Airline Pilot Forums

I voted NO it was a concessionary contract.
7576FO

You beat me to it Chris!

PROUD of my AA Pilot Group! Fights On!

73
NO Voter

Nicely done, gentlemen!

nicely done guys.
thanks. this vote will benefit both AA pilots and all other airline pilots.

"APA MEMBERS REJECT TENTATIVE AGREEMENT: Shortly after voting ended at noon Central Daylight Time today, Ballot Point certified the following results in the tentative agreement vote: 2,935 pilots voted for the tentative agreement, and 4,600 pilots voted against the tentative agreement. Therefore, the tentative agreement is rejected."

https://public.alliedpilots.org/apa/AboutAPA/APAPublicNews/tabid/843/ctl/ArticleView/mid/1228/articleId/1625/APA-members-reject-tentative-agreement.aspx

Great job guys. Good luck moving forward.

Nice job folks. Glad you took a stand!

Especially after this.


Key revenue measure rises at American Airlines - Yahoo! Finance (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/key-revenue-measure-rises-american-154944681.html)

Horton Has a Headache!

Outstanding! Nicely done AMR pilots

Excellent guys/girls. I think you made the best decision.


Kinda scary that 2935 still voted for though.:confused:

Nice work!
So now what? TA 2.0 and finish voting the same time as the FA vote closes?

Great job taking a stand AA pilots!

Thank you from the RJ FO's.

Beers on me.

Kinda scary that 2935 still voted for though.:confused:

That's due to the weak-Richards that make up ORD and DFW. Don't lump the rest of us in with them. I think they are all curled up in the corner in a fetal position sucking their thumbs right about now.

Domicile In favor Percent Against Percent
Boston 85 37% 141 62%
Washington D.C. 76 34% 146 66%
Dallas/Fort Worth 937 51% 913 49%
Los Angeles 228 28% 590 72%
New York 301 23% 1005 77%
Miami 533 35% 1002 65%
Chicago 626 59% 439 41%
St. Louis 149 29% 364 72%

Nice work!
So now what? TA 2.0 and finish voting the same time as the FA vote closes?

Now what? Judge rejects the contract. AA imposes the original term sheet, without the pay, scope, and BK claim improvements from the TA. Beyond that is anybody's guess. I really doubt AA will come back to the table.

Not saying this was the wrong vote ... if I were an AA-er, not sure how I would have voted. However, this is definitely the path with more questions than answers ...

They ain't gonna impose the 1113. They know that the wheels will fall off with an 1113 and we will go the way of Eastern.

My guess is an LBFO-style agreement tweaked a little if the judge abrogates.

If he DOESN'T abrogate - we will get something better than the LBFO. To which I will continue voting NO on unless we get in the vicinity of DAL/UAL plus better scope.

Although I admire your courage guys; however, sometimes you have to choose your battles carefully. Sometimes you have to take what you can and fight the other day. I'm sorry, but I think you just gave AMR more ammunition to weaken your troops.

Although I admire your courage guys; however, sometimes you have to choose your battles carefully. Sometimes you have to take what you can and fight the other day. I'm sorry, but I think you just gave AMR more ammunition to weaken your troops.




Do you fly for AA? Did you read the LBFO? Do you have a United States passport? Get out of my country if you cannot fight a battle!

We read it, we understand choosing our battles carefully. We voted NO for us, and for the profession.

People like you make me sick. We the pilots of AA took a 23.5% pay cut and lost lots of work rules and benefits to keep AA out of BK then. Turns out it was BS.
AA has $6.5 B this was a BK out of convienience to gut the employee union contracts.
7576FO

"APA MEMBERS REJECT TENTATIVE AGREEMENT: Shortly after voting ended at noon Central Daylight Time today, Ballot Point certified the following results in the tentative agreement vote: 2,935 pilots voted for the tentative agreement, and 4,600 pilots voted against the tentative agreement. Therefore, the tentative agreement is rejected."

https://public.alliedpilots.org/apa/AboutAPA/APAPublicNews/tabid/843/ctl/ArticleView/mid/1228/articleId/1625/APA-members-reject-tentative-agreement.aspx


I thought AA had more active pilots than that.

Although I admire your courage guys; however, sometimes you have to choose your battles carefully. Sometimes you have to take what you can and fight the other day. I'm sorry, but I think you just gave AMR more ammunition to weaken your troops.

Who the hell are you? I really hope you work for a regional and keep working for a regional indefinitely. We don't need your type at mainline. Thank you American pilots. I don't know what's going to happen now, but I think the odds are pretty good that your future will be better than it would have been if you voted in that piece of crap.

It's highly likely that AMR will give a better deal to the pilot group rather than go to the judge. The 1113(c) process is very likely to be won by APA.

From another RJ FO thank you AMR pilots for showing some serious backbone in turbulent times.

As long as you don't voluntarily give anything up (by voting in something), you have a right to keep fighting. If anything is taken from you, you can fight for it back. If you vote it away, it's gone forever.

Just a quick thank you from your frendly neighborhood CAL pilot. Very nice. You guys really showed what a pilot group with a backbone looks like. You didn't cave on SCOPE like those DAL wusses. They certainly have made life miserable for our negotiations. Thanks again to APA pilots holding strong!!

Thanks guys! It was a 6 year duration for the TA. The way AA negotiates, it'd been a 10 year contract.

Our contract was amenable May 2008. AA opened early on us in Sept 2006. We had been negotiating since 2006!

Many of us would have retired under this concessionary TA in the next 10 years.

AA73, Eaglefly and myself and others here, were outspoken NO voters.

To have voted in this concessionary contract would have been bad for EVERYONE!

Congrats on voting down that POS....

I'm glad to see a Pilot group with some ball's..

You management Sucks.....DELETED ACL65PILOT

Congratz to the AA pilots, from a beat down US pilot...I wish our guys had the BRASS cojones that your group has displayed. Beers on me if we cross paths. Fight the good fight..

Thanks guys! It was a 6 year duration for the TA. The way AA negotiates, it'd been a 10 year contract.

Yep, we've been living with our UAL BK contract for 9 years+. It's great to see a pilot group with some self-respect and the balls to say hell no to the BS that AMR was trying to sell you.

Now what? Judge rejects the contract. AA imposes the original term sheet, without the pay, scope, and BK claim improvements from the TA. Beyond that is anybody's guess. I really doubt AA will come back to the table.

Not saying this was the wrong vote ... if I were an AA-er, not sure how I would have voted. However, this is definitely the path with more questions than answers ...

I take it that YOU would have accepted any POS TA just to keep your job??
Had you been on the property, you probably would have voted for LOA 93!!....pathetic..

Although I admire your courage guys; however, sometimes you have to choose your battles carefully. Sometimes you have to take what you can and fight the other day. I'm sorry, but I think you just gave AMR more ammunition to weaken your troops.





Do you fly for AA? Did you read the LBFO? Do you have a United States passport? Get out of my country if you cannot fight a battle!

We read it, we understand choosing our battles carefully. We voted NO for us, and for the profession.

People like you make me sick. We the pilots of AA took a 23.5% pay cut and lost lots of work rules and benefits to keep AA out of BK then. Turns out it was BS.
AA has $6.5 B this was a BK out of convienience to gut the employee union contracts.
7576FO
+1...pathetic!! That guy probably sits to take a wizz...

It looks like the AA pilots have the stones the DAL pilots did not.

A pilot group actually sacked up!? [cheers!]

+1...pathetic!! That guy probably sits to take a wizz...Like this?: Tim and Eric Awesome Show Great Job!: I Sit Down When I Pee - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54t0iyp_udc)

Well done on this vote. Looks like only two domiciles voted for it.

"Only two pilot bases voted in favor of a proposed agreement with American Airlines, including Dallas/Fort Worth.

Here is a break down of how the different pilot bases voted.

Domicile
DFW for 51% against 49%
ORD for 59% against 41%"


Read more here: http://blogs.star-telegram.com/sky_talk/allied_pilots_association/#storylink=cpy

It looks like the AA pilots have the stones the DAL pilots did not.

38% of us DAL guys have stones. AA's are just bigger:D

38% of us DAL guys have stones. AA's are just bigger:D

And it's interesting how the breakdown on the base vote isn't "classified information" kept from the AA pilots like it is at DAL.

Nu

It would be interesting to see the seniority of the guys who voted yes.

I thought AA had more active pilots than that.

4,600 voted no = 61%
2,900 voted yes = 31%
600 didn't vote = 8%

Total 8,100

Well done guys!

de leted.. too much testosterone in here

As a member of the most limp d**ked group of pilots in the country, I'd like to say thank you to all of the AA pilots that voted "No". Makes me proud to think there are still some pilots that have spines.

Nicely done, AA pilots! From everything I've read, it sounds like you learned from other airlines like United who thought voting yes would lessen the blow that management had planned on dealing anyway. This way, any imposed agreement only lasts until you exit bankruptcy, not 6-10 years.

I do have a question for someone who knows the RLA. If the judge abrogates the contract, do the pilots of AA not have the right to withdraw their services in the form of a strike? Otherwise, it starts to sound a lot like slavery to me. If someone tells me that they're not going to pay me a fair wage and I have no choice but to show up and fly my trip, how is that not a form of slavery? I know the individual can resign, but could the pilot group as a whole give the company the finger?

As a member of the most limp d**ked group of pilots in the country, I'd like to say thank you to all of the AA pilots that voted "No". Makes me proud to think there are still some pilots that have spines.

Really had no choice. Even the union admitted during the road shows it was punitive and a gross "over-reaching". It will be interesting to see how then plan develops from here on out, but I see little hope for AA unless something dramatic alters the present suicidal course.

No major corporation can expect to be viable, let alone competitive with a well of acid as their most critical employees. Only a true megalomaniac would think they could force that to work.

Thanks AA. I respect your pilot group for standing up and doing what was right for our profession, families and passengers. Maybe this is the high water mark of unethical and immoral CEO compensation/robbery and your no vote the beginning of a fair return to the people actually do the work. Best of luck. --a regional pilot

Do you fly for AA? Did you read the LBFO? Do you have a United States passport? Get out of my country if you cannot fight a battle!

We read it, we understand choosing our battles carefully. We voted NO for us, and for the profession.

People like you make me sick. We the pilots of AA took a 23.5% pay cut and lost lots of work rules and benefits to keep AA out of BK then. Turns out it was BS.
AA has $6.5 B this was a BK out of convienience to gut the employee union contracts.
7576FO

:D Awesome! Stay strong my friend!

As a member of the most limp d**ked group of pilots in the country, I'd like to say thank you to all of the AA pilots that voted "No". Makes me proud to think there are still some pilots that have spines.

You must be US Air east? lol Good job AA I hope it works out in the end.

You must be US Air east? lol Good job AA I hope it works out in the end.

Ha... ok, 2nd most. :D

That's a pretty healthy margin against it too. I've had a few AA guys in the jumpseat lately and they've been ready to go to the mat. Lots of respect for APA tonight.

Good job to all of you.

They ain't gonna impose the 1113. They know that the wheels will fall off with an 1113 and we will go the way of Eastern.

My guess is an LBFO-style agreement tweaked a little if the judge abrogates. If he DOESN'T abrogate - we will get something better than the LBFO. To which I will continue voting NO on unless we get in the vicinity of DAL/UAL plus better scope.

Don't be so sure; it could easily happen. Of course, then no AA pilots will show up for work, right?

Horton/Hale & Co. may not have been bluffing when they said it was an LBFO...they might be done negotiating.

Time will tell, I guess.

Way to go AA pilots.

Don't be so sure; it could easily happen. Of course, then no AA pilots will show up for work, right?

Horton/Hale & Co. may not have been bluffing when they said it was an LBFO...they might be done negotiating.

Time will tell, I guess.They can't stop negotiating, it's a condition of the bankruptcy process and required by law. AMR management is acting improperly during this 1113(c) process, and they will lose it if they keep it up.

Great job AA pilots. I wish DALPA had your backbone.

To those of you from other airlines, thank you for the support!

We still have a long way to go and the road only gets steeper. Undoubtedly, we are looking at a scenario where there will be the most dire of threats will be made by the company and pilots fired (hostages, or as known at AA, "dead cats"). I pray the group can take the heat and not cave before we get the results we desire.

For those of you that don't know about the company's "offer", to put it briefly, it was not only punitive, but was an incredibly overreach/land grab. There were significant sections of the contract such as our reserve system that were reduced to one sentence. i.e. "The reserve system will be replaced by a reserve optimization system". Whatever that means. In other words, much of the contract would have been a dream "fill in the blank" contract for management to exploit for 6-10 years.

Onerous work rules and the new C-scale for the 319 would have meant that the pilots of AA would only be dragging down everyone else in the long run. Imagine, we could merge with a "discount airline", and their pilots would be taking a significant pay CUT!

I am hoping that APA has made a sharp turn from a political organization to good old fashioned organized labor. This path of capitulation has to end yesterday. A once proud career has become a job. We need to turn the ship around.

Your continued support is appreciated. At some point, you may be asked to do something to show your support for our fight. Remember, you will be helping raise the bar for the profession and will also be helping yourself in the long run.

I find it extremely interesting that anyone would even attempt to put this BK TA and the DAL contract on the same level. They're apples to oranges. DAL pilots weren't voting on a 6 year deal (try 1/3 of that) that included massive reductions in sick time, work rules, & scope.

You must be US Air east? lol Good job AA I hope it works out in the end.


Good for you AA pilots. You should be proud.

Cactusone, take your worn out crap to a new thread. You, the west, would be the last pilot group to take a stand.

I do have a question for someone who knows the RLA. If the judge abrogates the contract, do the pilots of AA not have the right to withdraw their services in the form of a strike? Otherwise, it starts to sound a lot like slavery to me. If someone tells me that they're not going to pay me a fair wage and I have no choice but to show up and fly my trip, how is that not a form of slavery? I know the individual can resign, but could the pilot group as a whole give the company the finger?

The Northwest flight attendants are the only group to ever push it that far.

Here's the answer they got:

We hold that Section 2 (First) of the Railway Labor Act forbids an immediate strike when a bankruptcy court approves a debtor-carrier's rejection of a collective-bargaining agreement that is subject to the Railway Labor Act and permits it to impose new terms.


Here's the entire ruling if you're interested:

IN RE: NORTHWEST AIRLINES CORPORATION, Docket Nos. (http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd-circuit/1034838.html)

Another RJ guy here saying thanks. Well done!

I'm a DFW guy, voted NO, and I'm ecstatic. Remember, DFW is hyper-senior... even the FO's are old, and many of them simply wanted another 5 or 8 years to sail into retirement without a lot of stress and angst.

Screw that noise. I'll be damned if I go quietly into the night while AMR is rolling in cash and lining their pockets.

Worst case scenario... well, the line ops will devolve into chaos, killing revenue, and oh yes, I think a large number of pilots might become "depressed", requiring a year or three being grounded on Prozac at a minimum.

I find it extremely interesting that anyone would even attempt to put this BK TA and the DAL contract on the same level. They're apples to oranges. DAL pilots weren't voting on a 6 year deal (try 1/3 of that) that included massive reductions in sick time, work rules, & scope.
I agree this has nothing to do with Delta's contract, this is about management's abuse of the bankruptcy system to exploit pilots and the unions that submit to it.

The Northwest flight attendants are the only group to ever push it that far.

Here's the answer they got:

We hold that Section 2 (First) of the Railway Labor Act forbids an immediate strike when a bankruptcy court approves a debtor-carrier's rejection of a collective-bargaining agreement that is subject to the Railway Labor Act and permits it to impose new terms.


Here's the entire ruling if you're interested:

IN RE: NORTHWEST AIRLINES CORPORATION, Docket Nos. (http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd-circuit/1034838.html)Not true, the Mesaba pilots had their contract rejected and were barred from striking.

They can't stop negotiating, it's a condition of the bankruptcy process and required by law. AMR management is acting improperly during this 1113(c) process, and they will lose it if they keep it up.

"Negotiating" is a loose term. They could agree to sit in a room staring at the APA and playing with their smart phones and technically be negotiating.

APA CA Bates just resigned. And the fun begins.

You must be US Air east? lol Good job AA I hope it works out in the end.

Good for you AA pilots. You should be proud.

Cactusone, take your worn out crap to a new thread. You, the west, would be the last pilot group to take a stand.

I agree, don't we have enough threads of West guys calling East guys names? Besides, of all the names you can call US Airways pilots, I don't think "Limp-D*****", would be a good choice. There's plenty of erections to go around if you mention 'DOH' in PHL (or Nicolau in PHX).

Bravo!, from a hopeful prospective AA pilot.

Just a quick thank you from your frendly neighborhood CAL pilot. Very nice. You guys really showed what a pilot group with a backbone looks like. You didn't cave on SCOPE like those DAL wusses. They certainly have made life miserable for our negotiations. Thanks again to APA pilots holding strong!!

Yes, coming from CO, the perennial bottom feeder of major airline contracts, I can see how our pay rates being almost 50% higher than yours made your negotiations miserable. :rolleyes:

Best of luck to the AA folks!

Well done my AA brothers! Fight the good fight! I hope we at Unical can vote the same way soon.

Thank you AA "no" voters.
There is no reason your contract should be any less than DAL or UAL.

Thank you AA "no" voters.
There is no reason your contract should be any less than DAL or UAL.

To be honest they don't have the same synergies or economies of scale as their larger counterparts. DAL and UAL will always have about a 10% boost on American. APA can demand more (and rightly should) but it won't come easy.

I know pilots will hate me for saying this, but it's the truth. If American pilots demand the same pay as DAL/UAL, it puts AMR at a disadvantage.

Just a quick thank you from your frendly neighborhood CAL pilot. Very nice. You guys really showed what a pilot group with a backbone looks like. You didn't cave on SCOPE like those DAL wusses. They certainly have made life miserable for our negotiations. Thanks again to APA pilots holding strong!!

Ahh yes, your 83' hires are the epitome of the "anti-wuss"....... :rolleyes:

APA CA Bates just resigned. And the fun begins.

Holy crap.

What is the general reaction from the pilot group? It seemed like he did a lot of good and made progress with AA. This is a crucial time and electing a new leader is the last thing to be focusing on.

Well done my AA brothers! Fight the good fight! I hope we at Unical can vote the same way soon.

You don't even know what you are voting on yet!!

Holy crap.

What is the general reaction from the pilot group? It seemed like he did a lot of good and made progress with AA. This is a crucial time and electing a new leader is the last thing to be focusing on.

That was my thought, too. I read the last message he sent out endorsing a Yes vote and I thought it was a half hearted endorsement. He laid out the pros and cons of voting quite well and it seemed pretty balanced.

I do think this will be good for the AA pilots. Management, be it Horton or anyone else, will have to bring more to the table at some point.

Holy crap.

What is the general reaction from the pilot group? It seemed like he did a lot of good and made progress with AA. This is a crucial time and electing a new leader is the last thing to be focusing on.

Hi Flyby,

The general consensus is that he did the honorable thing by resigning. He knew it wouldn't serve the best interests of the pilots by staying after heavily promoting the LBFO, so he resigned. Showed a touch of class, although I',m sure he was under a lot of pressure from the BOD.

New APA Interim President, F/O Keith Wilson. Smart guy, tended to be concessionary in the past... with all this unity behind him, I'm hoping he fights the good fight.

To be honest they don't have the same synergies or economies of scale as their larger counterparts. DAL and UAL will always have about a 10% boost on American. APA can demand more (and rightly should) but it won't come easy.

I know pilots will hate me for saying this, but it's the truth. If American pilots demand the same pay as DAL/UAL, it puts AMR at a disadvantage.

Not our (ailine pilots) problem. Is it the same job? Does a software developer at yahoo make the same as one at google? Labor is not a variable cost. Like fuel it is fixed.

AA no voters......

THANK YOU AND BRAVO!

James is duly impressed.

"Negotiating" is a loose term. They could agree to sit in a room staring at the APA and playing with their smart phones and technically be negotiating.
There's "Negotiating".....Then there's "Negotiating in GOOD FAITH".

Under your premise above, I guess having both sides locked up in a Centerport Conference Room having a "C.J." would constitute "negotiating"? I would hope that mediated/supervised/BK monitored talks WERE found to be that of "Good Faith", as opposed to the 'monkey motion' that UCH's Mgt has orchestrated during our talks.

Either way, congrats on a strong showing by way of the recent APA vote. The CAL/UAL Pilots are behind you all on the stand.

Not our (ailine pilots) problem. Is it the same job?

I don't believe it is the same job. If it was, it would just as easy to get hired at Delta/United as Virgin America.

Does a software developer at yahoo make the same as one at google?

Probably not. I'm sure the pay varies by how successful the business they work for is. Personally, I think this example contradicts your argument.

Labor is not a variable cost. Like fuel it is fixed.

Unions love to say this, but it simply isn't true. If all the companies had to pay the exact same for pilots, Delta/United (and maybe SW) would be raking it in. After a while they would get so fat that they would start to move deeper into competitors' hubs and bleed them dry.

Who do you work for? 38% voted no. I've been on strike, voted no for every concession since 2004 at NWA. Sad part is that our contract is the best out there outside of luv, fdx and ups. Unless you are there, I suggest a big dose of **** until your group can do better. Negotiating a contract against the garbage that lcc, ual and cal have was not easy.


Nice job AA. Too bad DAL didn't have the.....

Nice job AA. Too bad DAL didn't have the EDIT to be the professionals they think they are.

Yes, we'll just have to settle for having a much better contract and a lot more money.

Nice job AA. Too bad DAL didn't have the EDIT to be the professionals they think they are.

Yeah,

Reducing outsourcing by 15-25%, increasing pay by double digits, improving retirement benefits, decreasing contract medical plan costs by 19% while increasing benefits, improving work rules, improving LTD and sick policies, getting a short duration, getting it done 7 months early and NOT waiting 1-5 years with zero gains.......

How pathetic and lacking in "professionalism".:rolleyes:

AMR overreached on their gutting of APA and it backfired big time in round one.... we shall see who wins round 2.... Hope APA is on the winning side every round, I think AMR will have a very tough time getting the judge to gut the CBA that much, too many examples of "smaller" givebacks in BK for AMR to get carte blanche.

Hi Flyby,

The general consensus is that he did the honorable thing by resigning. He knew it wouldn't serve the best interests of the pilots by staying after heavily promoting the LBFO, so he resigned. Showed a touch of class, although I',m sure he was under a lot of pressure from the BOD.

New APA Interim President, F/O Keith Wilson. Smart guy, tended to be concessionary in the past... with all this unity behind him, I'm hoping he fights the good fight.

Thanks for the viewpoint aa73. Stay strong!

Now what? Judge rejects the contract. AA imposes the original term sheet, without the pay, scope, and BK claim improvements from the TA. Beyond that is anybody's guess. I really doubt AA will come back to the table.

Not saying this was the wrong vote ... if I were an AA-er, not sure how I would have voted. However, this is definitely the path with more questions than answers ...

I ain't an AA guy. However, why is it always the assumption that the judge will impose the company's original term sheet? 1113c requires that both parties negotiate in good faith and that if the company's "last/best offer" is refused, the judge can take action on the original 1113c motion. If the judge imposes the term sheet, that is retaliatory since the entity in protection has already indicated that it is satisfied with the financial aspects of the TA.

IMO, a judge would be hard pressed to not impose the TA as the court ordered work agreement. While there is no direct precedent on the issue, there are many other examples that can be used to draw an analogy on how the judge should proceed within the guidlines of the US code.

That is my opinion which is worth 2 cents. But, the one good thing that could come from a court imposed work order is that the day the company exits BK, the pilots enter section six negotiations because they have no negotiated CBA under the definitions of the RLA.

Frats,
Lee

I don't think comparing our No vote should be lumped in with criticizing DAL pilots. There was good and bad with the DAL TA... it passed, and they now have a contract worth shooting for, in our case. Same with the UAL TA, if it is similar to DAL's.

Our No vote was really based on one thing: if we have to have a concessionary contract forced on us, we'd rather die standing on our feet than survive living on our knees.

Thanks for all the support.

I don't think comparing our No vote should be lumped in with criticizing DAL pilots. There was good and bad with the DAL TA... it passed, and they now have a contract worth shooting for, in our case. Same with the UAL TA, if it is similar to DAL's.

Our No vote was really based on one thing: if we have to have a concessionary contract forced on us, we'd rather die standing on our feet than survive living on our knees.

Thanks for all the support.


All true, but the more mature and rational view you take is not as cool as insulting the DAL Pilot group.

Scoop

So if the APA strikes do we have the guts to back them up at the other airlines. I'm talking about taking a stand and making it clear that we support DAL+ contracts and will not allow the APA to lose to other carriers moving in. I know that's beyond the "rules" of the RLA which have been gutted by bankruptcy/threat of BK. Based on my opinion that only about 1/4 of people actually get what's going on and care on most issues, I think not. Anyway, I'm in, this stand is long overdue imho.

I wonder now that APA voted no. Could management give that 13.5 equity stake to the creditors committee for a stand-alone plan?

The TA was passed to the pilots and rejected the judge could still issue the term sheet. AMR would out source AA flying in code share and alliance agreements allowed in the original term sheet. Or is that impossible?

In honor of this week's event....may I present....


http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/yy34/MadDogWhisperer/Brave.jpg

Congrats to the APA pilots who voted no. Had we voted no 8-10 years ago at USAIR, UAL (me), and DAL, the industry would probably not have descended into the death spiral that it has become.

I voted no every time at UAL. If we had torpedoed UAL 9 years ago, I would probably now be a 9 year FO or Captain at another major airline in the US, making far more money than I would be as a Captain at UAL right now. Unfortunately all the ALPA represented pilots caved in to the 1113 threats that our companies used, and these threats were backed up by the ALPA cronies.

It is my belief (also worth 2 cents) that you guys finally did the right thing. I only wish we had the same cajones 9 years ago.

Section 1113 of the bankruptcy code was put into the US bankruptcy code in 1983 to PROTECT the interests of union laborers in court. It is not a threat, it is there to protect you and your interests. By voting no, you are allowing the law to be followed. I wish we had done the same. In the end, after two "voluntary" pay cuts and then voluntarily giving up our pensions, we ended up far below the companies original term sheet.

LEEDX:
I agree with most of what you said except that the judge will go by the term sheet. The judge is required by 1113 to look at the haircut that he imposed on other creditors, and make sure that if he abrogates the union contract, that it is in line with those cuts. Are there any recent precedents with pilots in recent bankruptcy proceedings? Unfortunately no. None of the rest of us in the industry had the cajones to stay in the game, and see the other guys cards, We folded.

Well done to you, the pilots at American, and good luck.

The contrast in perspective over at the TWU is interesting:

TWU mechanics contract passed by only 48 votesStar-Telegram


It was definitely a squeaker.

According to vote totals posted to Transport Workers Union Local 565's website, the mechanics contract at American Airlines passed by only 48 votes.

The vote results were 4,776 in favor and 4,728 against. The store clerks vote passed by a wide margin with 858 voting in favor and 229 voting against.

The Dallas/Fort Worth mechanics base voted 85 percent against the contract while its stores group voted 91 percent in favor, TWU local 565 said.

TWU International representative Don Videtich said this was a difficult decision for the union members.

"We wouldn't have been surprised if it would have passed by more or if it would have lost by more," Videtich said in an interview on Wednesday.

Videtich said the mechanics contract includes 15 percent pay raises over the term of the deal and lowers the employee cost portions of health insurance as well as improves the 401(k) plan.

And while the deal is still concessionary, it was a better alternative than possibly having the bankruptcy judge throw out the mechanics existing contract. Bankruptcy judge Sean Lane is expected to rule on American's union contracts on August 15.

"What would have been worse is if we go to the judge and the judge abrogates the agreement and the company imposes other terms," Videtich said. "It's something that would have been worse that what we are dealing with."

The contrast in perspective over at the TWU is interesting:

TWU mechanics contract passed by only 48 votesStar-Telegram


It was definitely a squeaker.

According to vote totals posted to Transport Workers Union Local 565's website, the mechanics contract at American Airlines passed by only 48 votes.

The vote results were 4,776 in favor and 4,728 against. The store clerks vote passed by a wide margin with 858 voting in favor and 229 voting against.

The Dallas/Fort Worth mechanics base voted 85 percent against the contract while its stores group voted 91 percent in favor, TWU local 565 said.

TWU International representative Don Videtich said this was a difficult decision for the union members.

"We wouldn't have been surprised if it would have passed by more or if it would have lost by more," Videtich said in an interview on Wednesday.

Videtich said the mechanics contract includes 15 percent pay raises over the term of the deal and lowers the employee cost portions of health insurance as well as improves the 401(k) plan.

And while the deal is still concessionary, it was a better alternative than possibly having the bankruptcy judge throw out the mechanics existing contract. Bankruptcy judge Sean Lane is expected to rule on American's union contracts on August 15.

"What would have been worse is if we go to the judge and the judge abrogates the agreement and the company imposes other terms," Videtich said. "It's something that would have been worse that what we are dealing with."

I understand as many as 200 votes were thrown out/disqulified. Sounds to me something fishy is going on in this situation. Who knows,..........if the pilots vote were that close, ours may have miraculously passed by a 50.25% marging too, but maybe the vote count was strong enough against that whomever couldn't throw that many votes out to change the outcome, so it had to stand.

It's not that I don't trust certain people and entities, it's just that...........well, I don't trust them. :rolleyes:

What we know from the past is that capitulating to management's demands does not pay off for pilots- it does not make things better in the long run. In fact, cooperation from labor has produced only more aggressive tactics from management. Management will never "play fair" and they quickly overlook given concessions, returning countless times for another bite of the apple. However, even in the worst of bad times, oil companies have stood firm on their price- and what has management done? They have paid the asking price. I am grateful that a union has finally taken a stand, I know how hard it was to do so. Be warned- Parker is not different from Horton. Don't be sucked in to the East/ West saga smoke screen. Parker played both unions and got exactly what he wanted. This is a strategy that has worked so well that there is no doubt that he will use it again. Parker may smile and whisper in your ear while he is doing it, but make no mistake- his goals are the same as Horton's.

But, the one good thing that could come from a court imposed work order is that the day the company exits BK, the pilots enter section six negotiations because they have no negotiated CBA under the definitions of the RLA.

Frats,
Lee

APA has been negotiating under Section 6 since July, 2006. Where's the advantage?

As you point out, they probably won't have a CBA. That opens a whole lot of doors in the merger/fragmentation department for "other" interests to exploit.:eek:

Hope it works out well for them.

APA has been negotiating under Section 6 since July, 2006. Where's the advantage?

As you point out, they probably won't have a CBA. That opens a whole lot of doors in the merger/fragmentation department for "other" interests to exploit.:eek:

Hope it works out well for them.

Not likely. If Lane abrogates, AMR may impose changes in the contract it wants. Changes to language in anything involving mergers was not part of the 1113 or the term sheet. Additionally, we're still a recognized union and McCaskill-Bond is there. As far as fragmentation, that would likely be a controlled by someone other then the pilots. If pilots didn't go with airplanes, I think you'd see a mass exodus in a short period of time and thus significant loss of worth of the transferred asset during the transition. They could sell the MIA to Delta, but Delta would have to train a couple of thousand pilots within months or inherit an empty ghost town of a terminal and planes.

I think if we ever get to that point or AMR threatens such, it would start a race for the exits that might be uncontrollable. Besides, I think the most value both short and long-term is in a merger and not fragmentation and there is one guy out there (yes, a snake as well) that already has all of AA's labor lined up and once he's done looking over the books, very likely the best POR unless AMR can convince everyone they can move AA forward without the pilots on-board.

Remember, if that somehow occurs and we exit BK like that, it's no longer chapter 11, but section 6 and hopefully if the creditors shoot craps with that plan, they'll understand it will be a different game.

Little late but better then never. Thank You for sacking up and taking a stand! If pilots would just stick together and show more AA pilot balls we would ALL be in a better spot! The industry as whole will be better after this!

Little late but better then never. Thank You for sacking up and taking a stand! If pilots would just stick together and show more AA pilot balls we would ALL be in a better spot! The industry as whole will be better after this!

Some perspective -> It's not "late". The APA group has taken a more hardline position since 2006. They've gotten nothing for it. Future events at American may validate the benefit of their stance, but so far they don't have a gain they can point to and say, "Our AA pilot balls got us that!"

I hope they kick butt. I hope they get some healthy paybacks from their sacrifices and a pile of equity in the new company. They need something to show for their position.

Some perspective -> It's not "late". The APA group has taken a more hardline position since 2006. They've gotten nothing for it. Future events at American may validate the benefit of their stance, but so far they don't have a gain they can point to and say, "Our AA pilot balls got us that!"

I hope they kick butt. I hope they get some healthy paybacks from their sacrifices and a pile of equity in the new company. They need something to show for their position.

Most here don't see this as a tanbark fight or believe this has anything to do with the size of our testicles. It's simply about achieving something competitively fair and equitable considering our situation and that of the competition.

So far, we don't believe we've been treated either fairly or equitably and thus the beat goes on....................

Most here don't see this as a tanbark fight or believe this has anything to do with the size of our testicles. It's simply about achieving something competitively fair and equitable considering our situation and that of the competition.

So far, we don't believe we've been treated either fairly or equitably and thus the beat goes on....................

Very well said!

APA has been negotiating under Section 6 since July, 2006. Where's the advantage?

As you point out, they probably won't have a CBA. That opens a whole lot of doors in the merger/fragmentation department for "other" interests to exploit.:eek:

Hope it works out well for them.

Wow. The "concern" from the Delta camp makes me all misty eyed. I can't help but notice how many of you guys keep asking about what the chances are of AA being broken up. I hope our continued existence isn't inconveniencing you or delaying your MIA bid. Perhaps I can fetch you a lobster bib to catch some of that drool?

Wow. The "concern" from the Delta camp makes me all misty eyed. I can't help but notice how many of you guys keep asking about what the chances are of AA being broken up. I hope our continued existence isn't inconveniencing you or delaying your MIA bid. Perhaps I can fetch you a lobster bib to catch some of that drool?

You misunderstand. He isn't drooling over your job, he is trying to show you how to protect your own job. Emotional decisions based on a hatred of your management team ain't the way. Keep your contract, no matter how bad you think it is. Delta exited bankruptcy in April 2007 and now we are on our second post-bk contract. Keep your contract, keep your job, work to rebuild in the near future. Don't **** away your future just to give the finger to management.

You misunderstand. He isn't drooling over your job, he is trying to show you how to protect your own job. Emotional decisions based on a hatred of your management team ain't the way. Keep your contract, no matter how bad you think it is. Delta exited bankruptcy in April 2007 and now we are on our second post-bk contract. Keep your contract, keep your job, work to rebuild in the near future. Don't **** away your future just to give the finger to management.

I can't wait until AA emerges from Ch 11, merges with US, buys DL and finally gets the DPA off the ground.

Bottom line: AA's bankruptcy wasn't like the rest of ours. It certainly wasn't like US's. US really was bankrupt.

Just like the recent DL contract vote, it was up to the AA pilots to decide their fate. I think they made the right decision, but no matter what happens there will be people arguing about it for years to come. It's done and if we end up merging with AA I will be proud of their actions and proud to join their ranks.

... merging with AA I will be proud of their actions and proud to join their ranks.

If it is a merger, you will not be joining their ranks.

If it is a merger, you will not be joining their ranks.

How so DCA A321 FO?

How so DCA A321 FO?

Dude, it is not "their ranks." They are not acquiring us.

Dude, it is not "their ranks." They are not acquiring us.

I'm too old to be a dude. That would be my son.

We don't know who will be acquiring whom, but since AA has about 50% more cash than US, I think that makes "acquire" a nebulous term.

Just like US/AW, US/AA would most likely be a merger, not an acquisition.

I can't wait until AA emerges from Ch 11, merges with US, buys DL and finally gets the DPA off the ground.


Just..... sad.

Just..... sad.

In case your couldn't tell, that was a late night attempt at humor.

In case your couldn't tell, that was a late night attempt at humor.

Yeah, sorry. I hadn't had enough coffee yet.

I can't wait until AA emerges from Ch 11, merges with US, buys DL and finally gets the DPA off the ground.

Lol. Why don't ya just throw World peace in there too. The odds of either are about as good as a politician without a personal agenda. :D

PS-I know you're joking. Hence the :D

Wow. The "concern" from the Delta camp makes me all misty eyed. I can't help but notice how many of you guys keep asking about what the chances are of AA being broken up. I hope our continued existence isn't inconveniencing you or delaying your MIA bid. Perhaps I can fetch you a lobster bib to catch some of that drool?

Me personally, I don't want anything to do with any part of AMR. Their employees are already going through enough. I wish them the best. I personally haven't been through a BK, but I've heard the stories from guys I've flown with. It doesn't sound fun. :(

Keep your contract, no matter how bad you think it is.

There you have it.

There you have it.

Not sure whether you are agreeing with Alfa or not, but time will tell who's right...

Lol. Why don't ya just throw World peace in there too. :D

You mean 'Metta World Peace'?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-oQIWdwc1Pyk/T5WW8EYy9nI/AAAAAAAAAJ8/qmKFG_SZFAw/s1600/mwp+elbow.jpg

If the term sheet gets imposed how many AA pilots have the ability to put in their notice?

Say for example 10% decide to leave, will AMR have enough pilots to even move the planes?

TC

If the term sheet gets imposed how many AA pilots have the ability to put in their notice?

Say for example 10% decide to leave, will AMR have enough pilots to even move the planes?

TC
No one will leave, without a pay out they will all stay. History at other carriers confirms this, besides they are going to need to furlough.

No one will leave, without a pay out they will all stay. History at other carriers confirms this, besides they are going to need to furlough.

They are gearing up for recalls, also AMR managment numbers are worthless, they said 400 furlough as well as 2,000+ pilots needed due to the new FTDT. What is it then, you need to furlough or increase your pilot group by 25% due to rules and not taking account attrition and age 65 rule in a few months.

Is this true?

APA Hotline, Aug 15

JUDGE SEAN LANE GRANTS AMR MANAGEMENT’S MOTION: United States Bankruptcy Judge Sean Lane issued a ruling today that grants AMR management’s application for authority to reject the Allied Pilots Association-American Airlines Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Your APA legal team is currently reviewing the document. Upon completion of our review, if appropriate we will file an appeal of Judge Lane’s decision.

We regard AMR’s intent to reject our contract as an admission of failure—failure to reach a mutually acceptable agreement with a vital employee group, and in a broader sense, failure to avoid bankruptcy and to present a credible vision for our airline’s future. Any future for this airline must include a consensual, industry-standard contract that properly recognizes our pilots’ sacrifices and our critical role in the operation of American Airlines.

Your APA leadership is exploring and pursuing all legal avenues in response to today’s ruling, including the pending appeal regarding the inapplicability of Section 1113 to the 2003 pilot collective bargaining agreement. Your APA leadership will issue a follow-up message later today.

Is this true?

APA Hotline, Aug 15

JUDGE SEAN LANE GRANTS AMR MANAGEMENT’S MOTION: United States Bankruptcy Judge Sean Lane issued a ruling today that grants AMR management’s application for authority to reject the Allied Pilots Association-American Airlines Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Your APA legal team is currently reviewing the document. Upon completion of our review, if appropriate we will file an appeal of Judge Lane’s decision.

We regard AMR’s intent to reject our contract as an admission of failure—failure to reach a mutually acceptable agreement with a vital employee group, and in a broader sense, failure to avoid bankruptcy and to present a credible vision for our airline’s future. Any future for this airline must include a consensual, industry-standard contract that properly recognizes our pilots’ sacrifices and our critical role in the operation of American Airlines.

Your APA leadership is exploring and pursuing all legal avenues in response to today’s ruling, including the pending appeal regarding the inapplicability of Section 1113 to the 2003 pilot collective bargaining agreement. Your APA leadership will issue a follow-up message later today.

APA sent a blast this morning that stated the judge will rule this afternoon electronically, and that management will meet with APA early next week to discuss the implementation of the 1113. So it sounds like management knows how the judge will rule as of early this mornig!

Is this true?

APA Hotline, Aug 15

JUDGE SEAN LANE GRANTS AMR MANAGEMENT’S MOTION: United States Bankruptcy Judge Sean Lane issued a ruling today that grants AMR management’s application for authority to reject the Allied Pilots Association-American Airlines Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Your APA legal team is currently reviewing the document. Upon completion of our review, if appropriate we will file an appeal of Judge Lane’s decision.

We regard AMR’s intent to reject our contract as an admission of failure—failure to reach a mutually acceptable agreement with a vital employee group, and in a broader sense, failure to avoid bankruptcy and to present a credible vision for our airline’s future. Any future for this airline must include a consensual, industry-standard contract that properly recognizes our pilots’ sacrifices and our critical role in the operation of American Airlines.

Your APA leadership is exploring and pursuing all legal avenues in response to today’s ruling, including the pending appeal regarding the inapplicability of Section 1113 to the 2003 pilot collective bargaining agreement. Your APA leadership will issue a follow-up message later today.

Great question. I looked on the APA site and all I found was this:

Judge to rule on contract late this afternoon (https://public.alliedpilots.org/apa/AboutAPA/APAPublicNews/tabid/843/ctl/ArticleView/mid/1228/articleId/1667/Judge-to-rule-on-contract-late-this-afternoon.aspx)
posted on August 15, 2012 09:06
APA INFORMATION HOTLINE
This is APA Communications Director Gregg Overman with the APA Information Hotline for Wednesday, Aug. 15.
JUDGE TO RULE ON CONTRACT LATE THIS AFTERNOON: Judge Sean Lane has yet to issue his ruling regarding the rejection of our contract. Your APA leadership has been told that the judge will electronically file his ruling late this afternoon. Management has indicated that they will meet with APA early next week in order to discuss the implementation of the 1113 term sheet.
APA Phone Watch (817-302-2395) will be manned from 8 a.m. to 4 p.m. Central for the remainder of this week should you have questions or concerns.
That’s it for now. Fly safe and maintain your professionalism. Thanks for checking this hotline.

APC225 posted it on the CAL thread... don't blame me, I am just spreading the rumor :)

I got the same e-mail T from a friend there. We shall see. Got it at 1220.

Sent it to a few Reps to see if they would refute it. Nothing on their site.

Looking at this blast, it looks like it is the template that was set up for a rejection and somehow got sent out by mistake. The time is not on there, so imo, it just looks like something they prewrote.

No one will leave, without a pay out they will all stay. History at other carriers confirms this, besides they are going to need to furlough.

or recall or maybe furlough or.................................

You misunderstand. He isn't drooling over your job, he is trying to show you how to protect your own job. Emotional decisions based on a hatred of your management team ain't the way. Keep your contract, no matter how bad you think it is. Delta exited bankruptcy in April 2007 and now we are on our second post-bk contract. Keep your contract, keep your job, work to rebuild in the near future. Don't **** away your future just to give the finger to management.

I'll be waiting for your humble retraction anytime now.....

Thankfully APA pilots have a spine. Well done!

I guess bean and tomahawk can now stop posting on here.

Fellow Pilots,

As you know, United States Bankruptcy Judge Sean Lane issued a ruling late this afternoon denying AMR management’s motion to reject the Allied Pilots Association-American Airlines Collective Bargaining Agreement, marking a rare Chapter 11 victory for labor.

In his ruling, Judge Lane cited management’s stated intention of furloughing 450 pilots and the sweeping scope changes they proposed as areas where they did not make a sufficiently compelling case.

For many months now, we’ve emphasized that AMR management has overreached in their desire to extract more concessions than are warranted to support their reorganization plan in this bankruptcy. The bankruptcy process is designed to level the playing field with the competition ― not to bury us underneath it. Clearly management went well beyond what is the industry standard for bankruptcy contracts, and the judge recognized this in his decision today.

A large number of APA volunteers and advisers share credit for this favorable turn of events, including the lawyers at APA General Counsel’s office (including Kathy Krieger, Darin Dalmat, Danny Rosenthal, David Dean and Edgar James), APA’s in-house legal team (including Chuck Hairston), Fil Agusti and Joshua Taylor at Steptoe & Johnson, and Andrew Yearley and Ben Tisdell of Lazard. We would also like to thank the following individuals for their help drafting testimony and then testifying as APA’s principal witnesses in the case: Mr. Yearley, Negotiating Committee Chairman FO Neil Roghair, FO Jim Eaton (APA’s representative on the Unsecured Creditors’ Committee), APA Director of Industry Analysis Allison Clark and Technical Analysis and Scheduling Committee Chairman FO Larry Rosselot. Captain Mickey Mellerski, Captain Dave Brown, Captain Bill Boyd, FO Greg Shayman (who was instrumental in drafting APA’s declarations and analyzing management’s declarations), Scope Committee Chairman FO Tim Hamel, FO Tim Daudelin, FO Per Lovfald, FO Dave Durham, and Government Affairs Committee Chairman Captain Bob Coffman also deserve credit for volunteering to help the attorneys work through many of the difficult issues in the case. To these individuals and many others who have worked tirelessly on our behalf during the past several months, well done.

In voting down the tentative agreement, our membership asked the toughest question a labor union could ask in Chapter 11 restructuring: “what is behind that ‘1113 door?’” We now have a near-term answer—a significant setback for management, another set of 1113 court hearings and another round of bargaining.

The elation I feel today is tempered somewhat by my abiding frustration with AMR management for the many misjudgments they have made to deliver us to this juncture. AMR’s Chapter 11 filing was precipitated by AMR management’s actions—and all too often, their inaction—not by a collective bargaining agreement our pilots negotiated in good faith.

Does any right-minded person believe that erasing 60 years’ worth of bargaining history would result in a brighter future for American Airlines? Does anyone think that securing permission from a bankruptcy judge to reject our pilots’ contract constitutes effective employee relations? The answer is, once again, a resounding “no” aimed squarely at AMR management.

Your APA leadership is committed to securing a consensual, industry-standard contract that respects your sacrifices and recognizes your true worth as professionals. If AMR management one day secures the ability to impose arbitrary terms and conditions, they too will have to live with the consequences of their actions. One of those consequences will be to reinforce for all the fact that AMR’s bankruptcy isn’t just financial. Instead, what we’re seeing is a management devoid of constructive solutions to our airline’s problems, which should alarm everyone with a stake in the outcome of American Airlines’ restructuring.

As for how you can help to ensure the necessary course change, maintain professionalism at all times and do not let emotion influence your decisions. Management may be eager to engage in “hostage-taking”—don’t oblige them.

Please note that your APA leadership has dedicated additional resources to ongoing Strike Preparedness Committee operations, beginning with the resumption of Phone Watch.
If you have a question or concern, contact Phone Watch between 8 a.m. and 4 p.m. Central Daylight Time at tel. 817-302-2395. Also, we will be scheduling a new round of Family Awareness meetings across the system. Be on the lookout for meeting announcements and make plans to attend a Family Awareness meeting in your area.

Once again, with your decisive vote against the tentative agreement, you had the courage to ask, “What happens next?” I’m likewise certain that you have the necessary fortitude for the fight that’s certain to come.

So, while management has been denied the opportunity for now to shred our Green Book, I submit that the answer to that question is straightforward: what must happen next is appropriate recognition of our profession and our vital role in the airline’s operation.

In unity,

Keith Wilson
APA President