-seat ERJ-140 and 50-seat ERJ-145. It also is used for the Cessna Citation X business jet.

If SkyWest subsidiary ExpressJet, the largest operator of the ERJ, were to retain its entire fleet of these aircraft, it would need to overhaul all of the engines within the next three years at a projected cost topping $470 million. U.S.-based SkyWest says ExpressJet engine overhaul expenses are reimbursed as incurred under the regional airline’s contracts to operate the jets for Delta Air Lines and United Airlines.

The Delta PWA is between ALPA and Delta....Skywest and the other lift providers aren't a party to that agreement. Delta can only use incentives to get out of agreements they signed. If the price is right, Skywest Inc. will help park 50s early....If the price isn't right, they will fly them until the original agreement runs out.

The biggest problem with the section 1 ratios and draw down compliance is that a regional can simply say no. I posted about this earlier. Now Skywest or the offending carrier is operating as an alter-ego carrier of Delta. The main problem you have with this, is that if DALPA files a grievance over this, the remedy to comply with mainline section one will require a scope relax, or a regional SLI between Skywest(or the offending carrier) and Delta mainline. This was the ultimate result of the Colgan/Pinnacle grievance when Colgan was operating as an alter ego of Pinnacle. You either allow them to operate the scope violation or merge the seniority lists, there is no longer the cease and desist option.

The additional 76 seaters obviously won't go to them, meaning fewer "heavy" RJs for SKW and ASA, with fewer associated pay increases. Gojets will love them. I think that may equal tough times ahead for Comair and PNCL.

Joe and Mesaba,

It is looking like a repeat of errors in C2K, when previous contractual commitments made the Delta PWA economically unenforceable. IMHO they should have merged the lists and ALPA should have fought for it.

I think we understand where this is probably going and it is unfortunate for ALPA members at Comair and the carriers Delta has some control over through bankruptcy.

Or, potentially nothing much happens. Under the PWA, "nothing" is an option. Perhaps it is the most viable option.

Joe and Mesaba,

It is looking like a repeat of errors in C2K, when previous contractual commitments made the Delta PWA economically unenforceable. IMHO they should have merged the lists and ALPA should have fought for it.

I think we understand where this is probably going and it is unfortunate for ALPA members at Comair and the carriers Delta has some control over through bankruptcy.

Or, potentially nothing much happens. Under the PWA, "nothing" is an option. Perhaps it is the most viable option.

Delta doesn't have the extra 76 seaters yet. If one airline like SKW balks by an extra 25 50 seaters over the cap, then maybe that will result in 25 fewer additional 76 seaters. So instead of 70 new ones, it could become 45.

Joe and Mesaba,

It is looking like a repeat of errors in C2K, when previous contractual commitments made the Delta PWA economically unenforceable. IMHO they should have merged the lists and ALPA should have fought for it.

I think we understand where this is probably going and it is unfortunate for ALPA members at Comair and the carriers Delta has some control over through bankruptcy.

Or, potentially nothing much happens. Under the PWA, "nothing" is an option. Perhaps it is the most viable option.
Correct, but Delta still has the ability to add 70 more 76 seat jets and can park or operate as many 50 seaters as they want, at any block hour ratio they want. The language in the PWA simply was not tight enough.

Not without pulling some 70's, which they will do in 2015. They can't use "any" BH ratio, but the contractual limits would allow some DCI growth from today's status quo.

Correct, but Delta still has the ability to add 70 more 76 seat jets and can park or operate as many 50 seaters as they want, at any block hour ratio they want. The language in the PWA simply was not tight enough.

No, there are caps. If one cap is known ahead of time to be violated, and the other planes haven't be ordered yet, good chance they will have to look at alternatives.

The Delta PWA is between ALPA and Delta....Skywest and the other lift providers aren't a party to that agreement. Delta can only use incentives to get out of agreements they signed. If the price is right, Skywest Inc. will help park 50s early....If the price isn't right, they will fly them until the original agreement runs out.

True dat... They can fly all the 50s they want. They just won't be flying them under the DAL umbrella.

Actually T, I think Joe's point is that if Skywest is not willing to modify their agreement then they get to "enjoy" flying the 50 seaters until their contracts expire. Some of those contracts run until 2015 and apparently some run to 2020.

At last count the total value of all those contracts was in the neighborhood of $28 Billion.

True dat... They can fly all the 50s they want. They just won't be flying them under the DAL umbrella.
What is the remedy if management doesn't comply with section 1 because the regionals are forcing looser scope limitations? What are the consequences if DALPA loses that grievance?

What is the remedy if management doesn't comply with section 1 because the regionals are forcing looser scope limitations? What are the consequences if DALPA loses that grievance?

Who knows? Not really my problem to come up with the solution. I would be amazed though if management didn't have some arrangement in place prior to signing an agreement with us. The fact is though is that they DID sign that agreement, and it is their problem as to how to remedy their agreements with SKYW and others. If they are unable to rectify those, then the 50s might just be around awhile longer. I would also find it hard to believe that SKYW would turn up their noses at additional 76s to hold DAL's feet to the fire to keep the dying 50s. I am pretty sure that if they did that they would watch their very lucrative arrangement with DAL go away in time as their contracts DO expire.

What grievance is there to lose? the company will not be able to add the additional 76s if they don't get rid of the 50s. That is easily enforceable. You seem to think they would be able to get the 76s on board AND keep the 50s?? I think that is bloody unlikely, and I can't imagine an arbitrator that would allow it, but I am sure ftb and a few others will be along shortly with the what-if, sky is falling scenarios to back up the paranoia...

My glass is half full, and 4% cooler this month.

Mesaba,

First, we do not know that management will not abide Section 1. They still have numerous options to comply.

Second, we do not know ALPA would grieve it, or what form it might take. Typically these "grievances" are like an LOA in substance.

As for consequences ... most likely none. Far worse has been done, and tolerated.

My best guess is that Skywest is negotiating in public. They know what Delta wants and have a pretty good idea of what Delta's offer is going to be. By "turning that down" it is hoped an even better offer will be forthcoming.

Skywest has not been profitable of late and they too need contractual modifications. My guess is that there will be a rational meeting of the minds. That's usually how it goes, although it if fun for us to postulate the more exciting alternatives.

IMHO Delta would be smart to realize this flying is core to our business and perform it ourselves. The cost of making deal after deal to entice parties to make necessary changes in the business model are themselves an unnecessary cost.

Correct, but Delta still has the ability to add 70 more 76 seat jets and can park or operate as many 50 seaters as they want, at any block hour ratio they want. The language in the PWA simply was not tight enough.

That is completely inaccurate. WRONG is actually a better word for what you wrote above.

Correct, but Delta still has the ability to add 70 more 76 seat jets and can park or operate as many 50 seaters as they want, at any block hour ratio they want. The language in the PWA simply was not tight enough.


Wow... really?? Damn, they put another one over on us..:rolleyes:

True dat... They can fly all the 50s they want. They just won't be flying them under the DAL umbrella.

That's my point t.

I just can't see an economic reason for SkyWest to agree to 3-for-1 exchanges of 50-seaters for 76-seaters, there has to be an alternate plan...

There's an increasing amount of chatter that SkyWest Inc. DCI operated 50's will be slowly going to the USAirways side of the operation. For a while the 70/76-seaters will continue. Then as the MRJs come the SkyWest will shift the operation dedicated to DCI to the then merged AMR side of the operation.

This isn't anything new, When DAL pulled the ex Western flying from LAX SkyWest shifted the entire LAX DCI operation to United in less than a year.

This also gives Delta the ability to offer more lucrative exchanges to the other DCI operators. With the shift of the 150-ish 50-seaters at SkyWest from DCI to AMR/USAirways, Delta only has to orphan another 50 50-seaters and has 70 76-seaters to use as "currency" that will be easy to convoke other DCI operators to break existing contracts...


Delta wins by getting a better hand when it comes to replacing 50's for 76's at the remaining DCI carriers.
SkyWest wins by shifting to the huge newly created AMR/USAIRways feed operation an gets growth and jumbo RJs.
USAir wins because they get "merger cash" from SkyWest in exchange for the opportunity to become the main "jumbo-RJ" provider for the merged AMR/USAir...

It is still to early to tell what becomes of Eagle in this exchange...

Cheers
George

By JA's comments I suspect that he is going to argue that our new section 2 provisions will not apply to him since his DAL DCI CPA was negotiated in good faith prior to this being added. He will further argue that if his agreements are not amended post this change to our PWA it does not apply to him. Little bit of hard ball.

Lucky for him, his first jets do not show up after 2015 and our renegotiation of our section1.

You guys were all over this during the TA discussion. Does the current discussion mean you guys never asked the question at the roadshows?

Or does it mean that the question was asked, and ALPA's reply was "uhh,umm, well, we dunno but... 19% and time value of money!"

You guys were all over this during the TA discussion. Does the current discussion mean you guys never asked the question at the roadshows?

Or does it mean that the question was asked, and ALPA's reply was "uhh,umm, well, we dunno but... 19% and time value of money!"


It was asked and answered that the protections apply to SKW, they are not part of the cutout.

What matter is that JA can fight it and then we cannot even file a grievance until the first jet shows in 2017.

He's going to argue that is contract supersedes the changes. Its also a negotiation tactic stating what he did. He may be trying to make DAL move on an item or two in his CPA talks. RA is the mater of this.

Not trying to steer the thread, but... the regionals are not going to be able to staff the RJ's they operate now. I dont think anyone needs to worry about 50's staying or going. They are all going to be parked in 10 years anyway due to lack of staffing. Rumor is only 400 commercial tickets were issued last year, right. They will staff the efficient equipment, and everyone knows the 50 is at the bottom of the barrel. DAL management doesn't need to have a plan in place for contact with Skywest or anyone else. Delta is going to take all their pilots. :eek:

Wrong. Over 8000 issued last year.

This is the internet... you can find out anything with a quick google search.

AOPA Online: General Aviation Trends (http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/trend.html)

Wrong. Over 8000 issued last year.

This is the internet... you can find out anything with a quick google search.

AOPA Online: General Aviation Trends (http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/trend.html)

This is why i hate forums, always someone trying to one up, rather than have a discussion. By the way that was 2010.

These PWA's are laced with performance based parameters that must be met in order for the contract to remain valid. Skywest could load the gun by refusing to negotiate with DL on the 50 seaters. Delta will pull the trigger once one section of the contract is not complied with. Happened to Freedom, Pinnacle was threatened with it in 2008, Skywest could be next if they dont play ball.

As has been pointed out numerous times, our scope language here at Alaska is terrible. I'm sure Air Group could find something for their 50 seaters to do.

These PWA's are laced with performance based parameters that must be met in order for the contract to remain valid. Skywest could load the gun by refusing to negotiate with DL on the 50 seaters. Delta will pull the trigger once one section of the contract is not complied with. Happened to Freedom, Pinnacle was threatened with it in 2008, Skywest could be next if they dont play ball.

Don't forget Mesa... Spot on post.

Don't forget Mesa... Spot on post.

Freedom was the chunk of Mesa (Mesa Air Group) that flew the DCI flights.

Mesa (Airline) couldn't fly anything DCI - they have A/C over 76 seats.

These PWA's are laced with performance based parameters that must be met in order for the contract to remain valid. Skywest could load the gun by refusing to negotiate with DL on the 50 seaters. Delta will pull the trigger once one section of the contract is not complied with. Happened to Freedom, Pinnacle was threatened with it in 2008, Skywest could be next if they dont play ball.

We're the mainline pilot contracts in place prior to the contracts like ACA being negotiated?

It was asked and answered that the protections apply to SKW, they are not part of the cutout.

What matter is that JA can fight it and then we cannot even file a grievance until the first jet shows in 2017.

He's going to argue that is contract supersedes the changes. Its also a negotiation tactic stating what he did. He may be trying to make DAL move on an item or two in his CPA talks. RA is the mater of this.

And RA won't like ultimatums. History is littered with failed companies that poo pooed their core product and main customer.

Delta doesn't have the extra 76 seaters yet. If one airline like SKW balks by an extra 25 50 seaters over the cap, then maybe that will result in 25 fewer additional 76 seaters. So instead of 70 new ones, it could become 45.

1.B.46.f.

These PWA's are laced with performance based parameters that must be met in order for the contract to remain valid. Skywest could load the gun by refusing to negotiate with DL on the 50 seaters. Delta will pull the trigger once one section of the contract is not complied with. Happened to Freedom, Pinnacle was threatened with it in 2008, Skywest could be next if they dont play ball.

I get that with the performance parameters and I wish they'd use that more, which may be the problem.

Skywest doesn't lack for money which means they don't lack for lawyers and why do I have a feeling SKW could win that battle against Delta? Especiially given how hard it was for Delta to beat down Freedom/Mesa who you know is no SkyWest.

I have a feeling if Skywest balked at parking 50 seaters and DAL retaliated, that Skywest's lawyers would probably have a field day getting a look to see how consistent Delta has been with those performance parameters with other DCIs. Especially those who accepted DAL's terms signed with the pilots after the contracts were signed with DCI. And my bet is if Delta is being vindictive or heavy handed while giving DCI's that parked 50 seaters a pass, Skywest would win big.

And the cost of outsourcing would again skyrocket. Yet none of that ever seems to go into the cost hopper as the only parameter that purportedly matters when it comes to DCI is the hourly pilot cost. :rolleyes:.

It's a hunch on my part. I may research it.

FtB, you and I are going to have so much fun on that 717. Can't wait. 88 of them. Great pay raise.

Looking back over all the TA materials and letters, there was never the suggestion that the DCI's might not comply, although there was the implementation matrix that accounted for "what if"

The impression I had, reinforced by the constant message of "this is a perishable opportunity and DAL will move on to plan B", was that they already had determined where the 50 seat RJ's were going to come from, and while not specifically stated, agreements where in place with the various DCI's.

So, reference all the cost savings, passed on to us from not doing the engine overhaul maintenance, what happens if a DCI says "I don't want to play" and is still covered under their contractual capacity purchase agreement with DAL?

Will DAL be forced to then pay for the engine overhaul maintenance?

Will DAL reduce the now announced 88 717 deal or stick with the number regardless? Seems to me the economies of the 717 dictate those numbers to make the fleet cost revenue positive.

Are there provisions in the 717 deal now signed that allow for DAL to backout contigent on 50 seat parking or are they now on the hook for those aircraft either way? It does appear we'd still enjoy better RJ projections than the previous PWA.

Seems to me RA is way too smart a cookie to leave himself exposed like that.

http://dangerouslee.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/popcorn.jpg

I don't think Delta will have a problem finding 50 seaters to park. Skywest isn't the only carrier operating them. Comair would be the easiest and closing the entire operation would also free up their 700/900s to entice other carriers to trade. Pinnacle would be next up as Delta is financing the bankruptcy and I would be amazed if Delta management didn't include some sort of trade deal in the new flying agreement with Pinnacle. Oh and Pinnacle's 900s are still going away so those aircraft are also available to entice other carriers. So with Comair parked and Pinnacle's 16 900s, Delta would have 44 700/900s to dangle in front of another management without increasing the total large RJ number.

Park Comair completely. At least 16 200s gone. 28 700/900s free

Park Pinnacle's 200. 145 200s gone. Offer they keep the 16 900s and offer 56 new big RJs.

That allows 14 new RJs and Comair's 28 to offer another company. Depending on how many 200s Comair has left, Delta will need to park a max of 57 additional 50 seaters. Offer Skywest a long term deal and 44 new big RJs and I think they would park 57 small ones. That's nearly 1 for 1 and the ratio gets even closer if Comair is still flying more than 16 200s.

It was asked and answered that the protections apply to SKW, they are not part of the cutout.

What matter is that JA can fight it and then we cannot even file a grievance until the first jet shows in 2017.

He's going to argue that is contract supersedes the changes. Its also a negotiation tactic stating what he did. He may be trying to make DAL move on an item or two in his CPA talks. RA is the mater of this.

They don't have a "most favored nation" type clause does it? I'm sure none of us no as CPA details are not typically disclosed. But if they did, they could argue since RAH gets a cut out they to are required to receive the same benefit.

I doubt a company as large as DAL would put themselves in that situation.

They don't have a "most favored nation" type clause does it? I'm sure none of us no as CPA details are not typically disclosed. But if they did, they could argue since RAH gets a cut out they to are required to receive the same benefit.

I doubt a company as large as DAL would put themselves in that situation.

I agree in principle. The point is the Holding Company permitted aircraft type language has an exclusion. When you see those types of exclusions, others "may" want them.

The argument that JA can make is that, this clause was negotiated after his CPA was agreed to, and in its current state has not been amended since the PWA change, therefore he deserves exclusionary language as well. His comments in the AWS&T article were place there for a reason. He's a smart guy too. Its negotiation in public.

I am sure as the day is long that as "Enemyofthestate" states, agreements "in principle" were in place prior to our TA. They may have not been specific on anything more than ratios and swap outs, and now that they changes are reality, companies like SKW Holdings, may be doing a little negotiating for themselves.

Will JA force RA in to a duel?, Unlikely, but probably wants a little more for the trades, and what we see publicly is just a way to do that.

On the other hand, JA, has been watching the failures of the other regionals try to morph in to national airlines. I am sure he has found a way to make it work, and sees it has his next lifeblood. He has been timing it to takeover where DCI lift will leave off. This holding company provision causes some issues for him to keep his DCI income stream, and start or acquire a larger gauge operation.

It is my concern and my concern only that he may want to have an exclusion as well. The question becomes, does DAL use his desire to fly aircraft beyond the "permitted aircraft" within our PWA's definition as an out to their contracts, or is JA going to be able to leverage his level of DCI lift to get terms he wants to benefit his stake holders? Our PWA language may not come under attack, but his maneuvering is making many question is long term intentions. Basically, its a situation to watch.

The Delta PWA is between ALPA and Delta....Skywest and the other lift providers aren't a party to that agreement. Delta can only use incentives to get out of agreements they signed. If the price is right, Skywest Inc. will help park 50s early....If the price isn't right, they will fly them until the original agreement runs out.

Unless DL cancells early, which they can. Reference ACA. Dl would be on the hook for the leases, which would be the biggest cost, but that will be 100% taken care of anyway. The rest are early termination penalties which are almost nothing compared to the leases. DL ate leases and the penalties with ACA and eventually ended up hiring Mesa when they agrees to take the D328 leases off their hands. It was no big deal then, it won't be a big deal now.

Offer Skywest a long term deal and 44 new big RJs and I think they would park 57 small ones.

That will teach 'em a lesson! If you can't play by the rules you'll get bigger toys! Yeah!

Unless DL cancells early, which they can. Reference ACA. Dl would be on the hook for the leases, which would be the biggest cost, but that will be 100% taken care of anyway. The rest are early termination penalties which are almost nothing compared to the leases. DL ate leases and the penalties with ACA and eventually ended up hiring Mesa when they agrees to take the D328 leases off their hands. It was no big deal then, it won't be a big deal now.


Difference is the level of DCI flying and as a result DAL coded flying that EV and OO do for DAL. The fact that contracts are in place and until about 2017 or so provide a significant level of connecting lift for DAL. That little nugget probably makes JA believe he has a lot of leverage.

Without this lift, DAL's connecting and route network would suffer.

DAL is taking Pinnacle to the cleaners, they have already cut us in half over the last three years.......We aren't allowed to bid on other flying, benefits cut, concessions, and future 200 losses; Ouch!

Difference is the level of DCI flying and as a result DAL coded flying that EV and OO do for DAL. The fact that contracts are in place and until about 2017 or so provide a significant level of connecting lift for DAL. That little nugget probably makes JA believe he has a lot of leverage.

Without this lift, DAL's connecting and route network would suffer.

DL could replace that lift almost immediately with the level of desperation at the regionals, not to mention replace a lot of it (not all but a lot) by delaying mainline aircraft retirements as the 73-9's and all 88 717's come on board.

JA has very, very limited "leverage" for a couple years and then none at all. I kind of hope he plays hard ball with DL for a number of reasons. It will be SKYW's downfall big time unless they really clean up in the AA scope sale land grab. Even then the days are numbered for his failed business model. The FFD gravy train is leaving the station and he can't compete in the real world.

DL could replace that lift almost immediately with the level of desperation at the regionals, not to mention replace a lot of it (not all but a lot) by delaying mainline aircraft retirements as the 73-9's and all 88 717's come on board.

JA has very, very limited "leverage" for a couple years and then none at all. I kind of hope he plays hard ball with DL for a number of reasons. It will be SKYW's downfall big time unless they really clean up in the AA scope sale land grab. Even then the days are numbered for his failed business model. The FFD gravy train is leaving the station and he can't compete in the real world.

Unless the end game is a domestic code share with a SKW branded operation, but they need to have SKW fight and win an injunction on holding them to our holding company language.

Unless the end game is a domestic code share with a SKW branded operation, but they need to have SKW fight and win an injunction on holding them to our holding company language.

Every contract has penalties for early cancellation. Those penalties include the leases, which will be taken care of 100% by whatever manufacturer we buy planes from (probably Canadair) and separate penalties for "early withdrawal." Worst case, that penalty will have to be paid, prorated to the amount of planes cancelled (doesn't have to be all or nothing).

DL can tell SKYW they will cancell 20, 30, 60, etc. RJ's instantly, DL takes over the leases (then gets the leases forgiven immediately) and pays SKYW off. There is no injunction they could win as long as DL complies with the cancellation terms of the original contract. DL can also put the squeeze on them by constantly changing where they operate, trashing their schedule optimization and utilization and constantly moving them all over the place, then hammering them when their performance numbers slip.

JA is just fluffing to get more of a FFD for the 76 seaters and/or a longer term of committment for them. That's fine, but DL management needs to know we will enforce every bit of our scope, so whatever they sign with whoever they sign it with, needs to include strict instant drop dead clauses if they try an IndyAir and operate "non permitted types." If they want to play in the real world, great. Welcome to the show. They will be liquidated in short order. But they will not get DL welfare while they do it.

JA's leverage is very limited, even if he gets an AA scope sale windfall. If he doesn't, and there are cheaper airlines out there, then he is even more desperate than he appears now.

Gloppy, not exactly. The court cases prove the cancelations of CPA's are not cut and dry.

There are floors in these deals. SKW moves jets from the SKW to the EV certificate and back and forth all of the time but their flying as a whole has a floor. Both agreements do. Those penalties are there but note that the DCI operators fight cancelation for a reason. Further, there needs to be a contractual trigger to have it stand.

Gloppy, not exactly. The court cases prove the cancelations of CPA's are not cut and dry.

If you cancel due to performance numbers, you have to be in compliance with that part of the contracts. DL played just a bit too dirty with Freedom and lost initially, but ended up winning out. I suspect they are smarter for round 2 with SKYW. DL cancelled Freedom flights, then hammered Freedom for cancelled flights. Freedom sued and won, so DL simply held them to their perf numbers and shifted their bases and spread them around. DL won in the end.

If you cancell due to performance numbers, you have to be in compliance with that part of the contracts. DL played just a bit too dirty with Freedom and lost initially, but ended up winning out. I suspect they are smarter for round 2 with SKYW.

Look at the percentage of DCI flying SKW ams EV perform. Not as cut and dry as Freedom.

Look at the percentage of DCI flying SKW ams EV perform. Not as cut and dry as Freedom.

Look at the percenate of SKYW revenue DL represents. If JA wants to play "its better to burn out than to fade away" DL can accommodate his myopic, ego based, over playing his hand request.

I'm sure DL would be willing to deal longer committments for 76 seaters with a slightly higher profit margin. If that's not good enough for him, DL needs to play hard ball. And either way, if JA goes it alone with a real airline, DL needs to bury it.

Look at the percenate of SKYW revenue DL represents. If JA wants to play "its better to burn out than to fade away" DL can accommodate his myopic, ego based, over playing his hand request.

I'm sure DL would be willing to deal longer committments for 76 seaters with a slightly higher profit margin. If that's not good enough for him, DL needs to play hard ball. And either way, if JA goes it alone with a real airline, DL needs to bury it.

They could but to get to the point where skw's flying get reduced is a few years out. Dal needs a viable network between now and then. That is the leverage to he infers in the AWST article

They could but to get to the point where skw's flying get reduced is a few years out. Dal needs a viable network between now and then. That is the leverage to he infers in the AWST article

So he keeps his barely profitable status quo for now, then loses a massive portion of his revenue forever. Plus back in May SKYW was saying it was interested in creative solutions to the 50 seat problem. He has leverage, but its very, very limited and the cost of exercising that leverage is severe long term.

So he keeps his barely profitable status quo for now, then loses a massive portion of his revenue forever. Plus back in May SKYW was saying it was interested in creative solutions to the 50 seat problem. He has leverage, but its very, very limited and the cost of exercising that leverage is severe long term.

DL isn't the biggest feed for SKW... It's United and soon to be Airways.

So he keeps his barely profitable status quo for now, then loses a massive portion of his revenue forever. Plus back in May SKYW was saying it was interested in creative solutions to the 50 seat problem. He has leverage, but its very, very limited and the cost of exercising that leverage is severe long term.

The point I'm trying to make is JA is up to something. His timing is in the short term where his leverage is the greatest. His airlines provide a lot of DCI lift and Dal would be in a world of hurt if he opted to start branded operation and or bought a small ulcc, which resulted in canceling their DCI lift. It's the weak spot for Dal. Not just in terms of lift but also in terms of how creditors view Dal as a credit risk. Timing is everything.

Just watch for it.

The point I'm trying to make is JA is up to something. His timing is in the short term where his leverage is the greatest. His airlines provide a lot of DCI lift and Dal would be in a world of hurt if he opted to start branded operation and or bought a small ulcc, which resulted in canceling their DCI lift. It's the weak spot for Dal. Not just in terms of lift but also in terms of how creditors view Dal as a credit risk. Timing is everything.

Just watch for it.

Sounds like the perfect time for Anderson to shut down Comair and shove even more eggs into his Skywest basket. :confused:

Sounds like the perfect time for Anderson to shut down Comair and shove even more eggs into his Skywest basket. :confused:


Not sure you would want to give JA any more control over DCI than he has. That is effectively why they cut his growth off a half a decade ago. He controls too much of the DCI lift.

Difference is the level of DCI flying and as a result DAL coded flying that EV and OO do for DAL. The fact that contracts are in place and until about 2017 or so provide a significant level of connecting lift for DAL. That little nugget probably makes JA believe he has a lot of leverage.

Without this lift, DAL's connecting and route network would suffer.

2020................

I thought about the following scenario: Maybe Skywest is slowly going to be heading away from delta. With comair closing, all of their 700's and 900's will probably go to gojet and depending on how 9E's chapter 11 goes, you could have them giving all 140 of their 200's in exchange for the 70 900s coming. With the pinnacle 200's, comair 200's and chautauqua 145's scheduled to leave soon that takes care of a lot of the 50 seaters to be parked. Skywest and Express Jet would then keep their 200's until contract expiration.
Delta probably wants to get our of their own 200 leases and not let skywest get out of theirs.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that most of this aircraft swap buisness was negotiated prior or during the Delta TA passage. I can't imagine delta/ Skywest not having a plan already in place. The money and logistics are just to big to gamble on what a company " might " do. No way Skywest shrinks their fleet 2 to 1..... They have cash on hand and contracts that go thru 2020. Lots can happen in that time frame, United, US air and American will all have to make moves well before then. As far as Gojets winning big, what do they have to offer other than bidding flying at a loss. I would dare guess the cost of engine overhauls on older 200s far out weigh a few bucks an hours saving in block hour cost. But then again this is the airline buisness and one has to take way reason and accountability ...

The point I'm trying to make is JA is up to something. His timing is in the short term where his leverage is the greatest. His airlines provide a lot of DCI lift and Dal would be in a world of hurt if he opted to start branded operation and or bought a small ulcc, which resulted in canceling their DCI lift. It's the weak spot for Dal. Not just in terms of lift but also in terms of how creditors view Dal as a credit risk. Timing is everything.

Just watch for it.

I don't envision any scenario in which 100% of all SKYW lift is cancelled in one day with no notice. While cutting off a lot of DL "feed" that would also cripple SKYW especially as they were flailing around trying to start up a real airline or sink more money into a Frontier or whatever.

Again, the transition doesn't have to be overnight and logistically wouldn't be from either end. Maybe DL should start hiring a bit and keep plan B options like the mystery 319's around. At the very least, don't park 757's or old 320's quite as fast as the 73-9's and 71's come next year and make those, *gasp*, growth planes for mainline to replace quickly lost SKYW lift.

Also, do AA's/UAL's PWAs allow a regional "partner" to go rogue and do an IndyAir while still being a regional for them? UAL wasn't too fond of ACA's little stunt and I doubt would take too kindly to SKYW trying it.

JA's built up quite the little next egg in the FFD glory days of self printing money. Would he really whiz it all away to stroke his ego just to try and prove to himself that he has what it takes to apply his magic to anything airline, only to waste it all away?

2020................

The gradual pulldown on the number of jets under contract starts in 2017 or so. Look in DAL's 10K and see how many jets are under contract at each carrier in 2020. The reality may shock you.

I don't envision any scenario in which 100% of all SKYW lift is cancelled in one day with no notice. While cutting off a lot of DL "feed" that would also cripple SKYW especially as they were flailing around trying to start up a real airline or sink more money into a Frontier or whatever.

Again, the transition doesn't have to be overnight and logistically wouldn't be from either end. Maybe DL should start hiring a bit and keep plan B options like the mystery 319's around. At the very least, don't park 757's or old 320's quite as fast as the 73-9's and 71's come next year and make those, *gasp*, growth planes for mainline to replace quickly lost SKYW lift.

Also, do AA's/UAL's PWAs allow a regional "partner" to go rogue and do an IndyAir while still being a regional for them? UAL wasn't too fond of ACA's little stunt and I doubt would take too kindly to SKYW trying it.

JA's built up quite the little next egg in the FFD glory days of self printing money. Would he really whiz it all away to stroke his ego just to try and prove to himself that he has what it takes to apply his magic to anything airline, only to waste it all away?

No but by starting a branded operation he could if he did not play the legal side of the game wrt to our new PWA language. Putting the battle in a long drawn out court battle, that he may end up losing, give him the time and cash flow he would need to make a successful upstart. A injunction until the case can go though discovery, etc would give him the time and cash flow he needs.

Its a game and a gamble. He knows the FFD days are ending. He is sitting on the fence right now making comments to see if he can make the CPA terms a little more favorable to him. If not he has a plan B.

In response to the above poster, logic would think that the terms were agreed to, but the phrase, "agreements in principle" has a lot of latitude. It could have been "openness" to do RJ swaps, but not down to the finite CPA terms, etc. Only DAL and those carriers know. JA making waves indicates that they were not 100% locked down.

Spent some time in LGA and heard long stories about how miserable passengers were treated on GoJets and Express Jet. Some revenue passengers were on their second day of fighting with Delta for a hotel room after 18 hours running from terminal to terminal (ok for a buddy pass non rev but completely unacceptable for a business traveller with a 6:30 am set up for a presentation) Oversold DCI flights and careless gate agents resulted in disconnects being routed into LGA because of all the RJ connections "available" there. Turns out there no flights were available as GoJets was unable to get anything hardly in the air due to crew unavailability and ops issues. Of course they blamed the weather, although a recruitment poster for street Captains was hanging in the airport.

Nowadays Delta hides the fact these are outsourced operations and the passengers all believe "Delta" is GoJets.

It was worse than embarrassing.

IMHO DCI is a deceptive business practice. My local Ford dealer can't sell me a Yugo with a Ford badge on it. How can Delta deliberately misrepresent their brand?

Overall Delta does a good job, but based on what you see happening near any DCI gate the Corporation deserves to go out of business. 50% of this airline is working hard to make friends & customers. The other 50% is under contract and just does not care. Those people are not their customers.

New York is going to be another multi billion dollar boondoggle unless Delta provides its own product there. Mark my words, GoJets and Skywest's subsidiaries will cost Delta New York.

The point I'm trying to make is JA is up to something. His timing is in the short term where his leverage is the greatest. His airlines provide a lot of DCI lift and Dal would be in a world of hurt if he opted to start branded operation and or bought a small ulcc, which resulted in canceling their DCI lift. It's the weak spot for Dal. Not just in terms of lift but also in terms of how creditors view Dal as a credit risk. Timing is everything.

Just watch for it.

I'm not sure that SKYW can just pull out whenever they want...

They are probably tied to the deal until 2020 also, unless DAL "allows" them to reduce their DCI contract....

Spent some time in LGA and heard long stories about how miserable passengers were treated on GoJets and Express Jet. Some revenue passengers were on their second day of fighting with Delta for a hotel room after 18 hours running from terminal to terminal (ok for a buddy pass non rev but completely unacceptable for a business traveller with a 6:30 am set up for a presentation) Oversold DCI flights and careless gate agents resulted in disconnects being routed into LGA because of all the RJ connections "available" there. Turns out there no flights were available as GoJets was unable to get anything hardly in the air due to crew unavailability and ops issues. Of course they blamed the weather, although a recruitment poster for street Captains was hanging in the airport.

Nowadays Delta hides the fact these are outsourced operations and the passengers all believe "Delta" is GoJets.

It was worse than embarrassing.

IMHO DCI is a deceptive business practice. My local Ford dealer can't sell me a Yugo with a Ford badge on it. How can Delta deliberately misrepresent their brand?

Overall Delta does a good job, but based on what you see happening near any DCI gate the Corporation deserves to go out of business. 50% of this airline is working hard to make friends & customers. The other 50% is under contract and just does not care. Those people are not their customers.

New York is going to be another multi billion dollar boondoggle unless Delta provides its own product there. Mark my words, GoJets and Skywest's subsidiaries will cost Delta New York.

I'm with ya Bar....

You can't always put a number on the "cost of goodwill"!

Would an additional cost to Delta of $1,000,000 per "RJ" operated at mainline be worth it?

450 total RJ's desired= $450,000,000 per year added costs
$1.5 BILLION profit = 1/3 of the annual profits spent

New profit $1 Billion per year.

Improved profit offset by using mainline employees and "effort"?

$_______________ per year in increased revenue and "synergy":rolleyes:

Spent some time in LGA and heard long stories about how miserable passengers were treated on GoJets and Express Jet. Some revenue passengers were on their second day of fighting with Delta for a hotel room after 18 hours running from terminal to terminal (ok for a buddy pass non rev but completely unacceptable for a business traveller with a 6:30 am set up for a presentation) Oversold DCI flights and careless gate agents resulted in disconnects being routed into LGA because of all the RJ connections "available" there. Turns out there no flights were available as GoJets was unable to get anything hardly in the air due to crew unavailability and ops issues. Of course they blamed the weather, although a recruitment poster for street Captains was hanging in the airport.

Nowadays Delta hides the fact these are outsourced operations and the passengers all believe "Delta" is GoJets.

It was worse than embarrassing.

IMHO DCI is a deceptive business practice. My local Ford dealer can't sell me a Yugo with a Ford badge on it. How can Delta deliberately misrepresent their brand?

Overall Delta does a good job, but based on what you see happening near any DCI gate the Corporation deserves to go out of business. 50% of this airline is working hard to make friends & customers. The other 50% is under contract and just does not care. Those people are not their customers.

New York is going to be another multi billion dollar boondoggle unless Delta provides its own product there. Mark my words, GoJets and Skywest's subsidiaries will cost Delta New York.

Thanks for posting that Bar.

I'm with ya Bar....

You can't always put a number on the "cost of goodwill"!

Would an additional cost to Delta of $1,000,000 per "RJ" operated at mainline be worth it?

450 total RJ's desired= $450,000,000 per year added costs
$1.5 BILLION profit = 1/3 of the annual profits spent

New profit $1 Billion per year.

Improved profit offset by using mainline employees and "effort"?

$_______________ per year in increased revenue and "synergy":rolleyes:

It's what is irritating about the arguement that the only cost that matters is hour

when we merged it was all about synergy. If we merge again I bet it will still be all about synergy.

but if you say merge all of DCI then its all about preventing Comair 2001, and if you say bring it in house its all about hourly pilot cost.

really what its all about is whipsawing. problem is its the passengers who get whipsawed first, followed by the airline, then the passengers, then our futures, then the passengers, then dci employees, then the passengers, then us and finally the passengers.

its a failed system once it went away from small props feeding small towns near a hub.

Spent some time in LGA and heard long stories about how miserable passengers were treated on GoJets and Express Jet. Some revenue passengers were on their second day of fighting with Delta for a hotel room after 18 hours running from terminal to terminal (ok for a buddy pass non rev but completely unacceptable for a business traveller with a 6:30 am set up for a presentation) Oversold DCI flights and careless gate agents resulted in disconnects being routed into LGA because of all the RJ connections "available" there. Turns out there no flights were available as GoJets was unable to get anything hardly in the air due to crew unavailability and ops issues. Of course they blamed the weather, although a recruitment poster for street Captains was hanging in the airport.

Nowadays Delta hides the fact these are outsourced operations and the passengers all believe "Delta" is GoJets.

It was worse than embarrassing.

IMHO DCI is a deceptive business practice. My local Ford dealer can't sell me a Yugo with a Ford badge on it. How can Delta deliberately misrepresent their brand?

Overall Delta does a good job, but based on what you see happening near any DCI gate the Corporation deserves to go out of business. 50% of this airline is working hard to make friends & customers. The other 50% is under contract and just does not care. Those people are not their customers.

New York is going to be another multi billion dollar boondoggle unless Delta provides its own product there. Mark my words, GoJets and Skywest's subsidiaries will cost Delta New York.

717s will help. That plane might be the perfect size for many of the current RJ routes at LGA.

It is a failed system. Due to the mix of different airlines there is no way to re route crews and equipment during weather irops (meaning one cloud exists in the vicinity of Washington Center's airspace). It is just like an additional 8 fleet types with mechanics who can't work on any of them.

717s will help. That plane might be the perfect size for many of the current RJ routes at LGA.

Bill

The passengers who poke with me were vowing to never fly Delta again. Will or advertising campaign be "we lied to you last year, bit come trust us next year" ?

We are toast in New York if our feeders make the passengers hostile towards us.

Spent some time in LGA and heard long stories about how miserable passengers were treated on GoJets and Express Jet. Some revenue passengers were on their second day of fighting with Delta for a hotel room after 18 hours running from terminal to terminal (ok for a buddy pass non rev but completely unacceptable for a business traveller with a 6:30 am set up for a presentation) Oversold DCI flights and careless gate agents resulted in disconnects being routed into LGA because of all the RJ connections "available" there. Turns out there no flights were available as GoJets was unable to get anything hardly in the air due to crew unavailability and ops issues. Of course they blamed the weather, although a recruitment poster for street Captains was hanging in the airport.

Nowadays Delta hides the fact these are outsourced operations and the passengers all believe "Delta" is GoJets.

It was worse than embarrassing.

IMHO DCI is a deceptive business practice. My local Ford dealer can't sell me a Yugo with a Ford badge on it. How can Delta deliberately misrepresent their brand?

Overall Delta does a good job, but based on what you see happening near any DCI gate the Corporation deserves to go out of business. 50% of this airline is working hard to make friends & customers. The other 50% is under contract and just does not care. Those people are not their customers.

New York is going to be another multi billion dollar boondoggle unless Delta provides its own product there. Mark my words, GoJets and Skywest's subsidiaries will cost Delta New York.

Wow...thanks Bar. I hope some management types get some direct feedback on this. Totally UNSAT.

Spent some time in LGA and heard long stories about how miserable passengers were treated on GoJets and Express Jet. Some revenue passengers were on their second day of fighting with Delta for a hotel room after 18 hours running from terminal to terminal (ok for a buddy pass non rev but completely unacceptable for a business traveller with a 6:30 am set up for a presentation) Oversold DCI flights and careless gate agents resulted in disconnects being routed into LGA because of all the RJ connections "available" there. Turns out there no flights were available as GoJets was unable to get anything hardly in the air due to crew unavailability and ops issues. Of course they blamed the weather, although a recruitment poster for street Captains was hanging in the airport.

Nowadays Delta hides the fact these are outsourced operations and the passengers all believe "Delta" is GoJets.

It was worse than embarrassing.

IMHO DCI is a deceptive business practice. My local Ford dealer can't sell me a Yugo with a Ford badge on it. How can Delta deliberately misrepresent their brand?

Overall Delta does a good job, but based on what you see happening near any DCI gate the Corporation deserves to go out of business. 50% of this airline is working hard to make friends & customers. The other 50% is under contract and just does not care. Those people are not their customers.

New York is going to be another multi billion dollar boondoggle unless Delta provides its own product there. Mark my words, GoJets and Skywest's subsidiaries will cost Delta New York.

And the thing is, it has gotten 10 times better the past 5 year in NYC, but I feel it still has a long way to go. I'm one of the many contract pilots attempting to as good a job as possible with the tools provided to us.

The problem as I see it is the amount of support Delta gives it's regional contractors. As a pilot who used to be based at a NYC airport, I have witnessed the folly that is the DCI operation in NYC. The thing is the only thing these DCI operators do is fly the planes. They don't staff the gate agents, those or DL and they don't staff the ground those are DL as well.

Take a look at the mess that is gate 23 and 25 at JFK and the blast fence in LGA. That is management trying to squeeze 10 planes at one gate and constant overbooking at a place known for IROPS that is causing their customer service to go down the tubes.
You could change the crews from the contractor to mainline employees (and I hope they do, I would love to work for mainline) but if you don't fix the actual problems of gate space, overbooking, and overtaxed gate agents and ground personal it won't make a difference.

The contractors are not always given the tools to do a successful job. I know we try like hell to provide a great product on board our planes, but sometimes despite our best efforts the passengers have already had an awful airport experience by the time they get to us.

717s will help. That plane might be the perfect size for many of the current RJ routes at LGA.

Only 88 of those coming.. 70 more big RJs though for a grand total of 325. Which do you think is going to be seen more around the system?

And the thing is, it has gotten 10 times better the past 5 year in NYC, but I feel it still has a long way to go. I'm one of the many contract pilots attempting to as good a job as possible with the tools provided to us.

The problem as I see it is the amount of support Delta gives it's regional contractors. As a pilot who used to be based at a NYC airport, I have witnessed the folly that is the DCI operation in NYC. The thing is the only thing these DCI operators do is fly the planes. They don't staff the gate agents, those or DL and they don't staff the ground those are DL as well.

Take a look at the mess that is gate 23 and 25 at JFK and the blast fence in LGA. That is management trying to squeeze 10 planes at one gate and constant overbooking at a place known for IROPS that is causing their customer service to go down the tubes.
You could change the crews from the contractor to mainline employees (and I hope they do, I would love to work for mainline) but if you don't fix the actual problems of gate space, overbooking, and overtaxed gate agents and ground personal it won't make a difference.

The contractors are not always given the tools to do a successful job. I know we try like hell to provide a great product on board our planes, but sometimes despite our best efforts the passengers have already had an awful airport experience by the time they get to us.That is a very good, and accurate post. For some reason things work better at mainline, even with the same staff and much larger quantities of people and their stuff. My best guess is that the difference is accountability. At mainline passengers and flight attendants (sometimes pilots) write up operational problems. On the DCI side no one is on the same team, no one has the same interests and no one is motivated (at least by good management, you have many good people who try to do well just because that is their personality).

Delta maintains operational control over the slots (I think). So it does not help an underfunded, understaffed, inexperienced operation with low morale to get cancellations and delays thrown into their system when they have little capacity for recovery.

Only 88 of those coming.. 70 more big RJs though for a grand total of 325. Which do you think is going to be seen more around the system?

325 big rj's flown by how many different regionals?

and what are we talking about losing, Skywest/ASA and Comair? Leaving us with Pinnacle, RAH/Frontier owned carriers, and TransStates Holdings GoJet and now sadly they he owns Compass?

it'll only get better. :rolleyes:

Accountability is the key word here. There really isn't any. I see, day in and day out, how contracted airlines and ground crew just don't care. They don't care because (enter mainline airline) doesn't care. Who ever can do it for cheaper. You could say the passengers could just go to another airline. They could, and then just get the same treatment over there. Also, there are times the passengers may not have the choice to fly on somebody else. The airlines have them by the balls, and they will fly on who ever has the cheapest ticket. Regardless of customer service. But hey, they demanded low fares. I guess you get what you pay for, and then complain about it.

Again on accountability, I see our airline screw up the operation over and over again by making stupid decisions, and those responsible are never held accountable. Yet, my boss gets up my butt because I didn't turn in my fatigue report on time, which has no bearing on the operation. Its hard to care when your management doesn't care. I was on the receiving end of the horrible customer service the other day. An overworked, overwhelmed, contract gate agent refused to list me for the jumpseat, because she was too busy, nor cared to help me. It was frustrating, and I got a taste of what the passengers experience.

Spent some time in LGA and heard long stories about how miserable passengers were treated on GoJets and Express Jet. Some revenue passengers were on their second day of fighting with Delta for a hotel room after 18 hours running from terminal to terminal (ok for a buddy pass non rev but completely unacceptable for a business traveller with a 6:30 am set up for a presentation) Oversold DCI flights and careless gate agents resulted in disconnects being routed into LGA because of all the RJ connections "available" there. Turns out there no flights were available as GoJets was unable to get anything hardly in the air due to crew unavailability and ops issues. Of course they blamed the weather, although a recruitment poster for street Captains was hanging in the airport.

Nowadays Delta hides the fact these are outsourced operations and the passengers all believe "Delta" is GoJets.

It was worse than embarrassing.

IMHO DCI is a deceptive business practice. My local Ford dealer can't sell me a Yugo with a Ford badge on it. How can Delta deliberately misrepresent their brand?

Overall Delta does a good job, but based on what you see happening near any DCI gate the Corporation deserves to go out of business. 50% of this airline is working hard to make friends & customers. The other 50% is under contract and just does not care. Those people are not their customers.

New York is going to be another multi billion dollar boondoggle unless Delta provides its own product there. Mark my words, GoJets and Skywest's subsidiaries will cost Delta New York.

Fill out an FCR?

Fill out an FCR?No. An FCR would be as pointless as writing to a Private in 2001 to explain to him how George Bush and Rumsfield ginning up for a war in Iraq while allowing al-Queda to escape into Pakistan was a strategic error. The genesis of this problem is far higher than anyone who reads or responds to an FCR. Besides, all I saw was a lot of Delta employees patiently doing an excellent job trying to unscrew the unscrew-able as the RJ operators dumped passengers with a psychopathic disregard for their well being.

The statistics tell (and have told) the story for years. I don't think explaining the harm in human terms would impress the young, carefree, network manager(s) who came to the ATL crew lounge and referred to the performance of GoJets as the "best of the worst" in a joking manner. I would imagine he knows better than to accept, or let his mother be put on, an double or triple leg RJ re route through LGA. "Sucks for them" would be the FCR response expected along with a glib "hey, we achieved a 100% load factor, they must love us" remark.

Delta Air Lines management and ALPA have some fundamental disconnect with the reality of outsourcing. Not sure how you correct a self deluded corporate culture with an FCR.

"I ain't got the time and if my daddy thinks I'm fine
They tried to make me go to rehab, I said, "No, no, no"There ... fixed it. Now they'll know who to fire ;)

Fill out an FCR?

They only care about your FCR if youre a Captain. :(

But this is Bar, he'll have a letter written up and delievered to RA at dinner, at his house, and signed... Tsquare. :D

No. An FCR would be as pointless as writing to a Private in 2001 to explain to him how George Bush and Rumsfield ginning up for a war in Iraq while allowing al-Queda to escape into Pakistan was a strategic error. The genesis of this problem is far higher than anyone who reads or responds to an FCR. Besides, all I saw was a lot of Delta employees patiently doing an excellent job trying to unscrew the unscrew-able as the RJ operators dumped passengers with a psychopathic disregard for their well being.

The statistics tell (and have told) the story for years. I don't think explaining the harm in human terms would impress the young, carefree, network manager(s) who came to the ATL crew lounge and referred to the performance of GoJets as the "best of the worst" in a joking manner. I would imagine he knows better than to accept, or let his mother be put on, an double or triple leg RJ re route through LGA. "Sucks for them" would be the FCR response expected along with a glib "hey, we achieved a 100% load factor, they must love us" remark.

Delta Air Lines management and ALPA have some fundamental disconnect with the reality of outsourcing. As they ignore the costs they look more and more like an aging Amy Winehouse:

"I ain't got the time and if my daddy thinks I'm fine
They tried to make me go to rehab, I said, "No, no, no"

Ha ha.

Amy Winehouse saying no to rehab, what a great analogy. :D

Spent some time in LGA and heard long stories about how miserable passengers were treated on GoJets and Express Jet. Some revenue passengers were on their second day of fighting with Delta for a hotel room after 18 hours running from terminal to terminal (ok for a buddy pass non rev but completely unacceptable for a business traveller with a 6:30 am set up for a presentation) Oversold DCI flights and careless gate agents resulted in disconnects being routed into LGA because of all the RJ connections "available" there. Turns out there no flights were available as GoJets was unable to get anything hardly in the air due to crew unavailability and ops issues. Of course they blamed the weather, although a recruitment poster for street Captains was hanging in the airport.

Nowadays Delta hides the fact these are outsourced operations and the passengers all believe "Delta" is GoJets.

It was worse than embarrassing.

IMHO DCI is a deceptive business practice. My local Ford dealer can't sell me a Yugo with a Ford badge on it. How can Delta deliberately misrepresent their brand?

Overall Delta does a good job, but based on what you see happening near any DCI gate the Corporation deserves to go out of business. 50% of this airline is working hard to make friends & customers. The other 50% is under contract and just does not care. Those people are not their customers.

New York is going to be another multi billion dollar boondoggle unless Delta provides its own product there. Mark my words, GoJets and Skywest's subsidiaries will cost Delta New York.

I hope you or someone forwards this to RA. Seriously.

Only 88 of those coming.. 70 more big RJs though for a grand total of 325. Which do you think is going to be seen more around the system?

You still don't seem to understand. Where will those 102 70 seaters go after 200+ 50 seaters depart the fleet? They will cover for the 50 seaters. So then where will those extra 76 seaters go? They will cover for the 70 seaters, which will be covering for the 50s going away. Upguaging on the routes. Even the 717s will cover for departing RJs, and that's a great thing, something that you never acknowledge. Please try. You also don't acknowledge that there will be 148 fewer RJs total when the contract is up, after 88 717s arrive. Another GREAT thing.

325 big rj's flown by how many different regionals?

and what are we talking about losing, Skywest/ASA and Comair? Leaving us with Pinnacle, RAH/Frontier owned carriers, and TransStates Holdings GoJet and now sadly they he owns Compass?

it'll only get better. :rolleyes:

Run for the hills! No, what we'll have is 148 fewer total RJs, and 88 717s (not counting extra MD90s covering departing DC9s). That will be better than what we currently have, plus an extra 19.7% pay raise. The larger RJs cover for departing RJs. It's very hard to dispute those facts.

Run for the hills! No, what we'll have is 148 fewer total RJs, and 88 717s (not counting extra MD90s covering departing DC9s). That will be better than what we currently have, plus an extra 19.7% pay raise. The larger RJs cover for departing RJs. You just can't dispute those facts.

Yes, and a hopeful sign for our customers as well.

Still, obvious "commuter" jets are being replaced by jets which are indistinguishable from mainline equipment. With that transfer comes the reality that many more of our passengers are getting a "other than Delta" experience and blaming you and me for it.

Mr. Woolman was clear that only Delta employees could deliver the Delta product.

Larger RJs cover for smaller RJs that cover for mainline jets they replaced a while back. :rolleyes:

http://urbangrounds.com/wp-content/uploads/Amy_Winehouse_dead.jpg

Only 88 of those coming.. 70 more big RJs though for a grand total of 325. Which do you think is going to be seen more around the system?

You still don't seem to understand. Oh wait... yes, you do get it.

I guess it's because you have a copy of the TA/PWA, and bothered to read it. And its easy to get a copy... when you're an employee.

Find the outsourced flying in this picture:

http://images.publicradio.org/content/2008/03/06/20080306_delta_woolman_33.jpg

hint: There isn't any ...

The jet above the 767, if its a DC9-10 the it wasn't outsourced then, but is now.

but if you say merge all of DCI then its all about preventing Comair 2001, and if you say bring it in house its all about hourly pilot cost.


And with 9 subcontractors they can't even do that. Why did Delta need to give Pinnacle $75 million in cash? Because they couldn't afford to lose the lift. Whether it's Pinnacle's impending Ch7 dissolution or another ALPA strike, Delta is vulnerable despite all their efforts of the last decade.


Take a look at the mess that is gate 23 and 25 at JFK and the blast fence in LGA.

And in the old days, if one of those flights cancelled or diverted, a plane broke or a crew timed out, there were a dozen other crews and planes with the same name on the underside of the nose. Plenty of options, and the passengers would usually still get home.

Fast forward to today, and in the attempt to avoid another Comair 2001, Delta has five different operators on that fence, and when a crew times out or a plane breaks there is no ability to recover. Just as Bar says, it's like having 9 different fleet types. Way to win NYC, Delta.

Find the outsourced flying in this picture:

http://images.publicradio.org/content/2008/03/06/20080306_delta_woolman_33.jpg


hint: There isn't any ...


Aren't the L1011 and DC-8 partly outsourced to SkyTeam?

I'm not sure that SKYW can just pull out whenever they want...

They are probably tied to the deal until 2020 also, unless DAL "allows" them to reduce their DCI contract....

They do not have to agree to the new terms.

Bill

The passengers who poke with me were vowing to never fly Delta again. Will or advertising campaign be "we lied to you last year, bit come trust us next year" ?

We are toast in New York if our feeders make the passengers hostile towards us.

Bar,

I would have to say the caveat to the above bolded is: They vow never to fly Delta again, unless it's the cheaper fare.....

For every one else, doesn't our new contract at least start to right the outsourcing wrong? By restricting DCI to fewer aircraft and fewer seats? (Good thing judging from the comments on the last couple of pages) Notice I used the word "start.":) I don't think anyone believes the outsourcing wrong can be undone all at once.

Denny

Overall Delta does a good job, but based on what you see happening near any DCI gate the Corporation deserves to go out of business. 50% of this airline is working hard to make friends & customers. The other 50% is under contract and just does not care. Those people are not their customers.

DCI gates? I would have thought new York would be mainline. Does xjet even have any gate agents any more for delta?

What DCI gate are you referring to? The vast majority of them in the hubs are staffed by mainline and most outstations are your wholly owned DGS/RHS/Comair.

Bar,

I would have to say the caveat to the above bolded is: They vow never to fly Delta again, unless it's the cheaper fare.....

For every one else, doesn't our new contract at least start to right the outsourcing wrong? By restricting DCI to fewer aircraft and fewer seats? (Good thing judging from the comments on the last couple of pages) Notice I used the word "start.":) I don't think anyone believes the outsourcing wrong can be undone all at once.

Denny

Denny,

That is a HUGE +1. Before I got this job (back in the 90s) I can't tell you the number of times I heard friends and colleagues swear about XXX airlines and 6 months to a year later they are back on the same one because it is the cheapest. Except for HVCs THERE IS NO BRAND LOYALTY - consumers (and very often business travel departments) are just looking for the cheapest fare - PERIOD.

What DCI gate are you referring to? The vast majority of them in the hubs are staffed by mainline and most outstations are your wholly owned DGS/RHS/Comair.

Tried to quote another post but failed. I was making exactly your point .

Denny,

That is a HUGE +1. Before I got this job (back in the 90s) I can't tell you the number of times I heard friends and colleagues swear about XXX airlines and 6 months to a year later they are back on the same one because it is the cheapest. Except for HVCs THERE IS NO BRAND LOYALTY - consumers (and very often business travel departments) are just looking for the cheapest fare - PERIOD.

The HVCs are not about loyalty, but rather the frequent flyer program...if that is loyalty so be it, it also has nothing to do about uniforms or hats, but rather price.

They do not have to agree to the new terms.

Of course... But SKYW will be stuck operating the current deal for much longer than they might want to if they want to put efforts into their "own" operation.....

(and then DAL can use SKYW flight to compete against the "brand" like they are doing to RAH to kill Frontier.)

Bill

The passengers who poke with me were vowing to never fly Delta again. Will or advertising campaign be "we lied to you last year, bit come trust us next year" ?

We are toast in New York if our feeders make the passengers hostile towards us.

They're all talk. In a situation like that, people always say stuff like that. They'll be back when they find the cheapest ticket on Delta.

You still don't seem to understand. Oh wait... yes, you do get it.

I guess it's because you have a copy of the TA/PWA, and bothered to read it. And its easy to get a copy... when you're an employee.

Hahhahahha. It's gonna be so fun flying with you on the 717. Pensacola and Greenville, here we come!

Find the outsourced flying in this picture:

http://images.publicradio.org/content/2008/03/06/20080306_delta_woolman_33.jpg

hint: There isn't any ...

Were there any ASA Dash-7s or Rio Dash-7s flying for Delta when that 762 was flying?

And with 9 subcontractors they can't even do that. Why did Delta need to give Pinnacle $75 million in cash? Because they couldn't afford to lose the lift. Whether it's Pinnacle's impending Ch7 dissolution or another ALPA strike, Delta is vulnerable despite all their efforts of the last decade.




And in the old days, if one of those flights cancelled or diverted, a plane broke or a crew timed out, there were a dozen other crews and planes with the same name on the underside of the nose. Plenty of options, and the passengers would usually still get home.

Fast forward to today, and in the attempt to avoid another Comair 2001, Delta has five different operators on that fence, and when a crew times out or a plane breaks there is no ability to recover. Just as Bar says, it's like having 9 different fleet types. Way to win NYC, Delta.


Get rid of 200 plus 50 seaters and add 88 717s, and we're on our way towards helping solve the problems. Most people in NYC will probably start cheering.

Hahhahahha. It's gonna be so fun flying with you on the 717. Pensacola and Greenville, here we come!

So we're downsizing PNS from 90s to 717s?

http://boroarts.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/willy-wonka-wilder-300x300.jpg

But hey, glad you'll be buying tickets to fly with me to PNS and GSP. We're going to need the money to offset the goof ups of overlapping multiple DCIs that now will be ticking off 76 people at a time rather than 50.

wai you can probably nonrev, so you really wont be helping the cause.

So we're downsizing PNS from 90s to 717s?

http://boroarts.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/willy-wonka-wilder-300x300.jpg

But hey, glad you'll be buying tickets to fly with me to PNS and GSP. We're going to need the money to offset the goof ups of overlapping multiple DCIs that now will be ticking off 76 people at a time rather than 50.

wai you can probably nonrev, so you really wont be helping the cause.I see a DTW 7ER trip that overnights in PNS in open time right now. I'd call that up-gauging....

I see a DTW 7ER trip that overnights in PNS in open time right now. I'd call that up-gauging....

Ha! sounds good to me. beats taking 90s off and replacing them with 717s.

What DCI gate are you referring to? The vast majority of them in the hubs are staffed by mainline and most outstations are your wholly owned DGS/RHS/Comair.
I am referring to gate agents at outstations anywhere who take revenue passengers and re route them into the DCI system just to get the passenger out of their face. A three leg re route through LGA on RJ's is bufoonery. Dolphins and some Orangutans are smart enough to know not to do that.

You are correct that many of those gate agents are now employed directly by Delta and enjoy better longevity dates than Delta's pilots who were employed at the same place at the same time.

So we're downsizing PNS from 90s to 717s?

http://boroarts.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/willy-wonka-wilder-300x300.jpg

But hey, glad you'll be buying tickets to fly with me to PNS and GSP. We're going to need the money to offset the goof ups of overlapping multiple DCIs that now will be ticking off 76 people at a time rather than 50.

wai you can probably nonrev, so you really wont be helping the cause.

I see 4 DC9s (along with some MD90s and a 757) going to PNS daily from ATL, so I guess those could be 717s daily, and you know that. Instead, you and I will fly plenty of Jackson, Moline, and Bloomington. No escaping the downgrades, but mine will be an upgrade, and a pay raise. We'll have fun.

So we're downsizing PNS from 90s to 717s?

http://boroarts.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/willy-wonka-wilder-300x300.jpg

But hey, glad you'll be buying tickets to fly with me to PNS and GSP. We're going to need the money to offset the goof ups of overlapping multiple DCIs that now will be ticking off 76 people at a time rather than 50.

wai you can probably nonrev, so you really wont be helping the cause.

Double post

That is a HUGE +1. Before I got this job (back in the 90s) I can't tell you the number of times I heard friends and colleagues swear about XXX airlines and 6 months to a year later they are back on the same one because it is the cheapest. Except for HVCs THERE IS NO BRAND LOYALTY - consumers (and very often business travel departments) are just looking for the cheapest fare - PERIOD.

Keep telling yourself that & taking your customers for granted....it's great for my airline. :D

They're all talk. In a situation like that, people always say stuff like that. They'll be back when they find the cheapest ticket on Delta.
Maybe.

It is the "golden rule" aspect which exceeds the immediate economic impact. Generally, if you treat others the way you would like to be treated yourself, the rest takes care of itself. No "golden rule" act goes unnoticed. It might go unmentioned, but it is always noticed.

Keep telling yourself that & taking your customers for granted....it's great for my airline. :D


I like watching that TV show about a certain LCC, where passengers get mad and claim they'll never fly that airline again. Hey, isn't that the one you work for? :D

Keep telling yourself that & taking your customers for granted....it's great for my airline. :D

I do not take my customers for granted any more than any of my fellow pilots do. I am just noting anecdotal evidence of how the American consumer operates. I don't know who "your airline" is so it's hard to say whether something is good for "my airline" or "your airline". I do think (and continue to think) that my airline is shortsighted in outsourcing half its product to sub contractors over which they have minimal control - I think it is less economically viable than the MBA cost counters would have most people believe. BUT, if you believe most customers fly your airline strictly out of a sense of brand loyalty without price sensitivity you could be in for a rude awakening some time in the future.

. I don't know who "your airline" is so it's hard to say whether something is good for "my airline" or "your airline".

Think "Canyon Blue" aka "Klown Kar."

BUT, if you believe most customers fly your airline strictly out of a sense of brand loyalty without price sensitivity you could be in for a rude awakening some time in the future.

Umm, nuff said.

Parent Company treats parent company employees better than they treat contracted employees...therefor PC employees treat passengers better than CE treat passengers....It's a very simple business model...look at WN.... but even mainline continues to hire contracted mainline employees (ready reserve) and expect the same work ethic from them. You have to treat all employees the same to achieve the same customer satisfaction.

I am referring to gate agents at outstations anywhere who take revenue passengers and re route them into the DCI system just to get the passenger out of their face. A three leg re route through LGA on RJ's is bufoonery. Dolphins and some Orangutans are smart enough to know not to do that.

You are correct that many of those gate agents are now employed directly by Delta and enjoy better longevity dates than Delta's pilots who were employed at the same place at the same time.

Easy fix: DL pilots get unlimited S-2's. :)

Easy fix: DL pilots get unlimited S-2's. :)


How long you been at Delta? If we got that, you can bet every FA, ramper, mechanic, back office worker, and agent would be screaming for the same thing. Remember why even DL pilots couldn't ride their own jumpseats prior to the mid 90's? It was considered unfair that the pilots had an additional means of non revving over the non-pilot employees.