Airline Pilot Forums

I'm really interested in seeing real examples of hourly rate and YTD pay at various airlines.

I'm interested in visualizing the value of workrules in a CBA and how it relates monetarily from airline to airline with REAL numbers. If you want to post things like avg days off, PTO accrual, and retirement plan details that would be great too.

Please specify: Airline, Union, Seat, Equipment, Longevity, and then Hourly Pay Rate/ YTD GROSS income from your 7/31 stub.

Please refrain on this particular thread from bashing because honestly were all here to try and make things better for our profession... Hard data only/ no opinions!

I'll start:

Allegiant Air
7yr CA MD-80
No Union
As of 7/31, $74,439 YTD
132/hr
Avg. 14 days off a month




(last year 7/31 YTD was 91,351) yes that's a 16,912 pay cut from last year for me)

Hope to see comparisons from others!

Thanks,

I'd suggest sending PMs because he is serious.

Otherwise it's like standing on a fuel reserve and begging for matches.

That would be fine too... But honestly, this would be an interesting comparison I think. More interesting for all to see.



I'm not trying to be all idealist here, but maybe if pilots worked together to establish our fair market value we would make progress both personally and on a larger scale in the industry.

I don't care if you work for Delta or Cape Air.. We're all "the talent" and we're all in this together. A message board can surely function as a useful resource and not just a semi-entertaining slugfest. When $hit is being flung around, the only result can be a bunch of us standing around covered in $hit.

Why flame? Let's make this thread useful!

If you're more comfortable with PM, I can (if you wish) de-identify the data and just post the numbers.

That would be fine too... But honestly, this would be an interesting comparison I think. More interesting for all to see.



I'm not trying to be all idealist here, but maybe if pilots worked together to establish our fair market value we would make progress both personally and on a larger scale in the industry.

I don't care if you work for Delta or Cape Air.. We're all "the talent" and we're all in this together. A message board can surely function as a useful resource and not just a semi-entertaining slugfest. When $hit is being flung around, the only result can be a bunch of us standing around covered in $hit.

Why flame? Let's make this thread useful!

Not flaming here, but how do you propose this information you want is going to fix anything in this industry? I believe there is a link above where you can find all the pay rates for all the equipment at just about every operator. So what purpose does our July 31 pay stub serve, other than as poo to be flung? The information is already available.

I think it goes to establish the difference work rules (or lack thereof) make in take home pay.

APC has a great resource in showing pay/hr. It doesn't show what you actually get paid.

Exactly.

Things like overrides, duty rigs, pto/vacation, per diem differentials, training and deadhead pay, reserve guarantee variance, line value averages, line value fluctuations, profit sharing, and pay protections often drastically alter what one might "calculate" from simple hourly rate/guarantee numbers.

I can't really think of a better way to show this value.

In the interest if full disclosure the reason I'm asking is because one of the big conversation pieces in our "union decision" currently underway at AAY is how hourly rates are merely the tip of the iceberg.

My point about workin together in the interests of our industry is simply that this data (I believe) will help us make the choices to achieve our goals. Perhaps it may help others at JetBlue or Virgin America also better demonstrate this value in the interest of making improvements through collective bargaining. No more no less.

Thanks

Since ALPA takes a percentage of our salary, wouldn't they be able to give you most of the information you want?

That would probably give better results than asking people to post their financial information on a pubic forum.

Via PM and with permission to repost anonymously:


Fedex
8yr F/O, MD-11
ALPA
7/31 YTD gross: $109,804
$163.83/hour + $7/hr Int'l override on all flights
Avg 16 days off a month (110 for 7 months)

Last year $108,160

This is a good example... 8 year FO on par to make ~164,000 in 2012 with an hourly rate of 163.xx. I make 132 and Hour, but will only earn ~112,000 this year. Workrules. Makes all the difference.

Thanks keep'em coming..

Raul;
While I think I understand what you think you are trying to do, the info you get isn't going to be of any value except as a Johnson measuring contest.

When we were in negotiations a few months ago, I asked SWA pilots to post their pay info (thanks to the pilots who participated). Their workrules really reward extra work.

Anyway, the audience on APC is too small to sway a vote. SWA's workrules (IMO) are the gold standard if you are looking for narrowbody high W-2. Also, (IMO) fedex's workrules are the gold standard for everything else.

Thanks Scambo. I agree it won't be a deciding factor, but having some raw data in hand can't hurt.

Fortunately I think we are gonna pull it off this time.

This is a great idea for a thread. There is definitely more to compensation than just hourly rate and I learned at my last airline just how much work rules and soft pay can change your W-2.

It would probably also help to know whether a person is line holder or reserve, and how many hours they have flown up to this point of the year. Just a suggestion to help make the numbers that much more meaningful.

Another anonymously transcribed one:

Year 1 E190 FO at JetBlue
Non union
$49/hr (was $47 until a month or so ago)
YTD 7/31 $40,829.31
Average days off 13

Yes considering "soft-costs" I lost so far this year about ~13 hours of flight pay to required training events (we get 80 bucks a day for training) and lost 8 hours to bid line schedule conflicts (un pay protected at G4)

Plus line values are down in my base from 2011 and we took a pay band cut in the spring.

Year 1 E190 FO at JetBlue
Non union
$49/hr (was $47 until a month or so ago)
YTD 7/31 $40,829.31
Average days off 13
__________________

You have to got be "F&%$ing" kidding me....my fellow G4 pilots will get that one. 1 year Jet Blue FO who makes almost 30 dollars less an hour than me! Look at mine and weep......BTW I voted yes...suprise

Year 4 MD-80 FO at AAY
Non Union
$77/hr
YTD 7/31 $44,800
Average days off 17....below guarantee for last 3 months

Year 1 E190 FO at JetBlue
Non union
$49/hr (was $47 until a month or so ago)
YTD 7/31 $40,829.31
Average days off 13
__________________

You have to got be "F&%$ing" kidding me....my fellow G4 pilots will get that one. 1 year Jet Blue FO who makes almost 30 dollars less an hour than me! Look at mine and weep......BTW I voted yes...suprise

Year 4 MD-80 FO at AAY
Non Union
$77/hr
YTD 7/31 $44,800
Average days off 17....below guarantee for last 3 months

The JB guy is averaging 125 hours per month. He is on pace to make over $70,000 in his 1st year. I checked with my friend who has been there 4 years and he said he wont make much more than that this year. Something doesn't add up with his claim.

Year 1 E190 FO at JetBlue
Non union
$49/hr (was $47 until a month or so ago)
YTD 7/31 $40,829.31
Average days off 13
__________________

You have to got be "F&%$ing" kidding me....my fellow G4 pilots will get that one. 1 year Jet Blue FO who makes almost 30 dollars less an hour than me! Look at mine and weep......BTW I voted yes...suprise

Year 4 MD-80 FO at AAY
Non Union
$77/hr
YTD 7/31 $44,800
Average days off 17....below guarantee for last 3 months



And so it begins...:rolleyes:

The JB guy is averaging 125 hours per month. He is on pace to make over $70,000 in his 1st year. I checked with my friend who has been there 4 years and he said he wont make much more than that this year. Something doesn't add up with his claim.

40k is his gross, so for 8months that is an average of crediting just under 100hrs/mo considering premium pay.

The 190 staffing has been ridiculously low, and I am sure he was getting lots of soft pay from days when they need emergency coverage type stuff.

40k is his gross, so for 8months that is an average of crediting just under 100hrs/mo considering premium pay.

The 190 staffing has been ridiculously low, and I am sure he was getting lots of soft pay from days when they need emergency coverage type stuff.

actually it's for 7 months, "YTD thru 7/31" and of course it's gross. It if was net it would be an even more ridiculous claim :cool:

$40,829.31 / $47 / 7 months = 124+

actually it's for 7 months, "YTD thru 7/31" and of course it's gross. It if was net it would be an even more ridiculous claim :cool:

$40,829.31 / $47 / 7 months = 124+

Woops! didnt catch that 7/31 part, damn yea thats some serious credit. Im not even close to his figures when I look at my paycheck dated 2 days ago

1st year VX FO
started first part of Jan finished training March

$44.00
$23,551 as of 7/31
17 days off a month
been trying to fly 85+ a month

Remove per diem. That would explain JetBlue guy.

Via PM:


2 year DAL DC9 FO
47,700 @ 81 per hour (before the new TA raise)
+ 6463 in company money in ret. fund
appx 145 hours so far this yr / mostly RSV @ 12 days off
-------------------------------------------------
last year 1yr pay @ DAL DC9 FO
(had training through march so a little skewed)
32,200 @ 58 an hour
+ 3794 company ret. money
AVG 14 days off line from april - july ( 370 hours during those months)

Via PM

Virgin America
2nd Year FO
$65 hr
YTD $38,000
17-18 Days off a month

Response from the JEtBlue guy:

That was YTD gross and did NOT count per diem. I was a line holder for all but 2 months of that and average 105 or so credit per month living in base. One guy got it... RSA accounts for nearly 12-16 hours of most months due to low staffing. People are doing the math wrong when they come up with 125 hours..they forget every hour over 78 is paid at 150%. I fly way to much and do not plan to fly as much second year. This much flying was to fill a gap from my last years CA pay to year one FO pay.

I think its very interesting. Now if I was not embarassed enough to post my information...

I think this is a great idea for a thread- thanks for coming up with it Raul Duke.

Via PM

US Airways
1yr E190 FO
USAPA
As of 7/31, $25374
42/hr
11 days off/mo

Via PM

Delta 75/76 FO, topped out at >12 year rate. 129/hr plus 4/hr intl ovrd until 7/1 then 134 plus 4.50 with new TA. Intl ovrd only applies to actual international hours flown.

On reserve 4 months, never broke 70 hr gaurantee. Line holder 3 months, 4 weeks of vacation. Worked hard in line holder months, hardly worked at all reserve months. 12 days off in reserve months.

Flight pay so far-76,300.

Other compensation...profit sharing, per diem, company retirement contribution-21,900ish.

324 actual block hours flown.

Via PM

DAL
5 yr F/O, MD88
ALPA
7/31 YTD gross: $64,193
$100.17/hr (107.17 as of July 1, but haven't really been paid on that rate yet- you can edit/post that how you wish)

16-17 days off a month, (I don't like to work any extra.

Last year 7/29 $62,286 line holder and there is also $8352 of company contribution in my 401k that does not require any match on my end. Haven't flown a "premium pay" trip of any kind in over three years

Via PM

Jetblue
7 yr 320 CA
154/hr
Reserve
YTD 98,390
7/31

I was asked to post the following:

HAL Mar hire B767 FO
Take home pay- $13,500.00
Of that per diem was- $2,140.00
Pay rate is $36.00. Per diem is $2.50 on the mainland- higher anywhere else we fly that I’ve been to
Fly an average of 40 + hrs/month. 12 days off/month minimum on reserve
Family medical coverage is $54.00 per paycheck (paid twice per month
Company contributed $1600.00 to 401K
ALPA

@ Raul Duke
The numbers have been rounded slightly (less than 1%) in an attempt to further de-identify myself. Hope they still help

I was asked to post this as well.

Alaska
6th yr FO
$107/hr
I live in base
Bid 2 months of reserve at 79 hour guarantee, but flew 15 days total in those 2 months
Other months bid a line-averaged 13.5 days of duty per month
10 days of vacation
3 days of sick leave
2 days training displaced
A few days of premium pay (VSA) @ 150%

YTD gross: $83,000*

Includes PBP (annual bonus) of $7,500
80 hours of international override @ $4
A few hundred grievance pay
Flew into one of my scheduled days off while on reserve paid 250%
Per Diem @ $2.00

Additionally:

$5,700 B-Fund contribution into 401(k)
Paid $1,500 ALPA Union Dues

Hmmmmm


This thread seems a lot like those NBAA salary surveys!! I have a bridge for ya!!!

JBU
Year 2 pay, A320, $72/hour
YTD $47,000 (excludes per diem)
Ave 14 days off
Ave monthly credit 80-85 hrs/month.

jetBlue
E190 CA
8th year line holder
gross pay 116,118
reg pay82k
prem. 20k
pto payout 12k
No RSA money
680 hrs after sep. sch.
13 days off

JBU
Year 2 pay, A320, $72/hour
YTD $47,000 (excludes per diem)
Ave 14 days off
Ave monthly credit 80-85 hrs/month.

What is wrong with you? There is a EMB190 FO on 1st year pay of $47/hr who is almost making as much as you are. :D

Via PM

Delta
DC-9 Captain/Check Airman
380 Hours plus various overrides
$165 per hour
$116,000
Plus-$5,000 profit sharing and $12,700 401k

As of July 31 paycheck

Virgin America 2nd yr F.O.

90-95hrs/month and 16-17 days off

$43,000 gross

American Eagle
E-145 CA
9 year pay
YTD - swift kick to the nuts

JB A320 FO
4months @47/hr, 3months @71/hr
Reserve the whole time, avg 14 scheduled days off/mo
YTD 7/31 $36,700
Live in base and flown 201hrs total, hell yea :D

What is wrong with you? There is a EMB190 FO on 1st year pay of $47/hr who is almost making as much as you are. :D



He probably lives in base and works the system to his advantage. I, on the other hand, do no voluntary flying or picking up extra days/ RSA's on my days off.

JB
1st year E190 pay 48.50 per hour.
around 550 hours so far.
As of July 31st Gross income-34,765.25.
Second year pay now-thank god!!
Commute LAX-BOS 4 x per month.

JB
A320 FO
Year 1/2 Pay
Reserve, non-commuter, 14 days off/mo

YTD as of 7/31 - $36,600
YTD Block - 92.06

JB
A320 FO
Year 1/2 Pay
Reserve, non-commuter, 14 days off/mo

YTD as of 7/31 - $36,600
YTD Block - 92.06

Dude, I am seriously jealous of your YTD Block skills! I thought I was doing good at 200hrs.

12 yr. ups domestic
130,600
average approx. 400 block a year

Dude, I am seriously jealous of your YTD Block skills! I thought I was doing good at 200hrs.


Thanks, I try. :D

JB, year 5 320 FO. As of 7/31, 58,400 Gross (NOT including per diem; this is pay, premium pay, PTO, and night override only). Payrate is 94.60 base and 141 premium (credit hours above 78 on a monthly basis). 440 hours block, 512 hours credit, on pace to block 720/ credit 860 for the year.

This is a 5K decrease yoy, almost entirely due to far less premium time being available than last year. Also about a 700 dollar loss of night pay, due to being able to mostly avoid redeye flying vice last year. Non-JB peeps, as well as JB peeps who may not realize this, should note there is very little soft time in this breakdown.

Almost all of my soft time is generated by leg-by-leg block or better, as well as a couple of outright cancellations during IROPS, NOT our non-existant work rules. I'm generally senior enough to avoid trips that invoke our TAFB or duty-period rigs, as those are massively unproductive on the 320.

JB, year 5 320 FO. As of 7/31, 58,400 Gross (NOT including per diem; this is pay, premium pay, PTO, and night override only). Payrate is 94.60 base and 141 premium (credit hours above 78 on a monthly basis). 440 hours block, 512 hours credit, on pace to block 720/ credit 860 for the year.

This is a 5K decrease yoy, almost entirely due to far less premium time being available than last year. Also about a 700 dollar loss of night pay, due to being able to mostly avoid redeye flying vice last year. Non-JB peeps, as well as JB peeps who may not realize this, should note there is very little soft time in this breakdown.

Almost all of my soft time is generated by leg-by-leg block or better, as well as a couple of outright cancellations during IROPS, NOT our non-existant work rules. I'm generally senior enough to avoid trips that invoke our TAFB or duty-period rigs, as those are massively unproductive on the 320.

You should bid the EMB190. There is a guy on 1st year pay claiming to average over 124 hours of credit per month.

You should bid the EMB190. There is a guy on 1st year pay claiming to average over 124 hours of credit per month.

Ha! I survived 3.5 years in the right seat of that jet, won't be going back there any time soon.

I think that may have theoretically possible this summer, as thin as we've been in the 190 FO seat. IF, that is, you live in base, pick up every possible opportunity, and dislike your family (or don't have one). Assuming that info was accurate, that gravy train has come to a screeching halt come September.

You should bid the EMB190. There is a guy on 1st year pay claiming to average over 124 hours of credit per month.

Its not 124 hours of credit. We have premium pay for everything above 78 hours. What he did is very possible if living in base.

I'm not far behind...

You're being a tool.

What is Jetblue's night pay? What rigs do you have? Someone on our negotiating committee told me only captains received the night override.

What is Jetblue's night pay? What rigs do you have? Someone on our negotiating committee told me only captains received the night override.

Airline Pilot Central - JetBlue | Major-National-LCC (http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc/jetblue.html)

Everyone gets night override. Out international override is only for a select few routes to SJO, LIR and BOG. Even though we do a ton of Caribbean flying, that isn't international enough I suppose.

Night pay is 13/ hour, for flights either scheduled to operate or actually operating between 0100 and 0500 in your base time. Applies to both seats. If your flight is scheduled to touch those hours, you get the pay for the whole flight. If you're rescheduled into those hours (delays, irrops) you receive the rig only for the time that touches them, rounded up to the next hour. Clear as mud?

Its not 124 hours of credit. We have premium pay for everything above 78 hours. What he did is very possible if living in base.

I'm not far behind...

You're being a tool.

Sorry, I'm gonna wave the BS flag a bit here. Even with premium pay, that's an average credit of 108 hours every month this year. Even living in base, just not that plausible for one on reserve. Or, as I mentioned earlier, picking up every RSA, RTF, JRA, etc... The point is, most people are not able to work that hard, even if willing. It's not realistic for the vast majority.

None of the above matters. Your wife will still leave you for the pool guy or cubical nerd because he's "around all the time".

Get a prenup.

Nu

Sorry, I'm gonna wave the BS flag a bit here. Even with premium pay, that's an average credit of 108 hours every month this year. Even living in base, just not that plausible for one on reserve. Or, as I mentioned earlier, picking up every RSA, RTF, JRA, etc... The point is, most people are not able to work that hard, even if willing. It's not realistic for the vast majority.

Maybe you haven't seen all the RSA offers. I agree, not realistic for everyone here. And is dependant on staffing in your seat and how hard you want to work. But, it's actually not that hard.

I am 100% confident he is telling the truth, just working very hard.

Via PM

Delta as of July 31st pay check
2nd year 7ER FO @ 96/hour
$57,200 YTD before reserve guarantee increase
$5,900 B Plan Contribution
$2,900 Profit Sharing
$700 Shared rewards program
280 block hours so far

$112/hour in Sept
$121/hour on Jan 1st

By pM


SWA 8yr FO thru 31 July
(Live in Domicile - top 25% bidder)
$125.30 TFP / $143 Hour Equivalent
$111,000 Total Gross Pay YTD
$10,300 401K Match
$5,500 Profit Sharing

425 Block Hours YTD
17 Days off Avg/Month (worst 13, best 26)
4 Overnights Avg/Month (worst 7, best 3)[/QUOTE]

OK, here is a curve buster.

SWA Captain - Top 10%
YTD: $186,480.11
Average 16.7 days off each month

Last year YTD was higher, I'm flying less this year

You should bid the EMB190. There is a guy on 1st year pay claiming to average over 124 hours of credit per month.
unless you live in base and are a slave to FLICA this isn't feasible. In summer months I can see that kinda of credit but the rest of the year besides Dec it is just not there.

Kalitta 747-200 5YR Capt $138/hr
YTD 75,000
17 on /13 off
153 hrs flown

Its not 124 hours of credit. We have premium pay for everything above 78 hours. What he did is very possible if living in base.

I'm not far behind...

You're being a tool.

His YTD/payrate averages out to over 124 hours per month. Call it what you want but a lot of us raise the BS flag on it. I suppose you also believe all your fedex buddies who claim they never have to fly at night? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

His YTD/payrate averages out to over 124 hours per month. Call it what you want but a lot of us raise the BS flag on it. I suppose you also believe all your fedex buddies who claim they never have to fly at night? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

When I was JFK based, there was an FO who lived close to the airport. Guess who got all the greenslips. He easily credited 140hrs/month all the time - in 12 days/month.

Republic Airways
3 Yr E-170/190 F/O
3 Yr Reserve
$35.52 / Hour
As of July 31
YTD Gross....Be ready to cry.....$24,413
Average credit of 80-85 hours

And yes, unfortunately we are eligible for food stamps. Here's hoping we get a new contract soon.....but not holding our breaths.

IInd year FO at Skywest as of 07/25
36.60 an hour as of 07/25. $22 First year.
YTD 21,503.00
Hours Flown 493 as of Jan 1st - Aug 13th.
Line holder & currently commute.

Days off varies how I bid and ability to drop. April and July I was off 22 days. I try to block 90 a month.
Non Union

Republic Airways
3 Yr E-170/190 F/O
3 Yr Reserve
$35.52 / Hour
As of July 31
YTD Gross....Be ready to cry.....$24,413
Average credit of 80-85 hours

And yes, unfortunately we are eligible for food stamps. Here's hoping we get a new contract soon.....but not holding our breaths.

The sad part is theres a US Airways mainline pilot a few pages back that has the same YTD pay as you.

Pinnacle Airlines -CRJ200

Started 2nd year pay in June - $34.72/hr

11 days off on Reserve

7/31/12 YTD - $15055
w/ per diem - $18634
401k Match - $42.75

ALPA

OK, here is a curve buster.

SWA Captain - Top 10%
YTD: $186,480.11
Average 16.7 days off each month

Last year YTD was higher, I'm flying less this year

Now dat's what im tawkin bout!

Eagle 13yr emb ca
7/31/12 69,128
another 7,100 in 401k
avg 14 days off
commuter

By PM


Spirit Airlines
Top 20% FO
ALPA
As of 7/31, $52,651 YTD
82.45/hr
Avg. 15.5 days off a month

By pm

DAL MD88 6yr FO


Pay thru (8/15): $80,999 (includes two premium time trips)
Days off: 14-15/month
Retirement: $10,600
Pay rate: (with new contract beginning 7/12) $109.90

Block Hours thru end of Aug- 602

By PM

Here is one data point for you. Feel free to post without my name. Thanks for starting the thread -- Interesting info. Just goes to show that hrly pay rates are only part of the picture. Work rules, duty and trip rigs, open time pay, 401K match, etc. are huge factors in your total pay.


July ONLY
SWA
1st year F/O didn't start flying till May
for the month of July only.....
$10,279.51 total compensation

90 TFP @ 50.17 = 4515.30
50.8 TFP @ 84.65 = 4300.22 (open time at 2nd year pay rate)
401K match = 819.84
Per Diem = 644.15
worked 18 days in July and flew 79 hrs actual flight time (not counting deadheads)

By pm

MD-80 FO, 3rd year pay all year at Allegiant.
Hourly rate $73
YTD 7/31 including per diem $56,900
YTD Block 582
$2100 to my 401K match
Avg 13 days off a month. Home everynight this year except for Sim Training. I do pickup premium trips but since we are so short staffed I am always in a 30 and 7 issue so I get trips dropped and Pay Protected a lot.

OK, here is a curve buster.

SWA Captain - Top 10%
YTD: $186,480.11
Average 16.7 days off each month

Last year YTD was higher, I'm flying less this year

Holy moly! That's fantastic

Via PM

US Based Cathay Pacific
Freighter and Pax B744 FO-Year 5 all of 2012 so far

Through the end of July:

Salary:83500
Retirement(Taken as Cash): 12200
Per Diem: ~6000
Total: 101,710

~320 hrs block
15 hrs of OT(Time and a half) for the year so far.

We are not paid hourly. We get a monthly total. We also get a small amount for every hour of flight. If you fly 84 hrs, that equals 10% of monthly guarantee.

IE. Monthly salary is 10K and you fly 84hrs, you will gross 11K. Retirement is 15.5% of that total in a HKG retirement acct or in cash at pilots discretion.

His YTD/payrate averages out to over 124 hours per month. Call it what you want but a lot of us raise the BS flag on it. I suppose you also believe all your fedex buddies who claim they never have to fly at night? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

NO, It does NOT equal 124 hours per month. Can you read? Can you understand the English language?

It is approximately 108.7 hours of pay credit per month because of how OUR pay system works. OUR pay system. JetBlue's pay system.

Are you understanding that OUR pay system is different yet?

108 per month as a 190 FO is very doable right now if you are willing to work extra and pick up reserve days on days off. Get over it. You are wrong.

By PM

20 year SWA Capt, top 15% in base, living in base, flying almost exclusively 1 and 2 day trips, 15-16 days off a month - $169568 + $15770 in 401k.

By PM

2nd yr A320 FO Jetblue
$71/hr
Through 8/8 $58,000 not including per diem
650hrs block through the end of september
Live in base, junior line holder, avg 13 off, as little as 10 off to as much as 19 off

NO, It does NOT equal 124 hours per month. Can you read? Can you understand the English language?

It is approximately 108.7 hours of pay credit per month because of how OUR pay system works. OUR pay system. JetBlue's pay system.

Are you understanding that OUR pay system is different yet?

108 per month as a 190 FO is very doable right now if you are willing to work extra and pick up reserve days on days off. Get over it. You are wrong.
He is correct. I got 101 for August by only picking up 2 extra days. With the premium time he is correct

By pm


SkyWest
5yr CRJ FO
No Union
Pay Rate: $41/hr
As of 8/7: $30,589
401(k): $568 (that's getting the maximum match for my longevity)

American Eagle 15 year Capt CRJ - no social life just work work work, live in base
YTD 8/15 $78k OT was blocked for a few months avg 120 hours pay a month

Last YTD 8/15 $98k much more critical coverage pay offered avg 145 hours a month

Next year I'm just gonna sit back-- getting burnt out, if I had a family I could not do what I've been doing (maybe that's why I don't have a family)

For every poster who included their 7/31 YTD gross, hourly rate (or seniority and position, so I could find the rate), and ave. days off, I calculated the productivity, ie, the average credit (for everything - retirement, per diem, etc) for each day of work.

So, the numbers are . . .

Average credit is 6.48 hrs/day.

The winner as far and away the most productive pilot is 'Critical Mach', a 2nd year Skywest FO who averages around 10 credit hours per day, ($22K in 6 months with a $22/hr rate, and 22 days off too). Even when you account for his pay increase, it seems unreal - BS flag?

So, the real winner is indeed, our 'curve buster', 'skibikegolf', who averages around 8.9 credit hours of total compensation per day, though another SWA CA and SWA FO also clock in over 8 hours per day of credit too (no non-SWA pilot was able to do this). Then, of course, SWA also has the highest NB hourly rates in the industry. In the end, this is proof that SWA really does have an industry leading contract right now (no Fed Ex or UPS data in this thread).

For a refresher on SWA's rigs, click here (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/61622-how-much-do-swa-pilots-really-make-11.html#post1046110). The essence is, 15 days off min with a 5.5 hour min day and .61/hour duty rig. A 9 hour day blocking 5:30 is the 'break-even' of the WN rigs. Work less than 9, the min day kicks in. Work more than 9, the duty rig kicks in. Obviously, fly more than 5:30, the company has to pay you for it, whereas the first 5.5 hours are 'free', if you will.

Who's the loser?

Our 1st year EMB-190 FO. His pay rate is low, sure, but his productivity is just as bad, at around 4.4 hours/day.

Coming in a close second are our Kalitta Captain, a DL DC-9 FO, and our thread starter, 'Raul Duke', all of whom are the only others under 5 hours/day of credit (4.45, 4.56, and 4.90, respectively).

Good luck, 'Raul' in getting better productivity at Allegiant - you were @ 6.02/day last year, so, perhaps a rig would help incentive Allegiant to build higher block time trips.

Nice post sniper! That's certainly the goal! For us, things like pay protection for schedule conflicts, pay for required training events, and ultimately more efficient lines (sometimes I block 2.5 on a day trip) will make the difference.

Nevertheless I like the idea of breaking it down to daily productivity. That simplifies the task for sure

Upon further analysis of my particular situation, the reason for my significant drop in productivity between last year and this year breaks down to our Mission Mode staffing policy. I also took a pay cut because of our operating margin based "pay band" system.

Last year our company built higher value lines and had more crews in reserve in base. Last summer, the company started using Mission Mode. This is a system where they can staff an open trip (sick call etc) by sending a blast text message and email to all crews who "subscribe" to mission mode alerts. These are folks who live in domicile and ***** themselves on days off for straight pay above guarantee. It turn, the company has a small stable of pilots that cover the open flying and required reserves are significantly less. Because of this they have spread the flying out each month by building more hard lines of less value (avg of about 6-10 hours less per month). There's no need for reserved when there are locals that staff the sick calls and schedule mods. Another result of Mission Mode and more hard lines (of less value) spread across the roster is less block on block off lines. Our lines are peppered with a stray day on, stray day off and are barely if at all commutable.

The company "discourages" commuters because they are of less value to the operation as they don't pick up mission mode trips. More incentive for the company to pepper the lines with additional flying and less block-on block-off flying.

In short, without work rules and a CBA, Allegiant Management just changes the game to suit their needs at will. The pilots who pick up mission mode just enable them to continue to streamline the operation to suit the bottom line at the expense of the rest of the group. Mission mode needs to be addressed in our first CBA, and unfortunately with the precisent set, it's going to be hard to change.

By PM


Pay
Horizon FO
3rd year
$40.87 per hour
Thus far $28,300
401K- 8% match total $3,400
*

By PM

2nd year Spirit A320 FO

8/15 Ytd $52K ($3K of that is per diem)
$4200 401K
$67.54/ hour

Live in base, middle of the pack line holder.

Satisfaction: 4/5 stars

The company "discourages" commuters because they are of less value to the operation as they don't pick up mission mode trips. More incentive for the company to pepper the lines with additional flying and less block-on block-off flying.

In short, without work rules and a CBA, Allegiant Management just changes the game to suit their needs at will. The pilots who pick up mission mode just enable them to continue to streamline the operation to suit the bottom line at the expense of the rest of the group. Mission mode needs to be addressed in our first CBA, and unfortunately with the precisent set, it's going to be hard to change.

Interesting that the company puts a value on pilots who live in base. Is management openly hostile towards your union drive and making thinly veiled threats about how their business model will fail if unionization occurs?

By PM

CommutAir 3yr CA
45.08/hr
YTD as of Aug 1: $28,000 (perdiem not included)
No company 401k match

Interesting that the company puts a value on pilots who live in base. Is management openly hostile towards your union drive and making thinly veiled threats about how their business model will fail if unionization occurs?

Yes............

By PM

DAL 2nd. Yr MD-88 FO living in base.
YTD to 8/15: $52K. Company contribution: $6,700. Avg 13 days off/ month. Worked 49 of 60 weekend days, YTD

Interesting on the spirit and dal 2nd year FOs, similar equipment, same pay, DL guy has a little better retirement

Pm


6th year UPS FO

Pay - 158.12/hr
Block - 295:43
gone - 63 days (including layovers)

YTD- 108K

NO, It does NOT equal 124 hours per month. Can you read? Can you understand the English language?

It is approximately 108.7 hours of pay credit per month because of how OUR pay system works. OUR pay system. JetBlue's pay system.

Are you understanding that OUR pay system is different yet?

108 per month as a 190 FO is very doable right now if you are willing to work extra and pick up reserve days on days off. Get over it. You are wrong.


I pity the fool who thinks he's even close to being on par with his peers while busting his a$$ on his days off "trying" to get there!


JJ

I pity the fool who thinks he's even close to being on par with his peers while busting his a$$ on his days off "trying" to get there!


JJ

Don't be so sure about that. I frequently pick up an extra trip at straight pay. It is always one leg out and one leg back, with a 24, 48, or 72 hour layover in Europe. During this month's "busting my a$$" experience, I was enjoying Czech beer in Prague. Woe is me...

Don't be so sure about that. I frequently pick up an extra trip at straight pay. It is always one leg out and one leg back, with a 24, 48, or 72 hour layover in Europe. During this month's "busting my a$$" experience, I was enjoying Czech beer in Prague. Woe is me...


I should have been more specific.

I pity the fool who is compensated below average at a "certain carrier" but believes working days off for premium pay puts him in a good position relative to his peers. It doesn't!

Enjoy that beer, and the industry std benefits "our friend" doesn't know of.


JJ

I should have been more specific.

I pity the fool who is compensated below average at a "certain carrier" but believes working days off for premium pay puts him in a good position relative to his peers. It doesn't!

Enjoy that beer, and the industry std benefits "our friend" doesn't know of.


JJ

I pity the fool who is so miserable in his career and life that he has to belittle others who are not so unhappy with theirs.

You do not have to work for such a terrible company, you could leave.

Pm

Spirit Air
6-yr A320 CA
Relief line 1/3 yr, instructor 2/3 of yr
16-18 days off/mo
120/hr (not including training override)
7/31 YTD gross: 92,712 (2,529 PD incl.)
Total 401k contribution: 14,657 (8% match incl.)

CAs under 8-yr longevity on "old" contract pay scale; 17% increase in 8/13.

Pm

12 year swa ca.
Gross 142k
415 hours
Thru juli 31.

Pm

12 year swa ca.
Gross 142k
415 hours
Thru juli 31.

An actual honest answer! no need to include per diem or your 401k or profit sharing - this seems in line with what everyone knows about your contract and is very good pay - just not targeting $350/yr like some other SWA captain posts.

By PM


Pay
Horizon FO
3rd year
$40.87 per hour
Thus far $28,300
401K- 8% match total $3,400
*

I've noticed several posts that don't make sense when you do the math. I don't doubt the YTD here but the 401K seems off. 3,400 is 8% of 42,500. So does that mean you in fact put 1,700 in an account that the company matched for a total of 3,400?

Many of the legacies put 12-15% without pilot match. I think for the purpose of this exercise Raul is performing we only need the amount of the Match. Although being thrifty is a great quality and I recommend saving as much as posssible, it doesn't apply here.

Not to wave the BS flag on this one post. I think there are quite a few people that are posting retirement funds that are in fact theirs and NOT the company's.

Interesting thread though :D carry on.

SWA 5 year FO Pay 113.95 TFP

As of July 20 2012

97,000 gross on 480 hours of Block all straight time

9000 in 401K match at 9.3%

3500 in perdiem which is not included in the gross amount.

I pity the fool who thinks he's even close to being on par with his peers while busting his a$$ on his days off "trying" to get there!


JJ

Maybe you should go pick-up a trip instead of complaining that people that work more then you make more.

Pm


JB A320 FO - 7 YR

$101/hr
$104,000 YTD (7/31/12)
$5,200 401K Company Contribution
$9,700 Profit Sharing (based on 2011 Wages)
$3,100 Per Diem

Work a lot, but the system rewards it.

563 hours of block through 7/31

Pm

8 yr FDX MD-11 FO

sit a lot of reserve in base
48 days of actual work so far thru 7/31
129 block hrs
$101K pay, + per diem, pension and 7% B fund

Pm
170 CA (shuttle America)
77.08/hr on yr 8
YTD 8/15 $55,318 (3,325 is per diem)
$2,069 401K match (6%)
paid for 680 hrs, flew 501
avg 13-16 days off a month

Pm

SWA Captain
12+ years B737
SWAPA
As of 20 Jul 12 $179,255
$218/Hr
Avg 14 days off a month

Enter Content

Pm

744 F/O Living in Base
$160.36 / hr (over 12 yr pay)
Resv Guar Jan-Jun 70 hrs / mth (now its 72-80)
On Call 18 days, Off 12
YTD Gross: $98,5000
YTD Block: 63 hrs! (2 1/2 (carryout in Jul) trips since 1 Jan. Overstaffed a little bit).

I pity the fool who is so miserable in his career and life that he has to belittle others who are not so unhappy with theirs.

You do not have to work for such a terrible company, you could leave.


Who's miserable?


Just be honest with yourself and others. The compensation and benefits are below industry average. PERIOD!

If you are cool with that and absolutely love your job, that's up to you.


However, don't try to polish a turd and claim your comp and benefits are anything but below average.


Just tell it like it is. People will respect your honesty.


Peace.


JJ

SWA cap top 5%

7/20 $199,591

Non check airman

Average days off 18

Block hrs 374

Raul:

Baby steps for a contract and a union at Allegiant. What has worked for us at swa is tapping into the natural tendency of people to try to make extra money. Picking up extra trips and having less reserves benefits both the company and the pilots in the long run. One of our first pushes was to get a minimum per day for trips and training. The more productive the pilots, the less pilots they have to have on property and less costly. Good luck.

Despite the folks who scoffed the info requested in this thread as simply a schwanz-measuring contenst, as an outsider looking to break in to 121 soon I find this stuff immensely useful.

I don't get to see the impact of all the "also" stuff -- work rules, per diem, 401K, etc. -- when I simply look at the hourly rates.

It's very similar to trying to explain military pay to outsiders, where there are many different components that go together differently depending on who you are, what you do, and where you do it.

By PM
SWA 6yr FO
$94,000
$3700 per diem
15-17 days off per month
425 hrs
401k match 8700

Hacker;
You bring up a good point and I think it is a point that really hasn't been developed or looked at very thoroughly, that is the spending power comparison between military and civilian pilot pay schemes. IMO, due to the non-taxable portions of military compensation (up to all can be untaxed), military pilots transitioning to 121 will find that there is a fairly sizeable gap between their current spending power and the spending/saving power they have after they hang up the flight suit - for many years.

The upside is that, post-military, there is a corresponding increase in free-time. This is something that a former-military-striver can fill with whatever he/she wants to do (business, family, golf, fishing, etc.).

I was the guy who warned against the johnson-measuring aspect of this thread, and still am not sure I (personally) see the value in it, except to solidify my suspicion that our new contract at DAL still falls significantly short of SWA's despite what our union propogandists (try to) tell us.

The biggest tangible intangible (intentional word usage) that a pilot like you needs to be aware of when coming over to this side of the fence is current seniority list age demographics. Seniority is the whole key to a "successful" airline career. Seniority progression is determined by the age demographics of the pilots in front of you.

Despite the folks who scoffed the info requested in this thread as simply a schwanz-measuring contenst, as an outsider looking to break in to 121 soon I find this stuff immensely useful.

I don't get to see the impact of all the "also" stuff -- work rules, per diem, 401K, etc. -- when I simply look at the hourly rates.

It's very similar to trying to explain military pay to outsiders, where there are many different components that go together differently depending on who you are, what you do, and where you do it.

Couldn't agree more!

Pm

Customs and Border Protection Air Interdiction Agent (pilot)

-Pay thru 8/11 is $69336
-3.4 years longevity
-GS-13 step 2
-20 years 6C pension
-TSP match of $3467
-Family Health Ins. premium per pay period $151.20 (would love to see more health ins. costs in airlines)
-M-F schedule, morning or evening 8 hour shift
-Weekends off
-Approximately 15 days away from home this year
-Roughly 90 hours flown from fiscal year (Oct. 1st)

Just to give another type of flying info for ya...

Pm

12+ year 777 FO DAL
end of july gross $127k
avg 16-17 days off
reserve for 2 months
approx 450 block hrs.

SWA cap top 5%

7/20 $199,591

Non check airman

Average days off 18

Block hrs 374

Raul:

Baby steps for a contract and a union at Allegiant. What has worked for us at swa is tapping into the natural tendency of people to try to make extra money. Picking up extra trips and having less reserves benefits both the company and the pilots in the long run. One of our first pushes was to get a minimum per day for trips and training. The more productive the pilots, the less pilots they have to have on property and less costly. Good luck.

Holy f ********g s ****t!!

SWA cap top 5%

7/20 $199,591

Non check airman

Average days off 18

Block hrs 374

Raul:

Baby steps for a contract and a union at Allegiant. What has worked for us at swa is tapping into the natural tendency of people to try to make extra money. Picking up extra trips and having less reserves benefits both the company and the pilots in the long run. One of our first pushes was to get a minimum per day for trips and training. The more productive the pilots, the less pilots they have to have on property and less costly. Good luck.


That's all there is to it brother. Control productivity and you have your most significant labor cost under control.


JJ

SWA bottom 15% Captain

YTD gross $174,765

15 Days off per month

450hrs Block

This thread is very interesting. It sure shows the broad spectrum of pilots with respect to pay when it comes to the company you work for. You take a 6yr FO at SWA or even DAL and he is on average set to make over 100K for the year.

The same guy doing the same job with the same skills, certifications, liability, and a lot of the time the same experience, is sure to top maybe 35-40K for the year at a regional airline. And that pay rate is pretty much indefinite right now as most regional airlines are either stagnant or shrinking. And that is just flat out pay.

The QOL, flight benefits, and other crap they call compensation at regional airlines is getting kind of pathetic and most just try not to think about it. Unfortunately people are getting used to this kind of thing. As if there is no alternative. This is what management wants you to think. You are only worth a small fraction of what the other guy is worth. Kind of something wrong with that philosophy.

Hacker;
You bring up a good point and I think it is a point that really hasn't been developed or looked at very thoroughly, that is the spending power comparison between military and civilian pilot pay schemes. IMO, due to the non-taxable portions of military compensation (up to all can be untaxed), military pilots transitioning to 121 will find that there is a fairly sizeable gap between their current spending power and the spending/saving power they have after they hang up the flight suit - for many years.


I'll gladly never collect another tax free dollar if it means never spending another minute anywhere in the middle east or SW Asia. Just sayin'.

This thread is very interesting. It sure shows the broad spectrum of pilots with respect to pay when it comes to the company you work for.....

UPS and FedEx guys.....(the sound of crickets)....

We just don't want to embarrass the SWA guys. :rolleyes:


Regards,
Clutch

This thread is very interesting. It sure shows the broad spectrum of pilots with respect to pay when it comes to the company you work for. You take a 6yr FO at SWA or even DAL and he is on average set to make over 100K for the year.

The same guy doing the same job with the same skills, certifications, liability, and a lot of the time the same experience, is sure to top maybe 35-40K for the year at a regional airline. And that pay rate is pretty much indefinite right now as most regional airlines are either stagnant or shrinking. And that is just flat out pay.

The QOL, flight benefits, and other crap they call compensation at regional airlines is getting kind of pathetic and most just try not to think about it. Unfortunately people are getting used to this kind of thing. As if there is no alternative. This is what management wants you to think. You are only worth a small fraction of what the other guy is worth. Kind of something wrong with that philosophy.

What is really 'funny' (in a sick way) is that the guys who haul boxes make more than the guys flying the exact same airframes, full of humans! :eek:

No disrespect to the freight dogs, I'm glad you are being paid well, I hope we can catch back up some day. I was hauling boxes long before I got hired at DL and if I'd stayed there, I'd probably be pretty senior at UPS today....making a lot more money.

Believe me, I much prefered hauling boxes, as we used to say, "Boxes don't B!tch", but from stricktly a -liability- standpoint, who is responsible for more lives?

I don't think pay has ever been based on responsibility or liability. Isn't it based on productivity and amount of revenue generated by the aircraft you are flying?
I hate to go against the grain here- and I know I'll catch flak for it, but I think SWA pilots are overpaid. I just don't see how any airline captain is worth what, 350K a year- especially when there are thousands of us out here doing the exact same job for much less. It's not that I want to see their pay go down, I want to see the bottom come up, and maybe a more fair pay system. Flight-hour wages based on the size of aircraft is stupid IMO.

Well if you are going to base Airline Pilot pay on "Productivity" then bigger airplanes that haul more pax, more miles, are going to pay more, as they do, or did, before all the wide body airlines went bankrupt.

SW used to be near the bottom of the Major pay scale, as they only flew the smallest 'major' airframes, and still do. Then the Major's pay came down, to below SW, through the bankruptcy process.

Today I'm glad the SW guys make as much as they do! I just want the rest of the industry to get back to where they were, before the rape and pillage began. Hell, a riverboat tug captain makes $350K/yr!

Or...are you saying that a 50 seat Capt. should make as much as a 350 seat Capt? Where is the "Productivity" logic in that?

I don't think pay has ever been based on responsibility or liability. Isn't it based on productivity and amount of revenue generated by the aircraft you are flying?
I hate to go against the grain here- and I know I'll catch flak for it, but I think SWA pilots are overpaid. I just don't see how any airline captain is worth what, 350K a year- especially when there are thousands of us out here doing the exact same job for much less. It's not that I want to see their pay go down, I want to see the bottom come up, and maybe a more fair pay system. Flight-hour wages based on the size of aircraft is stupid IMO.
"... I think SWA pilots are overpaid." "It's not that I want to see their pay go down..."
If you believe that they are OVERpaid, you do think their pay should go down. It's the same thing as thinking you're underpaid, you think your pay should go up. Although I don't agree with the first part, I do agree with the second part.

12th year SW captain. $126960

What can I say....relative to my peers on here I guess I'm lazy and stupid! ;)

6th year DL 320 FO, 7.5 months of pay so far: 68,500. The next paycheck on the 31st will be around 4300 or so to complete the month. Reserve the whole year, and only one trip of premium flying this year (counted in that pay, just got another one the other day).

I'll gladly never collect another tax free dollar if it means never spending another minute anywhere in the middle east or SW Asia. Just sayin'.

That was just a cop-out response. :rolleyes:

"... I think SWA pilots are overpaid." "It's not that I want to see their pay go down..."
If you believe that they are OVERpaid, you do think their pay should go down. It's the same thing as thinking you're underpaid, you think your pay should go up. Although I don't agree with the first part, I do agree with the second part.

I'm glad for them, but I don't think this job is worth 30K a month. I say I don't want their pay to go down because it helps keep the rest of our pay up. I wish that starting pay was higher, and rose more quickly, and also wasn't so different for different sizes of aircraft. If all of that was true, then maxing out at say 200K would be ok.

JB 2nd Yr A320 70.86/hr
As of 7/31
$62,699
As of 8/31
$71,115

I'm glad for them, but I don't think this job is worth 30K a month. I say I don't want their pay to go down because it helps keep the rest of our pay up. I wish that starting pay was higher, and rose more quickly, and also wasn't so different for different sizes of aircraft. If all of that was true, then maxing out at say 200K would be ok.

Says the guy who has probably never actually made $200k/yr. Try living in a domicile, owning a home in said domicile, raising a couple of kids (with Mom staying home), and sending them to college. I'll be the first to tell you how blessed I am, but I also don't feel like I'm on Easy Street....or one of Obama's 1%ers, either. Don't keep selling yourself short. Mgmt is more than willing to do that for you. Every time the aircraft pushes back from the gate, you and the dude sitting next to you are assuming a staggering corporate liability for which you are not appropriatly compensated for...whether it's a Dash or a B744. Remember that next time your contract becomes amendable

Says the guy who has probably never actually made $200k/yr. Try living in a domicile, owning a home in said domicile, raising a couple of kids (with Mom staying home), and sending them to college. I'll be the first to tell you how blessed I am, but I also don't feel like I'm on Easy Street....or one of Obama's 1%ers, either. Don't keep selling yourself short. Mgmt is more than willing to do that for you. Every time the aircraft pushes back from the gate, you and the dude sitting next to you are assuming a staggering corporate liability for which you are not appropriatly compensated for...whether it's a Dash or a B744. Remember that next time your contract becomes amendable

if there was a "like" button it would be pressed.

if there was a "like" button it would be pressed.
Over and over again, 200 k goes pretty quick.

What is really 'funny' (in a sick way) is that the guys who haul boxes make more than the guys flying the exact same airframes, full of humans! :eek:

No disrespect to the freight dogs, I'm glad you are being paid well, I hope we can catch back up some day. I was hauling boxes long before I got hired at DL and if I'd stayed there, I'd probably be pretty senior at UPS today....making a lot more money.

Believe me, I much prefered hauling boxes, as we used to say, "Boxes don't B!tch", but from stricktly a -liability- standpoint, who is responsible for more lives?

I have to respond to this:

I believe our pay is based on revenue moved not liability or lives.

Take a 777 going from the US to Narita. 45 Business class seats at $7500 each = $33750 and 224 coach @ $1000 = $224000 for a total of $561500.
A FDX 777 on the same route will have several million dollars of freight on board. But only 4 token lives...which one is more productive based on revenue???

Just not sure what asking "who has more lives on a jet" has anything to do with pay......?

I have to respond to this:

I believe our pay is based on revenue moved not liability or lives.

Take a 777 going from the US to Narita. 45 Business class seats at $7500 each = $33750 and 224 coach @ $1000 = $224000 for a total of $561500.
A FDX 777 on the same route will have several million dollars of freight on board. But only 4 token lives...which one is more productive based on revenue???

Just to clarify, are you saying the aircraft is carrying freight worth several million dollars, or are you saying your customers have collectively paid several million dollars to have their freight shipped on that 777?

I have to respond to this:

I believe our pay is based on revenue moved not liability or lives.

Take a 777 going from the US to Narita. 45 Business class seats at $7500 each = $33750 and 224 coach @ $1000 = $224000 for a total of $561500.
A FDX 777 on the same route will have several million dollars of freight on board. But only 4 token lives...which one is more productive based on revenue???

I agree with you on the productivity argument, but is each Fed Ex flight producing millons of dollars in revenue? And what's a human life worth these days? As much as an overnight letter?

Like I told one little old lady when she asked me, "Is this thing Safe?"

(it was an MD88, maybe she knew something!:eek::D)

"I'm really only worried about one person surviving this flight, ME! But, chances are if I survive, you will too. The Pilots are always the first to die in a crash, so just sit back and relax, I'm pretty sure I'm not going to kill myself today."

And I wanted to get a flight kit sticker that said,

"If you were a BOX, I'd be getting paid more!" :rolleyes:

I have to respond to this:

I believe our pay is based on revenue moved not liability or lives.

Take a 777 going from the US to Narita. 45 Business class seats at $7500 each = $33750 and 224 coach @ $1000 = $224000 for a total of $561500.
A FDX 777 on the same route will have several million dollars of freight on board. But only 4 token lives...which one is more productive based on revenue???

Just not sure what asking "who has more lives on a jet" has anything to do with pay......?

I'm guessing a FedEx flight carries more revenue per pound, but don't forget that the LAX-NRT pax flight has ancillary revenue and underbelly freight.

I once heard that UA had flights in the 90's where the freight paid the bills and the pax were pure profit. Of course, I heard that from a pilot...

I once heard that UA had flights in the 90's where the freight paid the bills and the pax were pure profit. Of course, I heard that from a pilot...

I think before FedEx got the postal contract that may have been valid, but not sure.

12th year SW captain. $126960

What can I say....relative to my peers on here I guess I'm lazy and stupid! ;)

Smokey, is that this year and at the August point?

12 th yr fo ups
131,000

I have to respond to this:

I believe our pay is based on revenue moved not liability or lives.

Take a 777 going from the US to Narita. 45 Business class seats at $7500 each = $33750 and 224 coach @ $1000 = $224000 for a total of $561500.
A FDX 777 on the same route will have several million dollars of freight on board. But only 4 token lives...which one is more productive based on revenue???

Just not sure what asking "who has more lives on a jet" has anything to do with pay......?
Great simple explanation to a complicated question. You get paid more because your average flight revenues considerably more then your mainline counterpart. More pay=more revenue not more responsibility. Great post!!!

I'm guessing a FedEx flight carries more revenue per pound, but don't forget that the LAX-NRT pax flight has ancillary revenue and underbelly freight.

I once heard that UA had flights in the 90's where the freight paid the bills and the pax were pure profit. Of course, I heard that from a pilot...

Someone on here posted a few weeks ago, that if you took a standard brand X airplane, and put 10 overnight envelopes on each seat, all the extra space in the airplane to which you can stuff cargo is profit. Not sure how accurate that is.

I have to respond to this:

I believe our pay is based on revenue moved not liability or lives.

Take a 777 going from the US to Narita. 45 Business class seats at $7500 each = $33750 and 224 coach @ $1000 = $224000 for a total of $561500.
A FDX 777 on the same route will have several million dollars of freight on board. But only 4 token lives...which one is more productive based on revenue???

Just not sure what asking "who has more lives on a jet" has anything to do with pay......?

Any guess on how much cargo revenue has on our 777 going from the US to Narita? I have heard it comes close to matching PX revenue and even exceeding it sometimes.

This is a pretty silly back and forth to me...good job box guys, but we are all worth more than we make now. (except SWA, of course;))

Any guess on how much cargo revenue has on our 777 going from the US to Narita? I have heard it comes close to matching PX revenue and even exceeding it sometimes.

I think we had about 30,000 lbs. cargo coming out of Shanghai a few days ago, with 269 (full) pax. In one of Delta's press reports they said China is the only growing market, and they are going to start daily service to Bejing, which is now 5 days per week.

BUT...they are cutting the nonstop DTW-HKG out completely in Sept.

Smokey, is that this year and at the August point?

Actually, it is end of June numbers, which I have come to realize may not be consistent with the OP's guidelines.

Maybe I'm not flying as stupid and lazy as I thought.... :D

I think establishing a "fair market value" for the profession is a heck of a lot more complicated than simply size of aircraft, responsibility, revenue generated etc etc.... Sure revenue establishes a company's bottom line "ability to pay" but the responsibility of parlaying that bottom line into compensation is up to the collective group through collective bargaining.

I suggest reading this New Yorker writer Malcolm Gladwell's piece on the effect of collective bargaining in Major League Baseball.

http://db.tt/3XCXeX1R

It's really interesting and REALLY relevant to our profession when you consider the fact that embracing collective bargaining is really about changing one's perspective.

Ultimately there are alot of factors involved in how ones "fair market value" is established... Not just company profitability, but timing (as related to the economy, the industry, and the world), the attitude and managerial philosophy of an airline's upper management, the resources and leadership of the union, and the unity of the pilot group are BIG factors. Throw in precedent and benchmarks over time and you'll find that there really is no magic formula; it's more about luck, timing, fortitude, and attitude....

We all do the same job. We all have similar qualifications. We all suffer with the same job-related lifestyle issues. Fortunately if what they say about pilot shortages and experience-base increases come to fruition, we may be in a fine position to better establish our fair market value.

Just my humble opinion.

I suggest reading this New Yorker writer Malcolm Gladwell's piece on the effect of collective bargaining in Major League Baseball.

. . . the unity of the pilot group are BIG factors.

MLBPA bargains on behalf of ALL MLB players. ALPA only bargains on behalf of a % of their own members at any one time. And, of course, ALPA doesn't represent a good 40% or so of pilots (IBT, SWAPA, APA, IPA, non-union, etc.).

Unity is hard to achieve in such a disparate scenario. National seniority list, anyone?:D

Station manager in AMS last trip told me that cargo profit often exceeds passenger profit on the AMS-USA flights.

Something slightly different... 12 year active duty air force assigned in new England. 7/31 ytd 68,614, 17,400 of which is untaxed. 3500 into a 401k type program, no employer match. I've flown about 275 hours, spent 70 days deployed and another 30-40 on short trips. Free health care.

Pm


JB A320 FO - 7 YR

$101/hr
$104,000 YTD (7/31/12)
$5,200 401K Company Contribution
$9,700 Profit Sharing (based on 2011 Wages)
$3,100 Per Diem

Work a lot, but the system rewards it.

563 hours of block through 7/31

Pm

8 yr FDX MD-11 FO

sit a lot of reserve in base
48 days of actual work so far thru 7/31
129 block hrs
$101K pay, + per diem, pension and 7% B fund

Dang That 8yr FedEx pilot should apply at JB as soon as possible :D

especially considering that JB paid more to a 1 year more junior FO in an A320 compared to a Widebody. :eek:

Dang That 8yr FedEx pilot should apply at JB as soon as possible :D

especially considering that JB paid more to a 1 year more junior FO in an A320 compared to a Widebody. :eek:

The JB guy did work ~46% more days and ~336% more hours than the Fedex guy. So, for the extra days and over a 3-fold increase in flying, I'd say he earned it in spades. Good on him.

The JB guy is flying his tail off and is pretty unrealistic. Over 1000 credit hours at 7 months? Even with the overtime pay that is a TON of flying. [A]typical. I have a good friend who is a JB 10 yr CA on the 320 out of BOS. Lives in domicile and is on target to make about $180k this year. That's typical. The FedEx guy is not that [a]typical if you live in base.

If you want to work hard then go to SWA or JB - you can make a lot but not without working hard. Don't believe all the hype - work rules and book rates tell you the typical pay and that's what you want to look at.

That's kinda why I posted the 2 side by side. Seems like a few bloated salaries showing up ;)

Im not going to be putting in those kinda credit times. Only seen 650 hours in the last 2.5 years. Great for the honey do list....wait maybe I should try and work more :eek:

That's kinda why I posted the 2 side by side. Seems like a few bloated salaries showing up ;)

Im not going to be putting in those kinda credit times. Only seen 650 hours in the last 2.5 years. Great for the honey do list....wait maybe I should try and work more :eek:



The bloated salaries are exactly what this thread is about. It's not meant to be the what's your w2 bragging thread but to compare the effect of contract language on your pay. Obviously, if a guy makes less that $100/hr and made over $100,000 by 7/31 then they have some good contract language.

The bloated salaries are exactly what this thread is about. It's not meant to be the what's your w2 bragging thread but to compare the effect of contract language on your pay.

:confused: Bloated salaries? In the 2012 commercial aviation industry? I think it's tough to characterize any pilot's pay as "bloated" currently. That implies they're overpaid and I think we can all agree that's not a big problem these days. Based on your second statement above, I agree that the point of this thread was to highlight contractual influences on overall pay. I'm not sure why you felt the need to discuss "bloated salaries" and claim that is the what the thread is about.

Forgot to put "bloated" in quotes. Sorry.

Forgot to put "bloated" in quotes. Sorry.
I have a hard time seeing a corrolation between bloated and any bodies response so far. This has actually been one of the best threads in a while no opinions just info. Let's keep it that way, keep the info coming!!

MLBPA bargains on behalf of ALL MLB players. ALPA only bargains on behalf of a % of their own members at any one time. And, of course, ALPA doesn't represent a good 40% or so of pilots (IBT, SWAPA, APA, IPA, non-union, etc.).

Unity is hard to achieve in such a disparate scenario. National seniority list, anyone?:D

The Big difference is MLBPA doesn't negotiate contracts, each individual Player hires an Agent to bargain his Individual Contract with the team, which includes salary, move packages, and % of sales using their Trademark name.

Grnclvrs - seriously dude do you work in the industry? Ever read a CBA? Any CBA? JB has no contract and virtually no contractual language. You work more you get paid more. I'm just surprised by your comment and obvious lack of knowledge about pilot contracts in general. Still in "aviation" school?

Dang That 8yr FedEx pilot should apply at JB as soon as possible

especially considering that JB paid more to a 1 year more junior FO in an A320 compared to a Widebody.

The JB guy did work ~46% more days and ~336% more hours than the Fedex guy. So, for the extra days and over a 3-fold increase in flying, I'd say he earned it in spades. Good on him.

The JB guy is flying his tail off and is pretty unrealistic. Over 1000 credit hours at 7 months? Even with the overtime pay that is a TON of flying. [A]typical. I have a good friend who is a JB 10 yr CA on the 320 out of BOS. Lives in domicile and is on target to make about $180k this year. That's typical. The FedEx guy is not that [a]typical if you live in base.

If you want to work hard then go to SWA or JB - you can make a lot but not without working hard. Don't believe all the hype - work rules and book rates tell you the typical pay and that's what you want to look at.

That's kinda why I posted the 2 side by side. Seems like a few bloated salaries showing up ;)

Im not going to be putting in those kinda credit times. Only seen 650 hours in the last 2.5 years. Great for the honey do list....wait maybe I should try and work more :eek:

I have a hard time seeing a corrolation between bloated and any bodies response so far. This has actually been one of the best threads in a while no opinions just info. Let's keep it that way, keep the info coming!!

Grnclvrs - seriously dude do you work in the industry? Ever read a CBA? Any CBA? JB has no contract and virtually no contractual language. You work more you get paid more. I'm just surprised by your comment and obvious lack of knowledge about pilot contracts in general. Still in "aviation" school?




Ahhh, the old still in school quote. You hurt me bad. I quoted the posts for you so you don't have to go back and look at them. Reading comprehension's not your best subject is it. Maybe you can have your mom teach you that next (see what I did there?)

Ahhh, the old still in school quote. You hurt me bad. I quoted the posts for you so you don't have to go back and look at them. Reading comprehension's not your best subject is it. Maybe you can have your mom teach you that next (see what I did there?)

And responding with an even higher level of immaturity to the post which offended you so accomplishes what?

In grnclvrs defense, he was a huge part of the push at AAY to get the union in.. Trust me when I say the guy "gets it". I think it was a poor choice of words but he is from Ireland so, perhaps "bloated" doesn't carry the same connotation with the Guiness boys...

But if anyone understands the point of this thread, it's him.

But if anyone understands the point of this thread, it's him.

Well that makes one.

Obviously, if a guy makes less that $100/hr and made over $100,000 by 7/31 then they have some good contract language.


My comment - so just tell me how good the JB contract language is again? Rather, why don't you tell them.

Station manager in AMS last trip told me that cargo profit often exceeds passenger profit on the AMS-USA flights.

And you've gotta remember….at UPS we don't carry much "cargo," but mostly international express which is priced at 9-40+ times per pound more than cargo.

Strip out all the seats, overheads, galleys, bluerooms, and other passenger comforts, and fill both the lower holds and main deck with international express, and you start to see the golden glimmer of our revenue flow (torrent)….

OK, back on topic.

7 year 737 FO
$106/hr
$76,888 YTD
495 flight hours :eek:

Pm

OK, I'll bite…

UPS 22 year 767 Captain (International)

Through July28th, gross $227,680

Hourly rate $261.67

228 total block hours.

Gross includes all per diem, intl override, and 70 hours of sick leave bank buy back.

For the first five months, limited by furlough rules: no line adjustment greater than 5 hours. Last two months allowed contractual conflict and caps.

I bid one month of reserve (only one call out with 45 minutes of block time), and the rest were regular lines, usually flying our Europe trips and North Atlantic crossings.

For the first seven months, I only worked 70 duty days. This is a bit low since i used all five weeks of my vacation and had my annual three day training event. I am pay protected for all trips dropped. Last year I averaged 12 duty days per month.

If I wasn't constrained by our furlough rules (which I fully support) the first five months, I probably would've made a bit more money, and worked the about the same amount of time.

22 years ago, I was just in the right place at the right time, and stuck it out….

Holy crap! That's $32,500 per month. Good for you, well done...

OK, back on topic.

7 year 737 FO
$106/hr
$76,888 YTD
495 flight hours :eek:

What airline?

What airline?

Conited (or Unental if you prefer)

Pm

OK, I'll bite…

UPS 22 year 767 Captain (International)

Through July28th, gross $227,680

Hourly rate $261.67

228 total block hours.

Gross includes all per diem, intl override, and 70 hours of sick leave bank buy back.

For the first five months, limited by furlough rules: no line adjustment greater than 5 hours. Last two months allowed contractual conflict and caps.

I bid one month of reserve (only one call out with 45 minutes of block time), and the rest were regular lines, usually flying our Europe trips and North Atlantic crossings.

For the first seven months, I only worked 70 duty days. This is a bit low since i used all five weeks of my vacation and had my annual three day training event. I am pay protected for all trips dropped. Last year I averaged 12 duty days per month.

If I wasn't constrained by our furlough rules (which I fully support) the first five months, I probably would've made a bit more money, and worked the about the same amount of time.

22 years ago, I was just in the right place at the right time, and stuck it out….
WOW..................

Holy crap! That's $32,500 per month. Good for you, well done...
Even more impressive is $1000 per block hour!

Even more impressive is $1000 per block hour!

You, sir, just blew my mind...:eek:

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/26171462.jpg

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/26171462.jpg

It is also worth noting that Fedex and UPS both make more than a whole bunch of other airlines combined. Coinkydink?

It is also worth noting that Fedex and UPS both make more than a whole bunch of other airlines combined. Coinkydink?

Definitely not trying to make fun of my anonymous UPS captain compadre. More power to him, I think its awesome! Its good to know there are still good jobs in aviation.

It is also worth noting that Fedex and UPS both make more than a whole bunch of other airlines combined. Coinkydink?

Do you think that the payrates would be the same (or higher) without a collective bargaining agreement?

Do you think that the payrates would be the same (or higher) without a collective bargaining agreement?

ALPA manages the unions for many airlines, why aren't the pay rates the same?
Do you actually think the unions decide pay rates?

Collective bargaining is part of a union for most of us, and it can be done outside of a union, but you cannot squeeze blood from a turnip.

ALPA manages the unions for many airlines, why aren't the pay rates the same?
Do you actually think the unions decide pay rates?

Collective bargaining is part of a union for most of us, and it can be done outside of a union, but you cannot squeeze blood from a turnip.

So, yes, or no in the case of a CBA at FDX/UPS?

Do you think the poster would have made $227K in the first half of the year without a union/CBA combo?

Would a CBA without a union be as successful for the employees?

So, yes, or no in the case of a CBA at FDX/UPS?

Do you think the poster would have made $227K in the first half of the year without a union/CBA combo?

Would a CBA without a union be as successful for the employees?

Let us suppose for a moment that we can design a satisfactory contract and include pay raises tied to inflation. How much would it be worth to the pilots and the company to dissolve the union?

Add that amount to everyones pay check. My guess is a six to ten percent raise.

Now, let us suppose that after three years of struggle, your union is able to obtain a wage raise of ten percent. But at the same time personal, corporate and capital gains taxes jump 50%-what will you gain? My guess is much less than nothing.

Let us suppose for a moment that we can design a satisfactory contract and include pay raises tied to inflation.

Who's this "we" Kimosabee? Without a legally recognized union the company cannot be held to any of its' agreements with the pilots.

Just ask any FDX pilot pre-1989.

We tried it for years. We never saw real improvements until we were union. And I think that most would agree that FDX is lightyears ahead of UPS in regards to labor relations.

Ben there, done that... The Student Council didn't work in high school and it doesn't work in the world of big business.

You are very correct in that a good part of our compensation/benifits is due to our companies' ability to pay them and still make very big profits.

Regards,
Clutch

You are very correct in that a good part of our compensation/benifits is due to our companies' ability to pay them and still make very big profits.

Regards,
Clutch

Exactly. FedEx/UPS have sustainable, successful business models where they can pass along costs to customers in ways airlines cant imagine. FedEx/UPS are also the only real players in the market when it comes to package delivery, so competition is limited to those two companies.

With the recent consolidation in the passenger airline business, my hopes are that DAL/UA/AA will be able to negotiate contracts similar to FedEx as the pax carriers gain pricing power and reduce competition.

Who's this "we" Kimosabee? Without a legally recognized union the company cannot be held to any of its' agreements with the pilots.

You are very correct in that a good part of our compensation/benifits is due to our companies' ability to pay them and still make very big profits.

Regards,
Clutch

I agree with most of what you are saying, but to think that the word "union" adds any magic to a legally binding contract which both parties have agreed to is a mistake.

I can point to dozens of union contracts rendered null and void in the last decade-all due to financial failures.

If FEDEX chose not to honor their contract to pay for 777s, Boeing will demand return of their property.

Pm




6 yr JB E190 CA
$137/hour
As of 7/31 $134,280 YTD
Includes base and premium pay only (no per diem).
Average 13 days off a month.
Live in base, no RSA, admittedly on Flica quite a bit.

Pm

7 Year CAL FO (Instructor) Pay protected on 777(121.67/hr)

$109,110.63 Regular Earnings (including profit sharing)
$13,900.00 B-Fund Contribution

I agree with most of what you are saying, but to think that the word "union" adds any magic to a legally binding contract which both parties have agreed to is a mistake.

I can point to dozens of union contracts rendered null and void in the last decade-all due to financial failures............


A "union" contract is only a good as the parties that sign (and live up to) them. That said, a collectively bargained contract, ratified under the RLA is a more solid agreement than the "handshake" agreements that the non union guys operate under. While some union contracts suffer by comparison to non union T & C's, no non union "handshake" is as good as the average union contract, certainly not even close to the best.

A "union" contract is only a good as the parties that sign (and live up to) them. That said, a collectively bargained contract, ratified under the RLA is a more solid agreement than the "handshake" agreements that the non union guys operate under. While some union contracts suffer by comparison to non union T & C's, no non union "handshake" is as good as the average union contract, certainly not even close to the best.

Interesting, but a legally binding contract is just that, it is not a handshake-it is a signed legal document with the full force of the law.

You are correct that a union contract is only as good as the parties signing it, as are A plan agreements.

Being on the outside of the fish tank and waiting for my opportunity in the 121 world that pays more than food stamps. What is a good rule of thumb regarding hourly pay and how much you will make in a year? 1,000 x hourly rate? More?

Do you think that the payrates would be the same (or higher) without a collective bargaining agreement?
An emphatic No!! Not meaning to cause thread creep, but the ONLY reason I have a flush toilet in my 767 is because my contract requires one on flights over two hours. UPS pays all our employee groups well, but I don't expect them to give me a plugged nickel unless it's required in my contract; a contract negotiated by my union, the IPA.

An emphatic No!! Not meaning to cause thread creep, but the ONLY reason I have a flush toilet in my 767 is because my contract requires one on flights over two hours. UPS pays all our employee groups well, but I don't expect them to give me a plugged nickel unless it's required in my contract; a contract negotiated by my union, the IPA.

No thread creep, no worries -- I agree with you.

Jungle repeatedly dodged answering the actual question but the gist of his or her responses is a "no."

Being on the outside of the fish tank and waiting for my opportunity in the 121 world that pays more than food stamps. What is a good rule of thumb regarding hourly pay and how much you will make in a year? 1,000 x hourly rate? More?

First, don't EVER plan your finances around crediting ANYTHING more than what the airlines monthly guaranty is X the hourly rate, then X 12 for a wag for a yearly gross. But it'll usually be in the 900-1000 a year range. Some places may have a 13 bid (pay) period a year though, so that can skew it. I believe UPS does this. FedEx has months that DON'T credit the same. But I believe the appropriate APC airline profile pages elaborates on this.

Of course, just by reading this thread, you can figure out that you CAN credit more than min guaranty. But there's a whole slew of subjective factors that make it hard to be specific. Every airline can have different reserve/line holder utilization rules where you can't credit more than a certain amount in a month. There's always trip/duty rigs that send the number higher, or a monthly flying/credit cap that may keep it below a certain level, etc.

Being on the outside of the fish tank and waiting for my opportunity in the 121 world that pays more than food stamps. What is a good rule of thumb regarding hourly pay and how much you will make in a year? 1,000 x hourly rate? More?

It isn't only about the money, but that is very important. IMO, there are other things to think about too:
1. Is there a base/domicile near where you WANT to live? I commute and would love to drive to work.
2. Which company hired the pilots you would have hired - that company will likely have a culture you fit right into.
3. Freight vs pax - Don't make a distinction. When I was in the job hunt, I did (I didn't know any better).
4. Pay little or no attention to "management/pilot relations." Day to day this has far less to do with QOL than 1 and 2 above.
5. What are the age demographics of the pilot group. Older pilot groups enable you to move up quicker which allows you to earn higher pay sooner due to upgrade.

good luck.

Pm


pay for emirates
Emirates Airbus FO
Yr 1
$59000 net YTD
$7100 Provident fund
300 flt hours
$57 month medical and dental.

Pay is salary plus flt. pay. Per diem is paid in cash at the hotel.

Pm

2nd year Delta 757/767 reserve. Never broken guarantee 7/31 gross is 49658. Spent half the year on the M88. DC plan was 5587 and per deim was 2725. 462 hours of block.

Pm

YTD for July 31 as 767, 8 yr Captain at Hawaiian, average 17-18 days off and 83 hours/mo as of Jun and July -- $121,966 .. $198 + $5 international over ride not including $49/day Per Diem.

Pm

DAL 320a

$135,220 gross through 7/31
$ 19,061 company paid 401k contribution

includes $9000 profit sharing and $700 shared
rewards

I'm flying everything trip I can squeeze in and have had over 100 credit hours every month this year.
Highest month was 125. Probably averaging around 107. Some premium flying (double pay).

Someone will call BS on this but its legit. I'm paying off a debt and I will throttle back the pace in 2013.

Very interesting thread;

Here's me:

Cathay Pacific year 2 SO, B777; HKG based.

7/31 YTD - $59,506

Provident fund - $7,512

3 long hauls a month.

Average about 92.5 credit hours a month.

Lowest month - $7,497

Highest month - $10,335

Average at 92.5 hours - $8,335

Per diem is paid in cash at each hotel. Not included in the above figures. Varies wildly based on hotel and location, typically about $700-800 a month.

what does a 777 SO do? How is it different than an FO on that jet?

Think of it like a Relief First Officer, usually not the one who does the takeoff/landing.

Think of it like a Relief First Officer, usually not the one who does the takeoff/landing.

Exactly. Lots of sims and exposure for a couple of years before the upgrade to FO.

Here is mine:

Air Japan 767 f/o, year 3 pay. Based in Narita

Through 7/31,
--Gross $60,400
--Hotel Allowance $5172
--Commute Allowance $4000 (usually do the business class ticket option but this was for 2 months of not)
--Premium Pay $860
--Vacation Payout $6000
--Per Diem $8100

Total $84532


Medical Insurance is Aetna Global and is $0/month premiums.

I have averaged just about 52 hours flying per month.

Here is mine:

Air Japan 767 f/o, year 3 pay. Based in Narita

Through 7/31,
--Gross $60,400
--Hotel Allowance $5172
--Commute Allowance $4000 (usually do the business class ticket option but this was for 2 months of not)
--Premium Pay $860
--Vacation Payout $6000
--Per Diem $8100

Total $84532


Medical Insurance is Aetna Global and is $0/month premiums.

I have averaged just about 52 hours flying per month.

Sounds like commuters are well catered for in your contract.

Sounds like commuters are well catered for in your contract.

They are since we are all commuters. No residency visas available with this contract. So they give you 2k a month or a business class seat home.

This is for those who haven't seen the MIT study.

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2011%2012%20Month%20Documents/Employees%20and%20Compensation/Pilots/Average%20Annual%20Wages%20and%20Salaries%20-%20PILOT%20AND%20CO-PILOT%20PERSONNEL.htm