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JonnyKnoxville already posted this on an older Comair thread, but given its significance it deserves a new thread.

A sad day not just for everyone at Comair, but really for the entire regional industry. What was once the leading regional carrier, including pilots who took a stand and put their careers at risk to hold the line against Delta in the 2001 strike, will soon simply disappear.

Good luck to all the good brothers and sisters at Comair.


News Release Issued: July 27, 2012 8:30 AM EDT
Comair to Cease Operations

No significant changes to schedules or locations served for Delta customers

ATLANTA, July 27, 2012 /PRNewswire/ -- Delta Air Lines (NYSE: DAL) today announced its subsidiary, Comair, Inc. will cease operations after Sept. 29, 2012.
(Logo: http://photos.prnewswire.com/prnh/20090202/DELTALOGO (http://photos.prnewswire.com/prnh/20090202/DELTALOGO) )
In a memo issued today to the Officers and Directors of Delta Air Lines, Don Bornhorst, Senior Vice President of Delta Connection, said:
"While regional flying has and will remain a key component of Delta's network, customer expectations and the unit costs of regional flying have evolved. In response, Delta recently announced its plans to reduce the total number of regional jets in its network while adding more mainline flying. This includes reducing the number of 50-seat regional jets from nearly 350 aircraft to 125 or fewer in the upcoming years. As a result of this reduction and changes to its customer-focused business strategy, Delta has made the difficult decision to cease Comair's operations."
Ryan Gumm, President of Comair, communicated Delta's decision this morning to Comair employees in a memo, the full text of which is included below.
The discontinuation of Comair's operations will not result in any significant changes to Delta's network, which has enough flexibility to accommodate these changes. Currently, Comair accounts for approximately one percent of Delta's network capacity. There will be no disruption to customers and no significant adjustments to Delta's flight schedule or locations served. All customers who travel on the Delta network, whether on Delta Connection flights or mainline aircraft, can continue to make travel plans with Delta as they have in the past.
Cincinnati will continue to be an important market in Delta's worldwide network. Over the past several years, working with community leaders, Delta has right-sized capacity at Cincinnati to better match service to local passenger demand. Cincinnati is now a profitable market for Delta and the city continues to enjoy over 120 peak daily flights, with non-stop service to 49 destinations. No reductions in the number of Delta flights are planned at Cincinnati as a result of this decision.
To All Comair Employees
From Ryan Gumm, President
Subject Comair to Cease Operations
Date July 27, 2012
All,
Today, I am writing to let you know that Delta has made the difficult decision to cease Comair's operations after September 29, 2012.
Delta recently announced its intent to reduce the overall number of 50-seat regional jets in its network from nearly 350 to 125 or fewer in light of the significant changes in the economic and competitive conditions in the airline industry. We believed this announcement would have a negative impact on Comair because we operate some of the oldest 50-seat aircraft in the Delta Connection fleet, which also have the highest unit cost per flight hour. And, in fact, Delta has decided to remove the remaining 16 Comair 50-seaters from the Delta network, leaving Comair with only 28 aircraft in scheduled service. This further reduction of Comair's active fleet will only create higher unit costs, which equates to a business model that is no longer sustainable in this competitive regional environment.
I understand that today's news is very difficult and raises many questions for you and your family. Human Resources is prepared to directly assist you during this time. They will post a memo and other documents on the Human Resources Epic page to keep you informed of the assistance available and to help answer many of your questions. We will also have staff available over the weekend to answer questions if needed. If after reviewing the information on Epic you have any additional questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to reach out to your departmental leadership as well.
The discontinuation of Comair's operations is in no way a failure or a reflection of your work – it is an unfortunate necessity due to the economic limitations of our aging aircraft, cost structure, the long-term outlook for 50-seat aircraft, and our challenging industry and economy. The quality of our operations has continued to be outstanding during our lengthy restructuring efforts, and I am honored to have had the opportunity to lead such a committed team. I am asking that each of you recognize the importance of remaining focused on safety and the job at hand as we continue operations throughout the wind-down period. Your continued commitment and your dedication to a safe and reliable operation is a testament to the professional team we have built here at Comair.
About Delta Air Lines
Delta Air Lines serves more than 160 million customers each year. During the past year, Delta was named domestic "Airline of the Year" by the readers of Travel Weekly magazine, was named the "Top Tech-Friendly U.S. Airline" (http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1525) by PCWorld magazine for its innovation in technology and won the Business Travel News Annual Airline Survey (http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1466). With an industry-leading global network (http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=18&cat=36), Delta and the Delta Connection (http://www.delta.com/planning_reservations/plan_flight/flight_partners/delta_connection_carriers/index.jsp) carriers offer service to nearly 350 destinations in 65 countries on six continents. Headquartered in Atlanta, Delta employs 80,000 employees worldwide and operates a mainline fleet of more than 700 aircraft. A founding member of the SkyTeam (http://www.skyteam.com/) global alliance, Delta participates in the industry's leading trans-Atlantic joint venture (http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=18&item=131) with Air France-KLM (http://www.airfranceklm-finance.com/en) and Alitalia (http://www.alitalia.com/). Including its worldwide alliance partners, Delta offers customers more than 13,000 daily flights, with hubs in Amsterdam (http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=18&item=108), Atlanta (http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=18&item=100), Cincinnati (http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=18&item=106), Detroit (http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=18&item=101), Memphis (http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=18&item=105), Minneapolis-St. Paul (http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=18&item=102), New York-LaGuardia (http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=18&item=103), New York-JFK (http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=18&item=103), Paris-Charles de Gaulle (http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=18&item=107), Salt Lake City (http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=18&item=104) and Tokyo-Narita (http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=18&item=109). The airline's service includes the SkyMiles (http://www.delta.com/skymiles/) frequent flier program, a world-class airline loyalty program; the award-winning BusinessElite (http://www.delta.com/traveling_checkin/inflight_services/business_elite/index.jsp) service; and more than 50 Delta Sky Clubs (http://www.delta.com/traveling_checkin/airport_information/delta_sky_club/index.jsp) in airports worldwide. Delta is investing more than $3 billion through 2013 in airport facilities and global products, services and technology to enhance the customer experience in the air and on the ground. Customers can check in for flights, print boarding passes, check bags and review flight status at delta.com (http://www.delta.com/).
SOURCE Delta Air Lines
For press inquiries: Delta Corporate Communications, +1-404-715-2554, News archive at news.delta.com

Many friends there. Good luck to all. Overall a good airline, good people.

How sad.


Scary to see how powerful "mother Delta" can be...

Omg guys I'm so sorry to hear this. I thought this whole thing was just a negotiations tactic. I never thought I'd see a day where such a great airline with fantastic staff would cease to exist.

Scary to see how this industry treats a career regional airline.

I'm very angry and I don't even work there... So Comair refuses to participate in this "race to the bottom" with other commuters and it gets shut down?

This is what happens in this industry when you demand to be compensated fairly for your services.


I guess other companies should follow Mesa's lead and work for peanuts in order to survive. The biggest problem is the majors know this.

My condolences to the Comair family. Over the years of jumpseating on your airline I was treated with nothing but kindness and respect. I just want to say Thank You. Not only for the friendly rides, but also for standing up for our profession. You will always have my respect for that. I know several people at Comair, including individuals supporting families. I'll help in any way I can. :(

I'm very angry and I don't even work there... So Comair refuses to ***** itself out to in order to compete with the orther commuters and it gets shut down?

This is what happens in this industry when you demand to be compensated fairly for your services.


I guess other companies should follow Mesa's lead and work for peanuts

This is exactly the way the regional model is supposed to work. Wholly owned simply allowed DL more flexibility in this case...no contracts to break, no early termination fees.

Scary to see how this industry treats a career regional airline.

I think it just confirmed there is no such thing. Sorry the "careerists" suggested otherwise.

I think it just confirmed there is no such thing. Sorry the "careerists" suggested otherwise.

While it is sad, you cannot say it's anything new in this industry. Did you not see what happened to Eastern, Pan Am, TWA, Branniff, etc. pilots?

They were all Major Airlines, not 50 seat RJ operators.

I call it the Churn Game, and the airline CEO's have been playing it for a very long time. Delta's Richard Anderson was a Lawyer at CAL, working for Frank Lorenzo back when they took Eastern apart.

When ever one group stands up to Management;

Schwack!

Chopped up and sold off.

So, what's ALPA National's PLAN going forward??

They haven't had a plan to deal with this whipsawing, since deregulation in 1978.

Why not?

How many "Strategic Planing Committee" guys does ALPA National employ? And why? Where is the National SOS? That is the only 'hammer' we have, but there has NEVER been any talk of actually using it.

And don't be surprised when Cabotage raises it's ugly head in the next 10 years...

And don't be surprised when Cabotage raises it's ugly head in the next 10 years...


Listen all y'all its a cabotage!

http://emptyv.multimedia.cx/images/beastieboys-sabotage-3.jpg

Anyone sticking around a regional thinking it's a career airline is doing a huge disservice to themselves. The entire business model of a regional airlines is to be competitive with the lowest costs possible, including labor. Most CEO's of regionals have stated this at one time or another, but some of us choose not to listen. The day Comair went on strike Delta decided to shut them down. It was just a matter of time. For those that are still at various regionals, get your time and get out. You will continue to be turned against each other at the expense of management every time your company tries to lower costs to compete and secure a new contract with new, fancy, RJ's. I remember this happening in CVG some years back. DELTA decides to move Comair flying to JFK and add CHQ in CVG. I'm just being myself and saying hello to all the Comair folks and getting ignored or sometimes even getting negative looks from their crew members. WHY? It's because people thought of it as a "career" airlines and that other regionals are taking their jobs. That couldn't be further from the truth. Delta is the big cheese here, so if you want to have some say if your future (just some) then join the big leagues when your time comes and don't settle yourself short! Regional airlines are not, nor ever will be, career airlines!

While it is sad, you cannot say it's anything new in this industry. Did you not see what happened to Eastern, Pan Am, TWA, Branniff, etc. pilots?

They were all Major Airlines, not 50 seat RJ operators.

I call it the Churn Game, and the airline CEO's have been playing it for a very long time. Delta's Richard Anderson was a Lawyer at CAL, working for Frank Lorenzo back when they took Eastern apart.

When ever one group stands up to Management;

Schwack!

Chopped up and sold off.

So, what's ALPA National's PLAN going forward??

They haven't had a plan to deal with this whipsawing, since deregulation in 1978.

Why not?

How many "Strategic Planing Committee" guys does ALPA National employ? And why? Where is the National SOS? That is the only 'hammer' we have, but there has NEVER been any talk of actually using it.

And don't be surprised when Cabotage raises it's ugly head in the next 10 years...

It occurs in the everywhere, and the fallacy of having a union is laughable. The Union extremists will never learn but hopefully otheres will see the light. Not blaming the unions for the failing just stating they have no power to their claims. History as you mentioned has proven that over an over an over again. Shame, good luck guys I have been there twice in your position. I wish you the very best.

Listen all y'all its a cabotage!

http://emptyv.multimedia.cx/images/beastieboys-sabotage-3.jpg

A little insensitive given the gravity of this thread.

My heart goes out to my Comair family. I have missed you all since I left. I hope Delta's final stab at you clears the turbulent air they have forced us all to ride since 1999. Godspeed.

Godspeed Comair guys. The end of an era. :(

I will cannot say that I am shocked, or surprised...but this is saddening. I wonder what those guys were seeing that thought all these rumors were just tactics? Or who saw nothing but good ahead for Comair? :confused:

I am sorry to hear that people will be losing their jobs and wish them well in their search for new and hopefully better employment.

I agree with the previous poster: a regional job is an intermediate stepping stone to greater opportunity and prosperity at a bigger, more stable, carrier that offers the best pay, benefits, and flying. The best places to be change from year to year....Regionals were never envisioned nor meant to be a long term career.

Unions are never perfect but I view it as a lesser of evils. Who are you going to trust? A group of your democratically elected peers who represent you or do you place your faith in company management?

Scary to see how this industry treats a career regional airline.

First they came for ACA, and I didn't speak out because I didn't work for ACA.

Then they came for AWAC, and I didn't speak out because I didn't work for AWAC.

Then they came for Mesaba, and I didn't speak out because I didn't work for Mesaba.

etc etc etc.

Best wishes to all Comair employees going forward...

PJFLyer has it spot on. I don't wish the job loss and stress on the Comair families but it is what it is. As long as the regionals don't own the flying that they do, they will be subject to things like this from the major that does own the routes and flights. Anyone thinking that a regional airline is a career spot is grossly misguided. Colgan going away. Comair going away. Who's next? Wait and see. It's actually what is needed in this industry. All flying should be done at the majors and ALL pilots should be employed by majors. No more whip sawing!

Scary to see how this industry treats a career regional airline.

I think it just confirmed there is no such thing. Sorry the "careerists" suggested otherwise.

I think we're both saying the same thing. Only I said it more gently. :D

Good luck to you guys. Used you a lot when I was across the ramp at DHL. Hold your head up high, as a group you have a great reputation.

First they came for ACA, and I didn't speak out because I didn't work for ACA.



Beat me to it.

First they came for ACA, and I did nothing because it might benefit me...

Beat me to it.

First they came for ACA, and I did nothing because it might benefit me...

Deal me an ace.

Do y'all expect people to stay around til the last day or just bail now? Give delta one last F U..

My sympathies to those affected by this. This happens in the corporate world where the people you fly for week after week cut you loose as they go off to Aspen/St. Kitts, etc. So many regional CA's are not quick to leave as they will go down in pay,lose seniority,their domicile to a major they feel may be unstable. May those displaced find something better.

Do y'all expect people to stay around til the last day or just bail now? Give delta one last F U..

Quitting = no unemployment check
Furlough = unemployment check

Quitting = no unemployment check
Furlough = unemployment check

How can one be furloughed from a company that cannot call you back?

Correction: pilots will be furloughed up until the end but after Sept 29th, I am sure that status will change

Terminated due to elimination of the employer = unemployment check.

Terminated due to elimination of the employer = unemployment check.

Using every minute of any sick leave you have prior to shut down=unemployment check.

Using every minute of any sick leave you have prior to shut down=unemployment check.

Exactly, and then some...

I was thinking the same thing. They are going to have fun trying to cover what flying is left when every last employee is trying to use up their sick bank before it is too late.

So sorry to hear this! Good luck to all of ya'll!

Sad day for those at COMAIR. It should also be a wake up call to everyone in the regional part of this business. I have a couple of friends there.....they have been in denial for awhile about what was happening around them. I will be there to help and support them.

On the other hand, much is made on this board about mainline taking back flying... reducing regional feed....etc..... if anyone thought all that could happen and something like this would not be the effect of that ... thats pretty difficult to comprehend. If we as a profession wish for regional companies as they now exist to no longer fly for mainline, then more of this HAS to happen going forward.

PJColgan going away. Comair going away. Who's next? Wait and see. It's actually what is needed in this industry. All flying should be done at the majors and ALL pilots should be employed by majors. No more whip sawing!

Who's next? Piedmont. Now, if all the undercutting bottom feeders jump on board too, maybe this industry can start climbing back out of the toilet. Until then, best of luck to those at Comair.

What a waste all that money they spent buying us out in January w the early out to then close doors!!!

Just wanted to tell my friends and former coworkers at Comair how sorry I am to see this day. The slow dismemberment of Comair over the last 10 years has been sad to see. Hopefully everyone will land on their feet.

I was thinking the same thing. They are going to have fun trying to cover what flying is left when every last employee is trying to use up their sick bank before it is too late.

I'm sure they'll be just fine (If by they, you mean Delta).

Sorry to hear this, goodluck guys!

Colgan going away. Comair going away. Who's next? Wait and see. It's actually what is needed in this industry. All flying should be done at the majors and ALL pilots should be employed by majors. No more whip sawing!

This isn't the time or place for this but I think it's a discussion worth having. This is such a pipe dream and fantasy. There is a niche that the majors will NEVER be able to fill profitably. And the major pilots know this. Yet, they use regional guys as pawns just as much as management. Their Contracts are improved partly on the backs of regional pilots. They don't give two $#!? about us, and they pretend they do. "someday you'll be allowed in the club boys!" just don't ask too much now."
Mother Delta has made some horrific mistakes, and this is a shame for the families at Comair. And the pilots at Delta have a right and obligation to their families to protect and grow their work. But don't, for one second, think D pilots give two cents about you.

Best of luck to everyone at Comair. I know several guys there or who have left. All very stand up people and hope the best for all you guys! God speed!

Who's next? Piedmont. Now, if all the undercutting bottom feeders jump on board too, maybe this industry can start climbing back out of the toilet. Until then, best of luck to those at Comair.

Agreed. Wisconsin may not be far behind.

They are going to have fun trying to cover what flying is left when every last employee is trying to use up their sick bank before it is too late.

According to an internal DL memo, Comair provides only 1% of the DCI lift. That can be covered very easily by mainline and the remaining DCI.

This is not to gloat. This is a very sad day indeed. However, this is also the price to be paid for mainline carriers reducing their reliance on outsourced carriers. The overall loss of pilot seats at the DCI level due to the new PWA scope at mainline in somewhere around 1600. This is after accounting for the extra 70 allowed 76 seaters. Many view that TA as a scope sellout, yet make no mistake, it will cost a lot of regional pilots their jobs as the seats transition back to mainline, (unfortunately not all 1600 due to other "efficiencies" in the TA.:mad:)

There will most likely be more company closings and/or merger/accusitions down the road. What we saw at the legacy level back in 2001-2005, we are now seeing at the regional level.

Sad day indeed. :(

This is exactly the way the regional model is supposed to work. Wholly owned simply allowed DL more flexibility in this case...no contracts to break, no early termination fees.

American Eagle pilots take note.............................

This isn't the time or place for this but I think it's a discussion worth having. This is such a pipe dream and fantasy. There is a niche that the majors will NEVER be able to fill profitably. And the major pilots know this. Yet, they use regional guys as pawns just as much as management. Their Contracts are improved partly on the backs of regional pilots. They don't give two $#!? about us, and they pretend they do. "someday you'll be allowed in the club boys!" just don't ask too much now."
Mother Delta has made some horrific mistakes, and this is a shame for the families at Comair. And the pilots at Delta have a right and obligation to their families to protect and grow their work. But don't, for one second, think D pilots give two cents about you.


Hold the phone...:rolleyes:

Do you have ANY idea who was flying ALL of Com Air's (Delta's) routes, long BEFORE COM AIR even existed??

Delta was flying them, with MAINLINE DC-9's and 737-200's and 727's!

Com Air and ASA actually grew, as Delta shrank, and put more and more MAINLINE pilots on furlough, for 3 years starting in 1993 and for 5 years starting in November of 2001.

The Delta Pilots have been paying for YOUR JOBS, by losing OUR JOBS, for many years. Some of our children are flying there today. We don't want to Kill ComAir, we want OUR FLYING returned TO US! I would LOVE for all Com Air pilots (except the RJDC clowns) to be hired at Delta, making mainline wages with mainline benefits.

Do you realize many of the Delta Pilots you blame for your sitution, came from Com Air? Do you really believe we don't give 2 cents? You have to start somewhere and build the hours and gain the experience needed to get a job at a mainline carrier. Many of us Delta pilots wanted you to be added to our list years ago, but JC Lawson wanted Date of Hire on our list, and the RJDC lawsuit didn't help.

If you want to be pizzed off at someone, start with JC and the RJDC. But Delta Management decided to close down Com Air, not the Delta Pilots. We just want OUR flying back, at MAINLINE, where it always belonged, before our MANAGEMENT decided to OUSOURCE IT to the lowest bidder.

Long time lurker, first time poster. Left OH after 7 years in Jan with the last buyout. Sad day for all, first senority number was 1885 in early 2005. Never thought it would end up like this. For all those worried about flight benefits, try to keep in mind that everyone at the GO also is losing their jobs as well. So our flight benefits are the least of their concern. Delta will do what they will do and that is that. We might keep them in some fashion or more likely they are gone. Above all to my friends left there be safe for the next 60 days. Also kudos to the Delta guys for being classy today. As someone earlier mentioned, we all have clowns, but today is not the time to have a debate about them, but rather keep in mind the 1500 people losing their jobs soon. I am done with flying and am going to teach high school math, so I wish all the best to the folks that do choose to stay in flying. I am about to finish off a twelve pack in memory of Comair. Some good days but in the end many more tough days.

With this occurring and the possible impending doom of Pinnacle, the market will be flooded with qualified pilots. Looks like the pilot shortage will be less severe. It will be harder for a lot of us to get hired at the majors. A sad day.

I don't think comair will be the end of it. When the AMR/ US merger occurs, i think those of us at PSA, Piedmont, and Eagle will all be up poop creek as well. This is why it is very important for us to work on flowthrough agreements. Also shows that taking your chance of being a lifer at a regional doesn't pay off.

Hold the phone...:rolleyes:

Do you have ANY idea who was flying ALL of Com Air's (Delta's) routes, long BEFORE COM AIR even existed??

Delta was flying them, with MAINLINE DC-9's and 737-200's and 727's!

Com Air and ASA actually grew, as Delta shrank, and put more and more MAINLINE pilots on furlough, for 3 years starting in 1993 and for 5 years starting in November of 2001.

The Delta Pilots have been paying for YOUR JOBS, by losing OUR JOBS, for many years. Some of our children are flying there today. We don't want to Kill ComAir, we want OUR FLYING returned TO US! I would LOVE for all Com Air pilots (except the RJDC clowns) to be hired at Delta, making mainline wages with mainline benefits.

Do you realize many of the Delta Pilots you blame for your sitution, came from Com Air? Do you really believe we don't give 2 cents? You have to start somewhere and build the hours and gain the experience needed to get a job at a mainline carrier. Many of us Delta pilots wanted you to be added to our list years ago, but JC Lawson wanted Date of Hire on our list, and the RJDC lawsuit didn't help.

If you want to be pizzed off at someone, start with JC and the RJDC. But Delta Management decided to close down Com Air, not the Delta Pilots. We just want OUR flying back, at MAINLINE, where it always belonged, before our MANAGEMENT decided to OUSOURCE IT to the lowest bidder.

Sure...I believe all Delta flying was done by Delta before comair. No surprise. But today, regionals provide a real benefit to the company. They provide cash and flexibility. Management AND mainline pilots use regional pilots as pawns. That's the point.
Regionals have a place in this industry. Newcomers need to remove their blinders and realize lot of other groups have an interest in marginalizing regionals. Management threatens outsourcing and mainline pilots want the growth of customer base RJ's provide but not the threat of outsourcing.
Delta pilots struck a deal which will f<#€ thousands of guys. OH is the latest. We all want to move on. Fine. But be intellectually honest and call it for what it is.

I would like to simply say thank you, to the pilots of Comair past and present for standing up in 2001 and continuing to do so until the end. Thanks you guys are a real stand up group of pilots...

Sure...I believe all Delta flying was done by Delta before comair. No surprise. But today, regionals provide a real benefit to the company. They provide cash and flexibility. Management AND mainline pilots use regional pilots as pawns. That's the point.
Regionals have a place in this industry. Newcomers need to remove their blinders and realize lot of other groups have an interest in marginalizing regionals. Management threatens outsourcing and mainline pilots want the growth of customer base RJ's provide but not the threat of outsourcing.
Delta pilots struck a deal which will f<#€ thousands of guys. OH is the latest. We all want to move on. Fine. But be intellectually honest and call it for what it is.

The long term benefit of the deal that DL pilots struck (if it works as the company and ALPA pinky swore) will be thousands more mainline career jobs rather than shovelling in the sewers at the regionals for far too long.

Timbo,

If you mainline types would stop voting away scope, Comair wouldn't be in this situation. You complain how Comair and asa stole your jobs but you guys sold out the scope.

The long term benefit of the deal that DL pilots struck (if it works as the company and ALPA pinky swore) will be thousands more mainline career jobs rather than shovelling in the sewers at the regionals for far too long.

Fingers crossed.....

Timbo,

If you mainline types would stop voting away scope, Comair wouldn't be in this situation. You complain how Comair and asa stole your jobs but you guys sold out the scope.

No, if we stopped voting away mainline scope, Comair wouldn't EXIST in the first place! That is the POINT! It was NEVER their flying!

Just to be clear, starting with our 1996 contract, the first one we had membership ratification for, I have voted NO on every T/A that came down the pike to the DL pilot group, except this last one.

Why?

Because except for this last one, all the others allowed more outsoucing of OUR small jet flying.

This last one brings OUR flying back to Delta Mainline, in the form of 88 more jets, and THAT is YOUR ONLY HOPE of ever getting a job at mailine Delta.

The Delta Pilots are not your enemy. Pick up (and read it!) a copy of Flying the Line, vol. 2.

What is happening now, is simply history repeating itself. Most of you RJ guys weren't around when it happened the first time, in 1983-1991, but whipsawing is nothing new in this industry. Before RJ's came along, it was being done to the mainline.

Remember Frank Lorenzo??

Google the CAL strike of 1983, and the UAL strike of 1985, and the Eastern Airlines strike of 1989. Airline CEO's found a loophole in our contracts, there were no scope limits for 'regional carriers' because at that time (1980's) the regionals were flying smaller turbo-props and piston twins, ie. Piper Navajos and F27's. The Major pilot groups didn't see anything to fear there....

Then along came the Canadair Challenger, extra large. There was nothing in the scope clauses to prevent it, and management saw an opportunity to outsouce mainline flying, at 'regional pay'.

I was against it, many of us were, yet there was nothing in our contract to stop it and ALPA National allowed it, just like they allowed the B scale, an American Airlines (non-ALPA) invention, to permeate every ALPA contract. Next thing I know, I'm displaced off my Captain seat back to F/O, Delta is furlouging for the first time in the history of Delta Air Lines (1993), and Com Air is hiring and flying RJ's, bought and paid for by... DELTA AIR LINES.

Brilliant! If you were an Airline CEO.

If you were a furloughed mainline pilot, not so much.

So, now we are (Finally!) taking some (not all) of our flying back.

You got a problem with that?

Why?

Did you want to stay at Com Air making minimum wage forever? :rolleyes:

Delta pilots struck a deal which will f<#€ thousands of guys. OH is the latest. We all want to move on. Fine. But be intellectually honest and call it for what it is.

If we're being honest, lets look at the timeline. Comair has been beaten down again and again for the last 7 years. The killing blow was probably months in the making, and minimally (at best) hinged on the DALPA TA vote four weeks ago.

Anderson is laughing himself to sleep tonight knowing that regional and mainline ALPA guys are taking swings at each other over this.

But I appreciate the condolences guys.

Sure...I believe all Delta flying was done by Delta before comair. No surprise. But today, regionals provide a real benefit to the company. They provide cash and flexibility. Management AND mainline pilots use regional pilots as pawns. That's the point.
Regionals have a place in this industry. Newcomers need to remove their blinders and realize lot of other groups have an interest in marginalizing regionals. Management threatens outsourcing and mainline pilots want the growth of customer base RJ's provide but not the threat of outsourcing.
Delta pilots struck a deal which will f<#€ thousands of guys. OH is the latest. We all want to move on. Fine. But be intellectually honest and call it for what it is.


Delta pilots don't owe you anything! As a 10 year regional guy ( now at DAL, and I voted yes), I have never understood why any pilot at any regional thinks they are owed anything. You provide a contract service for a fee. Bottom line, DAL pilots took back many RJ jobs, (not enough) if you see that as a huge F you, maybe you should take a step back and look at the big picture!

I mean seriously, you want us to give away even more RJ jobs so you can stay at whatever job you have now???:mad:

BTW I do not like it that good employees and pilots are being terminated. Never a good thing and never easy for families and careers. Justamushroom is way off base in my opinion and seems to be falling into the world is not fair to me BS.

Timbo is right here guys. I'm very sorry so many of you will be out of work, but it's happening at a pivotal time in the industry. I've written pages of papers based on this very issue (airlines post-deregulation and the introduction of the RJ as a feeder) in my economics class (masters).

The industry is changing, for the better, just keep the faith and watch the opportunities that present themselves in the next five years. Everything is cyclical, and your boat is coming in. Delta just made it easier for a lot of you because you are free to pick and choose now. I know this probably doesn't make the news any easier, but it will work out. It always does.

I'm a 21 year Regional guy, and I make pretty good money at this level. Gotta admit, though, that FIIGMO has a point. Regional feed is outsourced flying on behalf of the mainline. If mainline management decides to bring back all flying in house and we all lose our jobs tomorrow, that's the way it goes.

There's never any guarantee in this business. Ever. Especially when your company's business model depends on feeding another airline.

Now, there do seem to be some mainline pilots who take a very cavalier attitude toward those who will be on the street. So, should I give a rat's ass about any other mainline pilot's job? No.

Delta pilots don't owe you anything! As a 10 year regional guy ( now at DAL, and I voted yes), I have never understood why any pilot at any regional thinks they are owed anything. You provide a contract service for a fee. Bottom line, DAL pilots took back many RJ jobs, (not enough) if you see that as a huge F you, maybe you should take a step back and look at the big picture!

I mean seriously, you want us to give away even more RJ jobs so you can stay at whatever job you have now???:mad:

BTW I do not like it that good employees and pilots are being terminated. Never a good thing and never easy for families and careers. Justamushroom is way off base in my opinion and seems to be falling into the world is not fair to me BS.

I do see that as a huge F you. You yourself said that you worked at a regional for 10 years. Now it seems like you and many others at Delta are forgetting your roots. The regional feed you hate, helped get you to where you are today. I agree that it got out of control, and that it needs to shift back towards mainline, but don't you think that a more gradual approach we be more appropriate? Good people are being affected at a bad time in aviation. Your CEO, RA, is a cold hearted calculating SOB that only sees dollar signs, and that attitude seems to be spreading throughout the Delta pilot group. The Delta pilot's reputation of arrogance seems to have caught up with you also.

As we often find out when we meet somebody else from a different pilot group we are all more the same than we are different. Wouldn't wish this on anyone. Thanks to all the professionals over there that gave me a ride to work just because I do the same thing that they do or shared a stupidly over priced coffee in the wee hours of the morning at some random outstation. I have met more good folks than bad in this industry and have been the reciepient of more random acts of kindness than any banker or school teacher can ever hope for. One day maybe EVERYONE will get the stones to just set the brakes for all of our own good.

My overall concern is how can a union representing 2 companies doing the same job can help one get a new contract and yet let the other one be dismantled. Quite a conflict of interest. I would love a dues refund for the last 6 years as well as the extra $240 for the merger contigency fund. The remaining ALPA regionals would be smart to get out of ALPA completely if they want to survive.

I do not feel entitled to a Delta job btw. Never did. I have my 3 reference letters in place and I hope to get to interview just like the next guy. I hopefully have a job lined up that will wash some of the Comair stench off my resume.

Today was finally some closure. They have kept us in the dark for years. Glad it's over with finally! 6 years of abuse finally stops!

I do see that as a huge F you. You yourself said that you worked at a regional for 10 years. Now it seems like you and many others at Delta are forgetting your roots. The regional feed you hate, helped get you to where you are today. I agree that it got out of control, and that it needs to shift back towards mainline, but don't you think that a more gradual approach we be more appropriate? Good people are being affected at a bad time in aviation. Your CEO, RA, is a cold hearted calculating SOB that only sees dollar signs, and that attitude seems to be spreading throughout the Delta pilot group. The Delta pilot's reputation of arrogance seems to have caught up with you also.

The DL TA is about as gradual as it can get.... too gradual, really.

The DL TA is about as gradual as it can get.... too gradual, really.

It really needs a lot less "gradual" and a lot more "Release the Kraken"

On a serious note, anyone here know any of the reps to ask a serious question about the merger assessment fund? Now that a lot of people are going to be out of a job I'm sure they could use the money. I just want it back because it was such a waste of money in the first place.

My overall concern is how can a union representing 2 companies doing the same job can help one get a new contract and yet let the other one be dismantled. Quite a conflict of interest. I would love a dues refund for the last 6 years as well as the extra $240 for the merger contigency fund. The remaining ALPA regionals would be smart to get out of ALPA completely if they want to survive.

I do not feel entitled to a Delta job btw. Never did. I have my 3 reference letters in place and I hope to get to interview just like the next guy. I hopefully have a job lined up that will wash some of the Comair stench off my resume.

Today was finally some closure. They have kept us in the dark for years. Glad it's over with finally! 6 years of abuse finally stops!

The irony is that many of us at mainline think that ALPA bends over backwards for the regionals and that represents a conflict of interest in handicapping us....


Best of luck to those at Comair in their future endeavors- it's been a rough ride the past, well, decade.

The irony is that many of us at mainline think that ALPA bends over backwards for the regionals and that represents a conflict of interest in handicapping us....


Best of luck to those at Comair in their future endeavors- it's been a rough ride the past, well, decade.

I agree Delta ALPA had a hand in todays events.. As if they did'nt know that passing that TA would have a direct effect on Comair...

I agree Delta ALPA had a hand in todays events.. As if they did'nt know that passing that TA would have a direct effect on Comair...

We all knew it was just a matter of time anyways...

I imagine the 35% DCI ALPA hiring clause had something to do with that.

On a serious note, anyone here know any of the reps to ask a serious question about the merger assessment fund? Now that a lot of people are going to be out of a job I'm sure they could use the money. I just want it back because it was such a waste of money in the first place.

I have it on good authority that MOST of the merger fund will be going back to everyone that paid it. Stay tuned.

The irony is that many of us at mainline think that ALPA bends over backwards for the regionals and that represents a conflict of interest in handicapping us....


Best of luck to those at Comair in their future endeavors- it's been a rough ride the past, well, decade.

I agree with your point. ALPA cannot serve 2 master's but yet they are more then willing to take our dues money. That is my point. Personally the regionals suck and I hope to never work for one again.

The days of go to a regional, upgrade, then go to a major are over. ALPA is representing the general contractor and also the subcontractor. How does that work?

I will say ALPA does alot for safety and insurance type stuff everything else not so much. Got a bad taste if unions right now and hopefully I will land a job I am interviewing for with a non-union company.

I have it on good authority that MOST of the merger fund will be going back to everyone that paid it. Stay tuned.

Why do you say most? And please keep those of us who aren't currently there updated. Thanks.

We all knew it was just a matter of time anyways...

I imagine the 35% DCI ALPA hiring clause had something to do with that.

Yes. But the Comair pilots will never see any of that 35% ALPA carrot..

Anderson's choices:

Skywest - Provides feed for everyone, won't play ball with Delta and park 50s. MRJs on order. Already owns half of DCI flying. Possibly willing to go solo and be next LCC.

ASA - Sold to Skywest, and subject to the same uncertainties (see above). Too many eggs in one basket.

Pinnacle - in BK, "operating costs too high", fleets of turboprops to be parked at a loss. Hangers full of 50 seaters. Training cost nightmare.

Mesaba - Sold to Pinnacle, too many eggs in that basket.

Chautauqua - Only flying 50s (albiet not many of them). Scope-breaking C-series on order. Channels Delta money into Delta competition (wholly-owned Frontier). Like Skywest, flies for everybody. Delta can't push egomaniac CEO around.

Shuttle - same as CHQ, right down to the carve-out. Just no 50s.

GoJetsss - unproven product, trembles at thought of 45-minute LGA turns. Staffing concerns. MRJs (possibly scope-breaking) on order.

Compass - Sold to GoJetssss, not covered by Republic carve-out if TSH gets MRJs.

Freedom - Already run into the dirt.

Big Sky - Already run into the dirt.

ACA - Already run into the dirt, but stuck Delta with crummy aircraft leases.

The obvious choice is to shut down Comair... The only one Delta has complete control over, and the only one Delta has maneuvered exactly where they want them.

Delta math is stupid.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/24074206.jpg

Wow. The more I see DAL opinions on here instead of "I feel your pain, etc..." the more it actually bothers me. Plz go away and dont offer your thoughts.

Damn, sorry for the Comair guys.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/24074206.jpg

I'd apply to GoJetsss, but then I wouldn't be able to get ALPA magazine every month.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/24074206.jpg

lolwut,
Actually you hit the nail on the head. Guess the "unpublished" min's at Gojets just became 20,000 hrs TT with 18,000 TPIC.

I agree Delta ALPA had a hand in todays events.. As if they did'nt know that passing that TA would have a direct effect on Comair...

I consider myself pretty well informed and I did not know ....

Delta management was very clear they were going to reduce 50 seat flying either with, or without, the Delta pilots. The difference the Delta pilots made was allowing MORE next generation 76 seat jets, which were not allowed in the Joint Pilot Working Agreement. Facilitating the "trade" would expedite a swap into more economically viable equipment. Back channel (unconfirmed) rumor was that the DAL MEC had informally counselled Comair's MEC to bid for the new flying to come.

It appears plan A was to renegotiate with SkyWest. SkyWest refused.

Look; Comair is a Delta asset. No one is pleased to see a part of our Company mismanaged into liquidation. No one is happy to see our management (from Northwest) take this action. There is no reason to believe they view us any differently. It is just that our circumstance is different today.

In case you have not been following our news, our SkyTeam "partners" are eating us alive just as the pantheon of DCI carriers took work you considered to be "yours." Lesson to all of us, our jobs are only as secure as the scope we negotiate.

First, I want to offer my sympathy to all the employees of Comair. Keep your heads high!

While I'm here I'll throw in my 2 cents as well :sigh:

I was a Comair pilot from 96-07 before I finally realized there was no career there. Of course, that was only my opinion.

I think anyone who feels the Delta TA shut down Comair hasn't been watching the same slow motion train wreck that I have been since before I left.

I also believe that anything that creates mainline jobs is good for the pilot groups as a whole.

I'm proud of my Comair heritage and don't wish unemployment on anyone. Comair has always had an outstanding group of pilots, fa's, mechanics, gate agents, dispatchers, and everyone else. Hold you heads high, go get some interviews and don't bash them when they ask about your Comair experience.

I've posted it before but if anyone would like more info on jobs overseas you guys and girls know where to find me.

Good luck and God speed!

I consider myself pretty well informed and I did not know ....

Delta management was very clear they were going to reduce 50 seat flying either with, or without, the Delta pilots. The difference the Delta pilots made was allowing MORE next generation 76 seat jets, which were not allowed in the Joint Pilot Working Agreement. Facilitating the "trade" would expedite a swap into more economically viable equipment. Back channel (unconfirmed) rumor was that the DAL MEC had informally counselled Comair's MEC to bid for the new flying to come.

It appears plan A was to renegotiate with SkyWest. SkyWest refused.

Look; Comair is a Delta asset. No one is pleased to see a part of our Company mismanaged into liquidation. No one is happy to see our management (from Northwest) take this action. There is no reason to believe they view us any differently. It is just that our circumstance is different today.

In case you have not been following our news, our SkyTeam "partners" are eating us alive just as the pantheon of DCI carriers took work you considered to be "yours." Lesson to all of us, our jobs are only as secure as the scope we negotiate.

Another long time lurker here and posting my first message. I have to say, Bucking Bar, I have ejoyed your posts and the knowledge that you bring. I can't blame the OH pilots for voicing some anger at mainline pilots and can understand how they must feel. This last post definitely puts it into perspective though.

One thing I can't figure out is how DAL expects to "save" money. Comair flies 1% of DAL routes. How could any sub-business with that low of a percentage inflict any damage to a multi-billion dollar industry? And that's even if you *buy* their argument that the RJs cost them money? (I still have not seen definitive figures that show conclusively that OH costs them money. Just because mgmt says so, doesn't make it so.)

Getting back to my point of "saving" money; closing Comair solves their problem of "high" labor costs. So how is adding planes to mainline, along with the higher wage level that comes with it, going to "save" DAL money? Yeah, maybe in the short run since 1600 people are now out of a job, but in the long-run, no way.

Which leads me to my 2nd point. DAL only is concerned with the here and now. Tomorrow is another day, another deal to be made, another promise to be broken. Previous posters have stated it more eloquently than I, do not beleive for one second that you are safe, no matter if you are DCI or DAL. In big business, tomorrow is a whole new day.

Another long time lurker here and posting my first message. I have to say, Bucking Bar, I have ejoyed your posts and the knowledge that you bring. I can't blame the OH pilots for voicing some anger at mainline pilots and can understand how they must feel. This last post definitely puts it into perspective though.

One thing I can't figure out is how DAL expects to "save" money. Comair flies 1% of DAL routes. How could any sub-business with that low of a percentage inflict any damage to a multi-billion dollar industry? And that's even if you *buy* their argument that the RJs cost them money? (I still have not seen definitive figures that show conclusively that OH costs them money. Just because mgmt says so, doesn't make it so.)

Getting back to my point of "saving" money; closing Comair solves their problem of "high" labor costs. So how is adding planes to mainline, along with the higher wage level that comes with it, going to "save" DAL money? Yeah, maybe in the short run since 1600 people are now out of a job, but in the long-run, no way.

Which leads me to my 2nd point. DAL only is concerned with the here and now. Tomorrow is another day, another deal to be made, another promise to be broken. Previous posters have stated it more eloquently than I, do not beleive for one second that you are safe, no matter if you are DCI or DAL. In big business, tomorrow is a whole new day.

As to your bolded and so on... OH is yet another redundantly redundant management team which "supports" a rather operation now. Getting that off the books and throwing their jumbo RJs at the other carriers for a trade to get rid of their 50's and more favorable rates on their jumbos is where the big savings is coming from.

- 80 (a no voter on the DL TA)

Speaking of sending the jets elsewhere- how long until a suit for the pilots to follow them?

If your Dal why not wait a few months and then start up a regional flying 76 seaters under the brand of compass 2. Heck even promise some flow through. Now labor all reset to year 1 pay. Voila money saved!

Wow. The more I see DAL opinions on here instead of "I feel your pain, etc..." the more it actually bothers me. Plz go away and dont offer your thoughts.

I agree. Comair bashing at its' best.

Just watched it on the news. My condolences to all the employees at Comair.

For those that are still at various regionals, get your time and get out. An empty platitude. There are guys out there who have been in this career 15 years that have never made out of the right seat, or a regional for that matter, just by the cyclical nature of this industry and the seniority system. Makes it tough to "get out" when you can't get any left-seat time. Mainline is creating their own problem of sorts though, with consolidation at the regional level: it reminds EVERYONE that regionals aren't companies one can spend their career at. Mainline can't hire too many all at once now, or they might just end up crippling the feed they rely so heavily on.

An empty platitude. There are guys out there who have been in this career 15 years that have never made out of the right seat, or a regional for that matter, just by the cyclical nature of this industry and the seniority system. Makes it tough to "get out" when you can't get any left-seat time. Mainline is creating their own problem of sorts though, with consolidation at the regional level: it reminds EVERYONE that regionals aren't companies one can spend their career at. Mainline can't hire too many all at once now, or they might just end up crippling the feed they rely so heavily on.

If you've been at a regional....any regional for 15 years you've had the chance to upgrade and move on.

An empty platitude. There are guys out there who have been in this career 15 years that have never made out of the right seat, or a regional for that matter, ... it reminds EVERYONE that regionals aren't companies one can spend their career at. Mainline can't hire too many all at once now, or they might just end up crippling the feed they rely so heavily on.
Some "regionals" have been terrific careers. Comair had a heck of run in its day. Some mainline carriers have been terrible. Management calls the shots. We are labor.

Merger and acquisition activity can change everything on a dime. Mainline carriers are certainly not done merging.

What makes a person a "winner" or "loser" is their attitude.

Enter Content

To all my fellow Comair employees...best of luck out there! Godspeed and may you ALL find success in your future employment!

I remember back when I was in college and threw bags, working Comair flights they were the gold standard of regional airlines and the only place I wanted to go to begin my career. No amount of beating on the their door resulted in them opening it for me so I guess I dodged a bullet in that respect.

Its a very sad reminder of how this business works. They ran a very top notch operation out of CVG and basically anywhere else they flew. The very thing that
made them consistently exceptional at that; experience is what ultimately led to their demise. I wish you all the best and that you land smoothly on your feet wherever you go.

This isn't the time or place for this but I think it's a discussion worth having. This is such a pipe dream and fantasy. There is a niche that the majors will NEVER be able to fill profitably. And the major pilots know this. Yet, they use regional guys as pawns just as much as management. Their Contracts are improved partly on the backs of regional pilots. They don't give two $#!? about us, and they pretend they do. "someday you'll be allowed in the club boys!" just don't ask too much now."
Mother Delta has made some horrific mistakes, and this is a shame for the families at Comair. And the pilots at Delta have a right and obligation to their families to protect and grow their work. But don't, for one second, think D pilots give two cents about you.

Did Comair pilots give two cents about the over 1,000 Delta pilots that were furloughed while all than mainline flying got shifted to Comair and ASA? Those were pretty good years for Comair - much hiring, upgades, regional leading pay. And don't forget, Comair's MEC convinced management not to hire any fuloughed DL pilots.

But, like you said - Comair pilots had a right and obligation to their families and to protect and grow their work so nobody really expected them to care about mainline Delta guys who were out of work. Did I get that right?

Did Comair pilots give two cents about the over 1,000 Delta pilots that were furloughed while all than mainline flying got shifted to Comair and ASA? Those were pretty good years for Comair - much hiring, upgades, regional leading pay. And don't forget, Comair's MEC convinced management not to hire any fuloughed DL pilots.

But, like you said - Comair pilots had a right and obligation to their families and to protect and grow their work so nobody really expected them to care about mainline Delta guys who were out of work. Did I get that right?

I can't speak for all of us, but yes, some of us cared a lot. Sorry if you were caught up in that, close friends of mine were as well. Not that it matters now, but the Comair MEC, however misguided its actions, didn't convince management of anything.

Management was always free to do what it wanted no matter what the MEC wanted, and frequently did.

DAL management furloughed the DAL pilots. Comair management chose not to alter its policy. The Comair MEC chose not to support it as well, but had no power to back it up.

Delta has had it out for Comair since the strike in 2001. I'm not surprised.

I see several guys playing the "Mainline's taking it back" card. I'd agree.....IF that turns out to be true. Sadly, I think it's more likely GoJets will see an increase in flying rather than seeing some MD-88s and 717s taking some of those routes....or even taking some of the 70-76 routes and putting those planes on former 50 seat routes.

More likely those same 70 seat jets that Comair losing will be in GoJet paint by the end of the year.

More likely those same 70 seat jets that Comair losing will be in GoJet paint by the end of the year.


No paint change. Just change the "operated by" sticker. So easy!!

Oh well, except for the 1600 people losing their jobs on Sept 29.

Wait. That was kind of easy (for Delta) too!!

And don't forget, Comair's MEC convinced management not to hire any fuloughed DL pilots...

...Did I get that right?

No, you did not get that right.

That's like saying the Delta pilots convinced Anderson to get 70 more large RJs.

It's a sad time for those who will be losing their jobs. For a good period of time, Comair was considered by some to be the gold standard in regional flying. Comair will now, sadly, serve as a cautionary tale about the industry.

In some sense, I'm not surprised by Delta's move. With newer, more efficient engines being built and America's desire for cost over service, the mainlines have probably determined flying two flights on 150 seat jets is far better than paying someone to fly 50 seat jets five or six times a day.

Don't discount how important it will be for the new behemoth mainlines to keep their extremely large pilot groups happy. Keeping the labor peace with a 12,000 man workforce can't be overstated. A strike or slowdown would harshly affect a company that control 20% of all commercial flights in the US.

Some, possibly many will disgree with me, but I doubt we'll see many regional carriers left in five years. I look for the mainlines to reclaim their routes and fly more efficient, larger jets with their own pilots staffing them. Certainly, a few might survive, but likely as stand alone carriers in the mold of Virgen America or Spirit. That's just my view though.

An empty platitude. There are guys out there who have been in this career 15 years that have never made out of the right seat, or a regional for that matter, just by the cyclical nature of this industry and the seniority system. Makes it tough to "get out" when you can't get any left-seat time. Mainline is creating their own problem of sorts though, with consolidation at the regional level: it reminds EVERYONE that regionals aren't companies one can spend their career at. Mainline can't hire too many all at once now, or they might just end up crippling the feed they rely so heavily on.
Even in this economy, you don't necessarily need TPIC time or internal connections to get hired at a LCC/major. It's about having the motivation and the aptitude to leave. I can't count how many pilots I flew with that didn't bother updating their logbooks, some of them for over 6 months! I'm not just talking about Captains, but FOs too. How can you have an updated resume and apply online if you don't even know your flight times? I will say the CAs and FOs I knew at regionals that have moved on to Spirit, VA, JetBlue, US Air, Fedex, were all driven to leave and constantly kept their stuff up to date and applied regularly.

Comair will now, sadly, serve as a cautionary tale about the industry.
What tale is that? That you cannot retire at a regional that constantly gets its work revenue from a mainline partner in flying contracts that can be cut/minimized/eliminated pretty much at the whim of said mainline carrier? That's not a cautionary tale, that's common sense.

Even in this economy, you don't necessarily need TPIC time or internal connections to get hired at a LCC/major. It's about having the motivation and the aptitude to leave. I can't count how many pilots I flew with that didn't bother updating their logbooks, some of them for over 6 months! I'm not just talking about Captains, but FOs too. How can you have an updated resume and apply online if you don't even know your flight times? I will say the CAs and FOs I knew at regionals that have moved on to Spirit, VA, JetBlue, US Air, Fedex, were all driven to leave and constantly kept their stuff up to date and applied regularly.

6 months is nothing, I fly with guys who have gone 6 years without updating their logs.

What tale is that? That you cannot retire at a regional that constantly gets its work revenue from a mainline partner in flying contracts that can be cut/minimized/eliminated pretty much at the whim of said mainline carrier? That's not a cautionary tale, that's common sense.

I understand what you are saying but Comair was definetly a little different in my opinion. Comair was not a delta "partner", they were a wholly owned delta carrier.

Some, possibly many will disgree with me, but I doubt we'll see many regional carriers left in five years.

I think we'll be down to four regionals:

SkywestASAExpressjetWisconsinPSAHorizon

RepublicChatakwaShuttleLynxFrontier

TransGoJetssssssCompassLakesStatesCommutair

PinnacoladaMesaSilver

Even in this economy, you don't necessarily need TPIC time or internal connections to get hired at a LCC/major. It's about having the motivation and the aptitude to leave. I can't count how many pilots I flew with that didn't bother updating their logbooks, some of them for over 6 months! I'm not just talking about Captains, but FOs too. How can you have an updated resume and apply online if you don't even know your flight times? I will say the CAs and FOs I knew at regionals that have moved on to Spirit, VA, JetBlue, US Air, Fedex, were all driven to leave and constantly kept their stuff up to date and applied regularly.

Ok, how up to date are your logs nowadays?

I see several guys playing the "Mainline's taking it back" card. I'd agree.....IF that turns out to be true. Sadly, I think it's more likely GoJets will see an increase in flying rather than seeing some MD-88s and 717s taking some of those routes....or even taking some of the 70-76 routes and putting those planes on former 50 seat routes.

More likely those same 70 seat jets that Comair losing will be in GoJet paint by the end of the year.

Sadly, I think u might be right.

What tale is that? That you cannot retire at a regional that constantly gets its work revenue from a mainline partner in flying contracts that can be cut/minimized/eliminated pretty much at the whim of said mainline carrier? That's not a cautionary tale, that's common sense.

Nope. The same thing WE heard during contract negotiations from our own union sometimes. "Don't ask for too much. You don't want to wind up like Comair."

Sadly, we just asked for what carriers like ASA and XJT already had, and thanks to mismanglement, we're in bankruptcy. Now, when we come out reduced to a shell of what our contract was coming in (after being effective for just over a year), the other regionals will have a hard time just maintaining what the have. Then it turns into "Don't ask for too much. You don't want to be like Comair and Pinnacle." Then the slide continues.

Has nothing to do with retiring at a regional and everything to do with having liveable work rules and pay.

No, you did not get that right.

That's like saying the Delta pilots convinced Anderson to get 70 more large RJs.


Oh really Boomer? I worked at Delta then and just missed being furloughed. DALPA sent out communication to the membership that CMR flight operations would consider interviewing furloughed DL pilots but CMRs MEC voiced their concern that furloughed DL pilots could possibly bring potential conflict to the cockpit and were against hiring DL guys for "safety" reasons. This did happen and is not at all like your large RJ analogy above.

I know the rank and file at Comair did not share this sentiment, but like someone else has mentioned, their MEC at the time had another agenda.

Oh really Boomer? I worked at Delta then and just missed being furloughed. DALPA sent out communication to the membership that CMR flight operations would consider interviewing furloughed DL pilots but CMRs MEC voiced their concern that furloughed DL pilots could possibly bring potential conflict to the cockpit and were against hiring DL guys for "safety" reasons. This did happen and is not at all like your large RJ analogy above.

I know the rank and file at Comair did not share this sentiment, but like someone else has mentioned, their MEC at the time had another agenda.
Grumman,

JC Lawson's agenda was preventing what was announced on Friday. Without scope, JC Lawson knew Comair's days were numbered. As a representative of Comair's pilots he wanted (needed) the Delta MEC's help. He tried to use your furlough as leverage and that was unquestionably wrong.

But, the Delta MEC could (and should) have taken your concerns to Delta management. The Delta MEC had done so in the past to provide concurrent seniority for bid restricted second officers so they could fly at ASA until they met Delta mins. The Delta MEC had the opportunity to negotiate with Comair's managers, but instead decided to capitalize on JC Lawson's impolitic actions.

BB

One has to first remember that ALPA is NOT a union...it's an "association" of individual unions that never adapted to the post deregulation world. Everyone continued to operate under the "I have mine, pull up the ladder" mindset that was focused on personal greed and not true trade unionism, where you truly support your fellow members and in doing so, gain strength and leverage in the industry.

Just ask any EAL pilot who got hired by DAL when DAL took all those EAL jets and gates. You won't find any because DAL's MEC fought against implementing the ALPA merger and fragmentation policy. Ask them about the help they extended to their regional partner pilots for preferential interviews or hiring over the years. Nope, nothing there.

But ask them if the Comair MEC screwed them. You'll get a different story. It's OK for them to screw over others, but they should be bowed down to.

Wait!! It was a different time and a different MEC!!

OK, then let's see what THIS Delta MEC is made of. Let's see them stand up, put the past behind them and go to management and DEMAND that the Comair pilots be given first right of hire.

Don't hold your breath. They're too busy pulling up the ladder.

BTW...history will show that the only MEC and pilot group that had the integrity to go to management and insist on first right of interview and hire should go to EAL pilots?

The UAL MEC under Rick Dubinsky. Several hundred were hired. And they didn't take ONE Eastern airplane.

Oh really Boomer? I worked at Delta then and just missed being furloughed. DALPA sent out communication to the membership that CMR flight operations would consider interviewing furloughed DL pilots but CMRs MEC voiced their concern that furloughed DL pilots could possibly bring potential conflict to the cockpit and were against hiring DL guys for "safety" reasons. This did happen and is not at all like your large RJ analogy above.

I know the rank and file at Comair did not share this sentiment, but like someone else has mentioned, their MEC at the time had another agenda.


Boomer,

First off - Good luck hope you get on with a major soon. Future retirement numbers at the majors look good.

Unfortunately, what Grumman says is correct. I was furloughed by DAL while Comair and ASA were hiring hundreds in their huge post 9-11 expansion. I remember reading the above mentioned letter and a few others in which basically the COMAIR MEC was attempting to extract leverage out of DAL furloughees. ASA meanwhile took the high road and did what it could to help the DAL guys. Perhaps this is all Karma playing out.

Taking hostages and trying to extract leverage from other Pilots misfortune was wrong then, and it is wrong now. We should interview COMAIR guys and hire or not them as individuals.

Scoop

Ok, how up to date are your logs nowadays?
Endof every trip! Even at my A320 LCC carrier, I routinely update at the end of every trip. It's a force of habit, and an important one. Keeping updated and organized is important, just in case my (or your) employer goes away like Comair. I'd update religiously even if I was at Delta.

What tale is that? That you cannot retire at a regional that constantly gets its work revenue from a mainline partner in flying contracts that can be cut/minimized/eliminated pretty much at the whim of said mainline carrier? That's not a cautionary tale, that's common sense.

The cautionary is that even a regional long considered to be the most respected can just disappear.

Grumman,

JC Lawson's agenda was preventing what was announced on Friday. Without scope, JC Lawson knew Comair's days were numbered. As a representative of Comair's pilots he wanted (needed) the Delta MEC's help. He tried to use your furlough as leverage and that was unquestionably wrong.

But, the Delta MEC could (and should) have taken your concerns to Delta management. The Delta MEC had done so in the past to provide concurrent seniority for bid restricted second officers so they could fly at ASA until they met Delta mins. The Delta MEC had the opportunity to negotiate with Comair's managers, but instead decided to capitalize on JC Lawson's impolitic actions.

BB

BB,

Please read Scoop's response. This was a different issue than the RJDC lawsuit.

I understand what you are saying but Comair was definetly a little different in my opinion. Comair was not a delta "partner", they were a wholly owned delta carrier.

They were different in that they were wholly owned, but they were, for many years, considered a top place to work. Despite that, they're about to be shut down. It can happen to any airline at any time if the mainline or mainlines move against the regional, wholly owned or not.

One other thing to consider about the depressing news out of Comair. When you couple Comair's demise with the major downsizing at Pinnacle/Colgan and the 1500/ATP rule, you've got to wonder from where the new pilots will come? Why would anyone want to get into an industry that's in upheaval and in the process of significantly upping the work requirments?

One other thing to consider about the depressing news out of Comair. When you couple Comair's demise with the major downsizing at Pinnacle/Colgan and the 1500/ATP rule, you've got to wonder from where the new pilots will come? Why would anyone want to get into an industry that's in upheaval and in the process of significantly upping the work requirments?

Isn't this leading to a significant decrease in needed pilots at the regionals?

Take the pilots leaving and subtract away the pilots entering. If this number is positive, shrink the regionals appropriately to keep them staffed.

Sounds like a solution to the pilot shortage at the regional level. Right now, with Comair shutting down and Pinnacle shrinking, there is a huge supply of well qualified regional airline pilots who need jobs.

The cautionary is that even a regional long considered to be the most respected can just disappear.

What's the definition of a "well-respected" regional? They are all flying outsourced major airline routes. When Delta furloughed post 9/11, Comair and ASA grew a lot. What's the respect in that? Comairs MEC held Delta furloughs hostage. What's the respect in that? And two fatal hull losses in a 10 yr timeframe from 1997 to 2006. I don't see how Comair is any more respectable then other regional carriers.

What's the definition of a "well-respected" regional? They are all flying outsourced major airline routes. When Delta furloughed post 9/11, Comair and ASA grew a lot. What's the respect in that? Comairs MEC held Delta furloughs hostage. What's the respect in that? And two fatal hull losses in a 10 yr timeframe from 1997 to 2006. I don't see how Comair is any more respectable then other regional carriers.

Agreed. They may think they're the most respected from the inside looking out, but from the outside looking in, I can say they're not respected at all.

Many Comair pilots have always walked around with this "We're practically mainline, just flying RJs" attitude and looked down upon their companions at other regionals.

They're no better than any other, except for the fact that every pilot left there has made a bad career decision somewhere along the way... its why they're still there after so long. A regional is a place where jobs are outsourced to until the next bidding cycle. It isn't a career and its foolish to think otherwise, no matter how good things are at the current moment.

ok guys enough with the judge of the universe stuff, people are losing their jobs, may better days come quickly for them.RJ guys sitting in judgement of other RJ guys,lovely.

One has to first remember that ALPA is NOT a union...it's an "association" of individual unions that never adapted to the post deregulation world. Everyone continued to operate under the "I have mine, pull up the ladder" mindset that was focused on personal greed and not true trade unionism, where you truly support your fellow members and in doing so, gain strength and leverage in the industry.

Just ask any EAL pilot who got hired by DAL when DAL took all those EAL jets and gates. You won't find any because DAL's MEC fought against implementing the ALPA merger and fragmentation policy. Ask them about the help they extended to their regional partner pilots for preferential interviews or hiring over the years. Nope, nothing there.

But ask them if the Comair MEC screwed them. You'll get a different story. It's OK for them to screw over others, but they should be bowed down to.

Wait!! It was a different time and a different MEC!!

OK, then let's see what THIS Delta MEC is made of. Let's see them stand up, put the past behind them and go to management and DEMAND that the Comair pilots be given first right of hire.

Don't hold your breath. They're too busy pulling up the ladder.

BTW...history will show that the only MEC and pilot group that had the integrity to go to management and insist on first right of interview and hire should go to EAL pilots?

The UAL MEC under Rick Dubinsky. Several hundred were hired. And they didn't take ONE Eastern airplane.

Exactly. ALPA is not a union. There is absolutely no "brotherhood" whatsoever.

From Comair's Pilot Agreement, Section 1-3, B.Successorship:

"The company will require any successor resulting from the transfer of the ownership or control of all or substantially all of the equity securities or assets of the company (a "successorship transaction") to recognize the Association as the representative of the pilots, to employ the pilots on the seniority list in accordance with the provisions of this Agreement and to assume and be bound by the Agreement. The company agrees to give written notice of the terms of this Agreement to a proposed successor before concluding any successorship transaction."

Seems like ALPA is not representing the interest of Comair pilots if Delta allows any other pilot group to fly those 28 70s & 90s which comprise 71% of the seating capacity at Comair.

From Comair's Pilot Agreement, Section 1-3, B.Successorship:

&quot;The company will require any successor resulting from the transfer of the ownership or control of all or substantially all of the equity securities or assets of the company (a &quot;successorship transaction&quot;) to recognize the Association as the representative of the pilots, to employ the pilots on the seniority list in accordance with the provisions of this Agreement and to assume and be bound by the Agreement. The company agrees to give written notice of the terms of this Agreement to a proposed successor before concluding any successorship transaction.&quot;

Seems like ALPA is not representing the interest of Comair pilots if Delta allows any other pilot group to fly those 28 70s & 90s which comprise 71% of the seating capacity at Comair.

Thats if Comair were to get bought by, merged into, or transfer its airplanes to another airline. That isn't happening here. Comair is being shut down and then its former airplanes are being reallocated by Delta.

And how did the saints at EAL treat the Braniff pilots with the South American routes? Hmmm......




One has to first remember that ALPA is NOT a union...it's an "association" of individual unions that never adapted to the post deregulation world. Everyone continued to operate under the "I have mine, pull up the ladder" mindset that was focused on personal greed and not true trade unionism, where you truly support your fellow members and in doing so, gain strength and leverage in the industry.

Just ask any EAL pilot who got hired by DAL when DAL took all those EAL jets and gates. You won't find any because DAL's MEC fought against implementing the ALPA merger and fragmentation policy. Ask them about the help they extended to their regional partner pilots for preferential interviews or hiring over the years. Nope, nothing there.

But ask them if the Comair MEC screwed them. You'll get a different story. It's OK for them to screw over others, but they should be bowed down to.

Wait!! It was a different time and a different MEC!!

OK, then let's see what THIS Delta MEC is made of. Let's see them stand up, put the past behind them and go to management and DEMAND that the Comair pilots be given first right of hire.

Don't hold your breath. They're too busy pulling up the ladder.

BTW...history will show that the only MEC and pilot group that had the integrity to go to management and insist on first right of interview and hire should go to EAL pilots?

The UAL MEC under Rick Dubinsky. Several hundred were hired. And they didn't take ONE Eastern airplane.

NERD

The "saints" referred to were UAL's MEC. Quite right about the EAL MEC regarding BN, but turnabout being fair play, the APA did the same thing.

GF

...

They're no better than any other, except for the fact that every pilot left there has made a bad career decision somewhere along the way... its why they're still there after so long...

This is pretty comical statement. You are commenting on how a certain group of pilots was elitist or braggarts and here you are thinking you somehow figured out the industry, after a year or two, rubbing it in peoples faces. Despite the obvious bad form you presume to understand why a pilot would want some semblance of a family life, why a pilot would want to make low 6 figures comfortably rather then be in jeapordy and a slave at the bottom of another airlines list, or maybe the pilot only has 10 more years left in this career and doesn't want to be in the right seat for the remainder of his career.

Going to a horrible company that treats it's employees like living trash is just as much a risk as trying to make a regional a career. Sometimes it works out for you and sometimes it doesn't.

I know full well that this career takes a few years to shake the stupid off but thinking that seasoned people in this industry need to be reminded that they just lost a hand at the blackjack table is the epitome of naivete.

NERD

The "saints" referred to were UAL's MEC. Quite right about the EAL MEC regarding BN, but turnabout being fair play, the APA did the same thing.

GF


As I said way back on page one of this sad thread, what is happening today with the RJ's providers is nothing new, this Churn has been going on for a very long time.

When are we going to learn to get togther, stop with the circular firing squad, and point the guns outward, at the politicians and CEO's who love 'churning' us? :rolleyes:

Very sorry guys/gals. Good luck with future endeavors.

Timbo

It has ever been thus. The UAL-Capitol and DL-Chicago & Southern merger were endlessly debated and hated. That generation went to their graves believing they had been unfairly screwed. And, thinking of BN, there was PanAm's sale of Panagra to argue about.

Is there a "fairly" screwed?

GF

As I said way back on page one of this sad thread, what is happening today with the RJ's providers is nothing new, this Churn has been going on for a very long time.

When are we going to learn to get togther, stop with the circular firing squad, and point the guns outward, at the politicians and CEO's who love 'churning' us? :rolleyes:

A national seniority list would be a good place to start imho

Delta has had it out for Comair since the strike in 2001. I'm not surprised.
Bingo ! Someone that actually knows what he or she is talking about. 89 days walking in circles and costing mother DL millions was the beginning of it all. It showed that we (Comair pilots) won, had control, and power through solidarity and determinition.

It showed that we (Comair pilots) won, had control, and power through solidarity and determinition.

Yup, you showed them...

Agreed. They may think they're the most respected from the inside looking out, but from the outside looking in, I can say they're not respected at all.

Many Comair pilots have always walked around with this "We're practically mainline, just flying RJs" attitude and looked down upon their companions at other regionals.

They're no better than any other, except for the fact that every pilot left there has made a bad career decision somewhere along the way... its why they're still there after so long. A regional is a place where jobs are outsourced to until the next bidding cycle. It isn't a career and its foolish to think otherwise, no matter how good things are at the current moment.

I guess striking in 2001 for 89 days to bring industry leading pay and work rules to the regional level doesn't demand your respect, lolwut. I would have to disagree, though. "Industry average" was certainly raised by the 2001 contract and this group deserves respect for the turmoil they went through to do so. Saying that "every pilot left there has made a bad career decision" is a very arrogant statement from someone who has been FORTUNATE enough to not find himself in the same situation...yet. My point is...bad decision, no; bad fortune, yes. You assume that the people left there have had a chance to advance their career. A place where 10 year guys had little opportunity to upgrade and hold the left seat for more than a year. With so little PIC, chose not to make a lateral move to a different regional and hope for better days at Comair. Perhaps you should thank these guys for raising the bar for all regionals and bid them good luck rather than telling them they are not respected by their peers the day after they find out they are loosing their jobs.

To all my my Comair friends- sorry it finally came to this, and I know you will all land on your feet and hit the ground running.

Back in 1993 the FAR 135 outfit I was working for went under. You couldn't buy flying jobs that year, and I was devastated. I had too little ME PIC to compete for the few jobs available. I did something else to keep food on the table and ended up getting a better flying job that I stayed at for six years. My point is that this may very well be an opportunity, but it's up to you to find it.

I'd also like to thank you for raising the bar on 2001. I was at Eagle and gladly paid the strike assessment although I was a starving SF3 FO with a family. I still remember the high fives at all the regionals when you got your contract with big raises and a pension. I too agree that THAT is why you are where you are today. You guys raised the bar higher than any of the majors EVER wanted it to go.

To those finding schadenfreude in this- that says far more about you than it does about the good people at Comair.

Good luck, blue skies, and tailwinds.

I don't see how Comair is any more respectable then other regional carriers.

Agreed. They may think they're the most respected from the inside looking out, but from the outside looking in, I can say they're not respected at all.

They're no better than any other.

Were you guys even around in 2001? Since the whole regional outsourcing debacle began thirty years ago, only one pilot group at a major regional had the cojones to stand up to mainline management and go on strike for an industry-leading contract.

Were there problems with CMR MEC and the treatment of DAL furloughees? Yes.

But for putting their careers on the line and sacrificing their paychecks and putting their families through an 89-day strike, Comair pilots deserve the respect of every regional pilot.

Sadly, it was ultimately winning the battle in a losing war. As others have said, DAL management had it in for Comair since the day the strike ended. And it's come to this sad end.

Good luck to all Comair-ers past and present. In an industry that demands huge sacrifices from every regional pilot, you guys and gals paid more than your share.

Thanks, and Godspeed.

Were you guys even around in 2001? Since the whole regional outsourcing debacle began thirty years ago, only one pilot group at a major regional had the cojones to stand up to mainline management and go on strike for an industry-leading contract.

Were there problems with CMR MEC and the treatment of DAL furloughees? Yes.

But for putting their careers on the line and sacrificing their paychecks and putting their families through an 89-day strike, Comair pilots deserve the respect of every regional pilot.

Sadly, it was ultimately winning the battle in a losing war. As others have said, DAL management had it in for Comair since the day the strike ended. And it's come to this sad end.

Good luck to all Comair-ers past and present. In an industry that demands huge sacrifices from every regional pilot, you guys and gals paid more than your share.

Thanks, and Godspeed.

Of course striking is commendable, but that was 11 years ago. 11 years that these pilots have had to find a new job where they're not flying someone elses' jobs. Sure, the hiring market hasn't been great for a lot of them, but anyone with what it takes to move on in the world has had the opportunity to do so in that time.

Saying that only they have the cajones to stand up to management? There we go again. Comair pilots aren't these amazing regional pilots... they were just given an opportunity that most of us would love to have. How many other regionals since then have been given the ability to strike? Not many. Pilots industry wide have the cajones and resolve to do what the Comair pilots did, and they do it in whatever way they can. ASA pilots come to mind, they sure did stick it to management pretty good and they didn't even have governmental permission to do so... they put themselves on the line just as much or more than the Comair pilots did.

If Comair pilots really had cajones, why are they still showing up to work in light of this news? How bout a good ol' fashioned sick out or something? If that happened, I'd change my tune.

Position: RJ FO

Scope of experience: one regional airline

Furloughs: zero

years in the industry: Most likely less than 2

Age: <25

Location: Mom's basement

any questions?

Were you guys even around in 2001? Since the whole regional outsourcing debacle began thirty years ago, only one pilot group at a major regional had the cojones to stand up to mainline management and go on strike for an industry-leading contract.

Were there problems with CMR MEC and the treatment of DAL furloughees? Yes.

But for putting their careers on the line and sacrificing their paychecks and putting their families through an 89-day strike, Comair pilots deserve the respect of every regional pilot.

Sadly, it was ultimately winning the battle in a losing war. As others have said, DAL management had it in for Comair since the day the strike ended. And it's come to this sad end.

Good luck to all Comair-ers past and present. In an industry that demands huge sacrifices from every regional pilot, you guys and gals paid more than your share.

Thanks, and Godspeed.

Of course striking is commendable, but that was 11 years ago. 11 years that these pilots have had to find a new job where they're not flying someone elses' jobs. Sure, the hiring market hasn't been great for a lot of them, but anyone with what it takes to move on in the world has had the opportunity to do so in that time.

Saying that only they have the cajones to stand up to management? There we go again. Comair pilots aren't these amazing regional pilots... they were just given an opportunity that most of us would love to have. How many other regionals since then have been given the ability to strike? Not many. Pilots industry wide have the cajones and resolve to do what the Comair pilots did, and they do it in whatever way they can. ASA pilots come to mind, they sure did stick it to management pretty good and they didn't even have governmental permission to do so... they put themselves on the line just as much or more than the Comair pilots did.

If Comair pilots really had cajones, why are they still showing up to work in light of this news? How bout a good ol' fashioned sick out or something? If that happened, I'd change my tune.I am at work today because it's not all about me. The passengers have done nothing wrong to deserve having their plans ruined. I would much rather make sure that a dad sees his daughter married than teach Delta a "lesson".

Position: RJ FO

Scope of experience: one regional airline

Furloughs: zero

years in the industry: Most likely less than 2

Age: <25

Location: Mom's basement

any questions?

Hahahha. High five.

I am at work today because it's not all about me. The passengers have done nothing wrong to deserve having their plans ruined. I would much rather make sure that a dad sees his daughter married than teach Delta a "lesson".

Very good post

I am at work today because it's not all about me. The passengers have done nothing wrong to deserve having their plans ruined. I would much rather make sure that a dad sees his daughter married than teach Delta a "lesson".
I agree with your sentiment. It is also why management knows no matter what pay or conditions they shove down your throat, you will still show up to work for the greater good. That's the sad reality of airlines. We pilots are professionals who do not want our paying customers to be screwed. Management knows this and exploits it.

Good luck to all.

While it is sad, you cannot say it's anything new in this industry. Did you not see what happened to Eastern, Pan Am, TWA, Branniff, etc. pilots?

They were all Major Airlines, not 50 seat RJ operators.

I call it the Churn Game, and the airline CEO's have been playing it for a very long time. Delta's Richard Anderson was a Lawyer at CAL, working for Frank Lorenzo back when they took Eastern apart.

When ever one group stands up to Management;

Schwack!

Chopped up and sold off.

So, what's ALPA National's PLAN going forward??

They haven't had a plan to deal with this whipsawing, since deregulation in 1978.

Why not?

How many "Strategic Planing Committee" guys does ALPA National employ? And why? Where is the National SOS? That is the only 'hammer' we have, but there has NEVER been any talk of actually using it.

And don't be surprised when Cabotage raises it's ugly head in the next 10 years...


Just a precursor for airlines and other industries running afoul of management's will and determination to crush employees resolve. I say we see cabotage in the U.S. in less than 10 years.

Just a precursor for airlines and other industries running afoul of management's will and determination to crush employees resolve. I say we see cabotage in the U.S. in less than 10 years.

I agree, but first you have to ask, who writes the rules that right now, prevent it? And who can write a New Rule, or strike out a line or two in the old rules, to allow it?

Congress.

And who pays Congress to write rules, beneficial to themselves, through re-election campaign contributions?

Airline CEO's and Foriegn Governments, washing the money, through the 42,000 registered Lobbiest, some of whom actually write the legislation.

Like Deep Throat said a long time ago, "Follow the Money".

Which lobby gives more money to Congress, ALPA or the Airlines For America (used to be the Airline Transport Association)? Here's their BOD: http://airlines.org/Pages/Board-of-Directors.aspx

A4A outspends ALPA in political contributions by a factor of about 10 to 1.

Why do you think there was a "Cargo Cutout" in the new duty time and rest rules?

The National Mediation Board told the DAL MEC just about a year ago, that we would not be allowed to strike if we asked for 'too much' in contract negotiations. They said they would do to us, what they did to the APA; park us for 4 years or so, with no movement. That's why we settled for such a small contract, and even allowed bigger RJ's. At leats we recovered some of our outsouced flying, I hope the Com Air guys get hired to fly it.

What we have here is the Best Government Money CAN BUY. The problem for airline pilots is, we don't have enough money to buy enough politicians.

Of course striking is commendable, but that was 11 years ago. 11 years that these pilots have had to find a new job where they're not flying someone elses' jobs. Sure, the hiring market hasn't been great for a lot of them, but anyone with what it takes to move on in the world has had the opportunity to do so in that time.


Look up "classy" in the dictionary and there will be a picture of lolwut.

Please tell us, since you have it all figured out, why do you have "RJ FO" under your avatar? :confused:

I know full well that this career takes a few years to shake the stupid off but thinking that seasoned people in this industry need to be reminded that they just lost a hand at the blackjack table is the epitome of naivete.


Quite possibly my favorite quote ever.

If Comair pilots really had cajones, why are they still showing up to work in light of this news? How bout a good ol' fashioned sick out or something? If that happened, I'd change my tune.

Is that how they do it in the tenth grade?

I'm sure that plan of action would just bring in all kinds of job offers to the pilot group, wouldn't it?

Look up "classy" in the dictionary and there will be a picture of lolwut.

Please tell us, since you have it all figured out, why do you have "RJ FO" under your avatar? :confused:

I'm not all that classy in person but thanks for the compliment.

RJ FO or not, I've never stayed in my current position when the opportunity to move on to something better has been afforded to me. Most all current Comair pilots can't say the same.

Boomer,

Just ignore him. If you keep giving him attention, he will just keep making idiotic posts and will continue showing everyone what a complete (insert derogatory term here) he is.

It's an exercise in futility to attempt to carry on a semi-intelligent conversation with people like that.

People that dance on someone else's grave also kick their dogs and beat their girlfriends. You can't rationalize with that.

I do see that as a huge F you. You yourself said that you worked at a regional for 10 years. Now it seems like you and many others at Delta are forgetting your roots. The regional feed you hate, helped get you to where you are today. I agree that it got out of control, and that it needs to shift back towards mainline, but don't you think that a more gradual approach we be more appropriate? Good people are being affected at a bad time in aviation. Your CEO, RA, is a cold hearted calculating SOB that only sees dollar signs, and that attitude seems to be spreading throughout the Delta pilot group. The Delta pilot's reputation of arrogance seems to have caught up with you also.

Not forgetting my roots at all. RA is running a business. Is this business suppose to be fair? The RJ pull down is long over due and all hiring should reflect the work of the pilots at regionals, ie brign them on board asap.

I'm not all that classy in person but thanks for the compliment.

RJ FO or not, I've never stayed in my current position when the opportunity to move on to something better has been afforded to me. Most all current Comair pilots can't say the same.

How can you cast judgement on these guys when you have no idea what their situations were? Have you talked to any of them and asked why or are you just sitting outside looking in? Just because you have been able to move to new positions doesn't mean everyone can. Everyone has a situation that is unique and their motivation different. No one thinks alike, this doesn't make you smarter than them, just ignorant to have life works.

Not forgetting my roots at all. RA is running a business. Is this business suppose to be fair? The RJ pull down is long over due and all hiring should reflect the work of the pilots at regionals, ie brign them on board asap.

Well then maybe he should change his welcoming announcement and take out the words honesty and integrity. It's been my experiance that when people claim they are something, it's usually not the case. Especially integrity

Well then maybe he should change his welcoming announcement and take out the words honesty and integrity. It's been my experiance that when people claim they are something, it's usually not the case. Especially integrity

I am not sure what you want someone to say. Your anger being out of a job I totally get and can sympathize. However, I am not sure if you are being affected in a direct way. RJ contracts are just that, If RA and your CEO agree that it is financially better to proceed with a certain business plan I am sure your or my input is not a factor. Therefore, why blame DAL pilots. DAL pilots are protecting our jobs as best we can. I am hopeful it RJ flying will be further reduce and look forward to it as fast as possible. Participate if you wish but be sure you look at this situation from an objective professional view point. Mainly, we have no control over what management does. So don;t blame pilots like mushmouth did.:mad:

FWIW I DH'd on a Comair flight today and you guys were class all the way in spite of what is happening. Best of luck you all of you.

Get your facts straight before spouting off lies and sounding like a moron. Domestic oil production is highest since 2003.

Federal report: U.S. oil imports down, domestic production highest since 2003 - Los Angeles Times (http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/12/news/la-pn-report-us-oil-imports-down-domestic-production-highest-since-2003-20120311)

OOOooohhh boy I think you struck a nerve dropping the O-bomb like that!

Turning this thread political is a sure fire way to get it closed.

USMCFLYR

Let's leave politics out of it please.

Good luck Comair.

Delta pilots want the flying. Give it to them all at once. I hope you all use your sick time on the same days. Might as well cost Delta as much money as you can before you leave. I have been out sick since November! They may win the war, but we should inflict as much damage as possible before its over.

I am not sure what you want someone to say. Your anger being out of a job I totally get and can sympathize. However, I am not sure if you are being affected in a direct way. RJ contracts are just that, If RA and your CEO agree that it is financially better to proceed with a certain business plan I am sure your or my input is not a factor. Therefore, why blame DAL pilots. DAL pilots are protecting our jobs as best we can. I am hopeful it RJ flying will be further reduce and look forward to it as fast as possible. Participate if you wish but be sure you look at this situation from an objective professional view point. Mainly, we have no control over what management does. So don;t blame pilots like mushmouth did.:mad:

Ya i'm angry. You say it's business, I say it's greed. Whatever it is, it didn't need to be done like this. Delta made huge profits the last two quarters, and didn't have to rush into shutting Comair down. Lets not forget that Comair was opperating less than 20 of these inefficient CRJ 200's. A drop in the bucket compared to others. Why the rush? Why not wait until they started hiring again, and then do it. I'll use the word integrity again, and ask how RA or Delta shows it to others. Just business, whatever. The mob used to say that too. Now it's just legalized. Our laws allow a company to purposley poster themselves into bankruptcy. Or purposely drive one of their contracters into bankruptcy by not paying them. Buy them up after they devalue them. It should be illeagle. But they get away with it. Why? Because they have deeper pockets. When did we as pilots or human beings become so self serving? You say, we can't control what management does, and you are correct. But they sure as heck don't need a cheerleading section when they behave this way. Speak up if you don't like something. If enough people do, they will hear you. I just wasted 20 minutes of my night, rant over

Gojo,

What you write resonates. Delta states Comair is "uncompetitive" and has "high costs." Why wont anyone ask the logical question ... "Well, who managed Comair?"

Comair's costs are a direct result of:
(1) Scheduling inefficiencies as 9 carriers over fly one another across the same network carrying the same passengers.
(2) Fleet utilization inefficiencies (see above)
(3) Fleet age ... Delta outsourced new equipment to other providers
(4) Employee Longevity ... Comair has no low scale employees because as Delta shrank them, Comair became more senior.

Any Delta employee who does not understand these same people are managing Delta the same way don't understand this business. Delta mainline's costs are increasing as flying is performed by SkyTeam "partners." By my count there are 10 separate aircraft types & certificates serving just KLGA. If every square inch of the airport was used to house maintenance spares and house crews, there would not be sufficient room. Anything from a minor mechanical to a cloud over Washington Center is going to just destroy operational reliability in New York.

As our "partners" grow with new crews and new equipment Delta's costs will escalate in comparison. In fact, we already hear management stating this clearly in our quarterly investors' calls. (I think the number was 4% increase in costs due to capacity reductions ... but I've been up all night)

As employees there is nothing we can do in the face of management outsourcing except unity. This is where mainline pilots every where have let you, me, and this profession down. There should have been no Comair growth at Delta's expense. There should be no GoJets growth at Comair's expense. We should be in this together.

Every pilot will have to decide for themselves what course of action is best. I'm sure Delta will keep Comair's employment / payroll records and use them during interviews. Probably best to grit your teeth, fly safe, show up and do the work you get paid for. If I were doing the hiring seeing someone work through the most adverse circumstances imaginable would be a huge credit to the applicant's integrity.

Delta pilots want the flying. Give it to them all at once. I hope you all use your sick time on the same days. Might as well cost Delta as much money as you can before you leave. I have been out sick since November! They may win the war, but we should inflict as much damage as possible before its over.

WOW! Ya, and then maybe your Dad can go beat up their Dad too...:rolleyes:

Gojo,

What you write resonates. Delta states Comair is "uncompetitive" and has "high costs." Why wont anyone ask the logical question ... "Well, who managed Comair?"

Comair's costs are a direct result of:
(1) Scheduling inefficiencies as 9 carriers over fly one another across the same network carrying the same passengers.
(2) Fleet utilization inefficiencies (see above)
(3) Fleet age ... Delta outsourced new equipment to other providers
(4) Employee Longevity ... Comair has no low scale employees because as Delta shrank them, Comair became more senior.

Any Delta employee who does not understand these same people are managing Delta the same way don't understand this business. Delta mainline's costs are increasing as flying is performed by SkyTeam "partners." By my count there are 10 separate aircraft types & certificates serving just KLGA. If every square inch of the airport was used to house maintenance spares and house crews, there would not be sufficient room. Anything from a minor mechanical to a cloud over Washington Center is going to just destroy operational reliability in New York.

As our "partners" grow with new crews and new equipment Delta's costs will escalate in comparison. In fact, we already hear management stating this clearly in our quarterly investors' calls. (I think the number was 4% increase in costs due to capacity reductions ... but I've been up all night)

As employees there is nothing we can do in the face of management outsourcing except unity. This is where mainline pilots every where have let you, me, and this profession down. There should have been no Comair growth at Delta's expense. There should be no GoJets growth at Comair's expense. We should be in this together.

Every pilot will have to decide for themselves what course of action is best. I'm sure Delta will keep Comair's employment / payroll records and use them during interviews. Probably best to grit your teeth, fly safe, show up and do the work you get paid for. If I were doing the hiring seeing someone work through the most adverse circumstances imaginable would be a huge credit to the applicant's integrity.

I never post, but I just wanted to say: Very well said. Easily one of the best posts I have read on here.

Agreed. Bucking Bar your post is spot on.

Delta pilots want the flying. Give it to them all at once. I hope you all use your sick time on the same days. Might as well cost Delta as much money as you can before you leave. I have been out sick since November! They may win the war, but we should inflict as much damage as possible before its over.

That's a stupid business decision on your part. Hurting Delta will not help you. Delta will not even notice if you stop showing up to work....until you have an interview with Delta. Doing things out of spite gets you nowhere in life.

Yeah that's a stupid idea, but if these guys don't fly for the next 6 months after their company ceases operations they won't be even invited to an interview.

I never post, but I just wanted to say: Very well said. Easily one of the best posts I have read on here.

^^^^^^^ I know this guy. There's no hiding from me! :D

That's a stupid business decision on your part. Hurting Delta will not help you. Delta will not even notice if you stop showing up to work....until you have an interview with Delta. Doing things out of spite gets you nowhere in life.

I usually never agree with hockey but he is right in this case.

^^^^^^^ I know this guy. There's no hiding from me! :D

Check your PMs

Sorry to see these men and women go. True professionals.

Delta pilots want the flying. Give it to them all at once...

I'm kinda pretty sure that Delta isn't getting those 70s and 90s in September. The Pinnacle and SkyWest guys will be getting the flying, but we know what you meant.

Gojo,

What you write resonates. Delta states Comair is "uncompetitive" and has "high costs." Why wont anyone ask the logical question ... "Well, who managed Comair?"

Comair's costs are a direct result of:
(1) Scheduling inefficiencies as 9 carriers over fly one another across the same network carrying the same passengers.
(2) Fleet utilization inefficiencies (see above)
(3) Fleet age ... Delta outsourced new equipment to other providers
(4) Employee Longevity ... Comair has no low scale employees because as Delta shrank them, Comair became more senior.

Any Delta employee who does not understand these same people are managing Delta the same way don't understand this business. Delta mainline's costs are increasing as flying is performed by SkyTeam "partners." By my count there are 10 separate aircraft types & certificates serving just KLGA. If every square inch of the airport was used to house maintenance spares and house crews, there would not be sufficient room. Anything from a minor mechanical to a cloud over Washington Center is going to just destroy operational reliability in New York.

As our "partners" grow with new crews and new equipment Delta's costs will escalate in comparison. In fact, we already hear management stating this clearly in our quarterly investors' calls. (I think the number was 4% increase in costs due to capacity reductions ... but I've been up all night)

As employees there is nothing we can do in the face of management outsourcing except unity. This is where mainline pilots every where have let you, me, and this profession down. There should have been no Comair growth at Delta's expense. There should be no GoJets growth at Comair's expense. We should be in this together.

Every pilot will have to decide for themselves what course of action is best. I'm sure Delta will keep Comair's employment / payroll records and use them during interviews. Probably best to grit your teeth, fly safe, show up and do the work you get paid for. If I were doing the hiring seeing someone work through the most adverse circumstances imaginable would be a huge credit to the applicant's integrity.

My Bar speaks for me.

Very sorry to hear about the planned closure. I saw a referernce to the total number of employees. Does anyone know how many pilots are on the property? Is mainline going to be able to take any?

Bean

No Boo Hoo here!

Interviewed when right seat of the Banderante was a step down for me. PASSED!

Proud of you for initiating Jet service at the regional level, helped me in my career. But really.........would have happened somewhere; thus your ego.

Later, friends of mine walked the line for you guys, I paid strike benefits for you and when my contract came up, well, where were you guys? Laughing ! Not only laughing, but condemning us as a race to the bottom!

And you still do. I've seen bankruptcy, severe downsizing, yet still existing (with only the highest paid people on the seniority list left) . And still you look down on us!

You continue to look down on us and repeat your superior prim a dona attitude and ask us to feel sad for your own self destructive behavior.

I am truly sorry for the effects on your individual lives.

As a group, you reap what you have sowed.

I feel bad for the Comair pilots, however, looking at the DOH for the most junior FO these pilots will get another job by next June. When the 1500 hr requirement is implemented there will be plenty of jobs open when the college kids get sent packing. :)

Delta pilots want the flying. Give it to them all at once. I hope you all use your sick time on the same days. Might as well cost Delta as much money as you can before you leave. I have been out sick since November! They may win the war, but we should inflict as much damage as possible before its over.

I'm sure you'll get the threat from your president, p-56 RG, that if you call in sick your last days that they will change the terms of your termination. It's a threat that he indicated at his last carrier.

Good luck to all

I'm sure you'll get the threat from your president, p-56 RG, that if you call in sick your last days that they will change the terms of your termination. It's a threat that he indicated at his last carrier.

Good luck to all


Change the terms of your termination?!?!?!.....like what, no smile when they say you're let go?? If there is no payout for endless sick time guys have, that is just $$$ that the company keeps. And yes, guys will get hired at a major, even if they have used their sick time.

I think the terms are similar to what the people that took the buyout had. They will "give" you certain things as long as you play nice until the end. "Things" might include pass benefits, severance pay, a nice Honeybaked Ham....you get the picture.

I think the terms are similar to what the people that took the buyout had. They will "give" you certain things as long as you play nice until the end. "Things" might include pass benefits, severance pay, a nice Honeybaked Ham....you get the picture.

(Homer Simpson voice) MMMMMMMMMM HONEY BAKED HAMS- mmmmmmmAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

Mr. Burns never gave me a honey baked ham (glamour shots CEO) said it costed the company too much as he left us with his big glute delta payout.

To all the Delta pilots getting on here gloating about Comair's demise- Guys/Gals how can you? I do not know of one pilot that agreed with what JC Lawson did during the time of you guys' furlough. To take it out on an entire pilot group is shameful. Since you guys are so much better than Comair why then did MAMA DELTA not broom Lawson and his band or tell Comair take our boys or we will take you?

But out of a vindictive agenda (let's be honest) Delta decides to **** off a 1 BILLION DOLLAR INVESTMENT for???????????????
So all you pilots that are gloating (and how in the hell do GO -HO JETSSSSSSSS pilots get on here and start bragging) just remember- the same NORTHWEST AIRLINES management that ran that once proud airline into the ground and ****ed off every work group that worked for them- now runs NORTH....ah DELTA. Have fun kiddos- wait and see what happens in this cyclic industry once the chips are down...again.

No Boo Hoo here!

Interviewed when right seat of the Banderante was a step down for me. PASSED!

Proud of you for initiating Jet service at the regional level, helped me in my career. But really.........would have happened somewhere; thus your ego.

Later, friends of mine walked the line for you guys, I paid strike benefits for you and when my contract came up, well, where were you guys? Laughing ! Not only laughing, but condemning us as a race to the bottom!

And you still do. I've seen bankruptcy, severe downsizing, yet still existing (with only the highest paid people on the seniority list left) . And still you look down on us!

You continue to look down on us and repeat your superior prim a dona attitude and ask us to feel sad for your own self destructive behavior.

I am truly sorry for the effects on your individual lives.

As a group, you reap what you have sowed.

Wow. Just wow.

Does your mommy help you change your Scooby Doo underwear every morning too?

To all the Delta pilots getting on here gloating about Comair's demise- Guys/Gals how can you? I do not know of one pilot that agreed with what JC Lawson did during the time of you guys' furlough. To take it out on an entire pilot group is shameful. Since you guys are so much better than Comair why then did MAMA DELTA not broom Lawson and his band or tell Comair take our boys or we will take you?

But out of a vindictive agenda (let's be honest) Delta decides to **** off a 1 BILLION DOLLAR INVESTMENT for???????????????
So all you pilots that are gloating (and how in the hell do GO -HO JETSSSSSSSS pilots get on here and start bragging) just remember- the same NORTHWEST AIRLINES management that ran that once proud airline into the ground and ****ed off every work group that worked for them- now runs NORTH....ah DELTA. Have fun kiddos- wait and see what happens in this cyclic industry once the chips are down...again.

http://www.sideshowcollectors.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=991&pictureid=11555

The interspersed all caps letters really help get your point across in a classy and well mannered way. Nicely done!

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/24219370.jpg

Wow. Just wow.

Does your mommy help you change your Scooby Doo underwear every morning too?

Be easy on the guy, that was only his 2nd post. And his 5th appletini.

To all the Delta pilots getting on here gloating about Comair's demise- Guys/Gals how can you? I do not know of one pilot that agreed with what JC Lawson did during the time of you guys' furlough. To take it out on an entire pilot group is shameful. Since you guys are so much better than Comair why then did MAMA DELTA not broom Lawson and his band or tell Comair take our boys or we will take you?

But out of a vindictive agenda (let's be honest) Delta decides to **** off a 1 BILLION DOLLAR INVESTMENT for???????????????
So all you pilots that are gloating (and how in the hell do GO -HO JETSSSSSSSS pilots get on here and start bragging) just remember- the same NORTHWEST AIRLINES management that ran that once proud airline into the ground and ****ed off every work group that worked for them- now runs NORTH....ah DELTA. Have fun kiddos- wait and see what happens in this cyclic industry once the chips are down...again.


Auto, I love you man!.

I agree, but first you have to ask, who writes the rules that right now, prevent it? And who can write a New Rule, or strike out a line or two in the old rules, to allow it?

Congress.

And who pays Congress to write rules, beneficial to themselves, through re-election campaign contributions?

Airline CEO's and Foriegn Governments, washing the money, through the 42,000 registered Lobbiest, some of whom actually write the legislation.

Like Deep Throat said a long time ago, "Follow the Money".

Which lobby gives more money to Congress, ALPA or the Airlines For America (used to be the Airline Transport Association)? Here's their BOD: Board of Directors (http://airlines.org/Pages/Board-of-Directors.aspx)

A4A outspends ALPA in political contributions by a factor of about 10 to 1.

Why do you think there was a "Cargo Cutout" in the new duty time and rest rules?

The National Mediation Board told the DAL MEC just about a year ago, that we would not be allowed to strike if we asked for 'too much' in contract negotiations. They said they would do to us, what they did to the APA; park us for 4 years or so, with no movement. That's why we settled for such a small contract, and even allowed bigger RJ's. At leats we recovered some of our outsouced flying, I hope the Com Air guys get hired to fly it.

What we have here is the Best Government Money CAN BUY. The problem for airline pilots is, we don't have enough money to buy enough politicians.

Wrong, this country forgot its roots and no longer has the balls to run these wanabee royals out on the end of a pitchfork like our founders did. Democracy takes balls, our prior generations sold those for quick ritches that were stolen back already.

Delta pilots want the flying. Give it to them all at once. I hope you all use your sick time on the same days. Might as well cost Delta as much money as you can before you leave. I have been out sick since November! They may win the war, but we should inflict as much damage as possible before its over.

That's a stupid business decision on your part. Hurting Delta will not help you. Delta will not even notice if you stop showing up to work....until you have an interview with Delta. Doing things out of spite gets you nowhere in life.


Agreed. While your anger is certainly understandable, the actions which you suggest are not a good idea. No matter whether you're a CA or FO, Delta will know who you are. Leaving an airplane at an outstation or being part of an organized sick out will guarantee bad things for your career.


Yeah that's a stupid idea, but if these guys don't fly for the next 6 months after their company ceases operations they won't be even invited to an interview.


There are plenty of ways to stay current. The same cant be said for cleaning your slate.

I do not know of one pilot that agreed with what JC Lawson did during the time of you guys' furlough.

.....and yet somehow he managed to remain the head of the Comair MEC for 6 years after he wrote the infamous letter.....

Post Deleted. It isn't worth my time or effort.

.....and yet somehow he managed to remain the head of the Comair MEC for 6 years after he wrote the infamous letter.....
Yeah, what was up with that? You'd think heads woulda rolled (recall).

Yeah, what was up with that? You'd think heads woulda rolled (recall).

I don't remember the time exactly but there was at one point. There were also a lot of politics involved. He was also the head when the group got an industry leading contract and lead the group through the strike. So at that time he had a lot of positive forward momentum. He was all about the power and staying in it.

.....and yet somehow he managed to remain the head of the Comair MEC for 6 years after he wrote the infamous letter.....

There is a difference between being so outraged over a single issue that the entire group wants him gone, and a good chunk of the group unhappy with the decision that many know about, some understand, and few place as their highest priority.

For example, say:
20% agree with the decision, or just have blind trust in Lawson's leadership
20% have no clue because they fly their trips and go home
20% think it's a bonehead move but have other, more pressing concerns when they decide how to vote for reps
20% read the letter, but don't understand the ramifications because they don't apply critical reasoning skills
20% read the letter, know this will backfire on a generation of Comair pilots, and vow to do something about it the next chance they get to vote.

Is this pilot group any different than the Delta pilot group?

Is this group likely to yank Lawson off the throne overnight?

In this scenario, are all Comair pilots unanimous and complicit in Lawson's offence?

I feel so much for the Comair guys and gals. The fact that i knew this outcome about 2 months ago makes it even more painful! (I knew but I was sworn to secrecy!) I was hoping there would be a last minute deal to sway their minds! I will truely love and cherish the time I spent at Comair, and I whole-heartedly thank Comair for taking a chance on a 1500 hour pilot in 2005. (believe it or not I was considered a low time guy back then!)

It is my hope that all the Comair threads will be officially closed on 9/29 along with the rest of the company. For whatever reason Comair has joined the list of extinct airlines.

All the threads have become the armchair quarterback blame game! I only have 6 years at Comair. But for whatever reason the company is done. I am looking at this as a fresh start. The sun will still rise tomorrow.

I already have a non airline interview next month and in the past 2 days I have had former coworker's offering to walk my stuff in at various carrier's who are about to hire. All non regional! You would have to force me at gunpoint to work at another regional! You name the company there is probably some former Comair pilot working there.

Feels like the 600lb gorilla is off my back now that the bullseye is off of us! Someone else is next. I think the regionals will continue to shrink. And really I hope they disappear.

There is a difference between being so outraged over a single issue that the entire group wants him gone, and a good chunk of the group unhappy with the decision that many know about, some understand, and few place as their highest priority.

For example, say:
20% agree with the decision, or just have blind trust in Lawson's leadership
20% have no clue because they fly their trips and go home
20% think it's a bonehead move but have other, more pressing concerns when they decide how to vote for reps
20% read the letter, but don't understand the ramifications because they don't apply critical reasoning skills
20% read the letter, know this will backfire on a generation of Comair pilots, and vow to do something about it the next chance they get to vote.

Is this pilot group any different than the Delta pilot group?

Is this group likely to yank Lawson off the throne overnight?

In this scenario, are all Comair pilots unanimous and complicit in Lawson's offence?

I'm pretty sure you don't want to accept a lateral move but by reading these boards, if need be, I will write you a recommendation letter to come aboard ExpressJet to keep you current. Av8rking
At least until Delta hires!
From one Comair brotheren to another!

Although, I am not at comair anymore I still follow up with buddies. I heard EJ is blocking help from national. You may want to look into it. Sounds like a sell out....

Although, I am not at comair anymore I still follow up with buddies. I heard EJ is blocking help from national. You may want to look into it. Sounds like a sell out....

And why would EJ do that? What is your source and proof?

Source, comair Facebook page. I said I heard.

It is my hope that all the Comair threads will be officially closed on 9/29 along with the rest of the company. For whatever reason Comair has joined the list of extinct airlines.

All the threads have become the armchair quarterback blame game! I only have 6 years at Comair. But for whatever reason the company is done. I am looking at this as a fresh start. The sun will still rise tomorrow.

I already have a non airline interview next month and in the past 2 days I have had former coworker's offering to walk my stuff in at various carrier's who are about to hire. All non regional! You would have to force me at gunpoint to work at another regional! You name the company there is probably some former Comair pilot working there.

Feels like the 600lb gorilla is off my back now that the bullseye is off of us! Someone else is next. I think the regionals will continue to shrink. And really I hope they disappear.

Well said and good luck to you. Many opportunities coming up soon. It is the chance we take when we do contract flying. Business is business--always has been-always will be. Sad--but true.

Source, comair Facebook page. I said I heard.

I just read that post as well. Wouldn't surprise me one bit if our fearless leader is up to something.

Don't let paranoia get the best of you, boys. You've got enough to deal with right now and adding to the stress won't help one bit.

It is my hope that all the Comair threads will be officially closed on 9/29 along with the rest of the company. For whatever reason Comair has joined the list of extinct airlines.

All the threads have become the armchair quarterback blame game! I only have 6 years at Comair. But for whatever reason the company is done. I am looking at this as a fresh start. The sun will still rise tomorrow.

I already have a non airline interview next month and in the past 2 days I have had former coworker's offering to walk my stuff in at various carrier's who are about to hire. All non regional! You would have to force me at gunpoint to work at another regional! You name the company there is probably some former Comair pilot working there.

Feels like the 600lb gorilla is off my back now that the bullseye is off of us! Someone else is next. I think the regionals will continue to shrink. And really I hope they disappear.

If you don't have any TPIC, chances are gonna be low. I have friends who were in same boat, most of the carriers who were hiring at the time, didn't care that you were laid off, if you didn't have CA time, they were treated like chopped liver in that regard. Good luck with future endeavors, times are tuff, hang in there.

Agreed. While your anger is certainly understandable, the actions which you suggest are not a good idea. No matter whether you're a CA or FO, Delta will know who you are. Leaving an airplane at an outstation or being part of an organized sick out will guarantee bad things for your career.





There are plenty of ways to stay current. The same cant be said for cleaning your slate.


Very true. Dal is taking not of operational issues or slow downs and it will effect your prospects here. Capt or Fo makes no difference. Don't burn any bridges. It's better than good advice, it comes from someone with knowledge that is trying to protect your careers.

If you don't have any TPIC, chances are gonna be low. I have friends who were in same boat, most of the carriers who were hiring at the time, didn't care that you were laid off, if you didn't have CA time, they were treated like chopped liver in that regard. Good luck with future endeavors, times are tuff, hang in there.

On the contrary it is highly possible to get hired with no TPIC. Most of Jetblue is staffed with our former FO's. I already have my ATP. I wised up and got it awhile back. No where to go to upgrade at the regionals right now. And I will not apply to GoJets.

Hopefully I get the job I interview for in about a week. Going into the Part 135 world flying Learjet's.

Trying to help the people losing their jobs after many years.

Just thinking but...

1. Flight records (logbook) If it is not up to speed you have to get your stuff out of admin quick because where would you get it from after they turn out the lights?

2. References. The Chief Pilots phone numbers (office) will go away too. Think about what/who to use then.

3. Interview sims. I flew as much autopilot off as the FSM and RVSM would allow me to prep any interview sims. I'm glad I did because the interview is a good place to do well. Having 18 years flying and not being able to fly the sim manually would not look good. I had no idea how much my skills had faded until I flew A/P off intentionally.

There are many other tips that people have and they mean well. Many of you have had the rug pulled out from under you and need to prepare quick.

Hopefully the Union has a lot more info out to help with the transition. If not ???

Well at least I get to go out on long call. Check your email from ALPA.

To all the Delta pilots getting on here gloating about Comair's demise- Guys/Gals how can you? I do not know of one pilot that agreed with what JC Lawson did during the time of you guys' furlough. To take it out on an entire pilot group is shameful. Since you guys are so much better than Comair why then did MAMA DELTA not broom Lawson and his band or tell Comair take our boys or we will take you?

But out of a vindictive agenda (let's be honest) Delta decides to **** off a 1 BILLION DOLLAR INVESTMENT for???????????????
So all you pilots that are gloating (and how in the hell do GO -HO JETSSSSSSSS pilots get on here and start bragging) just remember- the same NORTHWEST AIRLINES management that ran that once proud airline into the ground and ****ed off every work group that worked for them- now runs NORTH....ah DELTA. Have fun kiddos- wait and see what happens in this cyclic industry once the chips are down...again.

While there may be some gloating (understandably so in my view) by a few who were furloughed and had the door slammed in their face by JC and DF and their ilk...most are not gloating and truly empathize with your plight. Don't forget a lot of us happily paid strike assessments and walked the picket line with you...we just stopped supporting you after JC, DF and the RJDC.

Very true. Dal is taking not of operational issues or slow downs and it will effect your prospects here. Capt or Fo makes no difference. Don't burn any bridges. It's better than good advice, it comes from someone with knowledge that is trying to protect your careers.

Yup, have heard from what I consider a reliable source there has been a noted spike in operational delays and cancellations due to maintenance write-ups, diverts, fatigue, etc. Above historical norms and past practice. Word is Santa is making a list of who has been naughty and who has been nice.

Need immediate help. Does anyone have an email for the Comair travel department? Please send me a PM if not willing to post it publicly. Thanks.

Nevermind above post, please ignore it!