Airline Pilot Forums

Dynon Avionics came out with a new hand held AHRS system. I gather that you are supposed to cover the attitude gyro with it however they don't actually say that.

It is an easy way to make an old Cessna 150 into a modern glass flight deck in just a few minutes. Very cool. I would love to rip out all the old gyro instruments, pipes and vacuum pump and go glass.

Who knows in a few years we might have a low cost HUD that I can put in my Cessna 150 too. :D

Skyhigh

You shouldn't waste money on avionics and airplanes in general. Because in your own words to do so is a "sickness".

You shouldn't waste money on avionics and airplanes in general. Because in your own words to do so is a "sickness".

Hoss,

You misunderstand. It is the same as with anything people do that has addictive tendencies.

From Wilki:

Addiction is the continued use of a mood altering substance, or behavior, despite adverse dependency consequences.

Some drive their personal or financial lives into ruin over aviation. Others cant push back until it kills them. Aviation is fine so long as it does not lead one into self destructive behaviors.

Under the current conditions if someone really must do it they can afford to spend a lot on hobby aviation and still be ahead of trying to work it as a career.

However you are correct in that if aviation can be avoided at all that is the best solution. :) Imagine what kind of mountain bike a guy could buy with the $1500 it costs to buy one a Dynon Pocket Panel D-1 or the house that could be bought with the cost of a commercial instrument CFI, IA, MEL from a big name university program?

Skyhigh

Those of you who are considering flight training; consider what your life would be like in 20 years if you used the funds for training to buy a house instead?

A paid off house would be quite an advantage in life. The 120K piece of plastic in your wallet not so much. :confused:

Skyhigh

Those of you who are considering flight training; consider what your life would be like in 20 years if you used the funds for training to buy a house instead?

A paid off house would be quite an advantage in life. The 120K piece of plastic in your wallet not so much. :confused:

Skyhigh

You never responded to my quote in another thread about it costing me about the same to get my degree and flight training as it did my brother to just get his undergrad to become an engineer. We make about the same now and I am younger than he is. He works at least twice as much as I do, and I'm only on the road once or twice a month. We both have great health insurance and a 401k, but I also have a pension on top of that. So please tell me again why my path is so wrong and stupid and why my brother or your career is so much better and more responsible?

You never responded to my quote in another thread about it costing me about the same to get my degree and flight training as it did my brother to just get his undergrad to become an engineer. We make about the same now and I am younger than he is. He works at least twice as much as I do, and I'm only on the road once or twice a month. We both have great health insurance and a 401k, but I also have a pension on top of that. So please tell me again why my path is so wrong and stupid and why my brother or your career is so much better and more responsible?

Good for you. I am glad that things are working out for you. There are variables to consider of course and no one can say what the future will bring however in general it is safe to say that conditions for pilots are on the decline.

Things might be comparable right now between you and your brother but whose to say what tomorrow will bring. You could have a medical issue and become unable to work. Your brother might get a different job that pays more. You may have to move a bunch or have to pay a lot to buy type ratings to remain employable.

If your training costs are considerable to your brothers I am forced to then guess that you do not have a college degree and choose to spend your educational dollars on flight training instead. You are at a competitive disadvantage because of that as well.

In summary things are going well for you right now and that is great. I would be making plans for what happens next if I were you. Aviation is a fickle business. Odds are that the balance between your brother and you will change.

Skyhigh

I have been a flight instructor for over 20 years now. As such I have seen the same story of addiction and destruction play out over and over again.

There are two younger guys at my airport who are being dragged down by their addiction to flying. The first can't stop dumping thousands upon thousands into his plane. I have heard him promise his wife that they will buy a house for years now but then he decides that he needs to buy a bigger engine or new radio. Everyone can tell that he just can not stop. His wife is at her limit and I am sure will draw up divorce papers soon. They have no other assets to split so I am sure that the plane will be sold and he will be out a wife, his plane and financial resources.

The other has all of the above going on but he also is an adrenaline junkie. He keeps pushing the limits and eventually will cross the line and either be killed, maimed or violated by the FAA. In any case aviation is able to evoke deep passions in people that cause them to make self destructive decisions.

The fiery end is usually the same. Either the afflicted are killed outright or completely ruined and embarrassed that they leave town and never fly again. Might as well be smoking crack.

Skyhigh

A cool thing about the Dynon Pocket Panel D-1 is that if one has a glass addiction you can deck out a Cessna 150 into a glass animal for less that the cost of a new NavCom.

I personally would like to see a certified version that I could replace my old vacuum system with for less cost and shed 35 pounds as well.

Skyhigh

Sky,

Work on the reading comprehension. I said I got a degree and all my flight training, through MEI for about the same price my brother got his degree. I never have and never will pay for a type rating, that's the companies job and if they won't do it then I'm not interested in working for them.

My brother could get a better paying job, but so could I. My company could go bankrupt and put me on the street but the same thing could happen to my brother. You make it seem as if all pilot jobs are at risk of going bye bye any minute now, and that being an engineer or a property manager have no risk of becoming unemployed. Millions of people have lost their jobs in the past few years and believe it or not they weren't all in aviation.

Life is risky no matter what you do, but you can't even fathom that someone got a degree and learned how to fly at a reasonable price and is now successful. I get it that not everyone makes it but you can't get off your soapbox that it is impossible for someone to actually have a good career flying airplanes.

I have been a flight instructor for over 20 years now. As such I have seen the same story of addiction and destruction play out over and over again.

There are two younger guys at my airport who are being dragged down by their addiction to flying. The first can't stop dumping thousands upon thousands into his plane. I have heard him promise his wife that they will buy a house for years now but then he decides that he needs to buy a bigger engine or new radio. Everyone can tell that he just can not stop. His wife is at her limit and I am sure will draw up divorce papers soon. They have no other assets to split so I am sure that the plane will be sold and he will be out a wife, his plane and financial resources.

The other has all of the above going on but he also is an adrenaline junkie. He keeps pushing the limits and eventually will cross the line and either be killed, maimed or violated by the FAA. In any case aviation is able to evoke deep passions in people that cause them to make self destructive decisions.

The fiery end is usually the same. Either the afflicted are killed outright or completely ruined and embarrassed that they leave town and never fly again. Might as well be smoking crack.

Skyhigh

Man open your eyes there are excesses all over cars, jewelry, guns,harleys, boats, swimming pools etc. You can go over board on anything.

I have been a flight instructor for over 20 years now. As such I have seen the same story of addiction and destruction play out over and over again.

SH

So does that make you an enabler or are you an addiction supplier (dealer)?

You should be ashamed of yourself supplying flight instruction to these poor kids and fueling their addiction.

SH

So does that make you an enabler or are you an addiction supplier (dealer)?

You should be ashamed of yourself supplying flight instruction to these poor kids and fueling their addiction.

Hoss,

I though you knew. I will not accept nor do I encourage young people to learn how to fly at all. However if a wealthy dentist wants an Instrument rating in his Cirrus then I am the guy. If a business owner buys a Cessna 185 and needs a tail wheel endorsement call me.

I spent plenty of years watching flight students financially brake themselves. I talked a lot of my students who were not financially well positioned to fly out of aviation.

Currently I face this situation with my own sons. Lately they have been showing an interest in learning how to fly. :eek: What should I do?

Skyhigh

You don't want to respond to my previous post?

Man open your eyes there are excesses all over cars, jewelry, guns,harleys, boats, swimming pools etc. You can go over board on anything.

I agree, horses, flying and sailing are very expensive. People can damage themselves just as quickly as aviation can. Other passions and interests are not so expensive. You can buy the same bike that Lance Armstrong rode in the Tour de France for less than 10K.

It is much easier and less expensive to satisfy passions in other pastimes.

Skyhigh

You don't want to respond to my previous post?


Sorry, I am getting to it. :)

Skyhigh

Sky,

Work on the reading comprehension. I said I got a degree and all my flight training, through MEI for about the same price my brother got his degree. I never have and never will pay for a type rating, that's the companies job and if they won't do it then I'm not interested in working for them.

My brother could get a better paying job, but so could I. My company could go bankrupt and put me on the street but the same thing could happen to my brother. You make it seem as if all pilot jobs are at risk of going bye bye any minute now, and that being an engineer or a property manager have no risk of becoming unemployed. Millions of people have lost their jobs in the past few years and believe it or not they weren't all in aviation.

Life is risky no matter what you do, but you can't even fathom that someone got a degree and learned how to fly at a reasonable price and is now successful. I get it that not everyone makes it but you can't get off your soapbox that it is impossible for someone to actually have a good career flying airplanes.

Red,

I agree it is not impossible just improbable and getting harder all the time. I could win the lottery tomorrow. The chief pilot of Alaska Airlines could move in next door. My kid could write a best selling novel. Your brother might have an engineering degree in something not all that useful.

There are a lot of variables here, however in general it is difficult to make a flying career work out for most and getting harder all the time.

Skyhigh

Red,

I agree it is not impossible just improbable and getting harder all the time. I could win the lottery tomorrow. The chief pilot of Alaska Airlines could move in next door. My kid could write a best selling novel. Your brother might have an engineering degree in something not all that useful.

There are a lot of variables here, however in general it is difficult to make a flying career work out for most and getting harder all the time.

Skyhigh

You are unbelievable! The only way you can agree that it's possible is to say having a successful career in aviation is as likely as wining the lottery.

I don't know about you, but I have never heard of an engineering degree, no matter what it's in, to not be highly valued. I forgot to mention my brother also has a masters degree and had multiple companies offering him jobs the day after he graduated college. But go ahead and keep on thinking his degree must not be that desirable.

Red,

Don't even bother Skyhigh can and will rationalize anything and everything.

Red,

Don't even bother Skyhigh can and will rationalize anything and everything.

I guess Sky doesn't want to play anymore.

I guess Sky doesn't want to play anymore.

I guess it depends upon what your definition of success is. Mine is having enough resources, control and time to do what is the most important in live.

Flying 121 for 30K a year in a town far way from home falls way short of that mark for me.

Skyhigh

Sorry for the delay. I have been busy lately.

I guess it depends upon what your definition of success is. Mine is having enough resources, control and time to do what is the most important in live.

Flying 121 for 30K a year in a town far way from home falls way short of that mark for me.

Skyhigh

Sorry for the delay. I have been busy lately.
That is one of your problems.
You believe that if someone has a different definition of success than yours then that person is wrong. You want people to agree with you without you ever agreeing that others might not see the world through your glasses.

In the above example, you use a bottom of the barrell scenario. There are other examples that you chose to ignore.

If I said that I thought being a slum lord, with 10 different properties in a ghetto of a town in the middle of nowhere, that I have put a lot of money into and could not flip them didn't sound like a success to me then I'm sure you would not agree either. That is just one possible scenario for a property manager.

USMCFLYR

I guess it depends upon what your definition of success is. Mine is having enough resources, control and time to do what is the most important in live.

Flying 121 for 30K a year in a town far way from home falls way short of that mark for me.

Skyhigh

Sorry for the delay. I have been busy lately.

Who said anything about flying 121 for 30K? You said having a successful flying career is as plausible as winning the lottery. You also alluded to there being useless engineering degrees which is ridiculous. But I guess making good money, having good benefits, working on average 1-2 days a week which leaves plenty of time for me to do a number of things, doesn't fit your definition of being successful.

That is one of your problems.
You believe that if someone has a different definition of success than yours then that person is wrong. You want people to agree with you without you ever agreeing that others might not see the world through your glasses.

In the above example, you use a bottom of the barrell scenario. There are other examples that you chose to ignore.

If I said that I thought being a slum lord, with 10 different properties in a ghetto of a town in the middle of nowhere, that I have put a lot of money into and could not flip them didn't sound like a success to me then I'm sure you would not agree either. That is just one possible scenario for a property manager.

USMCFLYR

USMCFLR,

It is my belief that most come into aviation with similar needs and expectations as I and it is to them whom I am writing to. APC has a concentration of those who are perfectly fine with blowing a small fortune without hope of ever gaining a return or having a chance at a real life and that is fine. Someone has to do it after all however I do not believe that they are representative of the majority who are in or are considering aviation as a career.

I believe that my position is firmly in the middle of the majority. As such we need to be able to earn a good living, enjoy a stable career where we are valued, and want to be home with our friends and families. The majority who are considering this profession need to fully understand what it is that they are getting themselves into and my aim is to serve those ends.

You can take the outliers who don't mind living alone in a studio apartment under unstable working conditions because they get to fly a plane.

Skyhigh

Who said anything about flying 121 for 30K? You said having a successful flying career is as plausible as winning the lottery. You also alluded to there being useless engineering degrees which is ridiculous. But I guess making good money, having good benefits, working on average 1-2 days a week which leaves plenty of time for me to do a number of things, doesn't fit your definition of being successful.

I have held many similar jobs as you and have been on call for weeks and sat at home the whole time. The devil is in the details. People don't pay for nothing.

Pilot jobs come and go. Some are better than others but in general wages and working conditions are not getting better. You might have a good deal right now but you should take a good look at the big picture and ask yourself if you will still be happy in 10 years.

Other careers build value and security over time. Everyday they add skills or knowledge that will be a benefit to them in the future. Their jobs permit them to be on the same schedule with the rest of society. They are then able to cultivate meaningful relationships and activities that the rest of us associate with having a life.

Pilots are paid for what they will do not for what they can do.

Skyhigh

USMCFLR,

It is my belief that most come into aviation with similar needs and expectations as I and it is to them whom I am writing to. APC has a concentration of those who are perfectly fine with blowing a small fortune without hope of ever gaining a return or having a chance at a real life and that is fine. Someone has to do it after all however I do not believe that they are representative of the majority who are in or are considering aviation as a career.

I believe that my position is firmly in the middle of the majority. As such we need to be able to earn a good living, enjoy a stable career where we are valued, and want to be home with our friends and families. The majority who are considering this profession need to fully understand what it is that they are getting themselves into and my aim is to serve those ends.

You can take the outliers who don't mind living alone in a studio apartment under unstable working conditions because they get to fly a plane.

Skyhigh
Once again Sky - can you acept that maybe, just maybe, everyone doesn't see the world through the same set of glasses as you?

No....you can't.
It is MY belief that many people can find happiness in aviation without having to work for ONE certain airline, in ONE certain geographical region, and make above a certain wage (set by your expectations) and may actually enjoy travel.

APC has a concentration of all types of pilots - successful and UNsuccessful.

I gave you two opportunities to influence two wanna-be pilots - fresh into the 'I'll do anything to be a pilot' mentality and you hardly gave them the time of day. Mssed opportunities for you to work your magic in my opinion.

USMCFLYR

Once again Sky - can you acept that maybe, just maybe, everyone doesn't see the world through the same set of glasses as you?

No....you can't.
It is MY belief that many people can find happiness in aviation without having to work for ONE certain airline, in ONE certain geographical region, and make above a certain wage (set by your expectations) and may actually enjoy travel.

APC has a concentration of all types of pilots - successful and UNsuccessful.

I gave you two opportunities to influence two wanna-be pilots - fresh into the 'I'll do anything to be a pilot' mentality and you hardly gave them the time of day. Mssed opportunities for you to work your magic in my opinion.

USMCFLYR

USMCFLYR,

I accept that not everyone sees the world as I do and that is great. Others have different situations that don't apply and that too is wonderful. They are hereby excused from the obligation of replying to my posts.

Skyhigh

USMCFLYR,

I accept that not everyone sees the world as I do and that is great. Others have different situations that don't apply and that too is wonderful. They are hereby excused from the obligation of replying to my posts.

Skyhigh
That is nice to hear.
Excused from replying?
Does that apply to you too? ;)

Now...are you going to get back to work and start convincing those young wanna-bes to the error of their ways?
skylover is STILL planning on going to ERAU!
SAVE HIM!

USMCFLYR

My company has had a flight department for over 40 years and most of the guys I fly with have been here 20-35 years. They are growing in a down market and rely heavily on their airplanes. I'm sure they want to shut down the flight department so they can retract and not grow their business.

I'm sure a property manager has never lost their job. Along with everything right now there are no guarantees in any field, but some are more secure and stable than others. And believe it or not there are some flying jobs that are secure and stable.

You ask if I will be happy in ten years, why wouldn't I? Ten years from now I will probably be making more money because I am a valued employee that gets a raise on a yearly basis because they want us to stick around.

You say other careers build value and security over time, so does the one I have. And I guess I can't and don't build skills and knowledge on a daily basis that are valuable in the future. I don't want to be on the same schedule as the rest of society because that would mean I would have to go to work everyday and work long hours. Everyone I know wishes that they could have my schedule with my amount of time off. According to you I am then not able to cultivate meaningful relationships and activities that provide me with a good life because I have too much time on my hands?

My wife works from home and we have our first child on the way. We will be able to raise that child together on a daily basis because of our work schedules. Not many people are that lucky, probably not even yourself. I should quite my job tomorrow so that I can finally find a stable, good paying, 8-5 job so I can be away from home more, and be more stressed out by working a job I don't like so that I can associate more with society, right? Yeah, I will get right on that!

That is nice to hear.
Excused from replying?
Does that apply to you too? ;)

Now...are you going to get back to work and start convincing those young wanna-bes to the error of their ways?
skylover is STILL planning on going to ERAU!
SAVE HIM!

USMCFLYR

Best to let some go. There is an untold mass of silent readers here who are on the fence and can be saved. Skylover is on the aviation pipe and will not come off it until he is ready. When that day comes we both will be there.

Besides that most of the ones who start out the most determined sounding loose their passion just as fast.

Skyhigh

My company has had a flight department for over 40 years and most of the guys I fly with have been here 20-35 years. They are growing in a down market and rely heavily on their airplanes. I'm sure they want to shut down the flight department so they can retract and not grow their business.

I'm sure a property manager has never lost their job. Along with everything right now there are no guarantees in any field, but some are more secure and stable than others. And believe it or not there are some flying jobs that are secure and stable.

You ask if I will be happy in ten years, why wouldn't I? Ten years from now I will probably be making more money because I am a valued employee that gets a raise on a yearly basis because they want us to stick around.

You say other careers build value and security over time, so does the one I have. And I guess I can't and don't build skills and knowledge on a daily basis that are valuable in the future. I don't want to be on the same schedule as the rest of society because that would mean I would have to go to work everyday and work long hours. Everyone I know wishes that they could have my schedule with my amount of time off. According to you I am then not able to cultivate meaningful relationships and activities that provide me with a good life because I have too much time on my hands?

My wife works from home and we have our first child on the way. We will be able to raise that child together on a daily basis because of our work schedules. Not many people are that lucky, probably not even yourself. I should quite my job tomorrow so that I can finally find a stable, good paying, 8-5 job so I can be away from home more, and be more stressed out by working a job I don't like so that I can associate more with society, right? Yeah, I will get right on that!

Red,

I hope the best for you. I have six kids. It changes things. If you have found aviation nirvana than bully for you. Most will not. It is a difficult business and getting harder everyday.

Skyhigh

Plenty of people take jobs that they hate. Who grows up dreaming of crawling under someones house to work on their sewer line or to work all day inside of peoples mouths?

They say we never really grow up until we place the needs of those we are responsible for ahead of our own. Some never reach that point and only think of there own wants and needs.

Why do they do it? Because it provides a better life for them and for those who they are responsible for. Most jobs are like that.

Skyhigh