Airline Pilot Forums

Well Done, NASA/JPL!! :)

NASA - Curiosity Lands on Mars (http://www.nasa.gov/externalflash/mars/curiosity_news3.html)

Congrats NASA.

You have just revolutionized unmanned exploration! Proud of you.

watched this live last night... pretty damn cool. I hope we see a manned Mars mission sometime while I'm alive.

I watched it last night as well...was amazing to think every time they would get an update, that it had happened almost 15 minutes earlier.

There is no limit to the potential ov VxWorks...One of the true technical wonders of the modern world...

My time at NASA was the highlight of my USAF career. Truly an exceptional organization...

I had no idea that we were UNsuccessful so often in Mars missions - both as a country and as a whole world wide space community. :eek:

USMCFLYR

The logistics of a mission to mars are pretty daunting. I'm sure it was a serious sigh of relief when the rover touched down. I'm hoping that this will be a big step towards a manned mars mission in my lifetime. I'd like to see us return to the moon this decade as well. The moon will be a huge player in near-space defense in the future, as well as a great launching platform for missions deeper into our solar system and to asteroids and such.

The logistics of a mission to mars are pretty daunting. I'm sure it was a serious sigh of relief when the rover touched down. I'm hoping that this will be a big step towards a manned mars mission in my lifetime. I'd like to see us return to the moon this decade as well. The moon will be a huge player in near-space defense in the future, as well as a great launching platform for missions deeper into our solar system and to asteroids and such.

I agree. It's time for NASA to get the actual funding that it deserves so they can put on the afterburners just like the 60's.

Curiosity's Flight Director:

https://images.nonexiste.net/popular/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Bobak-Ferdowsi-flight-director-of-NASA-s-Curiosity-rover.jpeg

This was the last photo sent back to Earth:


http://home.windstream.net/cjmatras/Mars_Landing.jpg

This was the last photo sent back to Earth:


http://home.windstream.net/cjmatras/Mars_Landing.jpg
Have you ever seen the internet joke going around that is a Martian Press release letting all Martians know that the strange object in the sky was a Martian Weather Balloon and no one should be concerned?

Very funny!

USMCFLYR

Found it: http://www.thecoffeeplace.com/jokes/aaaaabpe.html

Curiosity's Flight Director:

https://images.nonexiste.net/popular/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Bobak-Ferdowsi-flight-director-of-NASA-s-Curiosity-rover.jpeg

NASA’s adorkable ‘Mohawk Guy’ doesn’t want to date you | Seattle's Big Blog - seattlepi.com (http://blog.seattlepi.com/thebigblog/2012/08/06/nasas-adorkable-mohawk-guy-doesnt-want-to-date-you/)

NASA’s adorkable ‘Mohawk Guy’

See?

Government programs work just fine if you staff them
with competent people and fund them appropriately.

Mohawk Guy's generation has been told since birth
that government doesn't work by corporatist politicians
who get themselves elected claiming government is the
problem then go to Washington and prove it - like a self
fulfilling prophecy.

.

See?

Government programs work just fine if you staff them
with competent people and fund them appropriately.

Mohawk Guy's generation has been told since birth
that government doesn't work by corporatist politicians
who get themselves elected claiming government is the
problem then go to Washington and prove it - like a self
fulfilling prophecy.

.

Private companies provided the technology, taxpayers funded the effort. Government brokered the deal, none of this happens without funding from a robust economy or borrowing well beyond your means.

Understand that government has no money except that which it confiscates. Many mistake politics for real economic outcomes, nothing could be further from the truth.

Government did not build this effort, taxpayers did, thank one today. In fact, given the combined input of about half of the US people and government, we could not fund a bottle rocket.

Government did not build this effort...

Are you high right now?

Private industry wouldn't have done this on their own.
The risk to reward ratio by itself is a non-starter.

Are you high right now?

Private industry wouldn't have done this on their own.
The risk to reward ratio by itself is a non-starter.

You might want to take a few courses in economics, private industry and taxpayers funded every cent of this project.

You have mistaken the broker for the owners of the capital.

If you add the economic input of half of all americans and the total economic input of government, you could not fund the launch of a bottle rocket-where, exactly, do you think the funding comes from?

What is any project worth without funding?

For every brilliant technical success by NASA, you can see dozens of abject failures by the same broker.

See?

Government programs work just fine if you staff them
with competent people and fund them appropriately.

Mohawk Guy's generation has been told since birth
that government doesn't work by corporatist politicians
who get themselves elected claiming government is the
problem then go to Washington and prove it - like a self
fulfilling prophecy.

.

I see since the government managed to oversee the successfull landing of a spacecraft on Mars one must be crazy to not want the government to keep subsidizing medicine and higher education just because the cost of both continue to expand at twice the rate of inflation as the quality of both deteriorates. It is a fallacy to think that because government manges to accomplish something it is the best entity to accomplish everything.

Private companies provided the technology, taxpayers funded the effort. Government brokered the deal, none of this happens without funding from a robust economy or borrowing well beyond your means.

Understand that government has no money except that which it confiscates. Many mistake politics for real economic outcomes, nothing could be further from the truth.

Government did not build this effort, taxpayers did, thank one today. In fact, given the combined input of about half of the US people and government, we could not fund a bottle rocket.

+1


Want to see innovation...Check out

www.palantirtechnologies.com

No federal government agency could have done this...But, like a good broker of the tax payers money In-Q-Tel provided the funds to change the IC for the better...At least in this case...

You might want to take a few courses in economics,
private industry and taxpayers funded every cent of
this project.

Which private industry is funding Mars exploration?

Or is the basis of your remark about economics courses
that corporations pay taxes too and thereby are responsible
for some of the funding? Is that what you're trying to say?

.

Which private industry is funding Mars exploration?

Or is the basis of your remark about economics courses
that corporations pay taxes too and thereby are responsible
for some of the funding?

OK, now tell us where the funding comes from, while you are at it you can tell us why only a few countries can afford any space program. Can you tell us which companies actually built the vehicles used in our space program, here is a clue-they were neither built nor conceived in government workshops.

The economy funds the government, not the other way around.
The economy fuels all innovation, it does not happen by decree.

Government funds nothing, hard working citizens pay for everything.
You seem to have trouble with the true origins of wealth, but that is not uncommon today. Ignorance can be fixed.:D

Which private industry is funding Mars exploration?

Or is the basis of your remark about economics courses
that corporations pay taxes too and thereby are responsible
for some of the funding? Is that what you're trying to say?

.

Corporations dont pay taxes they simply collect them from their customers and pass them on to the government who funds their competitors (who if they contribute to the right politico do not pay taxes). See GE and "Big Oil".

N2264J, I invite you to look around your home or place of work and find a single thing inscribed "made by the government of the USA", if you can find such a thing please share it with us, we would all love to see it.

OK, now tell us where the funding comes from, while you are at it you can tell us why only a few countries can afford any space program. Can you tell us which companies actually built the vehicles used in our space program, here is a clue-they were neither built nor conceived in government workshops.

Are you being cryptic and obtuse because you can't answer the question:
Which private industry is helping to fund Mars exploration?

My understanding it that the companies building the equipment are being
contracted by the government. They aren't using their own money. NASA
is government jobs program.

Are you being cryptic and obtuse because you can't answer the question:
Which private industry is helping to fund Mars exploration?

My understanding it that the companies building the equipment are being
contracted by the government. They aren't using their own money. NASA
is government jobs program.

I'll make it easy for you: Where does government funding come from, who actually pays for it?

I am sure a sharp guy like you knows the answer to this very simple question.:D

N2264J, I invite you to look around your home or place of work and find a single thing inscribed "made by the government of the USA", if you can find such a thing please share it with us, we would all love to see it.

The internet.

The internet.

That is it? A common myth, unfortunately history does not support it, and I have never seen any gov produced hardware or software outside NSA or other special applications.

The internet had many fathers: History of the Internet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet)

Would you have us believe they also produced the telegraph, telephone and teletype?

That is it?

You asked for a single example.

The federal government, through the operation of government-owned research facilities, research grants to universities and procurement contracts with private industry, funds almost 50% of the national R&D effort. Because of this enormous funding, the federal government has the most United States patent rights. It is estimated that the government has title to over 30,000 patents and annually files several thousand new applications...

The Federal Funding of R&D: Who Gets the Patent Rights? (http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/matters/matters-9004.html)

A common myth, unfortunately history does not support it...

Whenever your article refers to ARPANET or DARPA, it's talking about the government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARPANET

.

You asked for a single example.



The Federal Funding of R&D: Who Gets the Patent Rights? (http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/matters/matters-9004.html)

It is a shame they can't generate any income on their own and it is telling that your single example is a fiction.

Does anyone subscribe to the fictional government internet service-anyone own a government server, router, modem or computer? Did they actually build a cable system? Inquiring minds want to know.

They do however continue to dump billions every year into snailmail, even with private sector help they can't make that work.
Think about that for a minute- a monopoly that can't even support itself but instead runs billions in the red every year.

Does anyone subscribe to the fictional government internet service-anyone own a government server, router, modem or computer?

Calling in backup? Shouting me down isn't going to change reality and misstating what
I've said is indicative of losing the argument.

This is from the Wikipedia entry you linked:

Commercial internet service providers (ISPs) began to emerge in the late 1980s and 1990s. The ARPANET [Department of Defense] was decommissioned in 1990. The Internet was commercialized in 1995 when NSFNET was decommissioned, removing the last restrictions on the use of the Internet to carry commercial traffic.

As a young congressman from Tennessee, Al Gore was responsible for legislation that facilitated the development of the internet in addition to funneling tax payer dollars to the new enterprise. By the way, contrary to popular belief, Gore never claimed to "invent" the internet but he was instrumental in its creation.

They do however continue to dump billions every year into snailmail, even with private sector help they can't make that work. Think about that for a minute- a monopoly that can't even support itself but instead runs billions in the red every year.

No taxpayer money goes to fund the Post Office. None. The fiscal problem with the postal service started in 2006 when corporatists in congress mandated that the Post Office fund retirement benefits for postal workers for 75 years within the next 10 years. In other words, put benefits away for employees who aren't even born yet. As a result, the Post Office starts out $5 billion in the hole every year.

Of course, their agenda is to kill the Post Office so they can throw some more business to their Wall Street sugar daddies. It's ironic behavior from congressmen who claim the Constitution is tantamount to the word of God because every little backwater Post Office and the road to get there have a constitutional mandate.

.

I love it when you lie:

Postal Service Registers $5.2 Billion Loss - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443404004577578962471350218.html?m od=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsForth)

Wondered when the hornets would swarm from that comment. They know the truth of all the myths because they have google and first hand knowledge. Love these socially inept tools for a laugh. Enjoy Fox. The rest of us will be out living life talking to the girls that ignore you. Have fun with your world that is so horrible chicken littles.

Wondered when the hornets would swarm from that comment. They know the truth of all the myths because they have google and first hand knowledge. Love these socially inept tools for a laugh. Enjoy Fox. The rest of us will be out living life talking to the girls that ignore you. Have fun with your world that is so horrible chicken littles.

Ignorance is indeed bliss, it is no accident that those pandering for ideology always have trouble with simple arithmetic.

I love it when you lie:

Get nastier as your position falls apart?

I don't know but I assume you're talking about the government line of credit, a loan expected to be paid back, which is only necessary because of the 75 year requirement to fund retirement benefits for people who haven't even been conceived yet. The chart you posted shows that the Post Office went into the red exactly at the moment the unnecessary retirement benefit requirement went into effect.

You never seemed to be offended by taxpayer subsidies going to the richest of oil companies which are not constitutionally mandated.

The Postal Service receives NO tax dollars for operating expenses and relies on the sale of postage, products and services to fund its operations. We are required by law to cover our costs.

Postal Facts (http://about.usps.com/who-we-are/postal-facts/welcome.htm)

Get nastier as your position falls apart?

I don't know but I assume you're talking about the government line of credit, a loan expected to be paid back, which is only necessary because of the 75 year requirement to fund retirement benefits for people who haven't even been conceived yet. The chart you posted shows that the Post Office went into the red exactly at the moment the unnecessary retirement benefit requirement went into effect.

You never seemed to be offended by taxpayer subsidies going to the richest of oil companies which are not constitutionally mandated.



Postal Facts (http://about.usps.com/who-we-are/postal-facts/welcome.htm)

Facts from those trying to protect an untenable position? Of course, what else would they say?

The fact is the postal service has been unable to manage their own affairs despite a monopoly status. Leadership has been unable to stem the flow of red. They have defaulted.

If you think a line of credit is not a tax payer bailout, or that any of it can possibly be repaid with the current rate of loss, then dream on.

The arithmetic is very simple, ideology can't change that or make it better. Without subsidies the USPS would have slipped beneath the waves a long time ago, why not take the 11 billion dollars they lost so far this year and compare it to the profit both FEDEX and UPS generated?

Tell us why a monopoly can't stay solvent?

You are correct in one thing-management has doomed any possible chance of solvency. It was a bi-partisan effort and about as successful as most of them.

Here's a nice shot from Curiosity:

NASA - Mount Sharp on the Horizon (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/msl/multimedia/pia16032.html)

Tell us why a monopoly can't stay solvent?

Again, a draconian requirement to fully fund retirement benefits 75 years out is why
the Post Office is not solvent. No other organization in the world has such a ridiculous requirement.

This is from the article you posted:

The Postal Service defaulted for the first time in its history on Aug. 1, failing to pay $5.5 billion for future retiree health benefits.

The debt can easily be repaid by reversing the 75 year requirement. It is a
manufactured crisis with a Wall Street outcome in mind.

Corporatists in congress are trying to privatize this successful enterprise in addition
to killing another public sector union and raiding their pension fund.

.

There is very little in this life that is more disgusting or ethically bankrupt than the tool who spends his time cheerleading for government-any government.

Again, a draconian requirement to fully fund retirement benefits 75 years out is why
the Post Office is not solvent. No other organization in the world has such a ridiculous requirement.

This is from the article you posted:



The debt can easily be repaid by reversing the 75 year requirement. It is a
manufactured crisis with a Wall Street outcome in mind.

Corporatists in congress are trying to privatize this successful enterprise in addition
to killing another public sector union and raiding their pension fund.

.

Please source your claim that the post office is required to "fully" fund 75 years of retirement cost. The post office is in trouble because their volume peaked in 2006 and has steadily declined since then. Additionally since the Post Office is not a True Public Sector organization they can not afford to pay public sector benefits to their non public sector union.

There is very little in this life that is more disgusting or ethically bankrupt than the tool who spends his time cheerleading for government-any government.

Here ya go:

REGULATION VACATION CELEBRATION! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QDv4sYwjO0)

Please source your claim that the post office is required to "fully" fund 75 years of retirement cost.

In 2006, the United States Congress passed the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act of 2006 (PAEA). This bill required that the USPS prefund its future health care benefit payments to retirees for the next 75 years in an astonishing ten-year time span...

Ralph Nader, "The Manufactured 'Financial Crisis' of the U.S. Postal Service" (http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2011/nader230911p.html)

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Well, Congress passed a law in 2006 that mandated that the Postal Service pre-fund its employees’ health—its retirees’ health benefits for 75 years, but to do it within a 10-year period...

As U.S. Postal Service Faces Default, Critics See Manufactured Crisis to Speed Up Privatization (http://www.democracynow.org/2012/8/1/as_us_postal_service_faces_default)

In 2006, a Republican Congress—acting at the behest of the Bush-Cheney administration—enacted a law that required the postal service to “pre-fund” retiree health benefits 75 years into the future. No major private-sector corporation or public-sector agency could do that. It’s an untenable demand...

Congress Fiddles While the Post Office Burns | The Nation (http://www.thenation.com/blog/169234/congress-fiddles-while-post-office-burns#)

.

Allow me to review. A government sponsored entity is given a monopoly that is tasked to break even. It is not required to pay taxes, vehicle registration or even rent.
The management of this business has failed miserably.
Management has failed.
Failure. For years and it is getting worse.

Who managed this GSE? The same people who managed the budget of the nation. Another gigantic failure.

Mind if I quote or should I say link Shawn Hannity to dispute your cliams by Ralph Nader, The Nation, and I forget the 3rd source which looney was it Jerry Brown or Barney Frank?

Just tell me the pertinent section of the law that the corporatist put in the 2006 law thats says retirement benefits for workers hired in 2081 must have their retirement benefits funded by 2016.

Allow me to review. A government sponsored entity is given a monopoly that is tasked to break even. It is not required to pay taxes, vehicle registration or even rent.
The management of this business has failed miserably.
Management has failed.
Failure. For years and it is getting worse.

Who managed this GSE? The same people who managed the budget of the nation. Another gigantic failure.


Dont forget they were given Billions (50 or 100 maybe) of dollars of assets to conduct their monopoly.

Some of the more astute among the readers here may have spotted a trend. Go for broke should be the motto for GSEs.
The most amazing thing about all of this is that even a monopoly and a money printing press cannot create a functional enterprise given decades of completely incompetent management.---------------------------------------------------------------


"The U.S. Post Service was established in 1775 – they’ve had 234 years to get it right; it is broke, and even though heavily subsidized, it can’t compete with private sector FedEx and UPS services.

Social Security was established in 1935 – they’ve had 74 years to get it right; it is broke.

Fannie Mae was established in 1938 – they’ve had 71 years to get it right; it is broke.

Freddie Mac was established in 1970 – they’ve had 39 years to get it right; it is broke.

Together Fannie and Freddie have now led the entire world into the worst economic collapse in 80 years.

The War on Poverty was started in 1964 – they’ve had 45 years to get it right; $1 trillion of our hard earned money is confiscated each year and transferred to “the poor”; it hasn’t worked.

Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965 – they’ve had 44 years to get it right; they are both broke; and now our government dares to mention them as models for all US health care."

The list goes on and on, but the bottom line is that we are now 100 trillion in the hole and digging it deeper every day.
Forget politics, it is finance and it is clear none of them can perform simple arithmetic.

A couple of thoughts:

--Disappointing that we land a probe on Mars and just get back some pictures and other data. Mobile platform and better pictures, but not qualitatively different than the 1970s Viking mission.

--Don't look for corporations on the moon or mars or anywhere else big enough to set up a customs office. No one is going to spend tens/hundreds of billions of dollars so it can be stolen by parasites from Washington or the U.N. Asteroids will be where the action is.

WW

BEST PICTURES YET of Curiosity!
Curiosity rover: Martian solar day 2 (http://www.360cities.net/image/curiosity-rover-martian-solar-day-2#896.19,17.95,70.0)

Disappointing that we land a probe on Mars and just get back some pictures and other data.

The marginal tax rate on earnings over $200,000 was 70% under Nixon when we were sending men to the moon.

The marginal tax rate on earnings over $200,000 was 70% under Nixon when we were sending men to the moon.

Apollo missions did not begin until after Grace Slick joined Jefferson Airplane (JA) in 1966. JA played their last gig in the Fall of 1972--the Apollo program ended weeks later.

WW

The marginal tax rate on earnings over $200,000 was 70% under Nixon when we were sending men to the moon.

The effective tax rate was much lower, but this is another excellent example of state barbarism and theft on a grand scale. Thanks for pointing it out, not that it has anything to do with this thread.:D

I would love to see your reaction if someone visited you and took 70% of everything you managed to earn this year, then you could tell us how you enjoyed the experience.

Apollo missions did not begin until after Grace Slick joined Jefferson Airplane (JA) in 1966. JA played their last gig in the Fall of 1972--the Apollo program ended weeks later.


Is the joke because you can't fathom the connection between our government, our
tax dollars and the most technologically significant aerospace achievement in our lifetime or is it because you do?

.

Is the joke because you can't fathom the connection between our government, our
tax dollars and the most technologically significant aerospace achievement in our lifetime or is it because you do?

.

If you don't already get the joke, I'm not sure if explaining it will help. Still, here it is:

The post of yours that I was lampooning noted a correlation between high marginal tax rates and the Apollo moon landings. Your post did not demonstrate any causation--yet suggested that "if only marginal tax rates were 70%"...then the naive reader is supposed to infer that we would still be on the moon, or Mars, or wherever.

This is a fallacy of relevance (arguments could be made for any of several of the class):

The fallacies of relevance, for example, clearly fail to provide adequate reason for believing the truth of their conclusions. Although they are often used in attempts to persuade people by non-logical means, only the unwary, the predisposed, and the gullible are apt to be fooled by their illegitimate appeals.

Jefferson Airplane is much more highly correlated with the Apollo program than 70% marginal tax rates. The top tax rate was that high, or higher, about the mid-30s to 1980. There were many more years when no moon landings were produced, despite such high tax rates. On the other hand, there were only a few months when Jefferson Airplane was around when there was no Apollo program.

Each postulate, then, is equally ridiculous. That is the joke.

WW

Each postulate, then, is equally ridiculous. That is the joke.

So you think it's just a coincidence that we have the lowest personal tax burden in the US since the early 50s and our astronauts have to rent seats on Russian spacecraft to fly?

So you think it's just a coincidence that we have the lowest personal tax burden in the US since the early 50s and our astronauts have to rent seats on Russian spacecraft to fly?

Obama's Budget to Add $4.4 Trillion to Debt in Next Four Years | The Weekly Standard (http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obamas-budget-add-44-trillion-debt-next-four-years_650614.html)

Please note that the BHO budget assumes the Bush and Obama tax cuts on the "wealthy" expire this January. It also includes his "millionaire tax". But you still think we have a taxing problem not a spending problem.

We have a problem where hard work is not always rewarded, where liars and thieves often prosper, and a class of people that can't wear the other man's shoes. Those that work for the honest wealthy can't understand the other side, while those who work for the crooks want them stripped of everything.

Even with all these differences, can't we agree that putting a camera on Mars is pretty flippin' awesome?

Well...little off topic from where this went...but here's the HD video of the landing (at 3x real time):

Complete MSL Curiosity Descent - Full Quality Enhanced 1080p + Heat Shield impact - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZX5GRPnd4U)

We have a problem where hard work is not always rewarded, where liars and thieves often prosper, and a class of people that can't wear the other man's shoes. Those that work for the honest wealthy can't understand the other side, while those who work for the crooks want them stripped of everything.

Even with all these differences, can't we agree that putting a camera on Mars is pretty flippin' awesome?
Did you read some of those comments from the bleachers at the end of the YouTube videos? Where do they come from and what happened in their lives to jade them in such a manner. Do they really see the black shrouded boogie-man behind every corner?

USMCFLYR

So you think it's just a coincidence that we have the lowest personal tax burden in the US since the early 50s and our astronauts have to rent seats on Russian spacecraft to fly?

The revenue/GDP appears to be nearly constant regardless of how top marginal rates vary. I'd posit that it is a spending, rather than a revenue, problem. Cheers.

WW

http://mercatus.org/sites/default/files/ADavies-marginal-income-tax-rates-5-PDF.jpg

The revenue/GDP appears to be nearly constant regardless of how top marginal rates vary. I'd posit that it is a spending, rather than a revenue, problem.

Interesting to know but revenue as a percentage of GDP isn't the same track as taxes paid as a percentage of income. The population has been growing since the 50s and
the population of people making big money has also been growing since the 50s so as
taxes on the rich come down, revenue has remained about the same but this doesn't address my question.

NASA, a great national source of American pride, is a shell of it's former self because
of spending priorities that have little to do with Americans paying the lowest taxes in
60 years. It that what you're trying to say?

In other words, two big tax cuts at precisely the moment we enter into war in two countries and acts of war in four other countries becomes a national debt issue only because it is a spending problem?

Please note the BHO budget repeals the Bush/Obama taxcuts on the wealthy and adds the Obama "millionaires" tax and yet there are still $1,000,000,000,000 + deficits as far as the eye can see.