Airline Pilot Forums

Ouch. Maybe US pilots should publicly back AA management.

American CEO bashes US Airways; calls it desperate - Yahoo! Finance (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/american-ceo-bashes-us-airways-154508886.html)

Parker and Horton both have huge egos, their greed will never be satisfied. Horton wants more than 60 million and Parker will not be satisfied with $20 million change in control. US Airways pilots back Horton just to P.Off Parker. I like that.

I think the R57 relay was on the 727, that was my intention. After I signed up I wondered if it was R53. Two full days on the electrical system in PI ground school, so it should have stuck, but it's been a few years. ;-)

You must have been instructed by Captain KVAR. Good memories.

You must have been instructed by Captain KVAR. Good memories.

Indeed they were.

Maybe we could use Horton to pressure Doug, and if it ****es him off? C'est la vie. He has seemed too worried about us being ****ed, right?

"conquistadores del cielo"?

Really? :rolleyes:

Do you think the AMR/US Air merger is a done deal and will happen?

Ouch. Maybe US pilots should publicly back AA management.

American CEO bashes US Airways; calls it desperate - Yahoo! Finance (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/american-ceo-bashes-us-airways-154508886.html)

Did you miss the part about an AA/US merger the only way to pay for employee aka pilot raises? Why don't you just shoot yourself in the foot too.

G

Do you think the AMR/US Air merger is a done deal and will happen?

I don't, but it's just a gut feeling. Parker and Horton's interests are contradictory, so that needs to be worked out.

Did you miss the part about an AA/US merger the only way to pay for employee aka pilot raises? Why don't you just shoot yourself in the foot too.

G

Do you believe that? It's just that Parker has chosen to make it that way, and we have allowed it. He could change it, doubt he will, or we can get one when the legal battle is over.

Do you believe that? It's just that Parker has chosen to make it that way, and we have allowed it. He could change it, doubt he will, or we can get one when the legal battle is.

Could we see a decent raise without the merger? Yes, if our wonderfull union hadn't gotten us parked and an injunction slapped on. The only way to see rates/contract comparable to Delta or Alaska is through a merger. Part of that is due to our current union and part is due to the numbers ie financials, revenue, etc.

G

a very calculated and intentional jab, especially with Neidl's comment, on Parker's big earning day...

Could we see a decent raise without the merger? Yes, if our wonderfull union hadn't gotten us parked and an injunction slapped on. The only way to see rates/contract comparable to Delta or Alaska is through a merger. Part of that is due to our current union and part is due to the numbers ie financials, revenue, etc.

G

I agree the injunction was stupid, but it's not just the union that got us parked. The company is using the seniority fight to delay a contract. Period. It doesn't matter what the union is, what we think or anything else.

"conquistadores del cielo"?

Really? :rolleyes:

You do know what that is, right?

I agree the injunction was stupid, but it's not just the union that got us parked. The company is using the seniority fight to delay a contract. Period. It doesn't matter what the union is, what we think or anything else.
It's not your union that got you parked? Santa? Tooth fairy? Who started the seniority fight? Santa? Tooth fairy? Anyone but the east pilots it seems.

It's not your union that got you parked? Santa? Tooth fairy? Who started the seniority fight? Santa? Tooth fairy? Anyone but the east pilots it seems.

Cacti, dude, where ya been man? What did you think of the story?

People make a mistake when they underestimate Tom Horton. Employees asking for a merger?....Seriously?

Organic growth with orders and options for 1,000 airplanes (if they all show up) is awesome. We just need some serious sweetener on the TA that I hope gets voted down.

...............

People make a mistake when they underestimate Tom Horton. Employees asking for a merger?....Seriously?

Organic growth with orders and options for 1,000 airplanes (if they all show up) is awesome. We just need some serious sweetener on the TA that I hope gets voted down.

It will be interesting to see if you can pull off organic growth. Most people in this business think the market is too mature to pull off that kind of growth. We'll see.

A stand alone AA is all the other airlines biggest fear, it will destabilize the industry and probably plunge it into a money losing era once again.

A stand alone AA is all the other airlines biggest fear, it will destabilize the industry and probably plunge it into a money losing era once again.

For once I must agree with my co-worker. Cactiboss is dead-on with regard to this one, even though I've taken some exception with some of his prior statements.

And before you start in on me, I'm not a Clearyite but a third-lister who has consistently voted for change!

I agree the injunction was stupid, but it's not just the union that got us parked. The company is using the seniority fight to delay a contract. Period. It doesn't matter what the union is, what we think or anything else.

It is management using the actions of USAPA to their advantage. If USAPA gave up the DOH mantra and accepted the arbitrated list then we would take management out of the picture. But, as you say, that step from USAPA will not occur until Judge Silver rules. The worst nightmare Parker could have would be for the pilots to be unified. We only weaken our position by being split. That split will not come together until the seniority issue is settled by the court or the East. The West is not going to budge from the Nic list because that was the list that was the product of the process. The only way management could change this equation would be to throw some serious money on the table to force the hand of USAPA on delivering a contract.

This all leads up to the Parker/Horton cat fight. The payoff is huge for the management team that leads the combined operation. If Parker can force Horton out then he and his team get the big bucks. Hundreds of millions of dollars are at stake for management. No one is going down quietly. If Parker could show a unified work force on both sides of the equation then he would have a much stronger case with the creditors and ultimately, the judge. Parker's case is weakened by the flaws in the present US Airways merger. His business plan for AMR, however, is much stronger than Horton's plan. If Parker were to clean up the mess he has here then he would be in a great position before the Bankrupcy judge.

I think Parker is seeing this deal slip away. He started off the right way with AMR labor but his follow up moves have been weak. It willbe interesting to see the next moves in this ame.

I agree the injunction was stupid, but it's not just the union that got us parked. The company is using the seniority fight to delay a contract. Period. It doesn't matter what the union is, what we think or anything else.

The union is asking for something the company can't give it, DOH. That's why Parker went to the courts to get clearification (deliberately misspelled). Is he dragging his feet on other parts of the contract? Well yes, he's taking advantage of a situation, but what do you expect.

G

For once I must agree with my co-worker. Cactiboss is dead-on with regard to this one, even though I've taken some exception with some of his prior statements.

And before you start in on me, I'm not a Clearyite but a third-lister who has consistently voted for change!

This might surprise you, but me too. But just this once, non-binding, non-precedent...:)

If I were an AA employee I would like the sound of a stand alone, growing airline. I just don't think that is possible today and if that is what they are counting on, it won't work. Everyone else will not step aside and let it happen and there would be a blood bath.

A stand alone AA is all the other airlines biggest fear, it will destabilize the industry and probably plunge it into a money losing era once again.

That's a really valid point and a good way to look at the big picture. Amazing that one man, Horton, can put all the employees of AA and the industry as a whole in harms way, just so he can get a couple hundred million cash-out of AA's equity. Wow, what a scum sucking piece of garbage.

GQ

It is management using the actions of USAPA to their advantage. If USAPA gave up the DOH mantra and accepted the arbitrated list then we would take management out of the picture. But, as you say, that step from USAPA will not occur until Judge Silver rules. The worst nightmare Parker could have would be for the pilots to be unified. We only weaken our position by being split. That split will not come together until the seniority issue is settled by the court or the East. The West is not going to budge from the Nic list because that was the list that was the product of the process. The only way management could change this equation would be to throw some serious money on the table to force the hand of USAPA on delivering a contract.

This all leads up to the Parker/Horton cat fight. The payoff is huge for the management team that leads the combined operation. If Parker can force Horton out then he and his team get the big bucks. Hundreds of millions of dollars are at stake for management. No one is going down quietly. If Parker could show a unified work force on both sides of the equation then he would have a much stronger case with the creditors and ultimately, the judge. Parker's case is weakened by the flaws in the present US Airways merger. His business plan for AMR, however, is much stronger than Horton's plan. If Parker were to clean up the mess he has here then he would be in a great position before the Bankrupcy judge.

I think Parker is seeing this deal slip away. He started off the right way with AMR labor but his follow up moves have been weak. It willbe interesting to see the next moves in this ame.

I agree with your post, but I think there could be another path for him. Acknowledge the seniority battle has to be settled in the courts, but stop using it as an excuse to getting a contract. Put the rest in place and when we have a final answer, that becomes section 22. We are separate anyway, so what's the difference? It's just that he wants to save the nickels. Will that bite him in the public, governmental and corporate eye? We'll see.

A stand alone AA is all the other airlines biggest fear, it will destabilize the industry and probably plunge it into a money losing era once again.

Most analysts agree U would be the first casualty of such a scenario, which is probably the foundation of Parker's desperation. Should U eventually collapse to the point of fragmentation, it might even be healthy. Not saying I would applaud such a situation, but that might be one of Horton's desires.

Most analysts agree U would be the first casualty of such a scenario, which is probably the foundation of Parker's desperation. Should U eventually collapse to the point of fragmentation, it might even be healthy. Not saying I would applaud such a situation, but that might be one of Horton's desires.

I wouldn't count on that. DL tried it too.

I agree with your post, but I think there could be another path for him. Acknowledge the seniority battle has to be settled in the courts, but stop using it as an excuse to getting a contract. Put the rest in place and when we have a final answer, that becomes section 22. We are separate anyway, so what's the difference? It's just that he wants to save the nickels. Will that bite him in the public, governmental and corporate eye? We'll see.

Sounds like a good idea. Set aside seniority (section 22) and work on everything else. The problem is USAPA's previous leadership got us parked, an injunction, and managed to fragment the pilot group. I swear they were working for management, not the pilots.

GQ

Sounds like a good idea. Set aside seniority (section 22) and work on everything else. The problem is USAPA's previous leadership got us parked, an injunction, and managed to fragment the pilot group. I swear they were working for management, not the pilots.

GQ


I was no fan of the previous union leadership but no matter who is running the union, Parker would have to see the value in it. He has convinced the NMB we can't move forward, so it would have to be voluntary and that is probably a pipe dream unless it somehow affected the AA merger.

I wouldn't count on that. DL tried it too.

That's right. I remember talking to a Delta pilot that was ****ed, because of the proposed AWA/US merger. He said they were slashing fares in hopes of putting the nail in US's coffin.

GQ

I wouldn't count on that. DL tried it too.

Wasn't that prior to all the mergers that have left U neither fish (competitive global legacy) nor fowl (LCC) ?

Horton (and others) might think differently now. Just sayin.........

I agree with your post, but I think there could be another path for him. Acknowledge the seniority battle has to be settled in the courts, but stop using it as an excuse to getting a contract. Put the rest in place and when we have a final answer, that becomes section 22. We are separate anyway, so what's the difference? It's just that he wants to save the nickels. Will that bite him in the public, governmental and corporate eye? We'll see.

Yes, I agree. If Parker puts his money where his mouth is and offers a proposal that brings us up to industry rates and terms within a 5 year time plan, similar to what he offered the APA, that would go a long way to settling his LCC labor issue and make him much stronger in the eyes of the court and Wall Street. The money will follow the strongest dog. They are looking for the Alpha Male. I just don't know if Parker can play that role. He is more comfortable being the money guy. He is a manager, not a leader. But, I don't think Horton is either, although I acknowledge my lack of familiarity with his personality or style. What I have read about and seen since last November is not impressive.

As an aside, and strictly 3rd hand from someone who talked with a management type, Parker and Horton are said to dislike each other vehemently and any talk of them being buddies is false. Someone must have taken the others sandwiches long ago in the AMR cubicle they both worked in.

Wasn't that prior to all the mergers that have left U neither fish (competitive global legacy) nor fowl (LCC) ?

Horton (and others) might think differently now. Just sayin.........

No, it was prior to the AWA merger and US Air/ways has never really been fish nor fowl. Not even when AA tried to compete against CLT with RDU.

The investor conference call had some interesting things in it today, might be of interest to you. Kirby called CLT one of the best hubs in the country. I a replay will be available at USAirways.com soon if you're interested.

I agree with your post, but I think there could be another path for him. Acknowledge the seniority battle has to be settled in the courts, but stop using it as an excuse to getting a contract. Put the rest in place and when we have a final answer, that becomes section 22. We are separate anyway, so what's the difference? It's just that he wants to save the nickels. Will that bite him in the public, governmental and corporate eye? We'll see.
Let's see your union gave the nmb a contract with doh in section 22, and you blame parker? Usapa was founded for one reason and that reason was not to get you a contract.

Most analysts agree U would be the first casualty of such a scenario, which is probably the foundation of Parker's desperation. Should U eventually collapse to the point of fragmentation, it might even be healthy. Not saying I would applaud such a situation, but that might be one of Horton's desires.
I think you are not seeing the big picture. Every analyst says the industry is mature, yet your ceo is going to "grow and expand". Who do you think will get killed and fragmented in that scenario? My bet is on AMR. Parker will merge us with DAL licked y split and and ual/dal will pick on amr's carcass shortly after you go into bk2.

Let's see your union gave the nmb a contract with doh in section 22, and you blame parker? Usapa was founded for one reason and that reason was not to get you a contract.

Ah...it's good to have things back to normal.:p

No, it was prior to the AWA merger and US Air/ways has never really been fish nor fowl. Not even when AA tried to compete against CLT with RDU.

The investor conference call had some interesting things in it today, might be of interest to you. Kirby called CLT one of the best hubs in the country. I a replay will be available at USAirways.com soon if you're interested.

I would expect Kirby to say something like that.

I think you are not seeing the big picture. Every analyst says the industry is mature, yet your ceo is going to "grow and expand". Who do you think will get killed and fragmented in that scenario? My bet is on AMR. Parker will merge us with DAL licked y split and and ual/dal will pick on amr's carcass shortly after you go into bk2.

Yes, U is poised to take over the world. All the other carriers are drooling over U. My apologies for being so misguided. ;)

Yes, U is poised to take over the world. All the other carriers are drooling over U. My apologies for being so misguided. ;)
Not U, I meant DAL buying U. How do you think the industry will react to an "expanding" AMR bringing everyone's yelds down?

I would expect Kirby to say something like that.

Do you dispute it? It is our best hub and I believe I heard the cheapest per passenger in the nation. I don't know how it would be with a higher cost structure airline.

Have you had a change of heart about a merger with US?

Enter Content

Not U, I meant DAL buying U. How do you think the industry will react to an "expanding" AMR bringing everyone's yelds down?

I don't see DAL buying all of U. Regulators would probably force a break-up in that situation. Besides if AMR were to expand significantly, they'd likely still be smaller then DAL and UAL and arguably smaller then AA would be if they were to merge with U.

I don't see industry hysteria regarding an expanding AA unless their labor costs were significantly lower and thus a threat for forcing unsustainable pricing for the others.

Do you dispute it? It is our best hub and I believe I heard the cheapest per passenger in the nation. I don't know how it would be with a higher cost structure airline.

Have you had a change of heart about a merger with US?

Oh, I'm sure CLT is your best hub, but it's not utopia for AA or others. I've been consistent in saying I'd prefer a stand-alone internally expanding AA vs. A U merger, but I have no confidence of those currently running AA. I put a merger of U and AA inside BK as slim and 50/50 after BK exit.

I don't see industry hysteria regarding an expanding AA unless their labor costs were significantly lower and thus a threat for forcing unsustainable pricing for the others.
Hmmm, isn't that what a stand alone means?

Oh, I'm sure CLT is your best hub, but it's not utopia for AA or others.

But a tad better than the Southeastern/Mid-Atlantic hub AA has.

I'd prefer a stand-alone internally expanding AA
Where do you think you would expand? That is the whole point, amr has no where to go without stealing traffic from someone else. I guess you can believe the other airlines will just sit there and let it happen, my opinion is that they won't.

Not U, I meant DAL buying U. How do you think the industry will react to an "expanding" AMR bringing everyone's yelds down?


I don't see that at all. Too much overlap, and it wouldn't do anything to plug the holes in our network. Unless you see something I am missing.

If AMR is gonna make it as a stand alone there is gonna be a bloodbath over there from both employees and creditors. Is Horton capable of pulling that off? I honestly do not know, but I have my doubts as to their capability to grow the cornerstones to the degree needed to close the revenue gap as a standalone. I hope for the employees' sake they can with minimal damage..

Unless you see something I am missing.


I am going by what was told to a group of us at a company function. The point was that there isn't the overlap people think, the landscape has changed dramatically since the slot swap. DAL has got swa in atl and threatening their southeast dominance, ual has 57% of new york traffic, swa now has a foothold in dca. Look at U strong areas and it fits quite nicely. We are all competing for the same customers, no one can grow anymore to grab market share, just ask va.

It is management using the actions of USAPA to their advantage. If USAPA gave up the DOH mantra and accepted the arbitrated list then we would take management out of the picture. But, as you say, that step from USAPA will not occur until Judge Silver rules. The worst nightmare Parker could have would be for the pilots to be unified. We only weaken our position by being split. That split will not come together until the seniority issue is settled by the court or the East. The West is not going to budge from the Nic list because that was the list that was the product of the process. The only way management could change this equation would be to throw some serious money on the table to force the hand of USAPA on delivering a contract.

This all leads up to the Parker/Horton cat fight. The payoff is huge for the management team that leads the combined operation. If Parker can force Horton out then he and his team get the big bucks. Hundreds of millions of dollars are at stake for management. No one is going down quietly. If Parker could show a unified work force on both sides of the equation then he would have a much stronger case with the creditors and ultimately, the judge. Parker's case is weakened by the flaws in the present US Airways merger. His business plan for AMR, however, is much stronger than Horton's plan. If Parker were to clean up the mess he has here then he would be in a great position before the Bankrupcy judge.

I think Parker is seeing this deal slip away. He started off the right way with AMR labor but his follow up moves have been weak. It willbe interesting to see the next moves in this ame.

I don't know for sure- the divide-and-conquer design paradigm, a major tenet of colonialism, has literally made this whole deal possible for Parker. It looks like Parker might be working the same formula for his merger plan.

"conquistadores del cielo"?

Really? :rolleyes:

No sh!t! "conquerors of the skies" my a$$......more like head commodities traders dealing in the fascinating product of "airline seats"! Their quixotic self-description associating with the romance of flight is such a joke....equivalent to captains referring to themselves as CEOs and "chairmen of the board of directors", or "capi di tutti capi" of their airplanes...

If AA grows internally it will only be in line with the growth of the economy. 2-4% a year, with the possible exception of some much needed Asia expansion. 1980,s style growth is over and will never happen again. Horton may be many things but he isn't stupid. I still think AA will emerge independent and then merge, possibly with LCC, although unlike most of my colleagues I am not in favor of a LCC tie up due to the inevitable seniority train wreck that will keep us jammed up for the duration of our careers while Douggie laughs all the way to the bank..

Catcus Mike: Do you really think any of this depends on USPA giving up DOH for a merger to occur? Do you really think judge Silver forcing the Nic will bring a unified pilot group? I agree with your post concerning the motivations of management. Parker doesn't need anything from the pilot group to make this deal happen. So sit back and relax and watch the East get more 330's and the attrition begin.

Catcus Mike: Do you really think any of this depends on USPA giving up DOH for a merger to occur? Do you really think judge Silver forcing the Nic will bring a unified pilot group? I agree with your post concerning the motivations of management. Parker doesn't need anything from the pilot group to make this deal happen. So sit back and relax and watch the East get more 330's and the attrition begin.

Flamebait. Stay classy CaptainBigWood.

That was flamebait: Parker loves the current tension with no contract. Enjoy the ride we are all along for. At the present we have no input.

Catcus Mike: Do you really think any of this depends on USPA giving up DOH for a merger to occur? Do you really think judge Silver forcing the Nic will bring a unified pilot group? I agree with your post concerning the motivations of management. Parker doesn't need anything from the pilot group to make this deal happen. So sit back and relax and watch the East get more 330's and the attrition begin.

Whatever USAPA chooses to believe in has no relevance to whether a merger occurs.

If Judge Silver rules that the company is liable for damages should they not use the Nicolau Award as the seniority list then I would expect the vast majority of the East pilots to say to USAPA "enough is enough" and force a change in their representation that will actually work torward a joint contract. We have West pilots flying East metal right now. They are the guys coming off furlough. We have had East guys out West when we were the ones hiring. There were no issues. The pilot groups will be unified once everyone realizes that it is in our best interests to accept the seniority process that took place 6 years ago and work on actually getting paid more than regional or startup wages. The longer we get delayed in that goal the farther we get behind Delta and UCAL. No SLI, no joint contract. No joint contract, no pay raises.

"The pilot groups will be unified once everyone realizes that it is in our best interests to accept the seniority process that took place 6 years ago"


Well now thats the rub isn't it? The process of 6 years ago. The "Nic", the biggest windfall for one pilot group the industry has had forced on another pilot group. I suspect it is in the best interest of this author no doubt.


Doubt it and hope not for the next group of pilots in a similar situation. Have no doubt, no matter how good it may be for you now, the sun will not always shine in your little corner of the profession and what goes down over at U will become the standard, maybe for you next!

Here's an article that shows how Horton is such a douchebag.

Is American Airlines' CEO panicking? | Mitchell Schnurman | Dallas Business, Texas Busin... (http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/07/28/4134144/american-airlines-panic-attack.html)

Here's an article that shows how Horton is such a douchebag.

Is American Airlines' CEO panicking? | Mitchell Schnurman | Dallas Business, Texas Busin... (http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/07/28/4134144/american-airlines-panic-attack.html)
Actually he is embarrassing himself quite badly. The fact that in a pathetic move he sent an nda to every airline in the us is a complete and utter joke and a sure sign he is not seriously analyzing a merger.

Actually he is embarrassing himself quite badly. The fact that in a pathetic move he sent an nda to every airline in the us is a complete and utter joke and a sure sign he is not seriously analyzing a merger.

What he's really analyzing is how big his multi-million bonus will be.

What he's really analyzing is how big his multi-million bonus will be.
Yup, I hear he basically threw a tantrum with the ucc over their preference for a u merger and as payback decided to send every airline an NDA.

"The pilot groups will be unified once everyone realizes that it is in our best interests to accept the seniority process that took place 6 years ago"


Well now thats the rub isn't it? The process of 6 years ago. The "Nic", the biggest windfall for one pilot group the industry has had forced on another pilot group. I suspect it is in the best interest of this author no doubt.


Doubt it and hope not for the next group of pilots in a similar situation. Have no doubt, no matter how good it may be for you now, the sun will not always shine in your little corner of the profession and what goes down over at U will become the standard, maybe for you next!


The Nicolau was not a windfall for the West pilots. We had 517 East pilots placed on top of our #1 pilot, out of proportion to the number of widebodies the East had at the time.

I lost 18% seniority on the Nic list, not a windfall for me. For those of us with seniority there was nothing to gain on this list.

Relative seniority by aircraft category is the standard for seniority list integrations. The last 10 years has seen every SLI done this way, see NWA/Delta for evidence of that. The Delta SLI was done the same way as the Nicolau Award. McCaskell- Bond is also relative seniority. That is the standard.

I have said this over and over and it needs to be repeated. It does not matter if you think the Nic was fair or not. It was the product of the process that was agreed to by both sides. You have to accept the results of that process and move on from there. Otherwise you have what we have here now, stagnation on pay and workrules and divisions between the groups.

Instead of focusing on the battle with management we have pilots hell bent on grabbing jobs and seniority that they were not granted the first time. The West has only asked that the award be implemented because that was the result of all the negotiations, mediations and the arbitration. We followed the process, we expect it to be implemented.