Airline Pilot Forums

Silver Airways flight lands at wrong W.Va. airport in 1st week of service; no one injured - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/travel/silver-airways-flight-lands-at-wrong-wva-airport-in-1st-week-of-service-no-one-injured/2012/08/08/8fa20f14-e190-11e1-89f7-76e23a982d06_story.html)

Silver Airways flight lands at wrong W.Va. airport in 1st week of service; no one injured - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/travel/silver-airways-flight-lands-at-wrong-wva-airport-in-1st-week-of-service-no-one-injured/2012/08/08/8fa20f14-e190-11e1-89f7-76e23a982d06_story.html)

Lake Charles all over again. And again. All Saabs.

Lake Charles all over again. And again. All Saabs.

Ironically they probably wish they had some ex Colgan guys in that cockpit.....

Ironically they probably wish they had some ex Colgan guys in that cockpit.....

hopefully it was the ex-Colgan FO I flew with in the CRJ several weeks ago who did nothing but bash Pinnacle FO's because as a 2 year FO his career expectations have been ruined. He left for Silver.

Lol. It's funny because no one was injured. What did they expect hiring 200 hour pilots?

hopefully it was the ex-Colgan FO I flew with in the CRJ several weeks ago who did nothing but bash Pinnacle FO's because as a 2 year FO his career expectations have been ruined. He left for Silver.

Haha I should specify hopefully it was a Dulles based ex Colgan guy.

Lol. It's funny because no one was injured. What did they expect hiring 200 hour pilots?

Not worth wasting my time.

Pretty ignorant comment to make considering the captain I believe came from another regional airline.
so he had 1555 hours

Maybe or maybe more doesn't matter.

And in a few months..... here comes the wind and snow !

The Ckb based silver captain was a former biz ex and eagle pilot for almost 20 years. Silver planes have an fms and those airports look Nothing alike. Wasn't a former Colgan, but wow.

Silver pilots, are you required to tune the relevant navaid for a visual approach?

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/comment/4/2010/01/504a1c1537eac29872d8861ae7d2d510/340x.gif

Mistakes will be made, hopefully these guys (and the rest of us) will learn from it and move on.

Silver pilots, are you required to tune the relevant navaid for a visual approach?

A'int that the law? or is that your point?

Silver planes have an fms and those airports look Nothing alike. Wasn't a former Colgan, but wow.At night they're quite similar. Especially with Fairmont being on the LOC for 21 into CKB. Curious if they have the performance to get off a 3,200ft runway in the summer (go at night maybe?)

Lol. It's funny because no one was injured. What did they expect hiring 200 hour pilots?

Wrong Way Landings By Commercial Airliners (http://www.thirdamendment.com/wrongway.html)

Not just 200hr pilots, this has happened to experienced crews as well.

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/comment/4/2010/01/504a1c1537eac29872d8861ae7d2d510/340x.gif

Mistakes will be made, hopefully these guys (and the rest of us) will learn from it and move on.

Thank you.....+1

At night they're quite similar. Especially with Fairmont being on the LOC for 21 into CKB. Curious if they have the performance to get off a 3,200ft runway in the summer (go at night maybe?)

Not even close. They don't even face the same heading. One has different markings and a damn river at the end. Ckb has a vor on the field. Mistakes will be made, I may make the next one. But these two airports are nothing alike.

A'int that the law? or is that your point?

Honest question. IDK what's in their manuals. We are required to tune a navaid.

Honest question. IDK what's in their manuals. We are required to tune a navaid.

I thought it was an FAA requirement, regardless of the wx, i.e. if you're cleared to land and the runway has an ILS, it's gotta be tuned. Time to dig out the FAR.

I thought it was an FAA requirement, regardless of the wx, i.e. if you're cleared to land and the runway has an ILS, it's gotta be tuned. Time to dig out the FAR.

Let us know what you find.

Not even close. They don't even face the same heading. One has different markings and a damn river at the end. Ckb has a vor on the field. Mistakes will be made, I may make the next one. But these two airports are nothing alike.CKB has a VOR on the field, huh? Strike one...

River at the end? You think you're going to see that at night? Strike two...

Different markings? At night? Go back to watching your FMS...

CKB has a VOR on the field, huh? Strike one...

River at the end? You think you're going to see that at night? Strike two...

Different markings? At night? Go back to watching your FMS...

I've been assigned and executed the River Visual 19 in DCA at night.

Let us know what you find.

Well, judging from that response, and the response of Senior Skipper, I guess it is not. It was something I heard from a newly rated commercial guy many moons ago. Crud, everything I know is wrong. :)

CKB has a VOR on the field, huh? Strike one...

River at the end? You think you're going to see that at night? Strike two...

Different markings? At night? Go back to watching your FMS...

relax sally. nobody is attacking anyone. ckb colocated? nope, i was wrong there.

cant see the river at night? um yeah actually you can. Its not hard to pick out at all. Using the CKB and MGW VORs, landmarks on the ground and basic SA would tell you that it is not the right airport in this scenario. I'll stick with my FMS because it is just another tool to give me SA in flight. But from someone who has flown into CKB probably 200 times over the last five years in a lesser equiped saab, my point still stands. These two airports dont look the same. im not here to pass judgement on the crew. who knows what their level of experience was or what was going on in the cockpit. At least they got it stopped before they overran. Good job to them.

Well, judging from that response, and the response of Senior Skipper, I guess it is not. It was something I heard from a newly rated commercial guy many moons ago. Crud, everything I know is wrong. :)
For nearly 20 years I never could have landed at a field with an ILS :D

USMCFLYR

I've been assigned and executed the River Visual 19 in DCA at night.

Bazingaa...

USMCFLYER

I know of at least one Tomcat that came aboard the wrong ship. They didn't notice it until the RIO said, "aw shucks, we came off of 67, this is 64" or words to that effect.

Funny thing about the ILs or RNAV approaches at KCKB, they all end at a runway. I'm fine with visuals, but these two mistakes are the resukt of guys jumping to conclusions and not paying attention to details. There is another posting elsewhere about setting the heading bug within a couple of degrees of the assigned and calling it OK or gripping about mil pilots be anal about those details--sweat the details and the big stuff will take care of itself.

GF

USMCFLYER

I know of at least one Tomcat that came aboard the wrong ship. They didn't notice it until the RIO said, "aw shucks, we came off of 67, this is 64" or words to that effect.

Funny thing about the ILs or RNAV approaches at KCKB, they all end at a runway. I'm fine with visuals, but these two mistakes are the resukt of guys jumping to conclusions and not paying attention to details. There is another posting elsewhere about setting the heading bug within a couple of degrees of the assigned and calling it OK or gripping about mil pilots be anal about those details--sweat the details and the big stuff will take care of itself.

GF
There is a story in a book written by one of the first TomCat pilots (the name escapes me at the moment) similar to that - landing on the wrong ship. I think his story is Vietnam era though. That plane didn't get off the wrong carrier without some special attention though!
Good book btw - but you realize that in today's environment that guy never would have made it through Primary.
My how times change - sometimes not for the better. :o

USMCFLYR

Edit:
'Feet Wet'
Paul Gillcrist was a navy carrier pilot for almost thirty years, from the early days of flying propeller planes from straight deck carriers, to the days of high-tech, lethal "teen" jets and supercarriers. In his remarkable career - from "nugget", to competent jet aviator, to test pilot, to Vietnam fighter pilot, to air wing commander, to head of "Fightertown, USA," Gillcrist flew the F-8 Crusader, F-4 Phantom, F-14 Tomcat, and a myriad of other tactical aircraft. As part of his absorbing stories
http://books.google.com/books/about/Feet_Wet.html?id=76sGAAAACAAJ

Let us know what you find.

Turbine powered aircraft must remain at or above the glide slope/glide path until necessary to land. It's in the AIM.

relax sally. nobody is attacking anyone. ckb colocated? nope, i was wrong there.

cant see the river at night? um yeah actually you can. Its not hard to pick out at all. Using the CKB and MGW VORs, landmarks on the ground and basic SA would tell you that it is not the right airport in this scenario. I'll stick with my FMS because it is just another tool to give me SA in flight. But from someone who has flown into CKB probably 200 times over the last five years in a lesser equiped saab, my point still stands. These two airports dont look the same. im not here to pass judgement on the crew. who knows what their level of experience was or what was going on in the cockpit. At least they got it stopped before they overran. Good job to them.


!CKB 08/002 CKB NAV ILS RWY 21 GP OTS

Also, looking at the approach plate, how do you know where the city is? Or the river? Or any other "landmarks" for that matter? Also, the other airport is 9 nm away and not depicted in the 10 nm ring.

Ought to be interesting getting the Saab out of there. From Airnav...


RY 23 HAS 100 FT DROP OFF, NE END.
RY 5 HAS +30 FT HILL AT SW END.

USMCFLYER

guys jumping to conclusions and not paying attention to details. There is another posting elsewhere about setting the heading bug within a couple of degrees of the assigned and calling it OK or gripping about mil pilots be anal about those details--sweat the details and the big stuff will take care of itself.

GF

I like to carry a "jump to conclusions" mat when I fly haha

Turbine powered aircraft must remain at or above the glide slope/glide path until necessary to land. It's in the AIM.

What about airports without either?

What about airports without either?

Glide path could imply a VGSI. Either way, if there is an electronic means of aligning yourself with the runway centerline/to the airport, use it. Mistakes will be made, back yourselves up to reduce the possibility of them happening.

Even using the nearest VOR and referncing the radial and dme would help. Not judging at all, just saying a way for us to avoid or reduce mishaps. This like other incidents are case studies for us to learn from, not to criticise. A lot of what we benefit now in the way of safety measures and procedures are due to mishaps that became case studies for us to learn and benefit from.

Glide path could imply a VGSI. Either way, if there is an electronic means of aligning yourself with the runway centerline/to the airport, use it. Mistakes will be made, back yourselves up to reduce the possibility of them happening.

That's what I meant what if there is no VGSI.

That's what I meant what if there is no VGSI.

I don't know what the "official" answer is but, I think common practice to use the visual cues of the 1000footers (square, rectangle, flat) to remain on the proper glide path.

To the crew, good luck. I hope things work out for you.

USMCFLYER

My brother was in VF-211 , embarked on the old Connie (the 64in this tale)in the IO during the Iranian Hostage "Crisis". Some hotshot from the Pentagon or Pearl (LtCmdr, I think) came out to make a report on things. He goes off, in section, from one of the other carriers. In the haze, he's leading for some reason, finds a ship, enters the pattern at a correct part of the cycle. BUT, gets waved off approaching the ramp, RIO notices the wrong number on the island but doesn't get the word before his wingman, well practiced on a 9-month tour of blue water ops, traps. OOPS, when they look at the island and a crowd rushing their Tomcat.

They were "brigged" for the night and the other carrier sent over a ration of ice cream in trade. My brother says all the stickers and graffiti made it look like a NYC subway when shot off the next afternoon.

GF

Yes, Gilchrist's book is a classic, should be retitled "Great Ejections I Witnessed"

They were "brigged" for the night and the other carrier sent over a ration of ice cream in trade. My brother says all the stickers and graffiti made it look like a NYC subway when shot off the next afternoon.

GF

Yes, Gilchrist's book is a classic, should be retitled "Great Ejections I Witnessed"

Can't remember which book I read this in, but an a/c had to make an unplanned landing at a "rival" squadron's field, the crew fully expected to have their a/c "tagged". However, the head maintenance guy noticed how dirty the arriving plane was. He instructed his crew to clean the a/c until it looked factory new. His maint crew objected until the chief clarified, clean exactly 1/2 of the a/c. Some things speak for themselves!

relax sally. nobody is attacking anyone. ckb colocated? nope, i was wrong there.

cant see the river at night? um yeah actually you can. Its not hard to pick out at all. Using the CKB and MGW VORs, landmarks on the ground and basic SA would tell you that it is not the right airport in this scenario. I'll stick with my FMS because it is just another tool to give me SA in flight. But from someone who has flown into CKB probably 200 times over the last five years in a lesser equiped saab, my point still stands. These two airports dont look the same. im not here to pass judgement on the crew. who knows what their level of experience was or what was going on in the cockpit. At least they got it stopped before they overran. Good job to them.You mentioned that CKB had a VOR on the field. That brought your credibility into question, in my opinion. As someone who has been into CKB 201 times over the past 5 years, I'm saying I can see where a crew on their inaugural flight, being asses and elbows, could screw things up quickly. Sure, they didn't look for the airport beacon on the west side of the field. Sure, they didn't notice the lack of instrument approach lighting. I have flown over Fairmont many times with an overcast/moonless sky and never seen the river. I have broken out on approach into CKB and thought we were high, only to double check the instruments and realize we were over Fairmont and not Clarksburg. Does it absolve the crew from doing their jobs? No. My point: It's easy to see how a chain of events could build up and culminate with them landing at the wrong field. Luckily they didn't go off the end. Hopefully this will serve as a reminder for everyone pay attention and speak up if something doesn't seem right.

The Ckb based silver captain was a former biz ex and eagle pilot for almost 20 years. Silver planes have an fms and those airports look Nothing alike. Wasn't a former Colgan, but wow.

If it is who I think it is, this guy was finishing up his sim in MSP while I was there for during systems. If my memory is correct, I think his last commercial flying job was 7 years ago.

Wrong Way Landings By Commercial Airliners (http://www.thirdamendment.com/wrongway.html)

Not just 200hr pilots, this has happened to experienced crews as well.
Looks like several landings occured at military bases :eek:oops !



Ally

Looks like several landings occured at military bases :eek:oops !



Ally

Biggs AFB near ELP.....

There is another posting elsewhere about setting the heading bug within a couple of degrees of the assigned and calling it OK or gripping about mil pilots be anal about those details--sweat the details and the big stuff will take care of itself.

GF

Are mil guys "anal" about things like verifying, crosschecking, looking at things like runway length and general airport picture when landing?

If there were those details to be sweated and the big stuff taken care of, maybe the C17 guys recently wouldn't have made a boo boo.

Crap can happen to ANYBODY, it's proven itself to NOT have bias against training, background, experience level, etc.

Can't speak for the C-17, but runway length, orientation, and desired landing spot were briefed in my squadron. If not touched down by the briefed position, it was a no-fault go. It can happen to anyone, but that doesn't make it blameless. I'll bet the -17 crew were downgraded, too.

We did have a crew make an accidental attempt to land at the wrong airport in Macon, the briefing procedure saved 'em. Co-pilot said "the ILS doesn't look right".

GF

Wrong Way Landings By Commercial Airliners (http://www.thirdamendment.com/wrongway.html)



Out of these dozens of wrong airport landings, what is the tower saying to the inbound aircraft? "Cleared to land", (but I don't see you anywhere, I guess you're there?). I realize some of these were austere locations, or maybe outside of official Tower hours, but otherwise, shouldn't a Tower controller be wondering where the airplane is, that he just cleared to land? And maybe pimp the pilot as to his whereabouts?
Maybe I'm expecting too much, but the McDill C17 got me wondering the same thing - how do you miss that?

Out of these dozens of wrong airport landings, what is the tower saying to the inbound aircraft? "Cleared to land", (but I don't see you anywhere, I guess you're there?). I realize some of these were austere locations, or maybe outside of official Tower hours, but otherwise, shouldn't a Tower controller be wondering where the airplane is, that he just cleared to land? And maybe pimp the pilot as to his whereabouts?
Maybe I'm expecting too much, but the McDill C17 got me wondering the same thing - how do you miss that?

You are correct. The tower is supposed to see the aircraft out the window or on radar before giving a landing clearance, otherwise the aircraft is to be advised, "Not in sight from the tower."

As in this case these landings usually happen at uncontrolled fields and the field is mistaken for the destination airport. The crew calls it in sight and the en route controller says change to advisory radar services terminated or change to advisory and you close out upon landing.

HIFLYER

Nice try, but I seriously doubt that was the explanation of the C-17--Tampa Approach by that point must have handed them over to tower-controlled MacDill AFB. Probably tower cleared them to land with the Buddha in sight, crew dived for Peter Knight. Rumor I heard 24+ hour crew duty day might be involved, but fatigue will b ruled out. I guarantee it.

GF