Airline Pilot Forums

Looking past the awful pain this shut down is causing hundreds of pilots and their families, this shut down (and the rest of the regional airlines woes) appear to have a bright side when taken into context. This shut down does not appear to be related to capacity cuts, which means the flying will be replaced by 717s and other larger regional jets. This is positive on two accounts; one, larger regional jets mean better pay than 50-seaters; two, a shrinking regional airline sector combined with bringing flying in-house by the majors like Delta (717s) should reduce the time pilots spend at the regional airlines.

Sure, in the short run this transition is causing pain, and it's possible more pain will happen. But looking forward, does the above make sense? Am I missing something?

Less regional flying is ALWAYS a good thing, even though it means some may suffer in the short term for a greater good. But what grinds the gears is that it's the wrong people suffering. As soon as a pilot group stands up and says "no" to bad work agreements (comair), or they get too expensive (trans states) they're the ones who are out of jobs while the regionals that really need to be shot down (gojets for example, no offense to anyone there) continues to thrive and sometimes even benefit from it.

Less regional flying is ALWAYS a good thing, even though it means some may suffer in the short term for a greater good. But what grinds the gears is that it's the wrong people suffering. As soon as a pilot group stands up and says "no" to bad work agreements (comair), or they get too expensive (trans states) they're the ones who are out of jobs while the regionals that really need to be shot down (gojets for example, no offense to anyone there) continues to thrive and sometimes even benefit from it.
That's the regional model. Cheap, outsourced feed with low longevity. It's why Mesa and Pinnacle were so prosperous from 2000-2006, and they took plenty of flying from the mainline and certain other regionals. Once you get people lots of people maxed out at 12th year pay at the regional level, that operation becomes too expensive to compete with other newer entrants in the industry, like GoJets and Compass. 12 years from now, assuming the regional industry exists like it does, then the GoJets and Silver will be replaced by other, cheaper carriers.

...one, larger regional jets mean better pay than 50-seaters.

No, it means more crappy wages to fly larger regional jets. The more large regional jets mainline can get, the less mainline hiring will occur.

No, it means more crappy wages to fly larger regional jets. The more large regional jets mainline can get, the less mainline hiring will occur.

BINGO !!!

Eagle will be the next carrier to fly 79-seat airliners for peanuts. Yes, they WILL get some of those jets and while it may be palatable for those very senior who don't plan on leaving, for the majority it means many of them will still be there in 10 years and for all intents and purposes chained to that carrier for their careers. At that point, they'll be too old and be passed up for younger, cheaper pilots at the majors who don't need full family health care or expensive health issues.

The worst part (as if that isn't bad enough) is that virtually all of the majors will have whipsaw models in place whereby each of these regional carriers flying a portion of that majors feeder needs will have short-term contracts that must be rebid and thus compensation for these pilots will be continuously stagnant. Considering inflation and skyrocketing health care, the earning power for most will actually decline year-over-year.

The shininess of a CRJ-900 or E-175 will wear off quickly, especially since there will be fewer escape ropes to the majors, stagnation will occur. The next down cycle will see the music stop and the inevitable lack of available chairs for all and that's at both the majors and regionals.

The question for each pilot is, "where will YOU be in that conga line when the music DOES stop again ?".

The question for each pilot is, "where will YOU be in that conga line when the music DOES stop again ?".


Sure as hell not at a regional. I'm happy flying a Metro working with an FO that makes more money then most CAs flying RJs.

Serious question here...what options do guys that don't want to work at the regional level yet make it to the majors have? I'm fortunate enough to be living in Canada, where there's no such thing as regionals (yet), and I make a very good wage and have great QOL. RJ pilots here make mainline wages. So I am able to circumvent ever having to go work for one of those regionals, but my question is for those less fortunate, is there a legitimate and reasonable way of getting around working for 18K/yr?

Sure, in the short run this transition is causing pain, and it's possible more pain will happen. But looking forward, does the above make sense? Am I missing something?

Looking forward, those planes are going to cheaper regionals. More experienced pilots are jobless and less experienced pilots are upgrading. Delta still has no 717s on property. Delta still is not hiring.

On the other hand, Bill Lumberg is banned from APC.

So all in all, I'd say this TA is a big neutral.

I'm happy flying a Metro working with an FO that makes more money then most CAs flying RJ.

It's all about the take home. I took home more money flying a CRJ in the US than I do as a mainline pilot in Canada. In Canada, we're paying 40%+ income tax rates.

CC,

Don't think Jazz, or CMA are of the regional airline description and criteria. Are they Legacies? LOL.

YD

It's all about the take home. I took home more money flying a CRJ in the US than I do as a mainline pilot in Canada. In Canada, we're paying 40%+ income tax rates.

Good point Canam...I'm so used to be taxed up my arse I forget that take home for a first year RJ pilot is probably the same as what a 30K per year FO makes.

Yabadaba, I don't consider CMA to be a legitimate company at all. While there are companies like that, there are many more that are willing to pay you well and treat you well for your work. I'm fortunate and blessed enough to work for one.

Jazz is considered a major here. The pay is the same as AC's and tops out pretty high.

Looking forward, those planes are going to cheaper regionals. More experienced pilots are jobless and less experienced pilots are upgrading. Delta still has no 717s on property. Delta still is not hiring.



Yup, that's about it in a nutshell. Would love to have that cheaper regional fail miserably at staffing its new planes. Let the jobs go unfilled or at least filled with such inexperienced pilots that the powers that be are forced to make changes. If DAL thinks they have problems now with their DCI carriers, just wait.

Yabadaba, I don't consider CMA to be a legitimate company at all. While there are companies like that, there are many more that are willing to pay you well and treat you well for your work. I'm fortunate and blessed enough to work for one.

Jazz is considered a major here. The pay is the same as AC's and tops out pretty high.

Ultimately... if your PAX buying a ticket with a major airline showed up and are ****ed they are are on your RJ... your a regional pilot. If your flying routes that are sold under another companies name... your a regional pilot. Nobody gets on the web and searches for Jazz fares.

Yes, I grew up win Western Canada and work for a YYC company... Great quality of life with both countries but anyone who things they will get rich by jumping the border is a moron.

Anyway... best of luck to the Comair guys and gals... sorry for the highjack.

Yup, that's about it in a nutshell. Would love to have that cheaper regional fail miserably at staffing its new planes. Let the jobs go unfilled or at least filled with such inexperienced pilots that the powers that be are forced to make changes. If DAL thinks they have problems now with their DCI carriers, just wait.


The legacies will do what they have always done through policies of serving large markets and the heck with the smaller markets. The pain will never be equal.

My heart goes out to the Comair lifers. I respect them and understand why they made their choices.

I hope the can land on their feet.

Good luck to you all, may you find a decent job and be happy.

jsh

Yup, that's about it in a nutshell. Would love to have that cheaper regional fail miserably at staffing its new planes. Let the jobs go unfilled or at least filled with such inexperienced pilots that the powers that be are forced to make changes. If DAL thinks they have problems now with their DCI carriers, just wait.
God forbid something bad happens with experienced pilots on the street. The $&!$ storm that will ensue will devastate Delta.
I blame ALPA for allowing this to happen.

Looking forward, those planes are going to cheaper regionals. More experienced pilots are jobless and less experienced pilots are upgrading. Delta still has no 717s on property. Delta still is not hiring.

On the other hand, Bill Lumberg is banned from APC.

So all in all, I'd say this TA is a big neutral.


Well, transient issues (Delta 717 not yet on property) as well as well-known issues with the seniority system aside, I think on balance things are looking up. I think it's going to be a mild improvement, but it's there.

Ultimately... if your PAX buying a ticket with a major airline showed up and are ****ed they are are on your RJ... your a regional pilot. If your flying routes that are sold under another companies name... your a regional pilot. Nobody gets on the web and searches for Jazz fares.

Yes, I grew up win Western Canada and work for a YYC company... Great quality of life with both countries but anyone who things they will get rich by jumping the border is a moron.

Anyway... best of luck to the Comair guys and gals... sorry for the highjack.

Ya true, but there's a big difference between a regional pilot making regional wages and making the same wages as its parent major. And also, most pilots who go to the majors here don't need to go through jazz (regionals) first to get there.

God forbid something bad happens with experienced pilots on the street. The $&!$ storm that will ensue will devastate Delta.
I blame ALPA for allowing this to happen.

While I'm sure some would like a crap storm to devastate Delta, that ain't gonna happen. At some point in their history, every mainline has had a subcontractor regional crash an airplane and kill people. In the end, there was relatively little blowback.

And how it it ALPA's fault for a business decision by management? For the last several years, regional pilots have been yelling about mainline scope sales and take the flying back. Well, what we are seeing is the inevitable outcome of that finally happening. The first to go will be the better paid, regionals who can't compete economically with the bottom feeders. Then, while there might be a temporary boost to the BFs, they will eventually not be able to handle the flying, and with less ability to whipsaw will be under more pressure to perform. When they cannot meet performance goals, artificial or not, the legacies will finally shut the whole mess down.

This is the result of scope take backs. Expect to see more pain in the regional set if UCAL and AA are able to rein in their scope. That is what everyone wanted right?

Ya true, but there's a big difference between a regional pilot making regional wages and making the same wages as its parent major. And also, most pilots who go to the majors here don't need to go through jazz (regionals) first to get there.
That is true. I don't know anyone at WJ or AC that worked at Jazz prior.

Airline Pilot Central - Air Canada | Canadian (http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/canadian/air_canada.html)

Airline Pilot Central - Jazz Aviation | Canadian (http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/canadian/jazz_aviation.html)

Unless these payscales aren't accurate the EMB guys at AC make about 30% more than Jazz Ca's... and will be on a list to move to a bigger plane.

12 year upgrade... yikes!

While I'm sure some would like a crap storm to devastate Delta, that ain't gonna happen. At some point in their history, every mainline has had a subcontractor regional crash an airplane and kill people. In the end, there was relatively little blowback.

And how it it ALPA's fault for a business decision by management? For the last several years, regional pilots have been yelling about mainline scope sales and take the flying back. Well, what we are seeing is the inevitable outcome of that finally happening. The first to go will be the better paid, regionals who can't compete economically with the bottom feeders. Then, while there might be a temporary boost to the BFs, they will eventually not be able to handle the flying, and with less ability to whipsaw will be under more pressure to perform. When they cannot meet performance goals, artificial or not, the legacies will finally shut the whole mess down.

This is the result of scope take backs. Expect to see more pain in the regional set if UCAL and AA are able to rein in their scope. That is what everyone wanted right?

DAL was gonna park those 50 seaters anyway. I'm pretty sure that they were gonna get the 717's anyway too. The only thing this contract accomplished scope-wise was added larger regional jets to regionals. Hardly a win.

DAL was gonna park those 50 seaters anyway. I'm pretty sure that they were gonna get the 717's anyway too. The only thing this contract accomplished scope-wise was added larger regional jets to regionals. Hardly a win.

Actually, DL was not going to get the 717s if the TA didn't pass. They had two business plans, one with, one without. If the TA had been voted down, they would have gone with the 717less plan.

As for the 50s going away, yes they were. However, the 717less plan called for a more gradual drawdown over the next few years, not the wholesale slash and burn going on now. Had the TA been voted down, Comair would still be around for the time being. While they were certainly on life support, they would still be flying 50s for a few years.

BINGO !!!

Eagle will be the next carrier to fly 79-seat airliners for peanuts. Yes, they WILL get some of those jets and while it may be palatable for those very senior who don't plan on leaving, for the majority it means many of them will still be there in 10 years and for all intents and purposes chained to that carrier for their careers. At that point, they'll be too old and be passed up for younger, cheaper pilots at the majors who don't need full family health care or expensive health issues.

The worst part (as if that isn't bad enough) is that virtually all of the majors will have whipsaw models in place whereby each of these regional carriers flying a portion of that majors feeder needs will have short-term contracts that must be rebid and thus compensation for these pilots will be continuously stagnant. Considering inflation and skyrocketing health care, the earning power for most will actually decline year-over-year.

The shininess of a CRJ-900 or E-175 will wear off quickly, especially since there will be fewer escape ropes to the majors, stagnation will occur. The next down cycle will see the music stop and the inevitable lack of available chairs for all and that's at both the majors and regionals.

The question for each pilot is, "where will YOU be in that conga line when the music DOES stop again ?".

I don't agree with this and here is why. Who would you rather hire, a 45 year old pilot who would work for 20 years before mandatory retirement, or a 25 year old who would work for you for 40 years? It would cost you less money over the long term for the 45 year old...

That is true. I don't know anyone at WJ or AC that worked at Jazz prior.

Airline Pilot Central - Air Canada | Canadian (http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/canadian/air_canada.html)

Airline Pilot Central - Jazz Aviation | Canadian (http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/canadian/jazz_aviation.html)

Unless these payscales aren't accurate the EMB guys at AC make about 30% more than Jazz Ca's... and will be on a list to move to a bigger plane.

12 year upgrade... yikes!

Air Canada just went through arbitration on their contract a week ago, and the new wages (significantly lower) aren't accurate anymore.

That said, I do realize Jazz is a regional, but they do pay a lot better then GoJetsssss or any other US regional. I know guys who are making a career of it, which is a lot less lucrative at other places..

Air Canada just went through arbitration on their contract a week ago, and the new wages (significantly lower) aren't accurate anymore.

That said, I do realize Jazz is a regional, but they do pay a lot better then GoJetsssss or any other US regional. I know guys who are making a career of it, which is a lot less lucrative at other places..

The position group (EMB) rates for AC listed on APC were never accurate...always seemed to be too low. Under the new FOS the rates are closer to JetBlue's. Also, the hourly rate for the new 4 year flat salary are as follows:

Year 1: 50.27, Year 2: 55.50, Year 3: 63.87, Year 4: 72.24