Airline Pilot Forums

This excerpt is a Tech Ops bukkiten from two days ago. It is refering to the removal of a LIDS logbook formerly on the NWA A330's. DAL only has NWA A330's.

"LIDS Retired from Delta Aircraft As communicated via EFCB earlier this year, TechOps began the process of removing the Log Item Deferral Summary (LIDS) from the logbook of "red" aircraft. This process is now complete for all aircraft except the former Hawaiian Airlines (HAL) A330s. Effective July 17th, Aircraft Maintenance Technicians (AMTs) were no longer required to insert the LIDS in the logbooks (with the HAL exception noted above), and there will be no reference to LIDS when clearing a logbook deferral. The LIDS process has been replaced by the Aircraft Discrepancy Report and Cabin Discrepancy Report, which are incorporated into the flight plan paperwork."

DAL does not have any A330's from Hawaiian....:eek:

Dal does mx work for Hal.

Dal does mx work for Hal.

Why would they be referred to as "former Hawaiian"?

Why would they be referred to as "former Hawaiian"?
I bet it is a misprint and should be 'former Hawaiian 767s' instead of 330s. . .

I bet it is a misprint and should be 'former Hawaiian 767s' instead of 330s. . .


Nope! The bulletin was for only the A330 fleet.

I know.... I found that wording to be interesting/ominous/prescient also!

Could have been a misprint; should have been "for the" instead of "former". He may have been thinking "former red book".

My money is on a typo or poor wording. Delta does power by the hour on our 330s. Not hard to figure out why we'd be included in a mx bulletin. There are no "former" HAL A330s, nor are there any rumblings of the 4 we took this year (or any of the others on property / scheduled for delivery) becoming "former." Sometimes, a banana is just a banana.

There's a beautiful Hawaiian 763 at the TOC right now.

Like that paint job. Maybe if we merge we'll drop Delta and call the whole thing Hawaiian. So that Atlanta to Augusta is served by Hawaiian Airline... Hawaiian Air Lines.

Outsider looking in, but I've seen rumors on other threads regarding a possible Hawaiian acquisition by Delta. Is it the fleet type compatibility? Code-Share agreements? Just curious:-)

Outsider looking in, but I've seen rumors on other threads regarding a possible Hawaiian acquisition by Delta. Is it the fleet type compatibility? Code-Share agreements? Just curious:-)

Big reasons IMO would be fleet commonality & DAL's access to HAL's Haneda slots. They'd also shut off JB's Codeshare with HAL.

Big reasons IMO would be fleet commonality & DAL's access to HAL's Haneda slots. They'd also shut off JB's Codeshare with HAL.


Who knows if they would shut the CS off. Its preexisting and DAL may use it as a reason to reduce the B6/DAL overlap in NYC. Never say never. Use ALK CS as an example.

HAL is also starting to serve Brisbane as well. Lots of growth over there.

Big reasons IMO would be fleet commonality & DAL's access to HAL's Haneda slots. They'd also shut off JB's Codeshare with HAL.

I'd love to see the economics of that route. Ever wondered why no one else has done it until now?

I'd love to see the economics of that route. Ever wondered why no one else has done it until now?

NWA had a HNL base for years.

I'd love to see the economics of that route. Ever wondered why no one else has done it until now?I believe ucal does it out of EWR.

Who knows if they would shut the CS off. Its preexisting and DAL may use it as a reason to reduce the B6/DAL overlap in NYC. Never say never. Use ALK CS as an example.

HAL is also starting to serve Brisbane as well. Lots of growth over there.

Wouldn't our pre-existing scope prevent that nonsense? Again, if they have to pay penalties, so what. Make them pay whatever they have to pay to get out of it, although I'd doubt they'd have to pay a penny. JB could never get an injunction to preserve a code sahre anyway that I'm sure HAL could have cancelled whenever they wanted. Empty threat. Force them to CX it cold, no matter what. No way can we allow a JB code share, especially in NYC to "reduce overlap" which means reduce DL only. That's insane.

I'd love to see the economics of that route. Ever wondered why no one else has done it until now?

Because they couldn't?

HND was recently opened up to international flights.

Because they couldn't?

HND was recently opened up to international flights.

I thought he was referring to JFK-HNL. We need to buy them and CX the JB CS or overlap that route and absolutely crush them.

That makes more sense, thanks.

NWA had a HNL base for years.

That's nice. What does that have to do with the economics of flying HNL-JFK?

Flying w/ a Capt today who had a DAL ALPA Merger guy in the JS a few days ago...said he was headed to ATL for a meeting to discuss a VERY large announcement "soon." Said he thought it was HAL & DAL.

Anyone else hearing anything?

Baja.

Flying w/ a Capt today who had a DAL ALPA Merger guy in the JS a few days ago...said he was headed to ATL for a meeting to discuss a VERY large announcement "soon." Said he thought it was HAL & DAL.

Anyone else hearing anything?

Baja.

There is a dpn meeting this week with one rep from each base. As it was told to me it was an after action on what they could do better with dpn et al.

Flying w/ a Capt today who had a DAL ALPA Merger guy in the JS a few days ago...said he was headed to ATL for a meeting to discuss a VERY large announcement "soon." Said he thought it was HAL & DAL.

Anyone else hearing anything?

Baja.


HA has 37 airplanes. That isn't what I would consider a VERY large announcement... They DO have HND route authority, but still doesn't put it in a very large announcement arena IMHO

HA also has 717s. Things that make you say "hmmm....."

HA has 37 airplanes. That isn't what I would consider a VERY large announcement... They DO have HND route authority, but still doesn't put it in a very large announcement arena IMHO


What would you consider large for DAL? a DFW terminal that we agreed to new gate leases with the DFW airport board?

Buying any airline is big news.

Flying w/ a Capt today who had a DAL ALPA Merger guy in the JS a few days ago...said he was headed to ATL for a meeting to discuss a VERY large announcement "soon." Said he thought it was HAL & DAL.

Anyone else hearing anything?

Baja.

Sweet-I could go for a 5-year upgrade to the A330s. malekaleekemaka.......

Merge and shrink, merge and shrink. Rinse and repeat.

Merge and shrink, merge and shrink. Rinse and repeat.

I agree that is their M.O. but a HAL merger with DL wouldn't be very mich of an opportunity to shrink. They don't bring massive "hub raider" feed structures to the table like other legacies would and there is very little overlap. HAL would nicely augment DL's network and if anything maybe enable DL's irresponsibile overdependance on the AS code share abuse to be reduced at least a little bit. Especially the future HI growth trend vector they are planning.

I agree that is their M.O. but a HAL merger with DL wouldn't be very mich of an opportunity to shrink. They don't bring massive "hub raider" feed structures to the table like other legacies would and there is very little overlap. HAL would nicely augment DL's network and if anything maybe enable DL's irresponsibile overdependance on the AS code share abuse to be reduced at least a little bit. Especially the future HI growth trend vector they are planning.

Would pull feed to AS island routes. That would put the profitability of those routes to AS under downward pressure. I wish no ill will on AS but it would be nice to expand west coast flying and get back some DAL QOL for a change! Just need to be sure we are protected from a seniority windfall from recent new hires at HAL, other wise Aloha and Mahalo!

What would you consider large for DAL? a DFW terminal that we agreed to new gate leases with the DFW airport board?

Buying any airline is big news.

Agree. Half of those airplanes are widebodies. I would say that would be a significant announcement.

Would pull feed to AS island routes. That would put the profitability of those routes to AS under downward pressure. I wish no ill will on AS but it would be nice to expand west coast flying and get back some DAL QOL for a change! Just need to be sure we are protected from a seniority windfall from recent new hires at HAL, other wise Aloha and Mahalo!

I agree and share the same concerns you do WRT the SLI. But whatever ends up happenind with their new hires (staple or used to buff the entire list percentage wise) its still only under 500 pilots. In any case, sooner is better because whatever ends up happening, the same result is just as likely with 10% or 40% of their list as new hires. If we are going to do this, we need to do it now.

A far bigger concern would be the JB code share. That needs to end, hard, no matter what. I really doubt JB was in any position to demand iron clad cancellation language and stiff penalties. I'm sure HAL secured very easy cancellation language for any reason, especially something like a merger. If in some unlikely twist, the JB/HI code share is preserved, we just end all HI flights to NYC. There is no way we can fund a ULCC's fantasy order book beyond what we are already doing with our capacity gifting and a JB code share is a strike item.

Merge soon, exclude the new hires from the relative, end the JB code share and give full relative for non new hire HI pilots with minor base freezes (no fences) for all existing pilots and use the combined entity to fight back against JAL and reduce some of the AS code share abuse.

Boy, you guys sound greedy.

Boy, you guys sound greedy.


Are you shocked?

You do understand that they are Pilots, right? :D:eek::rolleyes:

We should staple the HI guys to the top, but only if they bid out of HNL so we can bid in!

Any DL pilot who thinks ANY HAL pilot would agree to any staple or anything other than equitable SLI is sadly mistaken. HAL has an excellent ALPA contingent that is sharp, experienced, and capable. No fences? Come on.....get real.....

Beyond that, it's all about shareholder value; let the bidding begin!

Any DL pilot who thinks ANY HAL pilot would agree to any staple or anything other than equitable SLI is sadly mistaken. HAL has an excellent ALPA contingent that is sharp, experienced, and capable. No fences? Come on.....get real.....

Beyond that, it's all about shareholder value; let the bidding begin!

DOH would be good. But first you have to take into consideration that we have some NWA pilots hired in 2000 that are behind Delta 2007 hires.

There is no way a HAL pilot hired in the last 8 years should be ahead of any Delta pilot hired before 2008. NO WAY!

TEN

DOH would be good. But first you have to take into consideration that we have some NWA pilots hired in 2000 that are behind Delta 2007 hires.

There is no way a HAL pilot hired in the last 8 years should be ahead of any Delta pilot hired before 2008. NO WAY!

TEN

As long as I've been at DL (nearly 27 years), through 3 mergers, (WAL, PA, NWA) they have NEVER used Date of Hire to build the new list. It has ALWAYS been a form of a 'negotiated' relative position type list, relative to what they brought to the party. ie. Western only had about 5 DC10's, and about a zillion 737's, so they were light at the top and heavy at the bottom. They did recall all their furloughs and hire a ton of guys to pad their list just prior to the merger though, kind of like what HI is doing today.

With Pan Am, their biggest plane brought over was the A300, while DAL was flying a zillion L10-11's at the merger. So Pan Am was light at the top, heavy at the 727 level.

How many A330's does Hawaiian have? How many 717's and what else? Figure out the ratios and you can guestimate where you will fall in on a merged list.

There will be no date of hire SLI, so don't worry about that.

doh would be good. But first you have to take into consideration that we have some nwa pilots hired in 2000 that are behind delta 2007 hires.

There is no way a hal pilot hired in the last 8 years should be ahead of any delta pilot hired before 2008. No way!

Ten

+1,000,000

DOH would be good. But first you have to take into consideration that we have some NWA pilots hired in 2000 that are behind Delta 2007 hires.

There is no way a HAL pilot hired in the last 8 years should be ahead of any Delta pilot hired before 2008. NO WAY!

TEN

Look and see what a 2000 or 2003 hire holds at HAL.

Look and see what a 2000 or 2003 hire holds at HAL.

Was in 98' hiring pool @ HAL....would be a 330 Capt....Holey $h!t.

Baja.

What would you consider large for DAL? a DFW terminal that we agreed to new gate leases with the DFW airport board?

Buying any airline is big news.


Meh. The market cap is only half again as big as the refinery deal. Yeah it is big in one respect that it gives us more HND access, but it ain't gonna send the stock thru the roof. Now a JetBlue or Alaska merger might move the needle. Those will require some more dealing that will definitely be the talk of Wall Street.

DOH would be good. But first you have to take into consideration that we have some NWA pilots hired in 2000 that are behind Delta 2007 hires.

There is no way a HAL pilot hired in the last 8 years should be ahead of any Delta pilot hired before 2008. NO WAY!

TEN

From what I understand, HA has 2000 hires in the left seat of the 330. They win. Big. Good for them. Thank goodness there are only 500 total over there..

From what I understand, HA has 2000 hires in the left seat of the 330. They win. Big. Good for them. Thank goodness there are only 500 total over there..

They do stand to win out in an SLI. But that doesn't mean we have to sit back and take a full relative including recent new hires that significantly buff their entire list and more by the day. We should bargain vigorously for the interests of the current DL pilots, because the HAL pilots will do the same. There are many ways and methods we can frame that debate, and I'm sure we will. They will squeal full relative is the new "gold standard" while we argue for fences, freezes, pull and plug, seat protection for current base and equipment only, with more of a DOHish place on the over all list, etc. They won't waltz into a massive windfall. In the end a compromise will be reached and we will move on. Either way though, if its going to happen, it needs to happen now. They could buff their entire list 20 or 30% or more with one or two new hire classes. That can not be allowed to happen.

DOH would be good. But first you have to take into consideration that we have some NWA pilots hired in 2000 that are behind Delta 2007 hires.

There is no way a HAL pilot hired in the last 8 years should be ahead of any Delta pilot hired before 2008. NO WAY!

TEN

I'm one of those 2007 DL hires... and I wouldn't be surprised to end up junior to someone hired after my DOH with a Hawaiian merger.

Our years of capacity restraint and parking 60 mainline airplanes will bite us in the behind big time in a SLI with them.

I'm one of those 2007 DL hires... and I wouldn't be surprised to end up junior to someone hired after my DOH with a Hawaiian merger.

Our years of capacity restraint and parking 60 mainline airplanes will bite us in the behind big time in a SLI with them.

I know and I hope you will challenge and discuss this. What about the 2000 hire NWA pilot who is junior to you? What is the point of seniority, if every merger you lose numbers?

I strictly recall Hawaiian was not even on the radar screen back in the late 90s or early 2000s. Career expectation, progression and stability were reasons to go to NWA or Delta, rather than HAL. In fact, we have a few pilots that left HAL to go NWA or DAL.

Over 20% of HAL pilot group has recently been hired.

TEN

Certainly a lot of speculation on this board based on a typo in a maintenance report. Last I heard HAL just announced they were buying or starting their own regional. I know people on the MEC at HAL and they certainly haven't gotten the memo about a takeover or merger yet; say kind of feels like the company plans to stay independent for now, really. Maybe to position for a merge later, who knows, but Dan Roman is right about HI state politics; there is more things standing in the way of a deal like that going through than meets the casual eye. Who knows, maybe they will partner with Virgin down the road. Remember their CEO is British, a good friend of Branson, and would like to eventually fly there. Already has a big codeshare with Virgin Australia in place. With their new expansions it almost feels like HAL is trying to style itself more after foreign carriers than domestic ones. My own opinion only, but for now at least, I call bull****.

Certainly a lot of speculation on this board based on a typo in a maintenance report. Last I heard HAL just announced they were buying or starting their own regional. I know people on the MEC at HAL and they certainly haven't gotten the memo about a takeover or merger yet; say kind of feels like the company plans to stay independent for now, really. Maybe to position for a merge later, who knows, but Dan Roman is right about HI state politics; there is more things standing in the way of a deal like that going through than meets the casual eye. Who knows, maybe they will partner with Virgin down the road. Remember their CEO is British, a good friend of Branson, and would like to eventually fly there. Already has a big codeshare with Virgin Australia in place. With their new expansions it almost feels like HAL is trying to style itself more after foreign carriers than domestic ones. My own opinion only, but for now at least, I call bull****.

I can see DAL doing it, but it would be a way to cut of AMR's options. It also makes it harder to go after AMR assets with another purchase. Harder but not impossible.