Airline Pilot Forums

There seems to be growing sentiment to vote it down. The road shows have institutional bias to promote the "Last Best Final Offer" but it might not be enough to get it passed.

Lingering resentment over stagnation, the perception of a new B-scale for junior Captains (A-319 pay at $144 hr.) and a 6 year contract duration are making this vote too close too call.

Well thats only 2/20 reasons to vote no

Everyone on here was 100% sure the Delta TA was going to be voted down as well.

Was there language in the TA, that 50% of domestic flying would be codeshare?

Was there language in the TA, that 50% of domestic flying would be codeshare?

Definition of Commuter Air Carrier changed to aircraft (jet or turboprop) with a max of 79 seats (as operated for AA) and including aircraft such as the CRJ900, E170/175, MRJ70-90, or comparable aircraft. Eliminate owned/non-owned commuter carrier distinction – all commuter aircraft will now operate as owned.
The total number of regional small jets with greater than 30 seats can be up to 75% of the mainline narrowbody fleet count outlined as follows:

• The max number of regional small jets with greater than 30 seats, up to and including 65 seats cannot exceed 35% of the total mainline narrowbody fleet count. (See note below.)

• The max number of regional small jets with greater than 65 seats, up to and including 79 seats cannot exceed the following percentages of the total mainline narrowbody fleet count in the years indicated:

o 2012-2014: 25%
o 2015: 30%
o 2016 and beyond: 40%

• Note: The number of regional small jets with 31-65 seats may exceed 35% of the mainline narrowbody fleet count, provided the total number of regional jets does not exceed 75% of the mainline narrowbody fleet count.

Turboprops with less than 50 seats will not count toward the limits listed above. However, turboprops with less than 50 seats operated on behalf of American Airlines cannot exceed 10% of the mainline narrowbody fleet count.

Same as term sheet, with the addition of any airport where the average number of mainline daily departures exceeds 100 in the prior six months.

Company may enter into and maintain codeshare agreements under the following conditions:

• Alaska Airlines – the company can enter into unrestricted codesharing with Alaska with the exception of placing AA code on AS flights between Hawaii and DFW, LAX, SAN and ORD.

• Hawaiian Inter-island – the company can enter into unrestricted codesharing with Hawaiian Airlines for intra-Hawaii flights as long as American maintains a minimum average of 10 flights per day to Hawaii from the mainland. This will be measured on a rolling look-back period of 12 months.

• In addition to the points listed above, the company may enter into domestic codeshare relationships as long as the total ASMs of all of the aircraft that American places its code during a rolling 12 month period do not exceed 50% of the AA domestic scheduled monthly ASMs during that same period.

International Baseline:

The International Baseline calculation will be modified such that new routes will not be added to the Baseline until the 3rd anniversary of AA’s operation of the route on either a year- round or seasonal basis. The International Baseline will be reset to the number of international block hours scheduled during July 1, 2011 through June 30, 2012.
Joint Ventures: Parties agree to work toward a fair allocation of flying for American in Joint Business Agreements. APA has the right to review initial JBAs and any material changes going forward.

Definition of Commuter Air Carrier changed to aircraft (jet or turboprop) with a max of 79 seats (as operated for AA) and including aircraft such as the CRJ900, E170/175, MRJ70-90, or comparable aircraft. Eliminate owned/non-owned commuter carrier distinction – all commuter aircraft will now operate as owned.
The total number of regional small jets with greater than 30 seats can be up to 75% of the mainline narrowbody fleet count outlined as follows:

• The max number of regional small jets with greater than 30 seats, up to and including 65 seats cannot exceed 35% of the total mainline narrowbody fleet count. (See note below.)

• The max number of regional small jets with greater than 65 seats, up to and including 79 seats cannot exceed the following percentages of the total mainline narrowbody fleet count in the years indicated:

o 2012-2014: 25%
o 2015: 30%
o 2016 and beyond: 40%

• Note: The number of regional small jets with 31-65 seats may exceed 35% of the mainline narrowbody fleet count, provided the total number of regional jets does not exceed 75% of the mainline narrowbody fleet count.

Turboprops with less than 50 seats will not count toward the limits listed above. However, turboprops with less than 50 seats operated on behalf of American Airlines cannot exceed 10% of the mainline narrowbody fleet count.

Same as term sheet, with the addition of any airport where the average number of mainline daily departures exceeds 100 in the prior six months.

Company may enter into and maintain codeshare agreements under the following conditions:

• Alaska Airlines – the company can enter into unrestricted codesharing with Alaska with the exception of placing AA code on AS flights between Hawaii and DFW, LAX, SAN and ORD.

• Hawaiian Inter-island – the company can enter into unrestricted codesharing with Hawaiian Airlines for intra-Hawaii flights as long as American maintains a minimum average of 10 flights per day to Hawaii from the mainland. This will be measured on a rolling look-back period of 12 months.

• In addition to the points listed above, the company may enter into domestic codeshare relationships as long as the total ASMs of all of the aircraft that American places its code during a rolling 12 month period do not exceed 50% of the AA domestic scheduled monthly ASMs during that same period.

International Baseline:

The International Baseline calculation will be modified such that new routes will not be added to the Baseline until the 3rd anniversary of AA’s operation of the route on either a year- round or seasonal basis. The International Baseline will be reset to the number of international block hours scheduled during July 1, 2011 through June 30, 2012.
Joint Ventures: Parties agree to work toward a fair allocation of flying for American in Joint Business Agreements. APA has the right to review initial JBAs and any material changes going forward.

In your highlighted section, does AA domestic scheduled monthly ASMs include outsourced RJs? Or is this purely mainline ASMs? It seems to me like it includes outsourced RJs.

If thats the case, you could end up with RJ planes being 75% of the mainline, regional props being 10%, and outsourcing being 50% of those combined ASMs.

With my handy calculator, that puts mainline at only 36% of AA's flying. Pretty scary.

yikes, better support the usair merger

The scope section alone seems reason enough to vote no. If the above is correct regarding outsourced flying this contract will obliterate any growth on mainline.

In your highlighted section, does AA domestic scheduled monthly ASMs include outsourced RJs? Or is this purely mainline ASMs? It seems to me like it includes outsourced RJs.

If thats the case, you could end up with RJ planes being 75% of the mainline, regional props being 10%, and outsourcing being 50% of those combined ASMs.

With my handy calculator, that puts mainline at only 36% of AA's flying. Pretty scary.

NO, the domestic ASM's for codeshare DO NOT include RJ flying from commuters. At the current mainline domestic fleet count, I think this TA allows something like 350 RJ's that could be flown in the future with 40% of those 79-seaters. The 50% ASM's that unidentified codeshares can do does not even include any codesharing with Alaska Airlines or Hawaiian Airlines and all added up, it's pretty much a wipeout for AA pilots on scope.

It appears AMR's stand-alone plan is to hand New York JFK over to Jet Blue for domestic feed leaving AA only International and 767-200 transcons (to be replaced with A321's), LGA over to large RJ's flown by more then one carrier and perhaps some mainline A319's. The west coast will be forked over to Alaska. ORD will morph into a fairly modest International hub for AA and a large RJ operation for more then one carrier. DFW will likely see the A319 flown domestically for AA, and MIA to make good use of 737's and A319's for SA/Carribean ops. If the U merger occurs, it will almost certainly occue after exit from BK where AMR is the controller and not the controllee and Parker will run the show after AMR execs make their $$$. What Parker ultimately ends up doing with the merged carrier has yet to be determined.

As for the TA's chances of passing, I think that's going to be a close one. A lot of pilots are running around looking for places to hide, but a lot aren't. I give it 60/40 whichever way it goes, but right now it's tough to tell which way that will be. For the record, I'm a firm no vote.

The scope section alone seems reason enough to vote no. If the above is correct regarding outsourced flying this contract will obliterate any growth on mainline.

Agreed. AA is most likely to stagnate at best and contract at worst for the forseeable future. 20 year F/O's will be 25 year F/O's in 5 years.

Enter Content

Agreed. AA is most likely to stagnate at best and contract at worst for the forseeable future. 20 year F/O's will be 25 year F/O's in 5 years.

AMR is walking a tight rope right now, have to show enough progress to maintain the creditors from supporting US Airways but bad enough to get the contracts they seek. 95 million in quarterly profits, best revenue quarter ever!

From Yahoo stocks

Delta and United had nearly identical first-quarter revenue of around $8.5 billion American had $6.5 billion

Remember American is over 1/3 smaller than Delta and United. AMR has been outpacing the competition for over a QT

It will be interesting to see how those numbers come up for the second quarter, I am not certain that AMR has the judge in the bag, taking into account the contract Delta just signed. I hope this TA gets voted down

AMR is walking a tight rope right now, have to show enough progress to maintain the creditors from supporting US Airways but bad enough to get the contracts they seek. 95 million in quarterly profits, best revenue quarter ever!

From Yahoo stocks

Delta and United had nearly identical first-quarter revenue of around $8.5 billion American had $6.5 billion

Remember American is over 1/3 smaller than Delta and United. AMR has been outpacing the competition for over a QT

It will be interesting to see how those numbers come up for the second quarter, I am not certain that AMR has the judge in the bag, taking into account the contract Delta just signed. I hope this TA gets voted down

More then aware of what "ropes" Horton is walking. The creditors are FIRMLY on his side so long as he demonstrates he's in control of labor, especially the pilots. The best chance of derailing AMR and their tombstone plan is for labor to continue their rejection of the AMR management team. THAT is what MAY force the creditors to flee to Parker. Although the judge heavily favors the debtor (in this case AMR) in reorganization, he favors the interests of the creditors first. Since right now, there is no one else besides the debtor and the debtor has yet to demonstrate their hold on future costs is unraveling, the creditors will remain loyal and the judge will back the creditors directly and thus the debtor indirectly.

If the TA fails, I expect the judge to unseal his decision that is already made and it will be for abrogation. Then, I'd expect AMR to have no alternative to come back and try and get deals. They COULD just try and arrogantly rebuild the smaller AA they want to with no pilot contract, but that would freak out the banks that would be lending money for all these aircraft purchases. They'd be as nervous as a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs about commiting all that capital when the 2nd highest cost structure (labor costs) will likely cahnge in an unknown amount, turning the stand alone plan to dog****. In coming back to get deals, I expect AMR to ther start from the bottom up again (the 1113), hopefully realizing that they'll have to improve beyond the LBFO to realistically get any CBA with duration or the trying the other option (that is even more likely in my book) and that would be for both AMR and the APA to punt and agree to binding arbitration with the LBFO as the litmus. The APA has already thrown that concept out there and while AMR technically didn't agree, they didn't officially reject.

That would be one way to take the pesky pilots out of the equation, but whatever the plan, time is running out and whatever path occurs, it will have to be fairly quick. Of course, the pilots could always buckle at the testicles and ratify this flaming turd and that would be that for the next decade. That of course, is what AMR wants and they're pulling out all the stops to make that happpen.

As for the TA's chances of passing, I think that's going to be a close one. A lot of pilots are running around looking for places to hide, but a lot aren't. I give it 60/40 whichever way it goes, but right now it's tough to tell which way that will be. For the record, I'm a firm no vote.

If history is any gauge the TA will likely pass. The bankruptcy contract at Delta had the highest vote in favor of any in the last 15 years, I believe it was 82% in favor of....fear is a powerful thing.

If history is any gauge the TA will likely pass. The bankruptcy contract at Delta had the highest vote in favor of any in the last 15 years, I believe it was 82% in favor of....fear is a powerful thing.

Definately a possibility. There's a shadow of pilots here that expect to be told what to think and will believe almost anything. Whether that is enough to result in the TA being rejected is yet to be seen.

The difference between Delta's BK TA and ours (AA) is that they were coming down off a huge contract...at that time their FO's were roughly making what our captains were in each respective piece of equipment. So they knew at that time that had a concessionary contract coming. AA on the other hand has had an industry lagging contract since before UA's big jump in 2000. We then sold the farm to stay out of BK in 2003. No contract for 4+ years...and now this piece of crap to put us even further behind our peers? Can you see how we are less than enthused???

fear is a powerful thing.

Exactly. The APA pilot group had their balls handed to them with the sickout SNAFU, and by Bill Clinton. It'll pass.

The difference between Delta's BK TA and ours (AA) is that they were coming down off a huge contract...at that time their FO's were roughly making what our captains were in each respective piece of equipment. So they knew at that time that had a concessionary contract coming. AA on the other hand has had an industry lagging contract since before UA's big jump in 2000. We then sold the farm to stay out of BK in 2003. No contract for 4+ years...and now this piece of crap to put us even further behind our peers? Can you see how we are less than enthused???

Delta's BK TA was after the original 32% pay cut. In BK we got the additional 14% cut which we voted highly in favor of....so yes we get the pain you are feeling. I wish you the best of luck!

If history is any gauge the TA will likely pass. The bankruptcy contract at Delta had the highest vote in favor of any in the last 15 years, I believe it was 82% in favor of....fear is a powerful thing.

And by fear you mean the loss of job, look what just happened a few days ago, I don't think AMR has any plans to boot pilots any time soon since their schedule requires them to recall FA even with their proposed new work rules. AA has begun the recall process for pilots, it was a small number but it seems that AA doesn't plan to reduce the schedules much more if at all.

23JUL12/1315
TO: ALL FLIGHT ATTENDANTS
RE: CANCELLATION OF OLOA EFFECTIVE AUGUST 14, 2012
.
EARLIER THIS YEAR, THE COMPANY OFFERED VOLUNTARY LEAVES TO FA‡S IN AN EFFORT TO AVOID FA FURLOUGHS AS A RESULT OF SCHEDULE REDUCTIONS. AS WE CONSIDER OUR SCHEDULING NEEDS FOR THE FALL MONTHS, WE HAVE MORE LIMITED CREW FLEXIBILITY THAN WE BELIEVE IS PRUDENT. TO ENSURE WE CAN CONTINUE TO PROVIDE OUR CUSTOMERS RELIABLE SERVICE, WE HAVE DECIDED TO CANCEL OVERAGE LEAVES EFF. AUGUST 14, 2012. FA‡S CURRENTLY ON OVERAGE LEAVE HAVE BEEN ADVISED VIA CERTIFIED MAIL THAT THEIR LEAVE HAS BEEN CANCELLED AND WILL BE REQUIRED TO RETURN TO ACTIVE DUTY EFFECTIVE AUG 15, 2012

American Airlines cancels overage leaves for flight attendants as of Aug. 15 | Airline Biz Blog (http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2012/07/american-airlines-cancels-overage-leaves-as-of-aug-15.html/)

So AMR is reporting "profits", outpacing the competition in revenue growth, generating revenue almost as high as the big 2 all while being smaller, recalling FA after threatening with 2,300 layoff. The FA will not complete voting until Oct 19th, well past the deadline imposed by the judge, odds are he will delay his ruling further.

The only thing I can think of when I hear mgt use the phrase, "Last Best Final Offer", is an impotent mother wagging her finger at her unruly, undisciplined child while counting to three. Not saying the pilot group is unruly or anything, just that the company seems to be touting this thing in hopes of striking fear in all of APA. I say stand strong and vote NO!

Voted NO today!

Hope it doesn't pass.

AA has begun the recall process for pilots, it was a small number but it seems that AA doesn't plan to reduce the schedules much more if at all.

Really...... Where are you getting this information from? Any rate if this TA is passed it will bleed through the industry. Everyone will suffer.

Time to man up and Vote NO...

Any Yes Voters are just Lubing up their own holes for these Mitt Romney 1%ers scum bags want to be's...:eek:

AA has begun the recall process for pilots, it was a small number but it seems that AA doesn't plan to reduce the schedules much more if at all.

Really...... Where are you getting this information from? Any rate if this TA is passed it will bleed through the industry. Everyone will suffer.

Go look at the projected 3rd QT capacity, go see how they are recalling all FA and have stated they are not projecting reductions also they have recalled a few Pilots. This TA becoming a contract will hurt, not arguing there.

"Begun the recall process for pilots" or "recalled a few pilots"????

When? How many?

"Begun the recall process for pilots" or "recalled a few pilots"????

When? How many?

Heard of a few AE flowthru's who were on medical and recently cleared and are going through new-hire training, but unaware of any recall of furloghee's. I suppose it's possible some furloughed deferred have elected to come back so as to be included in any 13.5% claim should the TA pass. The rumor I heard regarding the F/A's leaves having been cancelled and required to return to be a concern of wildcat behavior among some F/A's should their TA fail.

TIFWIW.

"Begun the recall process for pilots" or "recalled a few pilots"????

When? How many?

exactly. I was to be in a January class and that was canceled in NOV. before BK. So, when did I miss the recall call?????????????? If, I did I'll vote NO.

Heard of a few AE flowthru's who were on medical and recently cleared and are going through new-hire training, but unaware of any recall of furloghee's. I suppose it's possible some furloughed deferred have elected to come back so as to be included in any 13.5% claim should the TA pass. The rumor I heard regarding the F/A's leaves having been cancelled and required to return to be a concern of wildcat behavior among some F/A's should their TA fail.

TIFWIW.

furlough recalls did not happen. Matter of fact Bates at STL circus told a furloughed pilot to look elsewhere for work.

Bates at STL circus told a furloughed pilot to look elsewhere for work.

Bates = MOTO (Master Of The Obvious). Any f'd AA pilot that's NOT looking for work elsewhere needs to get in touch with reality.

Sadly, the TA will pass "thanks" to DFW and ORD.

There will be furloughs. I saw the management dog & pony show traveling through ORD the other day and when asked about furloughs John Hale said "yes we may be looking at some furloughs".

furlough recalls did not happen. Matter of fact Bates at STL circus told a furloughed pilot to look elsewhere for work.

Yep. Aside from a couple of flows and POSSIBLY a deferral or two, you're correct.

Sad, sad, sad, Looks like management will win, and have managed to throw enuf scraps from their table to satisfy agroup of pilots who have decided to fold their tent and. Take what they can. I get it. Starting over at 50 suks!! Not good, but I get it. Glad I didn't,tbhold my breath, but I did still a have a glimmer of hope. Even after the lost decade. Shame on me. Good luck everyone.

• The max number of regional small jets with greater than 30 seats, up to and including 65 seats cannot exceed 35% of the total mainline narrowbody fleet count. (See note below.)

• The max number of regional small jets with greater than 65 seats, up to and including 79 seats cannot exceed the following percentages of the total mainline narrowbody fleet count in the years indicated:

o 2012-2014: 25%
o 2015: 30%
o 2016 and beyond: 40%

• Note: The number of regional small jets with 31-65 seats may exceed 35% of the mainline narrowbody fleet count, provided the total number of regional jets does not exceed 75% of the mainline narrowbody fleet count.

Turboprops with less than 50 seats will not count toward the limits listed above. However, turboprops with less than 50 seats operated on behalf of American Airlines cannot exceed 10% of the mainline narrowbody fleet count.



So much for all those retirements creating jobs. Bring on the pilot shortage!:rolleyes:

AA pilots, please, for our sake and your own, vote NO!

What is in the TA that would make someone vote yes? Honest question here. Usually there is some bone thrown to the majority of the group that will vote this in but I haven't seen it.


TC

I voted NO. I'm getting mixed thoughts from guys. I think it's going to be close.

Short-term pain is infinitely preferable to a 6 year death march, which is what the TA represents. It is a vile POS.

I voted NO. I'm getting mixed thoughts from guys. I think it's going to be close.

Short-term pain is infinitely preferable to a 6 year death march, which is what the TA represents. It is a vile POS.

Actually, considering how AMR has dragged its feet in the past during negotiations when it suited their interests, this contract could go 10 years or more. I too think the vote will be fairly close, but haven't written off the pilot group yet. Hoping for it to fail.

What scares me are the number of guys who actually look at it and go "Well, at least there's a little raise in there." I have to say "Are you bagging me? If you read the thing, and calculate the wages lost in the fine print minutia, work rules, especially health care, it's a MAJOR pay cut on top of what we gave back in 2003."

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/24219530.jpg

When does the vote close?

When does the vote close?

8th @ Noon is my understanding, with the results being revealed shortly after, the TWU will finish the night before and the FA will on the 19th.

What is in the TA that would make someone vote yes? Honest question here. Usually there is some bone thrown to the majority of the group that will vote this in but I haven't seen it.


TC

Your bankrutpcy claim. If you vote no, your contract will be rejected and you will get no claim. If you vote yes you will get the same contract and you will get to keep 13.5% of your company when it exits. Delta's bankruptcy claim was worth 1.3 billion.

Your bankrutpcy claim. If you vote no, your contract will be rejected and you will get no claim. If you vote yes you will get the same contract and you will get to keep 13.5% of your company when it exits. Delta's bankruptcy claim was worth 1.3 billion.

Not necessarily true. The claim is a settlement between AMR and the APA and is a part of the TA. If the TA fails, then it's still possible to get a claim for "damages" (which is what the claim is) via litigation, but the odds are supposedly substantially reduced depending on how Lane would rule and the value he would place on a past ruling.

The question of the value of such a claim which is unknown. Ultimately, if the TA fails, AMR will need a consensual agreement and I can't see them getting one without claim damages for the loss of the A-fund. Even with a claim payout, many believe that isn't worth a decade or more existing under the provisions of this TA. Amortized over a decade as the "bottom feeders of the industry", it would truly amount to scraps for most pilots.

The claim does however fatten up the coffers of the APA and their advisors quite nicely.

Your bankrutpcy claim. If you vote no, your contract will be rejected and you will get no claim. If you vote yes you will get the same contract and you will get to keep 13.5% of your company when it exits. Delta's bankruptcy claim was worth 1.3 billion.

Did Delta pilots vote down their deal? How do they know they wouldn't have still gotten their 1.3B claim by voting no? Or an even better amount?

You are falling for the same old fear tactic the union and the pro company pilots are falling for. This thing gets voted down, I have no doubt we'll achieve something better in Round 3. And if we don't, bring on the 1113.... but good luck trying to rebuild a world class airline with all of the labor unrest that will result.

AA Pilots are ready to take a stand and fight. Vote NO!

Also voting NO but under no illusion that something good will come from all this. Voted yes in 03 to save the pension but everything of value is now gone anyway. I hope it will be an overwhelming (80%+) no vote to at least send a strong message..

Your bankrutpcy claim. If you vote no, your contract will be rejected and you will get no claim. If you vote yes you will get the same contract and you will get to keep 13.5% of your company when it exits. Delta's bankruptcy claim was worth 1.3 billion.We had our contract rejected at Mesaba and still got the full bankruptcy claim and full snap back pay. In fact, after bankruptcy was over, we actually got a pay raise out of the deal. If we had accepted management's first proposal we would have taken a 29% pay cut.

Looks like things are lining up for this merger, whether some of you like it or not. Horton is clearly cornered by the creditors and Parker. He stated today that "whatever would be best for the company and it's owners, even if he wasn't the head guy". Any thoughts?

Did Delta pilots vote down their deal? How do they know they wouldn't have still gotten their 1.3B claim by voting no? Or an even better amount?

You are falling for the same old fear tactic the union and the pro company pilots are falling for. This thing gets voted down, I have no doubt we'll achieve something better in Round 3. And if we don't, bring on the 1113.... but good luck trying to rebuild a world class airline with all of the labor unrest that will result.

AA Pilots are ready to take a stand and fight. Vote NO!

In the case of the NWA flight attendants, the flight attendants had their contract rejected and the judge ruled they had no right to a claim. Eventually, the flight attendants came crawling back to management and they only got a fraction of the claim that the pilots got with the same contract they had voted down three times.

In Mesaba's case, their contract was rejected but the union continued to negotiate and they eventually reached a consensual deal that included a claim.

I am sure that in your case it will be different. American management has a history of caving into labor when they are being difficult, so it's sure that you will get a better deal. I am sure that all the creditors at American will follow your lead and they will all get a better deal just by saying no. That usually happens in a bankrutpcy.

My question to you is what will you gain from your chance at your new better contract and will it be worth more than 13.5 percent of your company. You pretend like you have nothing to lose but history and the law are not on your side.

These are not fear tactics, this is the cold hard reality of bankruptcy. Why would your union try to deceive you? What do they have to gain from it?

As I said in a previous post, I am sure that your union hired experienced bankruptcy attorneys. Listen to them and not some internet blowhard that is living in some fantasy dream that bankrtupcy will bend to their mighty blowhardiness. You will get run over like you read about, and crawling back from that will be painful and costly.

The word is getting out. An initial flurry of "yes" guys are starting to change their tune, probably after actually reading the TA in the meager detail we got it in.

This is by far the most important TA we at AA have ever voted on. Voting YES is a vote for a 6 to 10 year mind-numbing death march of 10,000 contractural cuts into a cesspool of mediocrity.

It's like a tooth ache. Do you want a dull ache in your jaw for 6+ years? Or get the damn thing fixed with perhaps a bit of shorter-termed pain? Remember, anything that happens after the NO vote is not permanent.

The 13.5% thing is as ephemeral as smoke. 13.5% of what? There are no numbers associated with it. Don't let some clown tell you it's 13.5% of AA, because it's not.

Alfaromeo, look above ^^^^^^ what ForeverFO posted. That is exactly spot on.

This thing fails, the company and union renegotiate. I am ready for the full 1113 but I highly doubt it will be imposed. AMR and the judge KNOW they can't run an airline with an 1113 imposed.

Bankruptcy? More like a sham bankruptcy to whack the unions for once and for all. And management uses the fear factor to do the whacking.

Sorry, not falling for it. I don't give a rat's a$$ if we're in BK. I am willing to take a stand and fight for the profession.

So my union recommends voting Yes? What's in it for them, you ask... Simple, the APA leadership has been cozying up to management for 2 years now and they don't want to disappoint. We have weak leadership and it shows.

AA73 I agree with your viewpoint 110 percent. Can u do us a HUGE favor? C & R has new posts about the "Warehouse" meeting. Could you start a new thread and copy/paste for our review? I am not a APA member currently.
Thanks and please keep the news coming. AA pilots will be forever thanksful.

Looks like things are lining up for this merger, whether some of you like it or not. Horton is clearly cornered by the creditors and Parker. He stated today that "whatever would be best for the company and it's owners, even if he wasn't the head guy". Any thoughts?

I'm surprised there is not more talk here of B6 being involved. From the JetBlue side of the house, things are lining up to look as if it is just a matter of getting all the legal ease on paper before they join forces. There are a lot of B6 folks that believe it is a done deal, and it sounds like some of those rumblings are happening at American also. As for a new head guy? It won't be Horton (he was brought in precisely to lead the bankruptcy process and possible merger/acquisition), but could Barger be vying for that position?

I'm surprised there is not more talk here of B6 being involved. From the JetBlue side of the house, things are lining up to look as if it is just a matter of getting all the legal ease on paper before they join forces. There are a lot of B6 folks that believe it is a done deal, and it sounds like some of those rumblings are happening at American also. As for a new head guy? It won't be Horton (he was brought in precisely to lead the bankruptcy process and possible merger/acquisition), but could Barger be vying for that position?

I'm a jetBlue guy as well, except I'm on the down slope of the intelligence bell curve. Unfortunately, not all of us are(OleDawg). Please ignore him and move along. Nothing to see here. Move along. Nothing to see here.

I'm a jetBlue guy as well, except I'm on the down slope of the intelligence bell curve. Unfortunately, not all of us are(OleDawg). Please ignore him and move along. Nothing to see here. Move along. Nothing to see here.


Well, get involved. I'd love to hear what the Jet Blue Pilots are thinking.
I'm open, let's hear it.

Sincerely,
7576FO

Well, get involved. I'd love to hear what the Jet Blue Pilots are thinking.
I'm open, let's hear it.

Sincerely,
7576FO


To be honest, most of the Captains I'm flying with are jacked that they'll gain 20 years of seniority in a merger.

I'm not dumb, I know we'll lose a ton of slots in NY and the DOT will bring in Southwest big time to appease the public.

In the end there will be a bunch of broken hearts here because this deal is not as good as Airways. Horton just wants to keep his job and become even richer on the backs of labor.

To be honest, most of the Captains I'm flying with are jacked that they'll gain 20 years of seniority in a merger.

I'm not dumb, I know we'll lose a ton of slots in NY and the DOT will bring in Southwest big time to appease the public.

In the end there will be a bunch of broken hearts here because this deal is not as good as Airways. Horton just wants to keep his job and become even richer on the backs of labor.

What makes you think we will lose a ton of slots in NY? A combined AA/B6 would control the same share of slots in JFK that Delta controls in LGA. United controls 70% of traffic in/out of EWR, much more than a combined AA/B6 at JFK. The combined traffic stats for NYC would put AA, Delta, United on roughly the same level (23%-27% of traffic for each). Public sentiment might cause the DOJ to cry and make a scene, but that didnt stop the DOT from ruling for every other merger in the past.

What makes you think we will lose a ton of slots in NY? A combined AA/B6 would control the same share of slots in JFK that Delta controls in LGA. United controls 70% of traffic in/out of EWR, much more than a combined AA/B6 at JFK. The combined traffic stats for NYC would put AA, Delta, United on roughly the same level (23%-27% of traffic for each). Public sentiment might cause the DOJ to cry and make a scene, but that didnt stop the DOT from ruling for every other merger in the past.

The combined airline would have 40% of the the slots in JFK, plus LGA. That is minuscule compared to the effect on the voting public. American will be taking away (to what New Yorkers believe) the only low cost carrier in town. AND it's a hometown airline. It won't be pretty, just watch. Regulators might not even let it happen.

To be honest, most of the Captains I'm flying with are jacked that they'll gain 20 years of seniority in a merger.

I'm not dumb, I know we'll lose a ton of slots in NY and the DOT will bring in Southwest big time to appease the public.

In the end there will be a bunch of broken hearts here because this deal is not as good as Airways. Horton just wants to keep his job and become even richer on the backs of labor.


OK, i'm just asking, so the JB CA's with a 2001 seniority date think they'll get a 1981 relative seniroity at AA?

What do you think will happen in regards to Bond/Mckaskill?

I'm a AA FO, I would think in a AA/JB merger that there would be a very long fence. For reference, 20 years at AA will get you a FO seat.

I just wanted to get a feel for what JB pilots think. I do not choose to argue over integration.

Have a good weekend,
7576FO

years at AA will get you a FO seat.

I just wanted to get a feel for what JB pilots think. I do not choose to argue over integration.

Have a good weekend,
7576FO

Im towards the bottom of the JB list, so most of us at my level would be happy with a DOH staple at AA. A lot of us also feel a merger with AA is the quickest way to a CBA and real major airline benefits/compensation. A lot of CAs are worried about losing their seats, but with the average age being so young they would have plenty of years to re-coup that. Overall, I would say more are in favor of it than against it.

OK, i'm just asking, so the JB CA's with a 2001 seniority date think they'll get a 1981 relative seniroity at AA?

I'm quite sure a 2001 will go way senior to a 1981. You guys have a lot of widebodies, but not that many.



What do you think will happen in regards to Bond/Mckaskill?

I'm a AA FO, I would think in a AA/JB merger that there would be a very long fence. For reference, 20 years at AA will get you a FO seat.

I just wanted to get a feel for what JB pilots think. I do not choose to argue over integration.

Have a good weekend,
7576FO


7 years is the longest fence according to the Bond/Mckaskill and it might happen on the widebodies(depending of the arbitrator). I'm assuming everything else will open up pretty quick.

It will be awkward though, some of JBs airbus CAs are in their early 30s. A ton of former TWA are praying over their bed like children that this deal will happen.

Even if this deal does happen I'll probably still leave to Delta/United when I can (I'm a FO junior lineholder). It'll be a duopoly and will probably produce the same salaries as the cargo duopoly (Fedex/Ups).

In application to a hypothetical JBLU-AA merger, 49 U.S.C. 42112 which is McCaskill-Bond in statute, will be of little help to the JetBlue pilots. You need to read the actual language, and then consider the mechanics of how a group of 2000 pilots or so who are unrepresented are going to fare against a union of 10,000 pilots. Regardless of which management takes over, the JBLU pilots have zero protections in the form of a collective bargaining agreement (think, minimum fleet and fragmentation), you willl have the airline of all entities representing you (read the statute!) against the APA, nor will you even get to vote on a union as the percentage of the pilots represented by the APA in the combined company will exceed 65% of the total pilot group. By the time you got to an arbitration, there wouldn't be anything left; every one of you would be on the street. Don't believe me? Look at Midwest Express.

In application to a hypothetical JBLU-AA merger, 49 U.S.C. 42112 which is McCaskill-Bond in statute, will be of little help to the JetBlue pilots. You need to read the actual language, and then consider the mechanics of how a group of 2000 pilots or so who are unrepresented are going to fare against a union of 10,000 pilots. Regardless of which management takes over, the JBLU pilots have zero protections in the form of a collective bargaining agreement (think, minimum fleet and fragmentation), you willl have the airline of all entities representing you (read the statute!) against the APA, nor will you even get to vote on a union as the percentage of the pilots represented by the APA in the combined company will exceed 65% of the total pilot group. By the time you got to an arbitration, there wouldn't be anything left; every one of you would be on the street. Don't believe me? Look at Midwest Express.

Agreed. If this merger goes through without us having representation, we'd be out on our asses! I just hope that if we do vote in ALPA, that it'll be in the nick of time that they are able to setup shop and get the CBA going if or when a merger/buyout occurs.

In application to a hypothetical JBLU-AA merger, 49 U.S.C. 42112 which is McCaskill-Bond in statute, will be of little help to the JetBlue pilots. You need to read the actual language, and then consider the mechanics of how a group of 2000 pilots or so who are unrepresented are going to fare against a union of 10,000 pilots. Regardless of which management takes over, the JBLU pilots have zero protections in the form of a collective bargaining agreement (think, minimum fleet and fragmentation), you willl have the airline of all entities representing you (read the statute!) against the APA, nor will you even get to vote on a union as the percentage of the pilots represented by the APA in the combined company will exceed 65% of the total pilot group. By the time you got to an arbitration, there wouldn't be anything left; every one of you would be on the street. Don't believe me? Look at Midwest Express.

You sound like one of those hopeless US Airways East pilots.

I could look at Midwest Express all day and your argument would still make no sense. I doubt we would outsource all of our flying out to you guys for years before we merge.

We're not TWA and they made the McCaskill-Bond so you guys couldn't do that again (yes, I've read it). We would legally just need one lawyer to represent our pilot group. Ask someone smart about it before you respond to that.

A senior line holder will still be a senior line holder. A reserve guy will still be a reserve guy. An illogical AA pilot will still be an illogical AA pilot. Please tell me you're a reserve FO and I'll be senior to you.

AA73 I agree with your viewpoint 110 percent. Can u do us a HUGE favor? C & R has new posts about the "Warehouse" meeting. Could you start a new thread and copy/paste for our review? I am not a APA member currently.
Thanks and please keep the news coming. AA pilots will be forever thanksful.


Vortexx, I would love to but C&R has strict rules about copying/pasting. Not sure that would be in anyone's best interest in today's environment... That said, it looks like the meeting (and the UAL TA) is converting lots of Yeses into Nos.

Sorry, not falling for it. I don't give a rat's a$$ if we're in BK. I am willing to take a stand and fight for the profession.


From a regional pilot, thank you for your service.

You sound like one of those hopeless US Airways East pilots.



Pretty sure you missed that one by many miles.

Well, get involved. I'd love to hear what the Jet Blue Pilots are thinking.
I'm open, let's hear it.

Sincerely,
7576FO

A serious question deserves a thought out answer.

As another junior Blue guy... I'd be all for it, even with something close to a staple. (I won't argue over integration either. Although, a 5-7 year fence seems very logical - retirements will ramp up, there will be a lot of industry movement and 'everyone will be hurt/disappointed' a bit in the integration from the most senior AA pilot to the most 'senior' jB pilot. Junior will still be, and always be junior.) Having run the numbers, I would have a better career - make more money in the long run, have better health care for my family, a better funded retirement, access to a base that's closer to home, etc. etc.

Chances of a civil discussion on integration? Slim to none. In an actual integration? Years of bitterness. Probably. But, I think that everyone on all sides of any fence will have time to heal - and still have very lucrative careers.

Overall, I think that we are all hoping for the best at Blue. I don't think that anyone believes (Except the most blind juicer, selfish pilot only looking out for #1 in the short term, or BoB) that 'organic growth' is the future. Nor does anyone believe that the CEO of B6 isn't interested in running AA.

I, myself, am worried about my future... I have had multiple furloughs/bankruptcy in my career. And... I'm still what most would call a 'young person.' (Although, try explaining that to my grey hairs...) We are a good group overall... sure we have our 5%'ers. But, as a whole we like coming to work. We do our jobs very well... both from a safety standpoint and a 'customer service' aspect. As a group of 'angry pilots' - it's not so much... having spent years commuting to multiple bases all over the USA I've ridden in a lot of bitter cockpits at a lot of different carriers. I don't see that as much here. (And trust me, I can moan and whine like a old timer when I get going.) Please don't listen to all of that 'it's better than Mesa talk.' There is a whole generation of pilots coming up through the ranks that have cut their teeth with the Johnny O's, Uncle Hulas, Chuck C., Brian B. and every other lying cheating scumbag penny-pinching profiteering out for themselves and regional manager/CEO out there. We may not have been there at Continental in '83, United in '85, or Eastern in '89 - but we learned our craft under some pretty bad conditions and have our own special brand of scars and shared experiences. When the time comes, we will be there standing behind you to stand with you and stand up for what is right. Things like scope, pay, benefits, retirement... we all watched as the bean counters chipped away at the foundation and are here with you to hold up the house - for our careers and yours. Trust me, from the bottom looking up, you do learn what's important. (Even though there is a vocal minority of whiny Gen Y'ers and Millennials out here. Try to ignore them.)

I wouldn't mind being merged with the ranks of American Airlines. In a way I would welcome it. (Except for that one gate agent in REDACTED who can REDACTED my REDACTED and then flip it over and REDACTED it in his REDACTED till REDACTED comes out of every REDACTED hole in his body. Thanks again for costing me two days away from my family because you didn't want to do YOUR REDACTED JOB for two REDACTED minutes instead of chatting it up with your boyfriend you REDACTED pile of REDACTED. But, thanks to you, I go out of my way to make sure that I NEVER leave any commuters behind. So, even though you REDACTED me through your laziness and inaction, your behavior helped countless of other pilots get home to see their loved ones.)

Back on topic... I would like the protection of being a 'young person' - with years left in my career - and the satisfaction of being a pilot at a legacy carrier with the projected seniority growth that is forecast between now and 2030. The funny thing... even with a staple or integration with your group - I would upgrade roughly about the same time. Roughly about the same time that I would upgrade at B6. (Taking a 'snapshot' of today and projecting it into the future.)

Overall the 'junior' B6 pilots would probably look at a merger as 'winning the lottery.' As long as there are some job/career protections that come with the said merger. Treat us fairly, and do what's right... welcome us into your cockpits and you will be pleasantly surprised with what our group can bring to yours. (Minus that 5% of course. :) )

I haven't the slightest doubt you're correct about the quality and energy of the JetBlue pilots. We at AA are an aging bunch. I'm 50, been working at AA for 21 years, and in theory I could be an ultra-junior reserve narrowbody Captain at DFW which is my home - damned if I'll commute - and guys in my seniority range, 4,000's, are ready to fight. We've watched everything vanish. The upgrade, the lifestyle quality, the pay (obviously), every expectation in our careers seemingly vanished into magic PUP bucks into the pockets of management.

I'll put it this way - there are a lot of guys in their 50's with little to lose. Can't really start over anywhere else, and if it gets much worse, they'll simply pull the plug. Progression at AA, which has been SO stagnant, is ready to accelerate. Especially as the age 60 guys turn 65. Our last seniority shuffle moved me nearly 500 numbers in one year, the largest movement I've seen since my DOH.

I guess what I'm trying badly to say is there is a generational gap at AA. We are shockingly old as a group, and if AA remains reasonably intact, there will come a time in the next ten years when an enormous number of pilots are going to reach retirement age, and the ability of a guy who is early 30's to advance rapidly is there. Again, assuming AA as a fleet and operating entity survives in some fashion.

[QUOTE=Flyby1206;1239700]Im towards the bottom of the JB list, so most of us at my level would be happy with a DOH staple at AA..... A lot of CAs are worried about losing their seats, but with the average age being so young they would have plenty of years to re-coup that. Overall, I would say more are in favor of it than against it.

This comment should be considered at least asinine and possibly even reckless. If you are so anxious for a staple somewhere, staple yourself by applying to that company and leaving. Please don't speak on behalf of the JetBlue pilot group.

Look at the number of pilots on furlough at AA, as well as the Eagle pilots who have a seniority number. That puts the number one JB pilot below more than 1500 pilots that are not even on property at AA. Additionally, while AA's retirement numbers look good, the major numbers don't start for several years. Sounds like years of frustrating stagnation to the people at the bottom of their list.


If you were selling your house, would you immediately go to your bottom line or try to negotiate the best deal possible? Good grief, with this type of mindset, it’s no wonder the JetBlue pilot group is shooting for (but not even achieving) industry average wages, medical, etc. But, I guess I am in the 5%, the so-called chronically disgruntled.....

In application to a hypothetical JBLU-AA merger, 49 U.S.C. 42112 which is McCaskill-Bond in statute, will be of little help to the JetBlue pilots. You need to read the actual language, and then consider the mechanics of how a group of 2000 pilots or so who are unrepresented are going to fare against a union of 10,000 pilots. Regardless of which management takes over, the JBLU pilots have zero protections in the form of a collective bargaining agreement (think, minimum fleet and fragmentation), you willl have the airline of all entities representing you (read the statute!) against the APA, nor will you even get to vote on a union as the percentage of the pilots represented by the APA in the combined company will exceed 65% of the total pilot group. By the time you got to an arbitration, there wouldn't be anything left; every one of you would be on the street. Don't believe me? Look at Midwest Express.

Just an example of where one carrier was represented and the other one was not:

"Two uncontested facts support the district court's finding that ALPA breached its duty of fair representation. First, no Jet America pilot was permitted to participate in ALPA negotiations with Alaska after the merger, despite requests to do so. Second, ALPA failed to follow its own merger policy for mergers with ALPA-represented groups. This policy would have required ALPA to conduct internal negotiations with Jet America pilots, and mediate and arbitrate if necessary, before presenting its position to management."

873 F.2d 213: Cress Bernard, Jet America Pilots, et al., Plaintiffs/appellees, v. Air Line Pilots Association, International, Afl-cio,defendant/appellant,andalaska Airlines, Inc., Defendant :: US Court of Appeals Cases :: Justia (http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/873/213/432339/)

You're missing the obvious of Bernard v. ALPA: representation of the Jet America pilots was never contested by ALPA. That's the key, and it's precisely why the APA was dismissed from the TWA DFR suit because there was nothing anywhere which indicated that the APA represented TWA. Hence, no DFR owed by APA to TWA. What you seem to be implying is that there is some sort of automatic representation of a non-unionized craft and class when they merge with a unionized craft and class. Absolutely not true, which means unless the APA were to somehow say they represent JBLU - which they surely won't - then Bernard v. ALPA is not on point for you. Only upon a petition to the NMB for Single Carrier Status and only upon a finding by the NMB that both groups are a single craft and class, then, and not before, will there be any chance that the APA would represent all pilots at the New American Airlines. That process could take a year, if not longer. In the meantime, what protections do the Jet Blue pilots have?

I'm not trying to scare you, but honestly, I can't believe you guys didn't vote in ALPA. Now you have to wait at least two years for another representation drive, file the petition, run the election, and then work on a collective bargaining agreement. Until then, you guys are little more than employees-at-will. The poster above who worried about the 1500 furloughees and Eagle pilots has reason to worry.

This comment should be considered at least asinine and possibly even reckless. If you are so anxious for a staple somewhere, staple yourself by applying to that company and leaving. Please don't speak on behalf of the JetBlue pilot group.

Look at the number of pilots on furlough at AA, as well as the Eagle pilots who have a seniority number. That puts the number one JB pilot below more than 1500 pilots that are not even on property at AA. Additionally, while AA's retirement numbers look good, the major numbers don't start for several years. Sounds like years of frustrating stagnation to the people at the bottom of their list.


If you were selling your house, would you immediately go to your bottom line or try to negotiate the best deal possible? Good grief, with this type of mindset, it’s no wonder the JetBlue pilot group is shooting for (but not even achieving) industry average wages, medical, etc. But, I guess I am in the 5%, the so-called chronically disgruntled.....

I wasn't trying to speak for the JB pilot group. I am junior now, and would be junior anywhere. My apologies

And now the REAL fight begins...