Airline Pilot Forums

I know when the wording of H.R. 5900 came out there was talk of exceptions down to 1,000 hours for a frozen ATP with a four year degree in aviation as well as another one for the military, but recently I have not heard too much about it. Does anyone know if they are still in the works at this point?

FAA released an NPRM proposing that in February of this year, comments closed in April. Someone emailed the FAA about it and posted their response here.

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/aviation-law/69215-official-atp-rule-rumors-3.html

To sum it up, the FAA expects a final ruling on the Restricted ATP requirements in the Spring or Summer of 2013.

I know when the wording of H.R. 5900 came out there was talk of exceptions down to 1,000 hours for a frozen ATP with a four year degree in aviation as well as another one for the military, but recently I have not heard too much about it. Does anyone know if they are still in the works at this point?

Once the comment period closed (in April), the FAA began reviewing what everyone had to say. The exceptions (1000/750) were simply proposed. Based off the comments, testimony, etc, etc the FAA will release the final ruling. Apparently that ruling was supposed to be out this month, however, someone on this forum emailed the contact at the FAA and posted her response which basically said the final ruling would be out spring of next year. I'm assuming they received more comments then anticipated.

HR5900 is still a go, so all pt. 121 pilots will need an ATP by August 2013, however, it is now up to the FAA to determine what is needed for an ATP. The 1000/750 proposal may stick, they may just keep the current ATP req's in place and offer no exceptions, or (what many think will happen) they'll lower those exceptions even more and tier it as well. So for example, 500 for aviation grades with a jet course, 750 for jet course OR aviation school, military, 1000 for this, 1250 for that, etc. That's what I heard from a friend who's been working on the HR5900 stuff in DC. So we'll see.

Thanks. I'm a current CFI, but will miss the age requirement for the ATP by slightly under 3 months, so as far as I can tell, I'll have the 1,500 hours anyways by then, but have a lot of friends banking on these exceptions.

Thanks. I'm a current CFI, but will miss the age requirement for the ATP by slightly under 3 months, so as far as I can tell, I'll have the 1,500 hours anyways by then, but have a lot of friends banking on these exceptions.

This is why pilots are their own worst enemies. Banking on anything in aviation is risky. However, banking on anything to lower the standards of a certain quality that effects the industry as a whole is a real bad idea. Tell your friends to maybe re-access their wishes. It's better in the long-run.

This is why pilots are their own worst enemies. Banking on anything in aviation is risky. However, banking on anything to lower the standards of a certain quality that effects the industry as a whole is a real bad idea. Tell your friends to maybe re-access their wishes. It's better in the long-run.

I bet it goes even lower than what was originally proposed.

What a useless bill to fix the aftermath of Flight 3407. One pilot already had the ATP and the other was a pretty decently experienced CFI. I highly doubt that pilots having an ATP beforehand would have prevented the crash. These pilots were tired/fatigued, but from the looks of it, it was due to commuting, commuting through the night, and resting in a crewroom.

What a useless bill to fix the aftermath of Flight 3407. One pilot already had the ATP and the other was a pretty decently experienced CFI. I highly doubt that pilots having an ATP beforehand would have prevented the crash. These pilots were tired/fatigued, but from the looks of it, it was due to commuting, commuting through the night, and resting in a crewroom.

Really? Fighting a stick-pusher is due to fatigue? Hardly...not that this bill will change anything, anyway.

What a useless bill to fix the aftermath of Flight 3407. One pilot already had the ATP and the other was a pretty decently experienced CFI. I highly doubt that pilots having an ATP beforehand would have prevented the crash. These pilots were tired/fatigued, but from the looks of it, it was due to commuting, commuting through the night, and resting in a crewroom.

Commuting on a redeye from Seattle! :eek:

I think they both had > 3000tt as well.

Really? Fighting a stick-pusher is due to fatigue? Hardly...not that this bill will change anything, anyway.
From the sounds of the CVR, he had no idea what was going on. His actions have been concluded as those based on startle factor, and not thinking it through. They were alert enough to be talking pretty much nonstop, even below 10k. This accident was somewhat related to fatigue, but not based on their schedule. Both were tired from their commutes and their sleep in the crew room, with the FO flying while clearly sick. Not that I blame her, she financially couldn't afford to call in sick.

Commuting on a redeye from Seattle!

I think they both had > 3000tt as well.
Yes, and not just a redeye from SEA, but a Fedex redeye. That means an initial redeye from SEA to MEM, wait a couple of hours in which you pretty much can't sleep, and then board another plane for a redeye to EWR. There's no quality sleep here. The CA's story is only a little better, he didn't commute through the night. But in both cases, their commute choices (one through the night) and more importantly, their sleep choices (crew room) led to fatigue that night. Their original schedule that day had a EWR-ALB turn and the accident flight to BUF for the overnight. The ALB turn cancelled. The accident happened on their first actual leg, with duty time being very low. It would have been an entirely different story if this accident was leg #7 on a 13:45 hr duty day. Then the industry would have screamed schedule fatigue. But as it happened, the commute+sleep issues was more so the problem.

Not that I blame her, she financially couldn't afford to call in sick.


Her (our) passengers and their families can't afford for her (us) to fly while sick.....

What a useless bill to fix the aftermath of Flight 3407. One pilot already had the ATP and the other was a pretty decently experienced CFI. I highly doubt that pilots having an ATP beforehand would have prevented the crash. These pilots were tired/fatigued, but from the looks of it, it was due to commuting, commuting through the night, and resting in a crewroom.

I bet you are one of those guys that sarcastically comments on global warming when the news says it's "colder than average" in a specific place.

I can't believe such narrow minded people succeed as professionals in the aviation career.

This is why pilots are their own worst enemies. Banking on anything in aviation is risky. However, banking on anything to lower the standards of a certain quality that effects the industry as a whole is a real bad idea. Tell your friends to maybe re-access their wishes. It's better in the long-run.

I have ATP so I don't care about this ruling, but aviation has existed without this until now. How is it lowering standards by not having it? Aviation is the safest it's ever been without it ever existing. THE PILOT AT THE CONTROLS HAD HIS ATP. It is being used by pilots who think it will help their careers by limiting the options of young people.

I want the rule to pass in its full writing. I also want all the FO's with ATP to be able to log turbine PIC and be competitive applicants for larger carriers.

In my opinion, and this is soley my opinion based on many years of observation and a firm believing in experiential learning is that it's not about the ticket or how many hours you have when you are capable of catastrophic damage. It's about the experience you obtained prior to ever being able to become capable of adversely effecting the lives of paying passengers.

In other words, I believe that if this rule had existed many years prior to the Colgan crash, there is a good chance it would not have ended up the way that it did.

Sure they still would have been fatigued, underpaid, and unprofessional. However, following initial warning of an impending stall both pilots would have responded (not reacted) to the condition and reversed it's severity thus resulting in some paperwork, carpet dancing and maybe the loss of their jobs rather than the ultimate in unfavorable results. A smoking hole.

The reason that I feel that this new law could have possibly prevented the seriousness of the events is because the captain that had his ATP would have otherwise never earned his ATP if he wasn't forced to the way he was. The airlines kept ignoring the signs that he hadn't experienced enough nor was he competent enough to serve as a captain.

The mistakes made by the flight crew were very basic and happen often in the world of general aviation and other forgiving forms of flying. Something he was never able to experience. I feel as if he were to experience this same exact scenario in a more forgiving environment, one of two things would have occurred. Either he would learn from his mistake and apply that to his experience when he becomes a captain or he would quit flying all together because he scared the crap out of himself and realized it's just not the thing for him. It doesn't matter what the FO did. She just made the situation worse. But if he had never gotten them into the situation in the first place she could have done what ever she did and everyone would have been fine.

Some people were never meant to become pilots. Under our current culture and set of rules, this will never be caught. Until it's too late.

This guy was never supposed to become a pilot.

In my opinion, and this is soley my opinion based on many years of observation and a firm believing in experiential learning is that it's not about the ticket or how many hours you have when you are capable of catastrophic damage. It's about the experience you obtained prior to ever being able to become capable of adversely effecting the lives of paying passengers.

In other words, I believe that if this rule had existed many years prior to the Colgan crash, there is a good chance it would not have ended up the way that it did.

Sure they still would have been fatigued, underpaid, and unprofessional. However, following initial warning of an impending stall both pilots would have responded (not reacted) to the condition and reversed it's severity thus resulting in some paperwork, carpet dancing and maybe the loss of their jobs rather than the ultimate in unfavorable results. A smoking hole.

The reason that I feel that this new law could have possibly prevented the seriousness of the events is because the captain that had his ATP would have otherwise never earned his ATP if he wasn't forced to the way he was. The airlines kept ignoring the signs that he hadn't experienced enough nor was he competent enough to serve as a captain.

The mistakes made by the flight crew were very basic and happen often in the world of general aviation and other forgiving forms of flying. Something he was never able to experience. I feel as if he were to experience this same exact scenario in a more forgiving environment, one of two things would have occurred. Either he would learn from his mistake and apply that to his experience when he becomes a captain or he would quit flying all together because he scared the crap out of himself and realized it's just not the thing for him. It doesn't matter what the FO did. She just made the situation worse. But if he had never gotten them into the situation in the first place she could have done what ever she did and everyone would have been fine.

Some people were never meant to become pilots. Under our current culture and set of rules, this will never be caught. Until it's too late.

This guy was never supposed to become a pilot.

Very well stated.

The CA and FO both had significant career shortcuts, with the CA having been involved in Gulfstream.

Pinnacle 3701, the Pinnacle MKE accident (no one was hurt, but over a million dollars of damage done to the plane), Comair 5191, and this Colgan accident all involved Gulfstreamers.

Very well stated.

The CA and FO both had significant career shortcuts, with the CA having been involved in Gulfstream.

Pinnacle 3701, the Pinnacle MKE accident (no one was hurt, but over a million dollars of damage done to the plane), Comair 5191, and this Colgan accident all involved Gulfstreamers.

Yep exactly. Had the Colgan captain (and others mentioned) been required to have an ATP and 1500TT before going to an airline, they never would've made it.

Its tough to get to 1500TT in general aviation. You have to have a lot of skill and you're going to be put in more than a few situations where you have to prove your worth as a pilot both to others and to yourself/the airplane/the situation.

Obtaining that level has a required baseline skill/ability/motivation/talent that is easily filtered and cannot be bought. Is it a very good moron-filter.

Is it a very good moron-filter.


Exactly! Well put!

What a useless bill to fix the aftermath of Flight 3407. One pilot already had the ATP and the other was a pretty decently experienced CFI. I highly doubt that pilots having an ATP beforehand would have prevented the crash. These pilots were tired/fatigued, but from the looks of it, it was due to commuting, commuting through the night, and resting in a crewroom.

Really? Fighting a stick-pusher is due to fatigue? Hardly...not that this bill will change anything, anyway.

I think what he's saying is, you could have a pilot that's "low time", yet is rather competent and ACTUALLY knows how to fly a plane, had some exposure to multi engine/turbine equipment, a would have done the right thing.

OR, you could have a "high time" pilot that is substandard, his experience was mostly in a VFR environment, whatever. And would have done as the Colgan CA would.

And YES, I think changing the requirement is one of the best things to happen in our career field. But it's not really a cure all fix. A guy could go out and burn 1500 hours on NOTHING but VFR cross countries using a GPS. Last time he did a stall was on his COMM checkride over 1200 hours ago, etc and be deemed "qualified". Whilst a lower time pilot that has different more/more intensive experience would be deemed "unqualified".

Like I said, I AGREE with the change, but it should go deeper than just a TT requirement. And YES, I KNOW the amount of change and govt red tape/B.S. that would have to be overcome would be insane. I'm juss sayin'.......

Anyway, as mentioned by others, Afterburn nails it with a very direct, straightforward wording at the end of his post.......

Some people were never meant to become pilots. Under our current culture and set of rules, this will never be caught. Until it's too late.

This guy was never supposed to become a pilot.

They were alert enough to be talking pretty much nonstop, even below 10k. This accident was somewhat related to fatigue, but not based on their schedule. Both were tired from their commutes and their sleep in the crew room, with the FO flying while clearly sick. Not that I blame her, she financially couldn't afford to call in sick.

True, but remember, people can react to fatigue in various ways. If you read/listen to the CORPEX CVR, they were babbling like crazy.

And as far as the sick thing, I believe it also later released that there was a concern of punitive action by the company over sick calls IIRC, but not for sure. I though it was also a factor in the 170 at CLE. But I'd have to go back an read it all again

Their original schedule that day had a EWR-ALB turn and the accident flight to BUF for the overnight. The ALB turn cancelled. The accident happened on their first actual leg, with duty time being very low. It would have been an entirely different story if this accident was leg #7 on a 13:45 hr duty day. Then the industry would have screamed schedule fatigue. But as it happened, the commute+sleep issues was more so the problem.

Again, agree. But besides not having the proper rest before duty causing fatigue, so does time since awake. Did the first turn cancel before starting, or well before starting their duty period? I don't know. But if it was one those situations where they show up, delayed delayed delayed, THEN finally canceled, that comes into play in the time since awake.

XJT, that makes perfect sense...I'm also in agreement with Afterburn, who put it more succinctly than I ever could have! Unfortunately prior experience cannot be dictated, nor would you want it to...but the demand for pilots will undoubtably (and already has to a great extent, as evidenced by Colgan et al) allow those that have the intelligence, but not necessarily the skill or aptitude to be safe and successful, access to an airliner regardless.

Obtaining that level has a required baseline skill/ability/motivation/talent that is easily filtered and cannot be bought. Is it a very good moron-filter.
As afterburn said, very well put.

People not wanting the rule to go through, wanting the exceptions and 'tiers' for an aviation degree, a jet course, whatever are furthering the entitlement is already so prevalent with new pilots. Everyone expects to get their wet commercial and go to an airline, then upgrade as soon as they get 1500TT, get a thousand hours as PIC, then go to SWA and love life. It's disgusting.

Instruct a little bit, get a 135 job, earn some pay for a bit, make some decisions, scare yourself, start thinking that airline passengers (who still think they're on Delta, United, etc) deserve something better from their crews.

Of course, the same people who demand exceptions and butchering of the rule are the ones who want more, bigger RJs...they want to fly the CRJ-900 and ERJ-190 because they're mainline airplanes, OMG! Disgusting.

Build 1500 hours before going to the airlines??

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8kqtnhFVu1r565d9.gif

Build 1500 hours before going to the airlines??


Sadly, that used to be the defacto standard.....but over the past few years it fell and now the noobs feel screwed because of the the "new" minimum.


sigh.....

Well, what the heck are you going to do now when you need to attract cheap inexperienced pilots to make a start up airline to undercut your old airline that was costing too much?

Very well stated.

The CA and FO both had significant career shortcuts, with the CA having been involved in Gulfstream.

Pinnacle 3701, the Pinnacle MKE accident (no one was hurt, but over a million dollars of damage done to the plane), Comair 5191, and this Colgan accident all involved Gulfstreamers.
There shouldn't be a correlation. For most of them, Gulfstream was years before the accident happened. I cannot buy it when one tries to connect attending Gulfstream to an accident years down the road.

There shouldn't be a correlation. For most of them, Gulfstream was years before the accident happened. I cannot buy it when one tries to connect attending Gulfstream to an accident years down the road.

your saying when comparing the three major RJ airline crashes within a few years, and all three captains are from gulfstream, and its not a link?

:confused:
I guess its why you fly planes.

ShyGuy

The habits of taking shortcuts, poor knowledge base, poor skills in general develop early and don't go away unless one is in a very competitive, demanding environment.

The AF used to have Red Flag, theory was that most combat losses occurred in the first ten missions, so let's give them that experience BEFORE combat. Losses, about 1-3 per Red Flag, were considered acceptable because, "we'd have lost them anyway in combat". Gradually, politics took some of the losses seriously and made things safer, if less testing. GA can do the same thing. I lost three friends flying checks, freight still weeds out a few each year.

GF

Well, what the heck are you going to do now when you need to attract cheap inexperienced pilots to make a start up airline to undercut your old airline that was costing too much?

Well, you now hire people at 1500 hours and pay them $16 bucks an hour because the drool for a regional job will never go away, 500 extra hours won't make the pilot demand more money, nor does it increase the value of the pilot from a management perspective.

Alternatively, regionals could come up with some special part 91 operation (for a profit, of course) and hire 500 hour pilots for $11 an hour because, after all, there would be no other options for said pilot...

Alternatively, regionals could come up with some special part 91 operation (for a profit, of course) and hire 500 hour pilots for $11 an hour because, after all, there would be no other options for said pilot...
I knew we'd come up with a solution! Oooh!, it could be an "Airline Training Academy", they could buy out the flight instruction business, give the instructors "guaranteed interviews" when they get 1500 and are hiring (which doesn't guarantee a job), it's the perfect $11/hr job, plus, you get to say "I'm a pilot for (insert airline here)". No guarantees for students, but they'd still sign up.

There shouldn't be a correlation. For most of them, Gulfstream was years before the accident happened. I cannot buy it when one tries to connect attending Gulfstream to an accident years down the road.

There is a correlation... you never had to fly with them as your FO! (not all were that way, but too many...)

All the captains in those accidents weren't from gulfstream- the FO on the Comair accident was, not the captain. Both on Pinnacle 3701, the FO on the MKE, FO on Comair, and CA on Colgan.

There must be a daily act of God occuring to keep Gulfstream/Silver pilots from not crashing all the time since they are soooooo bad.

There must be a daily act of God occuring to keep Gulfstream/Silver pilots from not crashing all the time since they are soooooo bad.

Yea, it's not like you people landed at the wrong airport within the first few weeks of operating out of Dulles. Whoops...

There is a correlation... you never had to fly with them as your FO! (not all were that way, but too many...)

All the captains in those accidents weren't from gulfstream- the FO on the Comair accident was, not the captain. Both on Pinnacle 3701, the FO on the MKE, FO on Comair, and CA on Colgan.
Again, it's a pretty far stretch to say those accidents can somehow be attributed to Gulfstream or its training. Especially when it's the FO being ex-Gulfstream in those accidents. I can also pick out several legacy airline crashes with both military pilots at the controls. Want to draw a correlation?

your saying when comparing the three major RJ airline crashes within a few years, and all three captains are from gulfstream, and its not a link?


The Comair Captain wasn't Gulfstream. The FO was Gulfstream, but a very long time ago before the accident. And with more flight time than the Captain. The Pinnacle MKE Captain wasn't gulfstream, and the CA made the decisions to continue on that one. As for Colgan, that Captain had numerous failures before and after Gulfstream. It was the system that failed. Besides, he lied on the application and no one caught it. Gulfstream or not, it was fact that Colgan was hiring 500 hr guys.

Gulfstream enables pilots who wouldn't be able to otherwise cut it to buy their way into an airline job. Getting to 1500TT and successfully interviewing is tough and a lot of people can't do it.

It isn't anything to do with Gulfstream's training itself, its that it (and other places like it) allow those on the lower end of the scale to slip through the cracks and become qualified enough to get into an airliner. Not to say there aren't some exceptional pilots that came through Gulfstream, but it also enables those without the natural skill/ability/drive/etc to become a successful airline pilot the chance at being one anyways.

Gulfstream enables pilots who wouldn't be able to otherwise cut it to buy their way into an airline job. Getting to 1500TT and successfully interviewing is tough and a lot of people can't do it.

It isn't anything to do with Gulfstream's training itself, its that it (and other places like it) allow those on the lower end of the scale to slip through the cracks and become qualified enough to get into an airliner. Not to say there aren't some exceptional pilots that came through Gulfstream, but it also enables those without the natural skill/ability/drive/etc to become a successful airline pilot the chance at being one anyways.
Ok, I think that's fair enough, but I wouldn't draw a correlation and say a statement that these accidents were 'because' of Gulfstream Academy pilots. And Gulfstream was hardly the only low-time option. There are tons more CRJ course operators that allow low time pilots to be hired. Besides, at one point in 2004-2007, some airlines like TSA and Piedmont were basically hiring at Commercial/Inst/ME ratings and 250 hours, with no RJ course.

. Besides, at one point in 2004-2007, some airlines like TSA and Piedmont were basically hiring at Commercial/Inst/ME ratings and 250 hours, with no RJ course.

Hiring? Yes. Sending to the line? No. I think Piedmont was alot like TSA. The training department had no problem washing people out who couldn't hack it at TSA.

Ok, I think that's fair enough, but I wouldn't draw a correlation and say a statement that these accidents were 'because' of Gulfstream Academy pilots.

I don't believe anyone said the fact the the pilots were from Gulfstream was directly causative, but rather that as lowlut aptly explained, they skipped over important, fundamental skills and knowledge that should have been acquired well before they were ever in the cockpit of a 121 carrier.

And Gulfstream was hardly the only low-time option. There are tons more CRJ course operators that allow low time pilots to be hired.


That is correct, and that is the problem with cut-outs or tiers to the legislation. 1500 hours, period, end of story. Not a perfect solution (I'd personally prefer a bar or board type system involving a panel as well as several loft type scenarios, which I think would be much more effective - but that's another discussion), but it's a start to raising the experience standards back to a very minimal level.

Besides, at one point in 2004-2007, some airlines like TSA and Piedmont were basically hiring at Commercial/Inst/ME ratings and 250 hours, with no RJ course.

See above.

Gulfstream enables pilots who wouldn't be able to otherwise cut it to buy their way into an airline job. Getting to 1500TT and successfully interviewing is tough and a lot of people can't do it.

It isn't anything to do with Gulfstream's training itself, its that it (and other places like it) allow those on the lower end of the scale to slip through the cracks and become qualified enough to get into an airliner. Not to say there aren't some exceptional pilots that came through Gulfstream, but it also enables those without the natural skill/ability/drive/etc to become a successful airline pilot the chance at being one anyways.


shyguy- you missed the point. This post was what I was getting at.

Hiring? Yes. Sending to the line? No. I think Piedmont was alot like TSA. The training department had no problem washing people out who couldn't hack it at TSA.

+1, however I do find it ironic that at certain regionals washing out weak people= quality people getting to the line, whereas in the eyes of certain others about Pinnacle and some other airlines, washing out the weak= training dept. not doing their job. :confused:

+1, however I do find it ironic that at certain regionals washing out weak people= quality people getting to the line, whereas in the eyes of certain others about Pinnacle and some other airlines, washing out the weak= training dept. not doing their job. :confused:


Both scenarios are plausible.

Yea, it's not like you people landed at the wrong airport within the first few weeks of operating out of Dulles. Whoops...

How about when Delta landed on the taxiway in ATL or NW overshot their destination you can point fingers all you want....

How about when Delta landed on the taxiway in ATL or NW overshot their destination you can point fingers all you want....

Got it. You never want to work at Delta.

Gulfstream enables pilots who wouldn't be able to otherwise cut it to buy their way into an airline job. Getting to 1500TT and successfully interviewing is tough and a lot of people can't do it.

It isn't anything to do with Gulfstream's training itself, its that it (and other places like it) allow those on the lower end of the scale to slip through the cracks and become qualified enough to get into an airliner. Not to say there aren't some exceptional pilots that came through Gulfstream, but it also enables those without the natural skill/ability/drive/etc to become a successful airline pilot the chance at being one anyways.
Completely agree (and I'm a current "Silver Stream" pilot). I wouldnt call it a correlation, but Gulfstream is definitely a common denominator in the previously listed regional accidents. Dont get me wrong, there are in my opinion a lot of great guys/pilots here. But Gulfstream, and all regionals nonetheless, dont teach you how to not be an idiot. It's is assumed that you know how to be a mature professional pilot when you show up to class. Pass your tests and checkride, and you make it to the line. Is Gulfstream's training the reason why the guys in the Pinnacle 3701 accident flamed out/core locked both engines at FL410 and crashed? Of course not. But I'd agree that the younger, lower time pilot group that the Stream attracts will make it more likely that idiots like this(pardon the term) will slip through the cracks later on in their career and possibly take other peoples lives... Mistakes will happen, but I think HR 5900 definitely could help mitigate them.

I think hr5900 is good for the industry but why haven't they put out a grandfather clause yet? Seems like none of regionals know what they are gonna do with hiring.

In the late 1960's, airlines were hiring low time, zero time guys to fly complex jet aircraft. It was the dawn of the jet age and there was a pilot shortage. The difference between then and recent history is these individuals were mentored by experienced pilots from the "High and the Mighty" generation. Guys with experience flying NDBs as high tech equipment. Currently we don't have that mentoring capacity. Furloughing at the majors brought on by RJ advancement at the regionals has created an experience gap. Fresh new captains with no real life experience paired with fo's from pilot mills has been and continues to be the norm. Very different times indeed.

Low time new hires is not the entire problem. It has worked in the past. The combined experience of the cockpit is what is important. The airlines need to cherish longevity, and experience. It creates an environment of education and stability.

Got it. You never want to work at Delta.

Fail to see the correlation in pointing out errors of mainline and me wanting to never work there. My point is this, there is many folks jumping on a bandwagon to throw these guys under the bus. This is an example for everyone to learn from, no matter your experience level complacency is dangerous.

In the late 1960's, airlines were hiring low time, zero time guys to fly complex jet aircraft. It was the dawn of the jet age and there was a pilot shortage. The difference between then and recent history is these individuals were mentored by experienced pilots from the "High and the Mighty" generation. Guys with experience flying NDBs as high tech equipment. Currently we don't have that mentoring capacity. Furloughing at the majors brought on by RJ advancement at the regionals has created an experience gap. Fresh new captains with no real life experience paired with fo's from pilot mills has been and continues to be the norm. Very different times indeed.

Low time new hires is not the entire problem. It has worked in the past. The combined experience of the cockpit is what is important. The airlines need to cherish longevity, and experience. It creates an environment of education and stability.

+1 (filler)

How about when Delta landed on the taxiway in ATL or NW overshot their destination you can point fingers all you want....

Did they, or did they not land at the correct destination though?

Did they, or did they not land at the correct destination though?

Ummm, on a taxiway at the world's busiest airport. :eek:

I think hr5900 is good for the industry but why haven't they put out a grandfather clause yet? Seems like none of regionals know what they are gonna do with hiring.

I think the law (HR5900) forbids a grandfather clause. I might be wrong though.

Ummm, on a taxiway at the world's busiest airport. :eek:

They did it in the middle of the night during a medical emergency while doing a sidestep maneuver to land on a closer runway to the terminal. They realized they were not lined up right, but decided that the taxiway landing was a better option than going around. IMHO, the wrong decision, but I was not there. They knew before they touched down that they were landing on a taxiway and that it was clear.

Fail to see the correlation in pointing out errors of mainline and me wanting to never work there. My point is this, there is many folks jumping on a bandwagon to throw these guys under the bus. This is an example for everyone to learn from, no matter your experience level complacency is dangerous.

You put your company up on a pedestal. I understand that it's your first airline job, but the truth is your airline is such a bad job that most people don't even consider it a real 121 airline. It's more of a glorified 135 operation run with old planes and inexperienced pilots that no one else wants.

I agree with some of the above bashes to silver airways. How ever coming from 9E with no upgrade in site , I made the move for a left seat offer. Most places could care less were you got the PIC as long as you have some. The silver versus prior gulfstream has changed vastly, they hired a lot of former pinnacle and Colgan guys etc that have a good background. mistakes will continue to be made , hopefully not as embarrassing as landing at the wrong airport, but no one can't sit here and bash every person who had something to do with gulfstream / silver . Every airline has had there share , both regional level and major .

Completely agree (and I'm a current "Silver Stream" pilot). I wouldnt call it a correlation, but Gulfstream is definitely a common denominator in the previously listed regional accidents. Dont get me wrong, there are in my opinion a lot of great guys/pilots here. But Gulfstream, and all regionals nonetheless, dont teach you how to not be an idiot. It's is assumed that you know how to be a mature professional pilot when you show up to class. Pass your tests and checkride, and you make it to the line. Is Gulfstream's training the reason why the guys in the Pinnacle 3701 accident flamed out/core locked both engines at FL410 and crashed? Of course not. But I'd agree that the younger, lower time pilot group that the Stream attracts will make it more likely that idiots like this(pardon the term) will slip through the cracks later on in their career and possibly take other peoples lives... Mistakes will happen, but I think HR 5900 definitely could help mitigate them.

Moreso, those pilots went there when gulfstream had the pay 25000 dollars to sit right seat of a Beech 1900 for 250 hrs and shortcut your career program. The common denominator is those attracted to those sorts of programs.

I think hr5900 is good for the industry but why haven't they put out a grandfather clause yet? Seems like none of regionals know what they are gonna do with hiring.

Gonna be a disaster. In 2007-2009 when Eagle was hiring at 300-400 TT, they couldn't get bodies in the door. Eagle's pilot forum would report every Monday how many actually showed up for newhire FO classes. If it was tough to get bodies at 400 TT, what's going to happen when age-65 retirements create vacancies at majors, but regionals can only fill their places with 1500-hour ATP's?

Gonna be a disaster. In 2007-2009 when Eagle was hiring at 300-400 TT, they couldn't get bodies in the door. Eagle's pilot forum would report every Monday how many actually showed up for newhire FO classes. If it was tough to get bodies at 400 TT, what's going to happen when age-65 retirements create vacancies at majors, but regionals can only fill their places with 1500-hour ATP's?

*in typical deep movie trailer voice* "In a world, where pilots are faced by an uncertain future. Where planes will sit empty on the ramp. Where schedulers wont have anyone to call. It is...the end of the regional airline industry as the world knows it today. People will call this day the Armageddon of low time pilots. HR 5900. In theaters August 1st, 2013. Rated R for nudity"

*in typical deep movie trailer voice* "In a world, where pilots are faced by an uncertain future. Where planes will sit empty on the ramp. Where schedulers wont have anyone to call. It is...the end of the regional airline industry as the world knows it today. People will call this day the Armageddon of low time pilots. HR 5900. In theaters August 1st, 2013. Rated R for nudity"
A film by Roger Cohen; A GoJetzzz Inc. Production

Gonna be a disaster. In 2007-2009 when Eagle was hiring at 300-400 TT, they couldn't get bodies in the door. Eagle's pilot forum would report every Monday how many actually showed up for newhire FO classes. If it was tough to get bodies at 400 TT, what's going to happen when age-65 retirements create vacancies at majors, but regionals can only fill their places with 1500-hour ATP's?

+1. I'm sure something will happen to weaken the bill. All the people for HR5900 and increasing the mins can moan and complain all the want. But in DC, money talks. You'd have to be an idiot to think that the RAA, regional airlines (and majors) won't do everything they can ($$) and make sure the requirements stay lower. Not because cheap labor is better for business, but they need to make sure they have a steady flow of bodies coming in to fly their airplanes. Washington reacted with a bill to help safety, but when the airlines start screaming that they won't have bodies to fly their airplanes, Washington is going react to that as well.

If it was tough to get bodies at 400 TT, what's going to happen when age-65 retirements create vacancies at majors, but regionals can only fill their places with 1500-hour ATP's?

The FAA will be "forced" to create a multi crew license, we become the next Europe. Something tells me that that has been a plan of someone's ever since the first legislation passed.

The FAA will be "forced" to create a multi crew license, we become the next Europe. Something tells me that that has been a plan of someone's ever since the first legislation passed.

There are plenty of qualified pilots within the USA..... If we ever see MCL it will be a long time.

The FAA will be "forced" to create a multi crew license, we become the next Europe. Something tells me that that has been a plan of someone's ever since the first legislation passed.

What's a multi-crew license?

There are plenty of qualified pilots within the USA..... If we ever see MCL it will be a long time.

Agree to a point. The "shortage (ha ha) will be at the regional level, NOT the legacy level.

Yep, there's PLENTY of regional lifers, but there's ALSO plenty of us that are ready to GTFO ASAP. Combine that with the 135 pilots, corporate pilots, separating mil pilots, etc etc etc.

The "shortage', (again, ha ha) will be at the regional level. So your point of there being plenty of qualified pilots within the U.S.A. is true. But at the level where the alleged "shortage" will be, how many of the qualified pilots will be willing to work at the wages regional pay?

What's a multi-crew license?

It was seen as measure to get pilots into cockpits quicker, or to put "meat in the seat".

It was designed to give a pilot TONS of turbine/multi crew simulator time with VERY LITTLE ACTUAL FLIGHT TIME. A pure "apprenticeship" if you will. You can probably google the specifics, but IIRC it was less than 100 hours in ACTUAL airplanes combined with the sim time before be put into the cockpit of an airliner.

http://aviationknowledge.wikidot.com/aviation:multi-crew-pilot-license

Ready to vomit after reading that?

Agree to a point. The "shortage (ha ha) will be at the regional level, NOT the legacy level.

Yep, there's PLENTY of regional lifers, but there's ALSO plenty of us that are ready to GTFO ASAP. Combine that with the 135 pilots, corporate pilots, separating mil pilots, etc etc etc.

The "shortage', (again, ha ha) will be at the regional level. So your point of there being plenty of qualified pilots within the U.S.A. is true. But at the level where the alleged "shortage" will be, how many of the qualified pilots will be willing to work at the wages regional pay?



It was seen as measure to get pilots into cockpits quicker, or to put "meat in the seat".

It was designed to give a pilot TONS of turbine/multi crew simulator time with VERY LITTLE ACTUAL FLIGHT TIME. A pure "apprenticeship" if you will. You can probably google the specifics, but IIRC it was less than 100 hours in ACTUAL airplanes combined with the sim time before be put into the cockpit of an airliner.

Multi-Crew Pilot License (1) - AviationKnowledge (http://aviationknowledge.wikidot.com/aviation:multi-crew-pilot-license)

Ready to vomit after reading that?

Well, the fact of the matter is that there is no way an MCL regulation will be up and running anytime soon. The regionals are going to be hurting very soon. A year before the new rules kick in, the regionals are already limiting new hires to those at or near 1200-1500. When these guys run out, doubt there will be many more entering the pipeline. This is no mystery - these airlines must have plans to handle this, especially with all these new aircraft orders. There sure doesn't seem to be any panic, though.......

Look at the number of 50-seaters being grounded; add in route cancellations and further consolidation in the regionals--problem solved. Flights like CLT-GSO, CLT-CAE, and a whole slew of others out of hubs will go.

GF

Well, the fact of the matter is that there is no way an MCL regulation will be up and running anytime soon. The regionals are going to be hurting very soon. A year before the new rules kick in, the regionals are already limiting new hires to those at or near 1200-1500. When these guys run out, doubt there will be many more entering the pipeline. This is no mystery - these airlines must have plans to handle this, especially with all these new aircraft orders. There sure doesn't seem to be any panic, though.......
The best solution to that is simple. Increase the pay dramatically. I would say first year pay shouldn't be less than $40, and second year shouldn't be less than $55. Especially considering "regional pilots" are now flying routes like LGA-JAX in 76-person jets.

What they are paying now is pathetic, pure and simple. Pilots are, most certainly, white-collar folks, and should be compensated as such, even at the regional level.

Just my $0.02 from an up-and-coming pilot...

The best solution to that is simple. Increase the pay dramatically. I would say first year pay shouldn't be less than $40, and second year shouldn't be less than $55. Especially considering "regional pilots" are now flying routes like LGA-JAX in 76-person jets.

What they are paying now is pathetic, pure and simple. Pilots are, most certainly, white-collar folks, and should be compensated as such, even at the regional level.

Just my $0.02 from an up-and-coming pilot...

Yea! :rolleyes:

Tell that to regional airline management. Or the 22 year old willing to "fly for peanuts."

Yea! :rolleyes:

Tell that to regional airline management. Or the 22 year old willing to "fly for peanuts."
I won't have to tell them that, I hope that the lack of applicants will speak for themselves. Supply and demand; very simple concept.

Unfortunately, there will still be a certain amount of folks who, like you said, are willing to "fly for peanuts." After all, they get the privilege of flying super-kool airplanes like the brand new MRJ!!!;)

In any career, you do have to "work your way up." But even considering that, pay is horrifically low.

Yea! :rolleyes:

Tell that to regional airline management. Or the 22 year old willing to "fly for peanuts."

You work at Silver, and have no room to talk big.

I won't have to tell them that, I hope that the lack of applicants will speak for themselves. Supply and demand; very simple concept.

Unfortunately, there will still be a certain amount of folks who, like you said, are willing to "fly for peanuts." After all, they get the privilege of flying super-kool airplanes like the brand new MRJ!!!;)

In any career, you do have to "work your way up." But even considering that, pay is horrifically low.

skylover -

You need to take a step back for now from this line. You just had your first introductory flight did you not? If a few years you just might fit that bill of the pilot willing to work for peanuts. It is easy to talk the big talk about not taking such jobs when you have nothing invested in the game as a whole.
At your stage of the game of aviation (sort of like a baby crowning), you probably need to do more listening and less talking about such subjects. :eek: Hopefully when the time comes you'll remember some of what you might have learned on this site. When you turn down your first multi-turbine job because of low pay or poor work rules then you should feel comfortable with coming on a forum and preaching to others.

USMCFLYR

Gonna be a disaster. In 2007-2009 when Eagle was hiring at 300-400 TT, they couldn't get bodies in the door. Eagle's pilot forum would report every Monday how many actually showed up for newhire FO classes. If it was tough to get bodies at 400 TT, what's going to happen when age-65 retirements create vacancies at majors, but regionals can only fill their places with 1500-hour ATP's?

You do realize that there was a special element in play at this time that was creating such a demand for pilots. An element that I haven't seen in a while and I'm pretty sure you don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand why it will probably never again exist at the regional level.

GROWTH!!!


Find me growth at a regional airline. That peak has come and gone. Unless they start building airports in the middle of the ocean while the gubment subsidizes it. You can catch a commercial flight into just about any airport in the world. So I wouldn't count on any future expansion.

And no, Gojetzzzzz doesn't count as a growing airline. They fly nothing but other airlines lost flying. How many regional carriers needed to shed flying for these guys to build an airline is sad. I think a lot of the flying lost is gone forever.

I don't think the key to a better profession with respect to pay, QOL and flat out respect lies in the supply and demand of pilots. The real key is in the demand for lift. Less seats in the air makes it easier for the airlines to charge more. Charging more generates more revenue for lesser overhead. In theory it would make it harder for the corporations to come up with excuses to pay you less.

I'm sure there are many views to that concept. Doesn't matter how short they are on pilots. You will never get paid more if they keep giving tickets away. I wouldn't bank on a shortage to help you out in the future.

What they are paying now is pathetic, pure and simple. Pilots are, most certainly, white-collar folks, and should be compensated as such, even at the regional level.



I would gladly settle for what my blue collar buddies make in skilled trades. Name me one other union/skilled trade job that offers less pay/security/benefits.

I think hr5900 is good for the industry but why haven't they put out a grandfather clause yet? Seems like none of regionals know what they are gonna do with hiring.

Gonna be a disaster. In 2007-2009 when Eagle was hiring at 300-400 TT, they couldn't get bodies in the door. Eagle's pilot forum would report every Monday how many actually showed up for newhire FO classes. If it was tough to get bodies at 400 TT, what's going to happen when age-65 retirements create vacancies at majors, but regionals can only fill their places with 1500-hour ATP's?

Believe me, it won't take much..just a couple airline lobbyists-- "Mr. Senator/Congressman, we will never be able to keep up with staffing or training costs..we will go out of business and crash the entire economy..here's a few million for your 'campaign'"

You work at Silver, and have no room to talk big.

I do? News to me. :confused:

I turned that job down. Yep, low-time (500/110), fresh out of the military, and I turned a flying job down! Why? I wouldn't have made enough to pay my bills. And I didn't want to live in West Virginia.

Sorry boss, you can go bark up another tree.

Believe me, it won't take much..just a couple airline lobbyists-- "Mr. Senator/Congressman, we will never be able to keep up with staffing or training costs..we will go out of business and crash the entire economy..here's a few million for your 'campaign'"

I saw something similar in the computer industry when I graduated college. Many friends of mine were getting 50k-60k jobs fresh out of college in the early 90s. Microsoft and others complained to congress and they got the J-1 Visas relaxed by crying for need. Of course with the flood of "qualified" foreigners coming form the sub-continent, those nice starting salaries went away. Meanwhile those companies stock did very nicely.

You do realize that there was a special element in play at this time that was creating such a demand for pilots. An element that I haven't seen in a while and I'm pretty sure you don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand why it will probably never again exist at the regional level.

GROWTH!!!


Find me growth at a regional airline. That peak has come and gone. Unless they start building airports in the middle of the ocean while the gubment subsidizes it. You can catch a commercial flight into just about any airport in the world. So I wouldn't count on any future expansion.

And no, Gojetzzzzz doesn't count as a growing airline. They fly nothing but other airlines lost flying. How many regional carriers needed to shed flying for these guys to build an airline is sad. I think a lot of the flying lost is gone forever.

I don't think the key to a better profession with respect to pay, QOL and flat out respect lies in the supply and demand of pilots. The real key is in the demand for lift. Less seats in the air makes it easier for the airlines to charge more. Charging more generates more revenue for lesser overhead. In theory it would make it harder for the corporations to come up with excuses to pay you less.

I'm sure there are many views to that concept. Doesn't matter how short they are on pilots. You will never get paid more if they keep giving tickets away. I wouldn't bank on a shortage to help you out in the future.

Is there a single (legitimate) industry forecast that supports your contention that there is going to be a contraction in air traffic, or does every single industry and economic forecast portend huge increases in air traffic - both domestically and worldwide?

I saw something similar in the computer industry when I graduated college. Many friends of mine were getting 50k-60k jobs fresh out of college in the early 90s. Microsoft and others complained to congress and they got the J-1 Visas relaxed by crying for need. Of course with the flood of "qualified" foreigners coming form the sub-continent, those nice starting salaries went away. Meanwhile those companies stock did very nicely.

I'm certainly not the first person to throw the cabotage threat out there on these boards. I think cabotage is just as likely as reducing the mins.

Well, the fact of the matter is that there is no way an MCL regulation will be up and running anytime soon.

Don't know, and frankly don't care. I was simply answering the guy's question as to what the MCL is.......

The regionals are going to be hurting very soon. A year before the new rules kick in, the regionals are already limiting new hires to those at or near 1200-1500. When these guys run out, doubt there will be many more entering the pipeline. This is no mystery - these airlines must have plans to handle this, especially with all these new aircraft orders. There sure doesn't seem to be any panic, though.......

Ummmmm, yeah. That's what I was saying :cool:

The current trend is reduction in capacity both at the majors and regional level..... Based on current economic data the economy is limping along with no real shot in the arm in sight to get it really rolling. Even if things do turn around economically in the next 18-24 months I expect the majors to hold capacity discipline in check. There would be some increase in flying but a lot of that could be absorbed from the fat most are carrying.

The wild card is retirements..... We are coming up on the 5 year change from 60 to 65 so we will start seeing retirements come into check. Delta has a large number of retirements coming by the big numbers don't hit for a while. AA has a senior pilot group but they may be swallowed by other fish and thus their pilots would add to the excess already being carried.

The pilot game is a cycle of boom and bust but the airlines are trying to level out this cycle as much as they can. I have heard for 30 years how there is a pilot shortage coming but alas one never transpires.

The current trend is reduction in capacity both at the majors and regional level..... Based on current economic data the economy is limping along with no real shot in the arm in sight to get it really rolling. Even if things do turn around economically in the next 18-24 months I expect the majors to hold capacity discipline in check. There would be some increase in flying but a lot of that could be absorbed from the fat most are carrying.

The wild card is retirements..... We are coming up on the 5 year change from 60 to 65 so we will start seeing retirements come into check. Delta has a large number of retirements coming by the big numbers don't hit for a while. AA has a senior pilot group but they may be swallowed by other fish and thus their pilots would add to the excess already being carried.

The pilot game is a cycle of boom and bust but the airlines are trying to level out this cycle as much as they can. I have heard for 30 years how there is a pilot shortage coming but alas one never transpires.

While I do agree with most of what your saying. I also think that their may never be a true shortage of pilots but one thing a lot people do not think about is how fast the rest of the world's air travel is growing. Never before has air travel been in such high demand in places like Africa, India, China, etc. Its hard for some Americans to imagine but we are a small speck of sand compared to the rest of the world by population. The world population is still growing at a rapid pace (including the US) and there is only so much capacity that can be cut before the number of people on the planet exceed capacity.

Just my .02

I do? News to me. :confused:

I turned that job down. Yep, low-time (500/110), fresh out of the military, and I turned a flying job down! Why? I wouldn't have made enough to pay my bills. And I didn't want to live in West Virginia.

Sorry boss, you can go bark up another tree.

My apologies, good for you! I'll eat my words when I'm wrong.

Latest word I got from my congress critter is that, under pressure, the FAA is removing the "cutout" for civilian pilots.

Looks like even the mil guys will need at least 1,000 hours.

Nu

While I do agree with most of what your saying. I also think that their may never be a true shortage of pilots but one thing a lot people do not think about is how fast the rest of the world's air travel is growing. Never before has air travel been in such high demand in places like Africa, India, China, etc. Its hard for some Americans to imagine but we are a small speck of sand compared to the rest of the world by population. The world population is still growing at a rapid pace (including the US) and there is only so much capacity that can be cut before the number of people on the planet exceed capacity.

Just my .02

Additionally as airlines up gauge equipment size over the next decade (50's to 76's, 76's to 717's, etc etc) while there may be increases in total capacity in the US, the total number of pilots required will decrease (thus continuing the trend of making the industry more efficient). Look for global capacity to increase in developing areas of the world but US airlines will only be a small fraction of that growth.

So yes. While global air travel growth is forecast to grow wildly, very little will affect US airlines. Hence no pilot shortage at all, in spite of future retirements. However, a shortage a qualified AND quality applicants at the regional level is quite possible.

Latest word I got from my congress critter is that, under pressure, the FAA is removing the "cutout" for civilian pilots.

Looks like even the mil guys will need at least 1,000 hours.

Nu
I'm sorry, what do you mean "cutout"? The exception?

Additionally as airlines up gauge equipment size over the next decade (50's to 76's, 76's to 717's, etc etc) while there may be increases in total capacity in the US, the total number of pilots required will decrease (thus continuing the trend of making the industry more efficient). Look for global capacity to increase in developing areas of the world but US airlines will only be a small fraction of that growth.

So yes. While global air travel growth is forecast to grow wildly, very little will affect US airlines. Hence no pilot shortage at all, in spite of future retirements. However, a shortage a qualified AND quality applicants at the regional level is quite possible.

Sure we will see a reduction of pilots needed due to airlines going to larger RJ type aircraft but in the grand scheme of things pilot demand will start to go up after about a 5 year adjustment period. Pilots leaving regionals to go to mainline will absorb some of these reductions quickly. The US airline capacity will grow again soon as long as we can stay out of a world war or something along those lines. The US population is growing at about 2.5 million people a year so capacity will have to increase so people can fly. Shortage? Probably not. Steady need of pilots? No doubt.

Will part of the NPRM be to change the XC requirement for the ATP? As it stands you need 500XC 50NM straight line distance. This number is difficult to get to just flight instructing.

Latest word I got from my congress critter is that, under pressure, the FAA is removing the "cutout" for civilian pilots.

Looks like even the mil guys will need at least 1,000 hours.

Nu

A 1000 hours for military guys (Navy/AF) won't be a problem. You get winged with around 300 hours, then it's off to your first squadron. I left with slightly over 1000 hours.

Will part of the NPRM be to change the XC requirement for the ATP? As it stands you need 500XC 50NM straight line distance. This number is difficult to get to just flight instructing.

It's difficult for a reason. In theory, the more challenging the the task the better the reward. All of these short cuts in life have watered down the reward. Pilots have no self worth because they really have nothing to back it up any more. Some have more experience on Microsoft Flight Simulator than they do in a real airplane.

So rather than try and find another path due to the level of challenge. Recognize the reasoning for the challenge.

If all you have done in life is flight instruct, maybe you don't have what it takes (or what it should take) to become an airline pilot. I think that is where they were going with the detailed requirements to hold an ATP certificate.

Sorry to be blunt but I'm sure others can see the harsh truth in that.

Will part of the NPRM be to change the XC requirement for the ATP? As it stands you need 500XC 50NM straight line distance. This number is difficult to get to just flight instructing.

Maybe if you are working at a puppy-mill and have no motivation or ambition. If you are actively using your CFI and not finding it to be challenging and REWARDING, you're doing it wrong.

Maybe if you are working at a puppy-mill and have no motivation or ambition. If you are actively using your CFI and not finding it to be challenging and REWARDING, you're doing it wrong.

LOL, most people I know used their CFI for time-building and nothing else. Is it surprising that some people just don't have the desire/drive to teach? :eek:

I think what most opponents of this law are saying in regards to the higher times is that the arbitrary number (1500) is farther away than say 600-1000 which was what the regionals were hiring with for a long time. They did do anything wrong, and then overnight, the magic number was some how doubled. It adds a lot of pressure. Sure, it's an extra year of CFI, freight, etc. However, after putting forth the effort to earn the ratings, spend the money and the time, then worry about meeting certain requirements, it seems bleak to some.

I'd like to know how many regional pilots over the last few years were actually hired WITH an ATP?

Will part of the NPRM be to change the XC requirement for the ATP? As it stands you need 500XC 50NM straight line distance. This number is difficult to get to just flight instructing.

If it's difficult to get just instructing, perhaps you could look around for another way to get it.

It is one of the harder columns to fill as a CFI, but so what? Use the time you spend as a CFI to learn as much as possible. Get your CFII and see if you can get some IFR experience.

This is part of the benefit of the new law. The people who don't care enough to go out and get the experience won't be flying professionally. Not saying that's you, but something to think about.

Getting 500 hours xc on my way to getting my 1500 while CFIing was zero issue. If you do have an issue, you're doing it wrong.

Moonlighting to get charter work and the like is little problem if youve got any sense in networking!

After spending the better part of my day talking with HR departments and Chief pilots all over the country in everything from Survey/Photography to 135/91 charter outfits and some flight schools (literally about 40+ calls later)... I can say it is definitely hard times for a low-timer like myself. No one will even look at you for anything with less than 500TT (even a lot of CFI jobs... who also want at least a II and prefer a MEI) and most want 800 to 1000TT (for survey).

A lot of companies have downsized or are just not hiring new pilots because they have guys coming back to work for them who just got furloughed from airlines. A lot of flight schools aren't promising anything more than 40 flight hours per month. And just about everywhere has over 250+ resumes sitting in the stack on the desk. I'm willing to move anywhere... literally anywhere for a job to build time faster than the 20 hours a month I'm getting now. But they just don't seem to exist at the moment. I'm a bit discouraged to say the least. I'm going to keep plugging along and doing what I'm doing (what choice do I really have at this point?) but I think a lot has changed since you guys have been in these shoes (less than 500TT). Jobs simply aren't out there and even the ones that are hiring, like I said, have a stack of 250 resumes sitting on the Chief pilot's desk.

How are they going to fill seats at the regional level when it seems more difficult than ever to build time (without paying for it... which I don't think anyone should do after a certain point as a professional pilot)? I had one guy tell me I had a better chance of finding a job landscaping than in aviation right now and who's to say he's wrong? It gave me a chuckle when he said it, but after the conversation I thought about it for a minute... and the guy is right. Thats the sad state this industry is in today and its downright disheartening.

It sucks to know my friends got hired at 500TT with a regional just a year ago and now I'm stuck as a low-time pilot in an industry where the cards are getting more and more stacked against me every day (or so it would appear). I'm not saying that most of you didn't go through your own personal hardships to get where you are. And I'm not saying there are worse things out there. All I'm saying is it sucks for guys like me right now and it isn't the same as it was even just a year ago. For the record I support HR 5900 staying at 1500 hours. I think ultimately it will make the airline industry just a little bit better... but it does suck for us, the low-timers struggling to eek out a living.

After spending the better part of my day talking with HR departments and Chief pilots all over the country in everything from Survey/Photography to 135/91 charter outfits and some flight schools (literally about 40+ calls later)... I can say it is definitely hard times for a low-timer like myself. No one will even look at you for anything with less than 500TT (even a lot of CFI jobs... who also want at least a II and prefer a MEI) and most want 800 to 1000TT (for survey).

A lot of companies have downsized or are just not hiring new pilots because they have guys coming back to work for them who just got furloughed from airlines. A lot of flight schools aren't promising anything more than 40 flight hours per month. And just about everywhere has over 250+ resumes sitting in the stack on the desk. I'm willing to move anywhere... literally anywhere for a job to build time faster than the 20 hours a month I'm getting now. But they just don't seem to exist at the moment. I'm a bit discouraged to say the least. I'm going to keep plugging along and doing what I'm doing (what choice do I really have at this point?) but I think a lot has changed since you guys have been in these shoes (less than 500TT). Jobs simply aren't out there and even the ones that are hiring, like I said, have a stack of 250 resumes sitting on the Chief pilot's desk.

How are they going to fill seats at the regional level when it seems more difficult than ever to build time (without paying for it... which I don't think anyone should do after a certain point as a professional pilot)? I had one guy tell me I had a better chance of finding a job landscaping than in aviation right now and who's to say he's wrong? It gave me a chuckle when he said it, but after the conversation I thought about it for a minute... and the guy is right. Thats the sad state this industry is in today and its downright disheartening.

It sucks to know my friends got hired at 500TT with a regional just a year ago and now I'm stuck as a low-time pilot in an industry where the cards are getting more and more stacked against me every day (or so it would appear). I'm not saying that most of you didn't go through your own personal hardships to get where you are. And I'm not saying there are worse things out there. All I'm saying is it sucks for guys like me right now and it isn't the same as it was even just a year ago. For the record I support HR 5900 staying at 1500 hours. I think ultimately it will make the airline industry just a little bit better... but it does suck for us, the low-timers struggling to eek out a living.

Looks like you might have to get the I/I..it's really not that bad..just a glorified instrument ride..find a buddy to do it for the req'd 3 hours of dual..sounds like that will open a lot more doors for you. There's a lot of flight schools out there with foreign contracts that will fly your rear off.

After spending the better part of my day talking with HR departments and Chief pilots all over the country in everything from Survey/Photography to 135/91 charter outfits and some flight schools (literally about 40+ calls later)... I can say it is definitely hard times for a low-timer like myself. No one will even look at you for anything with less than 500TT (even a lot of CFI jobs... who also want at least a II and prefer a MEI) and most want 800 to 1000TT (for survey).

A lot of companies have downsized or are just not hiring new pilots because they have guys coming back to work for them who just got furloughed from airlines. A lot of flight schools aren't promising anything more than 40 flight hours per month. And just about everywhere has over 250+ resumes sitting in the stack on the desk. I'm willing to move anywhere... literally anywhere for a job to build time faster than the 20 hours a month I'm getting now. But they just don't seem to exist at the moment. I'm a bit discouraged to say the least. I'm going to keep plugging along and doing what I'm doing (what choice do I really have at this point?) but I think a lot has changed since you guys have been in these shoes (less than 500TT). Jobs simply aren't out there and even the ones that are hiring, like I said, have a stack of 250 resumes sitting on the Chief pilot's desk.

How are they going to fill seats at the regional level when it seems more difficult than ever to build time (without paying for it... which I don't think anyone should do after a certain point as a professional pilot)? I had one guy tell me I had a better chance of finding a job landscaping than in aviation right now and who's to say he's wrong? It gave me a chuckle when he said it, but after the conversation I thought about it for a minute... and the guy is right. Thats the sad state this industry is in today and its downright disheartening.

It sucks to know my friends got hired at 500TT with a regional just a year ago and now I'm stuck as a low-time pilot in an industry where the cards are getting more and more stacked against me every day (or so it would appear). I'm not saying that most of you didn't go through your own personal hardships to get where you are. And I'm not saying there are worse things out there. All I'm saying is it sucks for guys like me right now and it isn't the same as it was even just a year ago. For the record I support HR 5900 staying at 1500 hours. I think ultimately it will make the airline industry just a little bit better... but it does suck for us, the low-timers struggling to eek out a living.


Things are about the same as they were in 1997 when I was in your shoes except I was paid $9 per hour (about 12.50 today). I had over 1500 hours when I got my first 135 job.

Things are about the same as they were in 1997 when I was in your shoes except I was paid $9 per hour (about 12.50 today). I had over 1500 hours when I got my first 135 job.


Granted... I am referring more to the previous few years. I know a lot of you guys went through your own hardships during your time in my shoes. But I dare say more jobs were probably offering more hours than 40 p/month. It can't have always been this way, or else how did everyone get where they are? And my post was a bit of a gripe (I'm frustrated, I'll admit it), but what I'm getting at is this: If it has become this difficult for low-timers like myself to find a job that offers time or money (and I have a lot of quality time for my TT... 185ME, 15Turb, 95CxC, almost 100IFR) ... how are the regionals even going to get by the next few years? I just don't see how they aren't going to have to park planes or start training programs of their own.

.... No one will even look at you for anything with less than 500TT (even a lot of CFI jobs... who also want at least a II and prefer a MEI) and most want 800 to 1000TT (for survey).

.... A lot of flight schools aren't promising anything more than 40 flight hours per month. And just about everywhere has over 250+ resumes sitting in the stack on the desk. I'm willing to move anywhere... literally anywhere for a job to build time faster than the 20 hours a month I'm getting now. But they just don't seem to exist at the moment. I'm a bit discouraged to say the least. I'm going to keep plugging along and doing what I'm doing (what choice do I really have at this point?) but I think a lot has changed since you guys have been in these shoes (less than 500TT).

So you are currently building 20 hrs per month at your current job.
If I remember correctly - some of those hours are Multi-turbine too in the KA200? That is some of the hardest time to build in program. It seems to me that except for building your TT at a quicker pace, you are doing much better than many who are building that 40 hours a month that you are laminating yet all in a C-152/172 and who are praying for the chance to build multi time, much less multi-turbine time.

Maybe things aren't quite as bad as you think they are! :);)

I had one guy tell me I had a better chance of finding a job landscaping than in aviation right now and who's to say he's wrong? It gave me a chuckle when he said it, but after the conversation I thought about it for a minute... and the guy is right. Thats the sad state this industry is in today and its downright disheartening.
What part of landscaping? Is this the part where someone says that the world needs ditch diggers (or in this case flower bed diggers) too?
It very well may be easier to get into some form of landscaping. Piloting , for the most part, isn't manual labor. It is HARDER to get into and to make a successful bid of it as a profession.

USMCFLYR

Granted... I am referring more to the previous few years. I know a lot of you guys went through your own hardships during your time in my shoes. But I dare say more jobs were probably offering more hours than 40 p/month. It can't have always been this way, or else how did everyone get where they are? And my post was a bit of a gripe (I'm frustrated, I'll admit it), but what I'm getting at is this: If it has become this difficult for low-timers like myself to find a job that offers time or money (and I have a lot of quality time for my TT... 185ME, 15Turb, 95CxC, almost 100IFR) ... how are the regionals even going to get by the next few years? I just don't see how they aren't going to have to park planes or start training programs of their own.

My first CFI job I got about forty per month. A few months later, I took the "Holy Grail" of CFI jobs where I averaged about forty or more per WEEK. After a year of that, I was ready to slit my wrists!

185ME, 15Turb, 100IFR and under 500 TT????????? And you are complaining?????

Well KA flights have dried up a little bit for me as of the past month... I tweaked my back about a month ago and cancelled a flight (gave them a few days notice) and I haven't been called since then even though I'm still on the list... although hopefully that will change soon.

And like I said... I wouldn't be complaining if my "useful times" were getting me somewhere faster haha. I'm grateful for the experience I've received in such little time. But that is exactly my point... if I'm not finding a job, how hard must it be for a lot of other guys in my shoes?

Well KA flights have dried up a little bit for me as of the past month... I tweaked my back about a month ago and cancelled a flight (gave them a few days notice) and I haven't been called since then even though I'm still on the list... although hopefully that will change soon.

And like I said... I wouldn't be complaining if my "useful times" were getting me somewhere faster haha. I'm grateful for the experience I've received in such little time. But that is exactly my point... if I'm not finding a job, how hard must it be for a lot of other guys in my shoes?

Get your II!! It's cheap and you're not useful as a cfi if you dont... MEI even better. Below 500 hours there are the fewest opportunities, but the II and MEI add to those big time. Opportunities grow greatly as your time increases. I had to get over 1700 hrs mostly CFIing to get picked up by a regional 10 years ago. You can do it, too.

Get your II!! It's cheap and you're not useful as a cfi if you dont... MEI even better. Below 500 hours there are the fewest opportunities, but the II and MEI add to those big time. Opportunities grow greatly as your time increases. I had to get over 1700 hrs mostly CFIing to get picked up by a regional 10 years ago. You can do it, too.

I'm on it! :cool: Both of my instructors have been gone for a couple of weeks (vacation and job interviews) so my CFI has taken a little longer than I anticipated... but I should be done with the CFI by the end of the month and I'm planning on hopping right into my CFII after that. I'm trying not to take longer than 2 or 3 weeks for that either so hopefully I'll have both by the end of next month.

Well KA flights have dried up a little bit for me as of the past month... I tweaked my back about a month ago and cancelled a flight (gave them a few days notice) and I haven't been called since then even though I'm still on the list... although hopefully that will change soon.

And like I said... I wouldn't be complaining if my "useful times" were getting me somewhere faster haha. I'm grateful for the experience I've received in such little time. But that is exactly my point... if I'm not finding a job, how hard must it be for a lot of other guys in my shoes?
Well....this is where I would focus A LOT of my time and energy right now if I were you when I wasn't trying to get my CFI/II/MEI.
Consider it the easy part of networking since you have already got a foot in the door. Flying a King Air - I understand how *hard* it can be to get in and out of the thing, but for such a time building opportunity getting the holy grail of low time (multi-turbine), it would take more than a *tweaked back* to put me on the sideline :eek:

Get a massage, go try acupuncture, see a Chiropractor, take Aleve, see a regular doctor if you must - but get fixed and back on the fly list!

USMCFLYR

The important thing to remember is that the rules are changing for a reason. The line had to be drawn. And by the way it needed to be moved to a more acceptable place. If regional airlines and truly motivated people did the right thing the govmt wouldn't have to step in and regulate it. Seems like when people get themselves in trouble by not doing the right thing, the regulation put in place to protect those people from doing it again can be somewhat overkill.

Bottom line is that the rule isn't going to be scaled back for you as the pilot because it's a little more challenging (not impossible) to build your experience.

Next thing you know you will have some heart issues that need to be addressed by surgery. You go looking for a good guy to do it and find that the success rate has fallen substantially because the surgeons were less experienced because they had trouble finding work initially. So the hospitals just felt bad for the guys and needed some peeps to fill in lowering their standards of the practice. :eek:

Hmmm...........sounds like a crappy scenario either way for some.

The important thing to remember is that the rules are changing for a reason. The line had to be drawn. And by the way it needed to be moved to a more acceptable place. If regional airlines and truly motivated people did the right thing the govmt wouldn't have to step in and regulate it. Seems like when people get themselves in trouble by not doing the right thing, the regulation put in place to protect those people from doing it again can be somewhat overkill.

Bottom line is that the rule isn't going to be scaled back for you as the pilot because it's a little more challenging (not impossible) to build your experience.

Next thing you know you will have some heart issues that need to be addressed by surgery. You go looking for a good guy to do it and find that the success rate has fallen substantially because the surgeons were less experienced because they had trouble finding work initially. So the hospitals just felt bad for the guys and needed some peeps to fill in lowering their standards of the practice. :eek:

Hmmm...........sounds like a crappy scenario either way for some.


pilots struggling to find work due to experience requirements=airlines not finding pilots to fly their airplanes.
its a different way to say the same thing. the airlines wont let it happen. "plane and simple"

pilots struggling to find work due to experience requirements=airlines not finding pilots to fly their airplanes.
its a different way to say the same thing. the airlines wont let it happen. "plane and simple"

This. People can talk all day about the merits of requiring an FO to have an ATP/1500 hours for safety, etc., but the bottom line is that in one year or less the regional airline system will be in deep trouble. Who cares? Good? Regionals now provide more than half of all domestic lift.

Regionals have generally been hiring from between 500 and 1000 for years. They will find a way to do it again before Aug 2013.

This. People can talk all day about the merits of requiring an FO to have an ATP/1500 hours for safety, etc., but the bottom line is that in one year or less the regional airline system will be in deep trouble. Who cares? Good? Regionals now provide more than half of all domestic lift.

Regionals have generally been hiring from between 500 and 1000 for years. They will find a way to do it again before Aug 2013.

Well said! Its not what everyone wants to hear but it is the truth. Deep pockets in DC and its an election year!!

Maybe one day when we people smarten up and start demanding what they are worth with the regionals have a tough time hiring.

There are WAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYY too many qualified guys on the streets waiting to come back and work for peanuts. By the time they use up all the furloughs and guys hiding in the cracks, the flight schools will catch up and the possibility of a staffing issue will be solved. Then we start the process of over-staffing all over again.

Sounds like fun. I may or may not see you there.

It can't have always been this way, or else how did everyone get where they are?

Not bagging on you, but "back in the day" people understood that they would have to probably have to instruct and starve for two years before they found a 135 job, then starve for another year or two before the made it to a "commuter" (as they used to be known), then spend another several years there before they might have the opportunity to move on to a ACMI, major carrier, or corporate job. Note that barely getting by for four years or so was pretty much just accepted as the price of entry. The difference then was there was real career progression - not so much now with commuters having morphed into regionals and then spreading everywhere like crabgrass.

Too many people have entered the profession having only looked at the last couple of years, and have come to feel entitled to an RJ seat a 500 hours (again, not directed at you).

Well said! Its not what everyone wants to hear but it is the truth. Deep pockets in DC and its an election year!!

Sad but plausible. One can only hope that when that douche from the RAA (Roger Cohen?) starts flapping his gums, that there is a very loud cry pointing out that the only shortage that exists is of experienced pilots willing to work for $25,000 per annum.

Maybe one day when we people smarten up and start demanding what they are worth with the regionals have a tough time hiring.

There are WAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYY too many qualified guys on the streets waiting to come back and work for peanuts. By the time they use up all the furloughs and guys hiding in the cracks, the flight schools will catch up and the possibility of a staffing issue will be solved. Then we start the process of over-staffing all over again.

Sounds like fun. I may or may not see you there.

I disagree that there are many pilots on the streets waiting to work for peanuts.

I agree that there are many pilots that are available to fly for the regionals, but not for current wages my friend.

I currently fly for a 91 op doing aerial survey that pays way more than a regional FO could ever hope to make. Would I like to fly for the regionals? Yes. But I will not insult myself by accepting their wages. I have a family to provide for, and i know many very qualified pilots that are in my same situation.

So until they start ponying up some money they will be limited to the CFI out of a flight school that has no real world flight experience to speak of, doesn't know what it really means to work hard for a living, and thinks they are making huge amounts of money at their new regional FO job because mom and dad are still paying their student loans for them...

I disagree that there are many pilots on the streets waiting to work for peanuts.

I agree that there are many pilots that are available to fly for the regionals, but not for current wages my friend.

I currently fly for a 91 op doing aerial survey that pays way more than a regional FO could ever hope to make. Would I like to fly for the regionals? Yes. But I will not insult myself by accepting their wages. I have a family to provide for, and i know many very qualified pilots that are in my same situation.

So until they start ponying up some money they will be limited to the CFI out of a flight school that has no real world flight experience to speak of, doesn't know what it really means to work hard for a living, and thinks they are making huge amounts of money at their new regional FO job because mom and dad are still paying their student loans for them...

I like the way you think. Please pass it on.......

The only reason I speculate on the amount of pilots willing to work for food is because of the Gojetz principle. I need not speak further or we shall see a lock down.

Very good discussions going on here. 1500 hours is tough to gain from instructing. No doubt about it. I only have 900 dual given and I loved teaching, but being in the regional is 4x easier to rack up flight hours. So my condolences to the low hour cfis out there.

That being said, there was a period before the crazy regional hirings that the regionals wouldn't even look at you until you had 1500 hours. Very true, but during that period, it was a whole lot easier to find a cfi gig or part 135 gigs. Airnet for example let you ride sic in a baron and log 1200 hours until you can be the pic. So it's apples and oranges when you compare how it is now, compared to couple of years ago. The enrollment is at the lowest rate ever. All these mom and pops flight schools and small charters shut down completely. The ones that managed to stay open are quite selective or it's one of those "bring your own students" type of deal.

1500 hour rule will be great for the industry no doubt. Some of you that are such strong advocates forgot you had a wet commercial when you first got hired shouldn't look down at the current cfis or time builders. I had 600/250 back in early '08 and had offers from 3 regionals. Granted I was furloughed 2.5 years and went back to instructing, nowadays you're not even worth a rejection email with those times. I thought I was lucky but ended up paying my dues. It sucked... I would rather be on ready rsv everyday than to be a part time instructor flying 20-30 hours a month. I could've went to regional when I had 350 hours but didn't feel ready and wanted to teach a little more. One of them even offered 5k sign on bonus. Worse choice ever by staying few more months. Seniority is everything... But that's in hindsight.

So many ups and downs in this industry. Grab the opportunity when you can but try not to step on each other in the process. Learn to grind it out. Find a side gig. I learned to daytrade while I was furloughed. You think handling an engine out is scary? Try making or losing few thousand a day trading. Even now I try to fly the least as possible so I can daytrade to pay bills. Regional salary is a joke no doubt. But like many of you, I've invested a decade of my life and over 120k. I want some return on investment before I decide to bail out or stay.

Best wishes to all of us!! May there really be a shortage!!!! Regionals finally go away and we all get a seat in the majors making 6 figures working 10 days a month with 2 houses, 3 ex wives/husbands and 5 child aligmonies and can't retired until 67 because of these obligations.

iPhone. Go easy on me grammar and spelling nazis :)

Very good discussions going on here. 1500 hours is tough to gain from instructing. No doubt about it. I only have 900 dual given and I loved teaching, but being in the regional is 4x easier to rack up flight hours. So my condolences to the low hour cfis out there.

That being said, there was a period before the crazy regional hirings that the regionals wouldn't even look at you until you had 1500 hours. Very true, but during that period, it was a whole lot easier to find a cfi gig or part 135 gigs. Airnet for example let you ride sic in a baron and log 1200 hours until you can be the pic. So it's apples and oranges when you compare how it is now, compared to couple of years ago. The enrollment is at the lowest rate ever. All these mom and pops flight schools and small charters shut down completely. The ones that managed to stay open are quite selective or it's one of those "bring your own students" type of deal.

1500 hour rule will be great for the industry no doubt. Some of you that are such strong advocates forgot you had a wet commercial when you first got hired shouldn't look down at the current cfis or time builders. I had 600/250 back in early '08 and had offers from 3 regionals. Granted I was furloughed 2.5 years and went back to instructing, nowadays you're not even worth a rejection email with those times. I thought I was lucky but ended up paying my dues. It sucked... I would rather be on ready rsv everyday than to be a part time instructor flying 20-30 hours a month. I could've went to regional when I had 350 hours but didn't feel ready and wanted to teach a little more. One of them even offered 5k sign on bonus. Worse choice ever by staying few more months. Seniority is everything... But that's in hindsight.

So many ups and downs in this industry. Grab the opportunity when you can but try not to step on each other in the process. Learn to grind it out. Find a side gig. I learned to daytrade while I was furloughed. You think handling an engine out is scary? Try making or losing few thousand a day trading. Even now I try to fly the least as possible so I can daytrade to pay bills. Regional salary is a joke no doubt. But like many of you, I've invested a decade of my life and over 120k. I want some return on investment before I decide to bail out or stay.

Best wishes to all of us!! May there really be a shortage!!!! Regionals finally go away and we all get a seat in the majors making 6 figures working 10 days a month with 2 houses, 3 ex wives/husbands and 5 child aligmonies and can't retired until 67 because of these obligations.

iPhone. Go easy on me grammar and spelling nazis :) I can understand all of these points, however, for what it's worth, put me down as one for the ATP requirement as it presently is not the one next year which I believe is watered down. Also, not to badmouth a dead man, but I read the NTSB report on FLT 3407 and that Captain had a history of failed checkrides (at least 4???). I could easily be accused of running a relaxed cockpit, but only above FL180, and with everyone thoughly briefed, and complying with SOP for approach operations in that type of WX. Been into BUF many times and the WX can change drastically between the FAF and DH (DA). Of course, once you're inside the FAF, you get to go take a peek!:)

One thing rarely talked about... From the FAA NPRM:
"Based on a 35-year career, the FAA estimated the total cost of a one-year
delay in a part 121 pilot’s career to be $130,298, with a present value cost of
$67,598.16. The FAA estimated the total cost of a one-third year delay in a part 121 pilot’s career to be $43,433, with a
present value cost of $21,226.17. In order to put these results on a basis comparable to the 20-year estimates of the other costs and of the estimated benefits of this proposed rule, the present value cost is annualized to $5,221 per year for a one-year delay and $1,639 per year for a one-third year delay. With these estimates, the FAA calculated the total cost of the ATP certificate 1,500-hour requirement for the estimation period 2013–2032. These calculations are shown in Table 11 of the initial regulatory evaluation."

Basically, the idea being, if it takes longer to get to the airlines, there is a cost to the sub 1500 hr pilot. Remember to demand a $130,298 sign on bonus to compensate for the loss in career earnings.

One thing rarely talked about... From the FAA NPRM:
"Based on a 35-year career, the FAA estimated the total cost of a one-year
delay in a part 121 pilot’s career to be $130,298, with a present value cost of
$67,598.16. The FAA estimated the total cost of a one-third year delay in a part 121 pilot’s career to be $43,433, with a
present value cost of $21,226.17. In order to put these results on a basis comparable to the 20-year estimates of the other costs and of the estimated benefits of this proposed rule, the present value cost is annualized to $5,221 per year for a one-year delay and $1,639 per year for a one-third year delay. With these estimates, the FAA calculated the total cost of the ATP certificate 1,500-hour requirement for the estimation period 2013–2032. These calculations are shown in Table 11 of the initial regulatory evaluation."

Basically, the idea being, if it takes longer to get to the airlines, there is a cost to the sub 1500 hr pilot. Remember to demand a $130,298 sign on bonus to compensate for the loss in career earnings.

What in the world is this based off of? If I understand correctly, this is saying that since you have to actually learn how to become a pilot now instead of jumping right into a jet with your bubba, binky, and juice box you are loosing out on potential earnings.

So what happened to guys 10 years ago when only a small percentage went to the regionals with under 2500 hours? It's only been in the past 7 years or so that the regionals have figured out how to grow exponentially at the cost of the employees opening up many positions for flying. Therefore the job potential never existed.

So even if you can get to the job quicker now, it takes much longer to actually earn an acceptable wage to even pay off the initial investment of becoming a pilot in the first place. It was normal in the past to see a legacy carrier or major after chugging away at the job for 10 years. Now you will be lucky to get off of reserve as an FO at a regional after 10 years.

Sounds like a lot of lost potential to me:rolleyes:.

Of course I may have absolutely missed the point of that all together.

What in the world is this based off of? If I understand correctly, this is saying that since you have to actually learn how to become a pilot now instead of jumping right into a jet with your bubba, binky, and juice box you are loosing out on potential earnings.

So what happened to guys 10 years ago when only a small percentage went to the regionals with under 2500 hours? It's only been in the past 7 years or so that the regionals have figured out how to grow exponentially at the cost of the employees opening up many positions for flying. Therefore the job potential never existed.

So even if you can get to the job quicker now, it takes much longer to actually earn an acceptable wage to even pay off the initial investment of becoming a pilot in the first place. It was normal in the past to see a legacy carrier or major after chugging away at the job for 10 years. Now you will be lucky to get off of reserve as an FO at a regional after 10 years.

Sounds like a lot of lost potential to me:rolleyes:.

Of course I may have absolutely missed the point of that all together.

Were you hired at a regional with 1500 + and an ATP?

Were you hired at a regional with 1500 + and an ATP?

I was. In 1996 at MESA you needed 2000 TT. 500 multi and your ATP just to interview. To get that I did 3 years as a CFI, and 1 year flying night cargo in a Baron. Thats just the way it use to be.

I was. In 1996 at MESA you needed 2000 TT. 500 multi and your ATP just to interview. To get that I did 3 years as a CFI, and 1 year flying night cargo in a Baron. Thats just the way it use to be.

That was also in 1996 when their weren't any RJ's and regional airlines were in fact regional. There were probably a fraction of the total number of available seats/jobs than today. Of course the competitive minimums were higher.

That was also in 1996 when their weren't any RJ's and regional airlines were in fact regional. There were probably a fraction of the total number of available seats/jobs than today. Of course the competitive minimums were higher.


Mesa had Fokker 70 jet aircraft in 1996 before any RJ's were on the property. I know because I was there. The Fokker's were on a different operating certificate own by Mesa whereas pilots were allowed to transition into the various divisions. Mesa was requiring the ATP, 2000/500, somewhere in that range with part 135 experience in which I had at the time. Comair was the first regional flying the RJ in the early 90's.

That was also in 1996 when their weren't any RJ's and regional airlines were in fact regional.

Comair had the RJ. I believe they got it sometime in '91. Not 100% sure on that date but they definitely had them well before any other commuter airline out there. Not to mention the fact that Comair air started the whole PFT sham.

Comair had the RJ. I believe they got it sometime in '91. Not 100% sure on that date but they definitely had them well before any other commuter airline out there. Not to mention the fact that Comair air started the whole PFT sham.

You're right. My point is that RJ's weren't as common place as they are today. 1996 = less jobs. Less jobs + a lot of people wanting those jobs = higher mins.

That wasn't the case the last decade when mins dropped drastically.

What was the pay while CFIing (adjusted for inflation)? What was the starting pay at Mesa? (adjusted for inflation)?

H.R. 5900 will be a joke. My airline is already handing out ATP's like candy. It's a regular recurrent with stalls and steep turns added in. An oral? Lol, my private pilot oral was infinitely more in depth. It's pathetic. We had a chance to take a step in the right direction as pilots, and improve this career. On the other hand, aside from ALPA lobbying, I'm not sure exactly how we would have accomplished anything with how in bed the airlines are with the FAA. Safety costs money, and the dollar value of life is well below the cost of these types of changes to the industry. (In the FAA's and management's eyes.)

We're finally making progress towards getting tighter qualifications for airlines pilots and somebody's always gotta try and figure out how to get around it. It's bad enough when the airlines do it, but when it just beats the heck out of me when I hear PILOTS whining about it.

Has there been any news from the FAA regarding the exceptions of the ATP rule for military time and/or graduates of accredited aviation universities? I fall under both categories but I'm short of 1500tt and I'm hoping something becomes official real soon.

Thanks in advance!

No yet, but realize the FAA could do nothing and just let the law takeover--an ATP with current standards.

Believe, the bureaucracy loves to avoid decisions.

GF