Airline Pilot Forums

I wasn't at all surprised to see 14 pages about GoJetssssss getting new flying, but nobody has mentioned this yet. Looks like Skywest is getting 5 new 700s and 29 new 900s. They are parking 66 200s over 3 years to make it happen.

SkyWest, Inc. Announces Additional Dual-Class Aircraft From Delta - MarketWatch (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/skywest-inc-announces-additional-dual-class-aircraft-from-delta-2012-08-02)

Interesting about the 29 -900s. OH had 13, so the remaining 16 would be from Pinnacle obviously. How many did Pinnacle have in ATL? Wasn't it only 10?

Daymmnnnn crazy

It said the 50's were being removed from Delta service and from the article they might not all be parked.

I thought PNCL had 16 CRJ-900's. This doesn't sound good for them.

Interesting about the 29 -900s. OH had 13, so the remaining 16 would be from Pinnacle obviously. How many did Pinnacle have in ATL? Wasn't it only 10?

16 of them, of which they rejected the leases in BK.

I thought PNCL had 16 CRJ-900's. This doesn't sound good for them.

Yup. They had 16 under DCI pre merger with Mesaba.

Intersting. How many 900s does that leave Pinnacle with?

I wasn't at all surprised to see 14 pages about GoJetssssss getting new flying, but nobody has mentioned this yet. Looks like Skywest is getting 5 new 700s and 29 new 900s. They are parking 66 200s over 3 years to make it happen.


Just to be clear, it says Skywest Inc. that means the owner of Skywest airlines AND Expressjet.

In particular, of those 34 planes, 9 are going to expressjet all arriving in sept and oct of this year.

Intersting. How many 900s does that leave Pinnacle with?

41 from Mesaba?

Pinnacle has known for a while now that the 16 ATL 900s were going away. Those were all the Pre Merger Pinnacle 900s. Mesaba's premerger 900s remain in service.

9 are going to OO, the other 16 have yet to be whipsawed.

So does this make Skywest scumbags too for taking planes from Comair?

So does this make Skywest scumbags too for taking planes from Comair?

No. It makes DAL scum bags for shutting them down.

No. It makes DAL scum bags for shutting them down.

Well played, Sir!

Whoops....

Today SkyWest, Inc. announced an aircraft agreement outlining delivery of 34 CRJ700 and CRJ900 aircraft and the removal of 66 CRJ200 aircraft from Delta contract service to be accomplished by 2015. While allocation of all aircraft in this agreement is not yet final, SkyWest Airlines will receive nine additional aircraft this year as a result of the deal. Specifically, SkyWest will take two CRJ700 and seven CRJ900 aircraft to fly as Delta Connection. We will take the first CRJ900 aircraft in mid-August and service will begin in September and October. *These aircraft will be flown from our Salt Lake City hub and maintained at both our Salt Lake City and Nashville hangars.*
...

So unless there was a similar memo on the Expressjet side of the house, I think these are all going to SkyWest Airlines.




Okay, so the breakdown is this:
Total Skywest Inc a/c: 34 5 CRJ700 29 CRJ900
ExpressJet: 9 3 CRJ700 6 CRJ900
Skywest: 9 2 CRJ700 7 CRJ900
unknown fate: 16 16 CRJ900

So the math works out that Skywest and ExpressJet are splitting the remaining 5 OH 700s & all 13 900s, and the 16 9E 900s are TBD. Some legit so far.....

So does this make Skywest scumbags too for taking planes from Comair?

No I think it just makes Gojet guys worse.

Uh oh. What will my ATL peeps do? Has 9E announced a -200 ATL base?

Uh oh. What will my ATL peeps do? Has 9E announced a -200 ATL base?
Probably the same thing our SKW ATL peeps did, get screwed.

So that is roughly 82 200s gone so far... 9Es 140 200s look like they will be 2 for 1 for the 70 900s. Leaving 9E at about 111 airplanes.

You guys knew it wouldn't take long for Delta to start wheeling and dealing. The -200 need to go and -700/900's need to be inked.

No. It makes DAL scum bags for shutting them down.


Pathetic sir

So with 66 SKW -200s on the chopping block and all of Comair's a/c gone, how many 50 seaters remain to cut?

So with 66 SKW -200s on the chopping block and all of Comair's a/c gone, how many 50 seaters remain to cut?

About 140...

Little off topic in regards to 9E but a frend of mine was just offered his job back at XJ in MN. Looks like 9E is gonna be XJ

Don't forget that Comair's currently operating 15 -200's.

66 from SKW Inc + 15 from Comair = 81 cut to date. They need to cut 195 so 195 - 81 = 114 left to cut and delta hasn't even started using the 70 CR9's their new contact allows them.

So that is roughly 82 200s gone so far... 9Es 140 200s look like they will be 2 for 1 for the 70 900s. Leaving 9E at about 111 airplanes.

Why would Delta give up the 16 900's in ATL for 9E to SKW or XJT if they were going to turn around and do 2 for 1 swaps on the 200 and give them brand new airplanes...doesn't make sense in my opinion when you already have pilots in the seats and an operation already running...all DAL has to do is lease the aircraft...unless Skywest is buying the airframes...

Do the 200's math. Don't look good for 9E.. Looks like the 125 200's will be ASA/SKY and 9E.

Skywest, Inc. owns leases on 25 of the 200's being parked, any guesses as to where they end up?

Don't forget that Comair's currently operating 15 -200's.

66 from SKW Inc + 15 from Comair = 81 cut to date. They need to cut 195 so 195 - 81 = 114 left to cut and delta hasn't even started using the 70 CR9's their new contact allows them.

Delta has to cut 218 CRJ-200s. Current 343 - 125 allowed = 218 cuts.

Pinnacle will most likely lose all 141 CRJ-200s from 2013-2015.

Delta has to cut 218 CRJ-200s. Current 343 - 125 allowed = 218 cuts.

Pinnacle will most likely lose all 141 CRJ-200s from 2013-2015.There are only about 105ish 200s left to cut to reach the 125 CRJ 200's by 2015. There are 70 more 76 seat jets to be awarded.

Uh oh. What will my ATL peeps do? Has 9E announced a -200 ATL base?Probably the same thing our SKW ATL peeps did, get screwed.

Probably the same thing our ASA ATL peeps(TM) did when OO, S5 and 9E opened ATL bases, and DL furloughs did when ASA got bunches of RJs in ATL before that -get screwed.

About 140...

Little off topic in regards to 9E but a frend of mine was just offered his job back at XJ in MN. Looks like 9E is gonna be XJ

Did see that coming, however, skywest's CEO made a big deal about not playing the race to the bottom game. Yet, they got airplanes. Hmmmm...

Probably the same thing our ASA ATL peeps(TM) did when OO, S5 and 9E opened ATL bases, and DL furloughs did when ASA got bunches of RJs in ATL before that -get screwed.
Welcome to the land of business. This isn't the only industry that has these issues, just name a few others................ every industry in world!

Did see that coming, however, skywest's CEO made a big deal about not playing the race to the bottom game. Yet, they got airplanes. Hmmmm...

They had some leverage in that they had no intention of letting Delta out of their contract unless they received favorable terms, and Delta REALLY needed to start getting rid of planes. Additionally, Skywest has enough economy of scale that they were probably pretty cost-competitive (god I hate saying that term) anyway.

It would be much better for Delta to pay slightly higher rates to Skywest for the 70/90 seat flying than it would for Skywest to keep operating the 200's for 7 more years (or whatever the exact time frame would be), even though that would have been really bad for Skywest at the end.

Each side needed the other to cooperate somewhat, but I'm glad to see that apparently some sort of quasi-reasonable business deal was hatched.

They had some leverage in that they had no intention of letting Delta out of their contract unless they received favorable terms, and Delta REALLY needed to start getting rid of planes. Additionally, Skywest has enough economy of scale that they were probably pretty cost-competitive (god I hate saying that term) anyway.

It would be much better for Delta to pay slightly higher rates to Skywest for the 70/90 seat flying than it would for Skywest to keep operating the 200's for 7 more years (or whatever the exact time frame would be), even though that would have been really bad for Skywest at the end.

Each side needed the other to cooperate somewhat, but I'm glad to see that apparently some sort of quasi-reasonable business deal was hatched.


What he said.

What happens to msp?

Why would Delta give up the 16 900's in ATL for 9E to SKW or XJT if they were going to turn around and do 2 for 1 swaps on the 200 and give them brand new airplanes...doesn't make sense in my opinion when you already have pilots in the seats and an operation already running...all DAL has to do is lease the aircraft...unless Skywest is buying the airframes...

Because they don't have to give them anything. With 9e in BK and DL being the DIP and biggest creditor, there is the possibility where DL could park all the 9e CR2's and not give PNCL anything.

DL's DIP financing wasn't an investment I feel they intend to grow, it was more to keep 9e afloat so they didn't incur a massive disruption.

Skywest, Inc. owns leases on 25 of the 200's being parked, any guesses as to where they end up?
AMR, LAX. :eek:

Pathetic sir

I disagree, sir.

Red97Vette

I'm sure calling the people you would like to work for "scumbags" will greatly increase your odds of not working there. Beware of your words, they shape your actions, beware of your actions, they shape your character.

It still amazing, DL takes back some measure of scope and the inevitable outcome is now hated by those that hoped for it.

GF

Red97Vette

I'm sure calling the people you would like to work for "scumbags" will greatly increase your odds of not working there. Beware of your words, they shape your actions, beware of your actions, they shape your character.

It still amazing, DL takes back some measure of scope and the inevitable outcome is now hated by those that hoped for it.

GF

So if you worked at CA the past 10 years, after the strike, and you are also wholly owned by DAL you wouldn't think DAL management were scum bags for just shutting the doors and kicking you out in the street?

That's fine they are taking the flying back, I'm not against that, just kicking out the guys you "own" out with nothing is a bit dirty.

Red97Vette

I'm sure calling the people you would like to work for "scumbags" will greatly increase your odds of not working there. Beware of your words, they shape your actions, beware of your actions, they shape your character.

It still amazing, DL takes back some measure of scope and the inevitable outcome is now hated by those that hoped for it.

GF

It is because people wanted delta to take planes from other companies to take back scope. Everyone cheers for what is best for the industry until it affects them.

How senior is LAX at Skywest lately? How long for a new hire?

Red97Vette

I'm sure calling the people you would like to work for "scumbags" will greatly increase your odds of not working there. Beware of your words, they shape your actions, beware of your actions, they shape your character.

It still amazing, DL takes back some measure of scope and the inevitable outcome is now hated by those that hoped for it.

GF

Totally agree, your attitude will leak through, either in your acquaintances or actions. Taking back scope will, even this little bit, engenders anger from the regional pilots. Imagine the anger from the major ALPA when scope was exploding at their expense and furlough. Regionals were never designed to be a career and those who put their eggs into that career level are bound to be disappointed eventually on the next RFI.

Delta has to cut 218 CRJ-200s. Current 343 - 125 allowed = 218 cuts.

Pinnacle will most likely lose all 141 CRJ-200s from 2013-2015.

This is correct.

218 to cut as outlined by Delta press releases.

218-66 from Skywest family = 152

152 - 16 from Comair = 136 remain to be removed by 2015.

Funny how Pinnacle has 141. Sure doesn't look good for them since 1.) the all the CRJ200 leases belong to Delta.
And
2.) the press releases indicated 2 for 1 lease returns leading to 70 new CRJ 900's.
And
3.) pinnacle in bankruptcy, unless they get their costs down to the G7 level, Delta will place these new aircraft (that they will "own" the leases on) to the lowest bidder.

Good luck guys

We all make our decisions where to work. Everybody hates on Go-jets but is Sky Pest any different. I will always welcome a jump seater from either airline because at this point it looks like I will be working at one of the two but I don't respect what there pilot groups are doing to the industry.

hold on.....gotta butter my popcorn...

We all make our decisions where to work. Everybody hates on Go-jets but is Sky Pest any different. I will always welcome a jump seater from either airline because at this point it looks like I will be working at one of the two but I don't respect what there pilot groups are doing to the industry.


Let's call a spade a spade here...

In this particular case, SKW and gojet are not the same animal.

Gojet is getting awarded new jets because they are cheapest, ie bottom feeders. You could hold their pilot group responsible for that.

SKW got new jets only because Inc had 66 200's on long-term lease that they were willing to trade with DAL 2-for-1 for larger jets. This was a 100% management deal on both sides, had nothing to do with pilots or labor costs. DAL gets to unload 66 200's early and SKW gets to keep 30 instead of loosing them all like they would in a RFP. As SKW management constantly reminds us, we are not cost-competitive in this industry (and getting less so every day).

Ultimately OH was terminated because of a decade-long blood-feud with DAL management. DAL probably would have given the flying to somebody else even if OH had the cheapest labor...they simply don't want regional labor under their roof, too much opportunity to make trouble.

We all make our decisions where to work. Everybody hates on Go-jets but is Sky Pest any different. I will always welcome a jump seater from either airline because at this point it looks like I will be working at one of the two but I don't respect what there pilot groups are doing to the industry.

We really can not put skywest in the same category as go jets because they pay better then our company does. (If i remember you are former XJ) I know a lot of Mesaba guys are mad at skywest because they came into MSP and pushed a lot of us out but that is not the same as what go jets is doing to the industry.

Pay is huge but that is only a fraction of the costs of a pilot contract. Work rules, retirement, insurance, training rules, all make up pilot costs which raise the price of the compensation for each pilot. All of that we have is because of ALPA and Comair pilots paved the way. Like it or not they took stand which in time was their demise. Like I said I will never treat a fellow pilot bad, but that doesn't mean I have to respect the whole pilot group.

This is correct.

218 to cut as outlined by Delta press releases.

218-66 from Skywest family = 152

152 - 16 from Comair = 136 remain to be removed by 2015.

Funny how Pinnacle has 141. Sure doesn't look good for them since 1.) the all the CRJ200 leases belong to Delta.
And
2.) the press releases indicated 2 for 1 lease returns leading to 70 new CRJ 900's.
And
3.) pinnacle in bankruptcy, unless they get their costs down to the G7 level, Delta will place these new aircraft (that they will "own" the leases on) to the lowest bidder.

Good luck guys

I doubt that Delta will purchase the jets, and Skywest is the only regional left with cash and good credit. Maybe Republic. I think 9E gets gutted down to Mesaba 900s only.

Like I said I will never treat a fellow pilot bad, but that doesn't mean I have to respect the whole pilot group.
And we feel the same way about you.... :rolleyes:

Let's call a spade a spade here...

In this particular case, SKW and gojet are not the same animal.

Gojet is getting awarded new jets because they are cheapest, ie bottom feeders. You could hold their pilot group responsible for that.

SKW got new jets only because Inc had 66 200's on long-term lease that they were willing to trade with DAL 2-for-1 for larger jets. This was a 100% management deal on both sides, had nothing to do with pilots or labor costs. DAL gets to unload 66 200's early and SKW gets to keep 30 instead of loosing them all like they would in a RFP. As SKW management constantly reminds us, we are not cost-competitive in this industry (and getting less so every day).



About that bolded portion....

In 2000, "Pinnacle is getting awarded new jets because they are cheapest, ie bottom feeders. You could hold their pilot group responsible for that."

In 2001-2004, "Mesa is getting awarded new jets because they are cheapest, ie bottom feeders. You could hold their pilot group responsible for that."

In 2007, "Compass is getting awarded new jets because they are cheapest, ie bottom feeders. You could hold their pilot group responsible for that."

In 2007, "Colgan is getting awarded new props because they are cheapest, ie bottom feeders. You could hold their pilot group responsible for that."

In 2001-2005, "Republic/Chautauqua is getting awarded new jets because they are cheapest, ie bottom feeders. You could hold their pilot group responsible for that."



Ultimately OH was terminated because of a decade-long blood-feud with DAL management. DAL probably would have given the flying to somebody else even if OH had the cheapest labor...they simply don't want regional labor under their roof, too much opportunity to make trouble
Don't insult Delta. Delta didn't terminate Comair because of a "decade long blood feud." Delta owned Comair and could have shut them down at any point and shuffled the flying across to numerous other regionals. Nothing would have stopped that from happening. And Delta could also have sold off Comair to Pinnacle, forcefully, and said "deal with it." Comair has been eliminated because they are the most senior pilot group in the DCI system to be operating only 44 aircraft, with the oldest and most expensive CRJ fleets, in an environment with gas at $100/barrel. The new Delta TA just accelerated the whole process.

Don't insult Delta. Delta didn't terminate Comair because of a "decade long blood feud." Delta owned Comair and could have shut them down at any point and shuffled the flying across to numerous other regionals. Nothing would have stopped that from happening. And Delta could also have sold off Comair to Pinnacle, forcefully, and said "deal with it." Comair has been eliminated because they are the most senior pilot group in the DCI system to be operating only 44 aircraft, with the oldest and most expensive CRJ fleets, in an environment with gas at $100/barrel. The new Delta TA just accelerated the whole process.


Ironically, these points that you bring to light about Comair being the most senior pilot group with the oldest fleet is, in fact, Delta's fault. So yes, blame and insult Delta.

Delta management did not invest in Comair and chose not to grow its asset for which it paid $1.5 billion (give or take a few hundred million). Delta management chose to shrink Comair down to nothing and make it a senior pilot group with only 44 airframes. Delta management chose to award airframes to other (cheaper) regionals via various RFPs. Why were they cheaper? Because Delta management failed to properly manage Comair.

Comair management didn't make these decisions. Delta management did.

Comair's failure as a regional airline is a direct result of Delta management's failure to properly run, maintain and invest in its asset.

About that bolded portion....

In 2000, "Pinnacle is getting awarded new jets because they are cheapest, ie bottom feeders. You could hold their pilot group responsible for that."

In 2001-2004, "Mesa is getting awarded new jets because they are cheapest, ie bottom feeders. You could hold their pilot group responsible for that."

In 2007, "Compass is getting awarded new jets because they are cheapest, ie bottom feeders. You could hold their pilot group responsible for that."

In 2007, "Colgan is getting awarded new props because they are cheapest, ie bottom feeders. You could hold their pilot group responsible for that."

In 2001-2005, "Republic/Chautauqua is getting awarded new jets because they are cheapest, ie bottom feeders. You could hold their pilot group responsible for that."




Don't insult Delta. Delta didn't terminate Comair because of a "decade long blood feud." Delta owned Comair and could have shut them down at any point and shuffled the flying across to numerous other regionals. Nothing would have stopped that from happening. And Delta could also have sold off Comair to Pinnacle, forcefully, and said "deal with it." Comair has been eliminated because they are the most senior pilot group in the DCI system to be operating only 44 aircraft, with the oldest and most expensive CRJ fleets, in an environment with gas at $100/barrel. The new Delta TA just accelerated the whole process.



No matter how you spin it, Go Jet as a whole are full of low lifes. Hahaha...speaking like you "actually" know why Comair was shut down. Tell you what...stick to what you guys do best over there...keep bringing the industry down.

Let's call a spade a spade here...

In this particular case, SKW and gojet are not the same animal.

Gojet is getting awarded new jets because they are cheapest, ie bottom feeders. You could hold their pilot group responsible for that.

SKW got new jets only because Inc had 66 200's on long-term lease that they were willing to trade with DAL 2-for-1 for larger jets. This was a 100% management deal on both sides, had nothing to do with pilots or labor costs. DAL gets to unload 66 200's early and SKW gets to keep 30 instead of loosing them all like they would in a RFP. As SKW management constantly reminds us, we are not cost-competitive in this industry (and getting less so every day).

Ultimately OH was terminated because of a decade-long blood-feud with DAL management. DAL probably would have given the flying to somebody else even if OH had the cheapest labor...they simply don't want regional labor under their roof, too much opportunity to make trouble.

Wait didn't SkyWest get a bunch of flying while flying 70's and 50's for the same rate? How is that any different than what GoJet is doing?

No matter how you spin it, Go Jet as a whole are full of low lifes. Hahaha...speaking like you "actually" know why Comair was shut down. Tell you what...stick to what you guys do best over there...keep bringing the industry down.

Full of low lifes? Yes, I'm sure United furloughees are low life's. Those major airline idiots. And the same for ATA, Champion, Midwest Express furloughees. All low life's. GMAB! You have no clue what you are talking about. FACT: GoJets today isn't any different than what other regionals were at some point: cheap labor, low seniority, and the growth associated with it. Get over it, sorry that your plans didn't work out. Hows that 737 type that you bought? And I don't for work for GoJets, just FYI.

Ironically, these points that you bring to light about Comair being the most senior pilot group with the oldest fleet is, in fact, Delta's fault. So yes, blame and insult Delta.

Delta management did not invest in Comair and chose not to grow its asset for which it paid $1.5 billion (give or take a few hundred million). Delta management chose to shrink Comair down to nothing and make it a senior pilot group with only 44 airframes. Delta management chose to award airframes to other (cheaper) regionals via various RFPs. Why were they cheaper? Because Delta management failed to properly manage Comair.

Comair management didn't make these decisions. Delta management did.

Comair's failure as a regional airline is a direct result of Delta management's failure to properly run, maintain and invest in its asset.

Delta knew Comair was too expensive with their 2001 contract, so why would Delta grow them? True, Delta owned Comair, so any mismanagement can be attributed to Delta. And Comair being a senior group wa not Delta's fault. Anyone starting at a regional under the age of 45 should have always had their hand on the "Pull to Eject" handle, but obviously that ended up not being the case. I knew my regional was just a stepping stone and I promptly moved on to a major at the first chance.

Delta knew Comair was too expensive with their 2001 contract, so why would Delta grow them? True, Delta owned Comair, so any mismanagement can be attributed to Delta. And Comair being a senior group wa not Delta's fault. Anyone starting at a regional under the age of 45 should have always had their hand on the "Pull to Eject" handle, but obviously that ended up not being the case. I knew my regional was just a stepping stone and I promptly moved on to a major at the first chance, and without any TPIC time mind you.

Sorry, but VX isn't a major by a long shot. I work there too, so I can comfortably say that.

But I won't argue back and forth on why it is Delta management's fault that Comair is in the bind that it is in now. It's pretty pointless.

Full of low lifes? Yes, I'm sure United furloughees are low life's. Those major airline idiots. And the same for ATA, Champion, Midwest Express furloughees. All low life's. GMAB! You have no clue what you are talking about. FACT: GoJets today isn't any different than what other regionals were at some point: cheap labor, low seniority, and the growth associated with it. Get over it, sorry that your plans didn't work out. Hows that 737 type that you bought? And I don't for work for GoJets, just FYI.

Life is great for me...LOL The 737 type came free thanks to the State of California...nice try though!!!!

Sorry, but VX isn't a major by a long shot. I work there too, so I can comfortably say that.

But I won't argue back and forth on why it is Delta management's fault that Comair is in the bind that it is in now. It's pretty pointless.
It is by definition for the 2012 VX year. Not sure where you came from prior, but this place is a huge step above any regional. I don't have any complaints against VX so far, YMMV.

Life is great for me...LOL The 737 type came free thanks to the State of California...nice try though!!!!
What program was this under?

Red97Vette

I'm sure calling the people you would like to work for "scumbags" will greatly increase your odds of not working there. Beware of your words, they shape your actions, beware of your actions, they shape your character.

It still amazing, DL takes back some measure of scope and the inevitable outcome is now hated by those that hoped for it.

GF

So now us regional guys who may very well be out of a job soon (I haven't called anyone a scumbag) who are angered by this "realignment" are the ones who should be thankful for all of this when Delta mainline pilots voted away scope from the very beginning? I am confused.
I get my job (and to some degree am happy) because mainline pilots vote away scope for money... I lose my job because the same pilots vote in a new TA which constricts scope... and I should be thankful now for not having a job? I'm not trying to elevate this situation here but what am I (and the rest of my coworkers) to you Delta mainline pilots? Just a cheap hooker you use and chuck aside when you are done getting what you want?
I won't make accusations, tell you about bad experiences on your jumpseats, or say you are screwing us. That is not my style. Can anyone tell me why I should be happy about facing unemployment because of all of this... like I said before... I must be confused.

What program was this under?

Guessing WIA. What do I win?

It is by definition for the 2012 VX year. Not sure where you came from prior, but this place is a huge step above any regional. I don't have any complaints against VX so far, YMMV.

I agree it is a step up from the RJ world, but it's not cool to forget where you came from. Also, you can't go around saying foolish things like setting age limits on when people should be leaving regional airlines. Everyone has their reasons. Just because you and I are flying the short 'bus now doesn't make us any better than those that either haven't moved on or couldn't move on for what ever reason.

If VX doesn't survive, can people say we were foolish for ever coming here? Of course not. We had our reasons for coming here just like some people have their reasons for staying at a regional airline.

And I used to be a Comair guy two airlines ago, FYI. So I might know a thing or two about the history there.

I doubt that Delta will purchase the jets, and Skywest is the only regional left with cash and good credit. Maybe Republic. I think 9E gets gutted down to Mesaba 900s only.

And that is where u would be incorrect. Note that 41 of the 200's being returned are DELTA financed. All the Comair aircraft are Comair (Delta owned, and still are...subleased to GoJet for example) and all 141 Pinnacle 200's are ultimately Delta owned. They sublease them to other carriers to get the debt off their books, but ultimately Delta still "owns" them.

Guessing WIA. What do I win?
Well, no, he said paid by the State of California, so it sounds like some sort of government assistance program. Not WIA.

Well, no, he said paid by the State of California, so it sounds like some sort of government assistance program. Not WIA.

Workforce Investment Act

But you knew that since you seem to know everything else.

I agree it is a step up from the RJ world, but it's not cool to forget where you came from.
Of course not, I am where I am today thanks to one of the lowest paying regional airlines in the industry.

Also, you can't go around saying foolish things like setting age limits on when people should be leaving regional airlines. Everyone has their reasons. Just because you and I are flying the short 'bus now doesn't make us any better than those that either haven't moved on or couldn't move on for what ever reason.
No one is 'better' than someone else. But you're confusing two different industry regimes here. The regional industry is entirely a cutthroat environment. There is no long term longevity or viability at a regional, simply be definition of what a regional is: contract feed. The shortbus carriers, like VX, NK, and Frontier, are all Major/National LCCs that have a business plan in mind that does not feed a mothership. We do not contract our flying out, nor are we dependant on another airline for feed. Don't confuse the business model of a regional with that of a LCC/major.

If VX doesn't survive, can people say we were foolish for ever coming here? Of course not. We had our reasons for coming here just like some people have their reasons for staying at a regional airline.
But again, entirely different model. If VX fails (or NK or Frontier), then you can't really fault them for not knowing the future. No one knows right now if in 10 years that VX, NK, or Frontier will be around. However, when it comes to regionals, the odds are considerably higher stacked against pilots because by definition the regional is doing contract work that is at the mercy of a major airline. The majors want cheap prices, lower costs, so it's a huge difference in the long term prospectus of regional carriers... it just isn't there. Are you willing to gamble your career on a regional outsourced feeder? I know I'm not!

And I used to be a Comair guy two airlines ago, FYI. So I might know a thing or two about the history there.
Then you know that your MEC sold you down the river with that memo post-9/11 that held Delta furloughees as hostage. Even crazier that the Comair MEC did not have any recall (heads roll). It would seem people were okay with the status quo. Unfortunately for your colleagues, the Delta pilots (and their MEC) didn't forget.


************************************************** *

I'd also like to copy/paste this post of mine from another thread, and I hope this explains to you why I feel the way I do in regards to regionals:

The industry is simply trying to re-adjust itself back to what regional outsource flying was SUPPOSE to be: cheap labor, where people come in, get their time, and move on. Regionals were never suppose to be a place where lifers would stop there, and push seniority to 20+ yrs for Captains and 10+ years for FOs. Comair's demise is coming from Delta, because it will not be feasible to have a 44 jet operation with the most senior regional pilot group in the country, flying the oldest CRJs in the country with the highest maintenance cost.

Some people think they're suppose to be rewarded for giving a career to a regional, well there's no reward. I remember when I showed up to class at 9E. Clive S walked in and told us to enjoy our time here, get our time, and move on in 5 years. He wasn't joking. That's what they want. Now, true, the economy tanked and hiring slowed, but it doesn't change the long term prospects at a regional.

EVERY regional today has grown at the expense of some other airline that was cutting its planes and pilots. Period. That is fact. At Pinnacle, the 1999 contract-for-CRJs was signed in and over 130 CRJs came in from 2000-2006, while NWA Boeing 727s, DC-9-10s/20s/30s disappeared altogether, along with many NWA pilot jobs. Similarly, Comair and ASA grew tons post 9/11, while Delta put over 1,000 pilots on the streets.

I don't blame GoJet pilots for where they are today. A significant number are United furloughees, who would love to go back to mainline. There are others from Champion, ATA, Aloha, etc, you know, places where ALPA failed to protect their jobs. Not to mention, GoJets was formed by a ruthless owner, in a battle he won against the TSA ALPA who tried to fight without any leverage. ALPA failed. Hulas wanted growth for a certain payrate, and TSA pilots didn't. You then must live with the consquences. This isn't the first time management has stepped around ALPA. Even Pinnacle was screwed when 9E Corp purchased a non-union airline as their driving model for growth, while shrinking (downgrading and displacing) union ALPA pilots at 9E.

Regionals are supposed to be cheap, with low longevity. The likes of Comair, Mesaba/Pinnacle have no place in the industry when you have the highest seniority pilots flying around for high costs. The Compasses and GoJets of the industry, newer regional airlines with very low longevity is where the growth will go. Let it be a lesson, espcially in the Delta Connection system. If you are a regional pilot in the DCI system, no matter what regional airline, you need to plan on moving on. Delta doesn't give a crap about your plans on being a regional lifer. They are going to give airplanes where it is cheapest.

Workforce Investment Act

But you knew that since you seem to know everything else.
No, I thought he meant Women In Aviation. That's the only WIA I know of. I honestly don't know about this Workforce Investment Act, so I'll look it up. But if it's a government assistance program, sounds like my tax money went to pay for someone else's career enhancement. Thanks socialism!

This back and forth between subcontracting pilots is hilarious. All of your companies exist simply because they(you) are lowballers. If we would have agreed to fly these jets for what you're doing, there would be no you. However, we allowed it and F'ed up. That is history and can't/won't be changed. This segment of the industry will be constant churn. But listening to a Mesaba, Eagle, Whisky, etc bash a 9E, Go jet, compass etc. is absurd. You are all the same. Cheap labor always willing to fly the next larger plane(that we stupidly give up) for a minimal amount or in skywest case, the same as the smaller.


We really can not put skywest in the same category as go jets because they pay better then our company does. (If i remember you are former XJ) I know a lot of Mesaba guys are mad at skywest because they came into MSP and pushed a lot of us out but that is not the same as what go jets is doing to the industry.

I don't have the patience or energy to keep this up tonight, so I'll just end with this. My whole point had nothing to do with business models or outlooks on the industry. It had everything to do with thinking that you are better than other pilots. I hate to burst your ego bubble, but you aren't.

And as far as the "letter" that you refer to, while I do admit that it was probably a mistake on the MEC's part to do what they did, there were 4 players in that scenario and all of them have blame: The DAL and CMR MECs and Delta and Comair management. So yes, the former CMR MEC has to bear some of the responsibility in that unfortunate circumstance.

I'm glad you have it all figured out and everything, and that you were fortunate and lucky enough to move on with no PIC time, though. Good for you. Unfortunately, not everyone always has a winning lotto ticket.

I don't have the patience or energy to keep this up tonight, so I'll just end with this. My whole point had nothing to do with business models or outlooks on the industry. It had everything to do with thinking that you are better than other pilots. I hate to burst your ego bubble, but you aren't.

And as far as the "letter" that you refer to, while I do admit that it was probably a mistake on the MEC's part to do what they did, there were 4 players in that scenario and all of them have blame: The DAL and CMR MECs and Delta and Comair management. So yes, the former CMR MEC has to bear some of the responsibility in that unfortunate circumstance.

I'm glad you have it all figured out and everything, and that you were fortunate and lucky enough to move on with no PIC time, though. Good for you. Unfortunately, not everyone always has a winning lotto ticket.
I never stated I was better than other pilots. If I was smarter and better, I would have walked away from this industry altogether. :)

We really can not put skywest in the same category as go jets because they pay better then our company does. (If i remember you are former XJ) I know a lot of Mesaba guys are mad at skywest because they came into MSP and pushed a lot of us out but that is not the same as what go jets is doing to the industry.

No, SkyWest didn't "push" anyone, Delta scheduled and we flew. SkyWest can't force their way into anything, Delta completely controls where and when our Jets and Crews go. Anyone who thinks differently all I have to say is, take a business class and then look at our industry. We are pawns and our customers (DAL, UAL, AA, US, AAG, etc) will dictate our futures.

Don't insult Delta. Delta didn't terminate Comair because of a "decade long blood feud." Delta owned Comair and could have shut them down at any point and shuffled the flying across to numerous other regionals. Nothing would have stopped that from happening. And Delta could also have sold off Comair to Pinnacle, forcefully, and said "deal with it." Comair has been eliminated because they are the most senior pilot group in the DCI system to be operating only 44 aircraft, with the oldest and most expensive CRJ fleets, in an environment with gas at $100/barrel. The new Delta TA just accelerated the whole process.

No, Comair was "eliminated" because Delta needed to cut flying and Comair was their only feeder without a contract for flying. They used Comair and the minute D-Pilots inked their contract Comair was done. It also allowed Delta to send a message to their feeders, don't F with us or well sink you.

It is by definition for the 2012 VX year. Not sure where you came from prior, but this place is a huge step above any regional. I don't have any complaints against VX so far, YMMV.






Not according to my buddies that work there... :rolleyes:

Not according to my buddies that work there... :rolleyes:
Someone beotching about where they work? I've never heard that before! As usual and always, YMMV.

So now us regional guys who may very well be out of a job soon (I haven't called anyone a scumbag) who are angered by this "realignment" are the ones who should be thankful for all of this when Delta mainline pilots voted away scope from the very beginning? I am confused.
I get my job (and to some degree am happy) because mainline pilots vote away scope for money... I lose my job because the same pilots vote in a new TA which constricts scope... and I should be thankful now for not having a job? I'm not trying to elevate this situation here but what am I (and the rest of my coworkers) to you Delta mainline pilots? Just a cheap hooker you use and chuck aside when you are done getting what you want?


Honestly? The cold hard economic fact is that all regionals are subcontractors. Forget all the PR feelgood crap about partners and stakeholders. Just like building a house, the general contractor, mainline, hires the subs, regionals, to do some of the work. If the sub starts to cost too much, or underperforms, they get replaced.

This has nothing to do with hard feelings about strikes, or emotional crap about who is better. This has to do with making money and increasing shareholder value. Everyone complains about past scope sellouts and wants the mainline to recapture it. What did everyone think? That the company would just move the planes and employees over to the mainline? This is the inevitable end result of recapturing scope. What do you think will happen when the next step, sunsetting all regional contracts comes up? Regional flying is an evolutionary dead end.

When the mainlines were furloughing after 9/11 and the regional were growing like gangbusters, did those that gleefully took the jobs have any care for the ones losing theirs? Did they think that it would go on indefinitely, or did they know or even care that this industry is cyclical and a pulldown would eventually happen?

I feel bad for the Comair folks, I do. I have been furloughed from two airlines in my career, it sucks. I learned to be prepared for anything. If you work in this industry, and don't prepare for the worse, you are only setting yourself up for disappointment. And for gosh sake, go read some books about the airlines! This is nothing new. This is history repeating itself. "Flying the Line I, II, III". "Hard Landings." Texas Air International and that scumbag Lorenzo. Educate yourself.

If you got into the airlines without knowing what happened in the past, if all you saw were shiny planes to fly, without seeing the career wreckage littering the field, if you weren't prepared because you failed to plan, then you have no one to blame but yourself. The goal is to work for the company who's name on the paycheck matches the name on the side of the airplane. Not everyone will make it. There is a figurative minefield of crap that lies in the way, and can strike when you are least ready. Even making it to the top is no guarantee of safety and lifelong earning. (There's that history thing again.)

Sors ventus Temerarus.

Honestly? The cold hard economic fact is that all regionals are subcontractors. Forget all the PR feelgood crap about partners and stakeholders. Just like building a house, the general contractor, mainline, hires the subs, regionals, to do some of the work. If the sub starts to cost too much, or underperforms, they get replaced.

This has nothing to do with hard feelings about strikes, or emotional crap about who is better. This has to do with making money and increasing shareholder value. Everyone complains about past scope sellouts and wants the mainline to recapture it. What did everyone think? That the company would just move the planes and employees over to the mainline? This is the inevitable end result of recapturing scope. What do you think will happen when the next step, sunsetting all regional contracts comes up? Regional flying is an evolutionary dead end.

When the mainlines were furloughing after 9/11 and the regional were growing like gangbusters, did those that gleefully took the jobs have any care for the ones losing theirs? Did they think that it would go on indefinitely, or did they know or even care that this industry is cyclical and a pulldown would eventually happen?

I feel bad for the Comair folks, I do. I have been furloughed from two airlines in my career, it sucks. I learned to be prepared for anything. If you work in this industry, and don't prepare for the worse, you are only setting yourself up for disappointment. And for gosh sake, go read some books about the airlines! This is nothing new. This is history repeating itself. "Flying the Line I, II, III". "Hard Landings." Texas Air International and that scumbag Lorenzo. Educate yourself.

If you got into the airlines without knowing what happened in the past, if all you saw were shiny planes to fly, without seeing the career wreckage littering the field, if you weren't prepared because you failed to plan, then you have no one to blame but yourself. The goal is to work for the company who's name on the paycheck matches the name on the side of the airplane. Not everyone will make it. There is a figurative minefield of crap that lies in the way, and can strike when you are least ready. Even making it to the top is no guarantee of safety and lifelong earning. (There's that history thing again.)

Sors ventus Temerarus.

Thank you for the well thought out response. I have read/prepared myself quite well for any situation. I guess I am getting tired of brow beaten for being a regional pilot and the tagline about how we should be happy about all of this is getting old. This will be furlough/layoff number 3 for me. Being "educated" while in a Delta jumpseat by a guy who's aviation career has been Military--> Delta is starting to leave a bad taste in my mouth but such is life I suppose.

August 03, 2012

SkyWest plans to add more than three dozen 76-seat aircraft to its Delta Connection service and remove nearly twice that number of 50-seaters as a nod to Delta Air Lines’ push for higher-capacity aircraft among its regional partners.

SkyWest, the parent company of SkyWest Airlines and ExpressJet Airlines, will take on 34 aircraft—five Bombardier CRJ700s and 29 CRJ900s—and shed 66 of its CRJ200s under an “understanding” reached with Delta. SkyWest will take delivery of the new aircraft between August 2012 and June 2013 for Delta Connection service and remove the CRJ200s between August 2012 and December 2015.

Of the 66 CRJ200s, 41 are Delta-financed aircraft and are scheduled to be returned to Delta without obligation to SkyWest, the Utah-based company says.

Of the 34 larger regional jets that SkyWest is adding to its Delta Connection operations, Delta says 18 will come from Delta regional subsidiary Comair, which is being shut down as of Sept. 29. Comair currently operates 15 CRJ700s and 13 CRJ900s.

The other 16 will come from Pinnacle, Delta says. Pinnacle, which is restructuring under Chapter 11 with Delta financing, operates 16 CRJ900s for Delta that are scheduled to be removed from service between January and May 2013; it also has a long-term deal to continue operating 41 other CRJ900s for Delta.

SkyWest CFO Michael Kraupp tells Aviation Week that SkyWest continues to determine its plans for the new aircraft—whether to take over existing financing, sublease them or pursue other actions.

The deal comes weeks after SkyWest expressed resistance to Delta’s plan to encourage its regional airline partners to end their 50-seat regional jet flying before feeder contracts expire. Kraupp told Aviation Week at the time that such an offer would not be acceptable unless an alternative were provided for the CRJ200s. He now says SkyWest is receptive to the deal because 41 of the 50-seaters belong to Delta and he is confident that SkyWest can place its 25 50-seaters “based on opportunities that we are working.” He says SkyWest will not have to park any of the aircraft.

The last sentence is what is the most interesting... ?

The last sentence is very interesting

So does this make Skywest scumbags too for taking planes from Comair?
It's just capitalism.

Heard from a reputable source that the CRJ-200's will be converted to mini freighters and will be flown for FedEx with flow up rights beginning mid 2013. (I'm a dirty liar)

August 03, 2012

SkyWest plans to add more than three dozen 76-seat aircraft to its Delta Connection service and remove nearly twice that number of 50-seaters as a nod to Delta Air Lines’ push for higher-capacity aircraft among its regional partners.

SkyWest, the parent company of SkyWest Airlines and ExpressJet Airlines, will take on 34 aircraft—five Bombardier CRJ700s and 29 CRJ900s—and shed 66 of its CRJ200s under an “understanding” reached with Delta. SkyWest will take delivery of the new aircraft between August 2012 and June 2013 for Delta Connection service and remove the CRJ200s between August 2012 and December 2015.

Of the 66 CRJ200s, 41 are Delta-financed aircraft and are scheduled to be returned to Delta without obligation to SkyWest, the Utah-based company says.

Of the 34 larger regional jets that SkyWest is adding to its Delta Connection operations, Delta says 18 will come from Delta regional subsidiary Comair, which is being shut down as of Sept. 29. Comair currently operates 15 CRJ700s and 13 CRJ900s.

The other 16 will come from Pinnacle, Delta says. Pinnacle, which is restructuring under Chapter 11 with Delta financing, operates 16 CRJ900s for Delta that are scheduled to be removed from service between January and May 2013; it also has a long-term deal to continue operating 41 other CRJ900s for Delta.

SkyWest CFO Michael Kraupp tells Aviation Week that SkyWest continues to determine its plans for the new aircraft—whether to take over existing financing, sublease them or pursue other actions.

The deal comes weeks after SkyWest expressed resistance to Delta’s plan to encourage its regional airline partners to end their 50-seat regional jet flying before feeder contracts expire. Kraupp told Aviation Week at the time that such an offer would not be acceptable unless an alternative were provided for the CRJ200s. He now says SkyWest is receptive to the deal because 41 of the 50-seaters belong toDelta and he is confident that SkyWest can place its 25 50-seaters “based on opportunities that we are working.” He says SkyWest will not have to park any of the aircraft.

I'd bet this is AA stuff. Using yesterday's business model for every other airline, it's the AMR way! Old 50 seaters in need of engine overhauls with the price of oil climbing...Makes no sense, but because of that I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if skypest birds were flying around with chickens soon.

Well by the logic of senior regionals get the ax. Then wouldn't ExpressJet be next on the block? Not sure what its like over at Skywest, but here (ASA side), we have lots of 20+ years. The top guy will have been here for 32 years in December. There are 1700 pilots on our list, and you don't get to a 2000 hire until number 406. There are about 700 pilots with 10 years or more.

Heard from a reputable source that the CRJ-200's will be converted to mini freighters and will be flown for FedEx with flow up rights beginning mid 2013. (I'm a dirty liar)

Package Freighters Overview (http://www2.bombardier.com/Used_Aircraft/en/P_F_Overview.jsp)

I'd bet this is AA stuff. Using yesterday's business model for every other airline, it's the AMR way! Old 50 seaters in need of engine overhauls with the price of oil climbing...Makes no sense, but because of that I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if skypest birds were flying around with chickens soon.


Good luck competing with Rjet! BB says they have been working with AA for flying thats in its future. Bar keeps getting lower everyday.

Of course not, I am where I am today thanks to one of the lowest paying regional airlines in the industry.


No one is 'better' than someone else. But you're confusing two different industry regimes here. The regional industry is entirely a cutthroat environment. There is no long term longevity or viability at a regional, simply be definition of what a regional is: contract feed. The shortbus carriers, like VX, NK, and Frontier, are all Major/National LCCs that have a business plan in mind that does not feed a mothership. We do not contract our flying out, nor are we dependant on another airline for feed. Don't confuse the business model of a regional with that of a LCC/major.


But again, entirely different model. If VX fails (or NK or Frontier), then you can't really fault them for not knowing the future. No one knows right now if in 10 years that VX, NK, or Frontier will be around. However, when it comes to regionals, the odds are considerably higher stacked against pilots because by definition the regional is doing contract work that is at the mercy of a major airline. The majors want cheap prices, lower costs, so it's a huge difference in the long term prospectus of regional carriers... it just isn't there. Are you willing to gamble your career on a regional outsourced feeder? I know I'm not!


Then you know that your MEC sold you down the river with that memo post-9/11 that held Delta furloughees as hostage. Even crazier that the Comair MEC did not have any recall (heads roll). It would seem people were okay with the status quo. Unfortunately for your colleagues, the Delta pilots (and their MEC) didn't forget.


************************************************** *

I'd also like to copy/paste this post of mine from another thread, and I hope this explains to you why I feel the way I do in regards to regionals:

The industry is simply trying to re-adjust itself back to what regional outsource flying was SUPPOSE to be: cheap labor, where people come in, get their time, and move on. Regionals were never suppose to be a place where lifers would stop there, and push seniority to 20+ yrs for Captains and 10+ years for FOs. Comair's demise is coming from Delta, because it will not be feasible to have a 44 jet operation with the most senior regional pilot group in the country, flying the oldest CRJs in the country with the highest maintenance cost.

Some people think they're suppose to be rewarded for giving a career to a regional, well there's no reward. I remember when I showed up to class at 9E. Clive S walked in and told us to enjoy our time here, get our time, and move on in 5 years. He wasn't joking. That's what they want. Now, true, the economy tanked and hiring slowed, but it doesn't change the long term prospects at a regional.

EVERY regional today has grown at the expense of some other airline that was cutting its planes and pilots. Period. That is fact. At Pinnacle, the 1999 contract-for-CRJs was signed in and over 130 CRJs came in from 2000-2006, while NWA Boeing 727s, DC-9-10s/20s/30s disappeared altogether, along with many NWA pilot jobs. Similarly, Comair and ASA grew tons post 9/11, while Delta put over 1,000 pilots on the streets.

I don't blame GoJet pilots for where they are today. A significant number are United furloughees, who would love to go back to mainline. There are others from Champion, ATA, Aloha, etc, you know, places where ALPA failed to protect their jobs. Not to mention, GoJets was formed by a ruthless owner, in a battle he won against the TSA ALPA who tried to fight without any leverage. ALPA failed. Hulas wanted growth for a certain payrate, and TSA pilots didn't. You then must live with the consquences. This isn't the first time management has stepped around ALPA. Even Pinnacle was screwed when 9E Corp purchased a non-union airline as their driving model for growth, while shrinking (downgrading and displacing) union ALPA pilots at 9E.

Regionals are supposed to be cheap, with low longevity. The likes of Comair, Mesaba/Pinnacle have no place in the industry when you have the highest seniority pilots flying around for high costs. The Compasses and GoJets of the industry, newer regional airlines with very low longevity is where the growth will go. Let it be a lesson, espcially in the Delta Connection system. If you are a regional pilot in the DCI system, no matter what regional airline, you need to plan on moving on. Delta doesn't give a crap about your plans on being a regional lifer. They are going to give airplanes where it is cheapest.

No one goes to a regional with the intention of making it a career stop. It is hard for people to move on when there wasn't anywhere to go since 9/11. The regionals grew, but there wasn't labor turnover because of the lack of opportunities. That is why regionals got "expensive".

Good luck competing with Rjet! BB says they have been working with AA for flying thats in its future. Bar keeps getting lower everyday.


I think it'll be both of them. Republic with 170s or 175s.

No one goes to a regional with the intention of making it a career stop. It is hard for people to move on when there wasn't anywhere to go since 9/11. The regionals grew, but there wasn't labor turnover because of the lack of opportunities. That is why regionals got "expensive".

I have a hard time buying that argument. Even since 9/11, everyone has hired except American Airlines.

I have a hard time buying that argument. Even since 9/11, everyone has hired except American Airlines.

Not any substantial hiring.

Let me put it this way- the major hiring wasn't keeping up with the rate at which regionals were growing. Add in 9/11, a recession and age 65 and we are where we are today.

It said the 50's were being removed from Delta service and from the article they might not all be parked.

In related news, Prince William asks Kate, "Do you see any of my hair growing back ? "

http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/sd1PBTOCmxeYnsxJv4u5Qw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD00Mjc7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/Reuters/2012-06-05T125302Z_1119238655_SR1E8650ZQ61T_RTRMADP_3_BRIT AIN-QUEEN.JPG

Bar keeps getting lower everyday.

Keen observation ...

Bar

Not any substantial hiring.

Let me put it this way- the major hiring wasn't keeping up with the rate at which regionals were growing. Add in 9/11, a recession and age 65 and we are where we are today.
True, but the will of those willing to move on just wasn't there until now. I can't count how many pilots I flew with that hadn't regularly updated their logbooks. Some behind a year, some even more. If people don't update their times, the impression it gives is they don't want to move on, nor have the will.

In related news, Prince William asks Kate, "Do you see any of my hair growing back ? "

http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/sd1PBTOCmxeYnsxJv4u5Qw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD00Mjc7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/Reuters/2012-06-05T125302Z_1119238655_SR1E8650ZQ61T_RTRMADP_3_BRIT AIN-QUEEN.JPG


To which her Kateness (not Katniss) said "I'm too busy aging 5 years for every 1 year to notice, I am. Now when will I be on money?"

To which her Kateness (not Katniss) said "I'm too busy aging 5 years for every 1 year to notice, I am. Now when will I be on money?"

Is her hat made out of Pizza Dough?

Is her hat made out of Pizza Dough?


And cheese cloth

You'd think with his royal money, he'd buy the best hair plugs or spray-on hair that money could buy. I know I would.

I've always said that if I start to go bald, I'm going to go with HRH's fellow Brit Patrick Stewart's/Jean-Luc Picard's look.

Oh yeah, and FUPM, too!!

http://oi54.tinypic.com/2v8sfo0.jpg

I have a hard time buying that argument. Even since 9/11, everyone has hired except American Airlines.


Yes but look at how many people were laid off around 911. How many TWA pilots hit the streets? US AIR? United?.....

When the majors were hiring they were re-hiring those that had already lost their jobs. Sure some people squeaked in. I know some that fit the right profile....right sex/race/religion/political affiliation etc...

Now those that have been working in the regionals for 7 years plus have not had that many opportunities. Age 65 put a 5 year hold for the most part. So supposed you were a 5 year regional pilot. Now stuck for another 5 years because of retirements.... You are now a 10 year regional captain making 90-100k.
You really going to take a plunge down to 30k? Sit at the bottom of the seniority list? Commute across the country? It will take 7 years working at a major before you have made up your losses.

Big gamble. I don't blame those that don't take it. I blame those that take the jobs a GoJerks though. They are after all and ALTER EGO AIRLINE>

You are now a 10 year regional captain making 90-100k.
You really going to take a plunge down to 30k? Sit at the bottom of the seniority list? Commute across the country? It will take 7 years working at a major before you have made up your losses.


That logic has held sway since 9/11 and only when compared to the concessionary contracts that were the result. It’s the salve that the average regional pilot comforts himself with to rationalize their place in the world, but now with Delta's new TA, as the shot that it is across the bow of Mgt. and with UAL, and American in negotiations and keenly aware of what Delta wrought out of their section 6, they will quickly turn that year 2000-era Regional logic on its head, when a 3 year MD90 FO is making what a 16 year SkyWest CA is making and 10 year 767 CA makes twice what a capped out SkyWest CA makes. Shoot fist year pay at Delta is more than 10 year Bro CA pay. Not to mention that the job security at any feeder will always be as secure as the last contract and whims of the Main line Mother Ship. Just ask Skyway, Freedom, and Comair.

That logic has held sway since 9/11 and only when compared to the concessionary contracts that were the result. It’s the salve that the average regional pilot comforts himself with to rationalize their place in the world, but now with Delta's new TA, as the shot that it is across the bow of Mgt. and with UAL, and American in negotiations and keenly aware of what Delta wrought out of their section 6, they will quickly turn that year 2000-era Regional logic on its head, when a 3 year MD90 FO is making what a 16 year SkyWest CA is making and 10 year 767 CA makes twice what a capped out SkyWest CA makes. Shoot fist year pay at Delta is more than 10 year Bro CA pay. Not to mention that the job security at any feeder will always be as secure as the last contract and whims of the Main line Mother Ship. Just ask Skyway, Freedom, and Comair.

Ssshhhh.....

Now those that have been working in the regionals for 7 years plus have not had that many opportunities. Age 65 put a 5 year hold for the most part. So supposed you were a 5 year regional pilot. Now stuck for another 5 years because of retirements.... You are now a 10 year regional captain making 90-100k.


Not even close at Pinnacle. 2007 hires have now been here 5 years and have NO shot at Captain for at least another 2-3 years maby more. Many will never see the left seat here. Sitting right seat at a regional is NOT a career job.

That logic has held sway since 9/11 and only when compared to the concessionary contracts that were the result. It’s the salve that the average regional pilot comforts himself with to rationalize their place in the world, but now with Delta's new TA, as the shot that it is across the bow of Mgt. and with UAL, and American in negotiations and keenly aware of what Delta wrought out of their section 6, they will quickly turn that year 2000-era Regional logic on its head, when a 3 year MD90 FO is making what a 16 year SkyWest CA is making and 10 year 767 CA makes twice what a capped out SkyWest CA makes. Shoot fist year pay at Delta is more than 10 year Bro CA pay. Not to mention that the job security at any feeder will always be as secure as the last contract and whims of the Main line Mother Ship. Just ask Skyway, Freedom, and Comair.


Yea... ssshhhhhhhh!!! Most of the Captains I fly with say they are staying put. Don't try to talk em' out of it. ;)

to mention that the job security at any feeder will always be as secure as the last contract and whims of the Main line Mother Ship. Just ask Skyway, Freedom, and Comair.

Given the history, name an airline in this country that offered secured positions to pilots?

Given the history, name an airline in this country that offered secured positions to pilots?

Or a 135 outfit, or a 91 Corporate job, or a fractional??? Sorry, the arguement doesn't hold about the regionals. There is the same uncertainty in every sector of this industry. The whole arguement about we sell our own tickets is short sighted.

Given the history, name an airline in this country that offered secured positions to pilots?

Southwest?

Given the history, name an airline in this country that offered secured positions to pilots?








Skywest... for the last 40 years

I bet history can show more major airline furloughs than regional.

Skywest... for the last 40 years

Past performance is no guarantee of future results.

I'm as bullish as the next guy for SkyWest in the near term, but I wouldn't plan a 30 year career here.

There is no "career" job in aviation. NONE. Even the mighty Southwest. 10 years from now that place could have the most disgruntled pilot group in the industry. All it takes is the wrong management. If you happen to make a career somewhere it is dumb luck.

There is no "career" job in aviation. NONE. Even the mighty Southwest. 10 years from now that place could have the most disgruntled pilot group in the industry. All it takes is the wrong management. If you happen to make a career somewhere it is dumb luck.

This could be said of all industry. Banking&finance, to logging. It's relative. Within each industry there will be the quality outfits and some are not. It's a false equivalency and only a fool says "some are bad so all are not worth it".

All you can do is make a discussion with the info at hand and you'll know when you retire if you were lucky.

At least outside of seniority-based airlines, one stands a chance to make a lateral move without going to the bottom of pay and standing.

GF

What is the ruckus about??? SkyW gets some new larger ac, sheds some smaller ac, and ends up with 25 crj2 ac that THEY FINANCE and fly for who??? Where are those ac going? It's a net loss of airframes.

Can't keep flying airplanes at cost/loss forever.....

Here is what I am seeing, and everyone please feel free to tell me that im way off in the left field on this, but Skywest once again shows why they have been in front of the wave on just about everything since their creation. Knowing that they could not be cost competitive with the low cut (expletive restrained) carriers (hint: rhymes with gojet) they found a way to secure flying for at least another decade, without bidding the flying at a loss. They agreed to void some of the existing agreements on the 200's and allow DL to opt out early, and in return they got a big piece of the new TA's pie. Nothing earth shattering about that, but what I do give them credit for is the timeline that the 200's will be retired, it almost perfectly mirrors the predicted attrition they will be experiencing, so as the pilots leave so go the planes. This seems to be the classic killing two birds with one stone, they solved their looming pilot staffing issues, and also secured additional 65+seat flying. The one big downside to this strategy is that upgrades will continue to be that moving target that will always seem to be just out of reach for so many current FO's.

Here is what I am seeing, and everyone please feel free to tell me that im way off in the left field on this, but Skywest once again shows why they have been in front of the wave on just about everything since their creation. Knowing that they could not be cost competitive with the low cut (expletive restrained) carriers (hint: rhymes with gojet) they found a way to secure flying for at least another decade, without bidding the flying at a loss. They agreed to void some of the existing agreements on the 200's and allow DL to opt out early, and in return they got a big piece of the new TA's pie. Nothing earth shattering about that, but what I do give them credit for is the timeline that the 200's will be retired, it almost perfectly mirrors the predicted attrition they will be experiencing, so as the pilots leave so go the planes. This seems to be the classic killing two birds with one stone, they solved their looming pilot staffing issues, and also secured additional 65+seat flying. The one big downside to this strategy is that upgrades will continue to be that moving target that will always seem to be just out of reach for so many current FO's.

I think there's a lot of truth to this post... Well said sir.

I bet history can show more major airline furloughs than regional.

Just watch that pendulum on its way back.

Here is what I am seeing, and everyone please feel free to tell me that im way off in the left field on this, but Skywest once again shows why they have been in front of the wave on just about everything since their creation. Knowing that they could not be cost competitive with the low cut (expletive restrained) carriers (hint: rhymes with gojet) they found a way to secure flying for at least another decade, without bidding the flying at a loss. They agreed to void some of the existing agreements on the 200's and allow DL to opt out early, and in return they got a big piece of the new TA's pie. Nothing earth shattering about that, but what I do give them credit for is the timeline that the 200's will be retired, it almost perfectly mirrors the predicted attrition they will be experiencing, so as the pilots leave so go the planes. This seems to be the classic killing two birds with one stone, they solved their looming pilot staffing issues, and also secured additional 65+seat flying. The one big downside to this strategy is that upgrades will continue to be that moving target that will always seem to be just out of reach for so many current FO's.

The wild card there though is JA's delusions of grandeur and when (not if) he tries to go IndyAir2 and blow all his money. Even Branson's little Howard Hughes wanna be experiment went through what, half a billion, before it even hopes to become sustainably profitable. JA can't bleed that much. Not even remotely close. And the day he tries, he's at DALPA's mercy because all that lift will have to be cancelled and contrary to legend and lore, the only significant penalties are being saddled with the leases, which DL is paying 100% already anyway.

If SKYW gets enough of an AA and UAL large RJ scope sale windfall, he just may be able to push off his inevitable ego based demise for another 5-10 years though.

What program was this under?

It was the WIA program.

Delta knew Comair was too expensive with their 2001 contract, so why would Delta grow them? True, Delta owned Comair, so any mismanagement can be attributed to Delta. And Comair being a senior group wa not Delta's fault. Anyone starting at a regional under the age of 45 should have always had their hand on the "Pull to Eject" handle, but obviously that ended up not being the case. I knew my regional was just a stepping stone and I promptly moved on to a major at the first chance.
My friends at pinnacle tell me you are quite the guy to fly with and got on at virgin with the minority card because, according to them, there is little else to justify your having been hired there. You are painfully preachy and condescending concerning matters you have little experience with ie the trams states back door by go jets it is a different story than negotiating in good faith for many years and remaining cheap ie Pinnacle

Going back to watching Olympic Ping Pong Qtr final re-runs. At least it is for real.

My friends at pinnacle tell me you are quite the guy to fly with
I usually left the company talks out of the flight deck as much as possible. My stuff was on airlinkpilots, and most of my stuff was true, but many didn't want to hear it.

and got on at virgin with the minority card because, according to them, there is little else to justify your having been hired there.
Really? How typical of someone jealous. VA calls pilots to interview based on how well you do on the online assessment exam. This exam consists of 15-20 math/pattern recognition-type questions and another 150 personality profile questions. This test is handscored and then based on the grade, pilots are called for an interview. Of course, those who fail the test find it easier to blame race of others as reasons that they themselves did not get called. I did well on the assessment, and got the interview.

You are painfully preachy and condescending concerning matters you have little experience with ie the trams states back door by go jets it is a different story than negotiating in good faith for many years and remaining cheap ie Pinnacle
I saw enough to form an educated opinion. Good luck in your escape.

Really? How typical of someone jealous.

Not to be cynical, but what exactly would he be jealous of?

Not to be cynical, but what exactly would he be jealous of?
Not him, it was a reference to his friends who pulled the race card in one pilot's hiring at a LCC. Those pulling the race card about others getting hired are typically the ones who are rejected from that airline or the ones who can't get an interview.

Here is what I am seeing, and everyone please feel free to tell me that im way off in the left field on this, but Skywest once again shows why they have been in front of the wave on just about everything since their creation. Knowing that they could not be cost competitive with the low cut (expletive restrained) carriers (hint: rhymes with gojet) they found a way to secure flying for at least another decade, without bidding the flying at a loss. They agreed to void some of the existing agreements on the 200's and allow DL to opt out early, and in return they got a big piece of the new TA's pie. Nothing earth shattering about that, but what I do give them credit for is the timeline that the 200's will be retired, it almost perfectly mirrors the predicted attrition they will be experiencing, so as the pilots leave so go the planes. This seems to be the classic killing two birds with one stone, they solved their looming pilot staffing issues, and also secured additional 65+seat flying. The one big downside to this strategy is that upgrades will continue to be that moving target that will always seem to be just out of reach for so many current FO's.

Absolutely brilliant. I wish Comair thought of that.

Not to be cynical, but what exactly would he be jealous of?








Shy Guy's gigantic ego?:rolleyes:

Here is what I am seeing, and everyone please feel free to tell me that im way off in the left field on this, but Skywest once again shows why they have been in front of the wave on just about everything since their creation. Knowing that they could not be cost competitive with the low cut (expletive restrained) carriers (hint: rhymes with gojet) they found a way to secure flying for at least another decade, without bidding the flying at a loss. They agreed to void some of the existing agreements on the 200's and allow DL to opt out early, and in return they got a big piece of the new TA's pie. Nothing earth shattering about that, but what I do give them credit for is the timeline that the 200's will be retired, it almost perfectly mirrors the predicted attrition they will be experiencing, so as the pilots leave so go the planes. This seems to be the classic killing two birds with one stone, they solved their looming pilot staffing issues, and also secured additional 65+seat flying. The one big downside to this strategy is that upgrades will continue to be that moving target that will always seem to be just out of reach for so many current FO's.

I think you are pretty spot on with a lot of this post, but I bolded where you slipped up. These 34 planes are not part of the new Delta TA. These planes are all currently flying at either Comair or Pinnacle. Everyone needs to remember that the 70 new jumbo RJs are yet to be assigned.

My friends at pinnacle tell me you are quite the guy to fly with and got on at virgin with the minority card because, according to them, there is little else to justify your having been hired there. You are painfully preachy and condescending concerning matters you have little experience with ie the trams states back door by go jets it is a different story than negotiating in good faith for many years and remaining cheap ie Pinnacle

You sir are an a** h***. You just managed to post one of the worst personal attacks that I have read on this site and you managed to do so by putting the blame for your attack on the people that you "heard" it from. Take some responsibility and just say it yourself, or let the people that you heard it from come on here and say it themselves. Don't insult someone and pass the responsibility for it off on someone else.

In my 3 1/2 years at Pinnacle, I had very little interaction with Shyguy. I knew who he was and we were based in the same location. From the few times I did talk to him, I never felt about him the way you portray him in your post. Disclaimer is that I never flew with him since we were both FOs so I can not comment about his on flight deck attitude. A lot of people on this site like to hate on him, but he is generally either completely correct on what he is saying, or damn close to it. Problem is that most people do not like to hear opinions that are counter to their own beliefs on a subject. This seems to be especially true with pilots.

If I remember my timeline correct, he was hired at Virgin a few weeks after I made my escape back in to the 91/135 world. I highly doubt that he did so by playing the race card. More likely is that he did so by researching the company, becoming very familiar with the operation, keeping his books up to date, and then actually applying for the position and passing the interview. This is the same way other FOs have gotten out of Pinnacle for better positions and I doubt anyone would make a claim of race cards with them.

My point with all this is, don't hate on someone just because you don't like their opinions. Counter their opinion with well thought out posts that present your side of the argument and prove him to be wrong.

Absolutely brilliant. I wish Comair thought of that.

inorite. That's the difference between dealing an ace and dealing a deuce.

deleted so ShyGuy wouldn't cry...

My friends at pinnacle tell me you are quite the guy to fly with and got on at virgin with the minority card because, according to them, there is little else to justify your having been hired there. You are painfully preachy and condescending concerning matters you have little experience with ie the trams states back door by go jets it is a different story than negotiating in good faith for many years and remaining cheap ie Pinnacle

At first I atacked skyguys posts but after a while I realized they made sense. I gotta admit he seems to have a good head on his shoulders and called it like he saw it.

At first I atacked skyguys posts but after a while I realized they made sense. I gotta admit he seems to have a good head on his shoulders and called it like he saw it.

You mean because nobody else felt like wasting energy posting the obvious, then claiming to be the only one who saw it coming since nobody else wasted their time posting about it? :rolleyes:

I think you are pretty spot on with a lot of this post, but I bolded where you slipped up. These 34 planes are not part of the new Delta TA. These planes are all currently flying at either Comair or Pinnacle. Everyone needs to remember that the 70 new jumbo RJs are yet to be assigned.



You sir are an a** h***. You just managed to post one of the worst personal attacks that I have read on this site and you managed to do so by putting the blame for your attack on the people that you "heard" it from. Take some responsibility and just say it yourself, or let the people that you heard it from come on here and say it themselves. Don't insult someone and pass the responsibility for it off on someone else.

In my 3 1/2 years at Pinnacle, I had very little interaction with Shyguy. I knew who he was and we were based in the same location. From the few times I did talk to him, I never felt about him the way you portray him in your post. Disclaimer is that I never flew with him since we were both FOs so I can not comment about his on flight deck attitude. A lot of people on this site like to hate on him, but he is generally either completely correct on what he is saying, or damn close to it. Problem is that most people do not like to hear opinions that are counter to their own beliefs on a subject. This seems to be especially true with pilots.

If I remember my timeline correct, he was hired at Virgin a few weeks after I made my escape back in to the 91/135 world. I highly doubt that he did so by playing the race card. More likely is that he did so by researching the company, becoming very familiar with the operation, keeping his books up to date, and then actually applying for the position and passing the interview. This is the same way other FOs have gotten out of Pinnacle for better positions and I doubt anyone would make a claim of race cards with them.

My point with all this is, don't hate on someone just because you don't like their opinions. Counter their opinion with well thought out posts that present your side of the argument and prove him to be wrong.

Your spot on about me not judging him by what others say and I have never met the guy. I was slap mean and shyguy I do not begrudge your getting out of pinnacle, all regionals are in a scary spot, in the slightest good luck. Sorry for the personal attack from someone who doesn't know you at all.

There is no "career" job in aviation. NONE. Even the mighty Southwest. 10 years from now that place could have the most disgruntled pilot group in the industry. All it takes is the wrong management. If you happen to make a career somewhere it is dumb luck.

Here is what I am seeing, and everyone please feel free to tell me that im way off in the left field on this, but Skywest once again shows why they have been in front of the wave on just about everything since their creation. Knowing that they could not be cost competitive with the low cut (expletive restrained) carriers (hint: rhymes with gojet) they found a way to secure flying for at least another decade, without bidding the flying at a loss. They agreed to void some of the existing agreements on the 200's and allow DL to opt out early, and in return they got a big piece of the new TA's pie. Nothing earth shattering about that, but what I do give them credit for is the timeline that the 200's will be retired, it almost perfectly mirrors the predicted attrition they will be experiencing, so as the pilots leave so go the planes. This seems to be the classic killing two birds with one stone, they solved their looming pilot staffing issues, and also secured additional 65+seat flying. The one big downside to this strategy is that upgrades will continue to be that moving target that will always seem to be just out of reach for so many current FO's.


Well, at least you're flying mainline "heavies". Skywest is the only regional that I know of who flies heavy metal out of CEZ to ABQ on a daily basis. The 700, what an airplane, what more of an amazing replica of flying fecal particulate could the Wright Brothers have asked for ?

Not him, it was a reference to his friends who pulled the race card in one pilot's hiring at a LCC. Those pulling the race card about others getting hired are typically the ones who are rejected from that airline or the ones who can't get an interview.


Whoa, whoa, whoa, stop the press! Aren't you the one that posted that article about the young black girl who got on at DAL while at Spirit? Now, your speaking out of both sides of your mouth, or DAL never called you...eh?


And please, please dont tell me your actually a minority?? If so, your a strange cat.

http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy356/thebl4ckd0g/michael-jackson-popcorn.gif

You mean because nobody else felt like wasting energy posting the obvious, then claiming to be the only one who saw it coming since nobody else wasted their time posting about it? :rolleyes:
"Posting the obvious?"

I had two prediction threads, one a bankruptcy thread by Jan 1, and one that Pinnacle Corp was looking to divest its ATL 900s and the entire Colgan operation. Both of these threads were met with heavy amounts of denial and insults, certainly NOT "obvious." I admit being wrong on the timing of BK, it wasn't Jan 1, it ended up being Apr 1. However, you cannot say I was posting the 'obvious' because it wasn't obvious to many, many people, and most of them were dumbfounded when the annoucement was made that the ATL-900s and Colgan were gone.


Link:
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/regional/65070-latest-pinnacle-rumor.html
---- met by denials and insults, thread closed.

deleted so ShyGuy wouldn't cry...
You can post it, or you can PM me. There isn't anything that'd make me cry. I left that nightware of a trainwreck before the bankruptcy.

At first I atacked skyguys posts but after a while I realized they made sense. I gotta admit he seems to have a good head on his shoulders and called it like he saw it.
Thanks. I could only go by observations and hunches, but I saw enough to want to get out last December.

Not him, it was a reference to his friends who pulled the race card in one pilot's hiring at a LCC. Those pulling the race card about others getting hired are typically the ones who are rejected from that airline or the ones who can't get an interview.[/QUOTE]


Whoa, whoa, whoa, stop the press! Aren't you the one that posted that article about the young black girl who got on at DAL while at Spirit? Now, your speaking out of both sides of your mouth, or DAL never called you...eh?


And please, please dont tell me your actually a minority?? If so, your a strange cat.
What? What article is this? I don't recall writing about this case?