Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




CaptainBigWood
08-17-2012, 04:41 AM
Tell us the Story.
Would like to hear the details of how groups were integrated over the past 50 years. Also include sale routes such as Braniff to American, PanAm to United, Flying Tigers to FedEx. Discuss the current integrations. NWA/DL, UA/CO, US/AWA, SW/AT.
Also include the following from your viewpoint:
All Pilots treated Fairly
It was POS totally unfair.
It was a great windfall.
Forums are a great source of information and a safe place to vent.


galaxy flyer
08-17-2012, 06:57 AM
Back to the regularly scheduled thread,

Panagra route sale to BN: nada, zippo integration.

BN route sale to EA: nada, zippo

EA route sale to AA: see above

South American route sales are unblemished by pilot integration back 50 years

GF

AutoEverything
08-17-2012, 07:14 AM
It's good that you want to learn about your own industry, congrats on taking the first step in actually learning some history.

The first step is to read Hard Landing by Thomas Petzinger Jr.


Flyby1206
08-17-2012, 07:23 AM
As far as current integrations go, NWA/DL was the smoothest and fastest by far. I am guessing a big part of that is DL only had unionization for the pilot group and the DAL/NWA ALPA groups played nice to get things done.

US/HP is on the opposite end of the spectrum. I dont see any way for them to successfully integrate outside of a merger with a larger company (AA). Parker is making money hand over fist while the two groups are in deadlock operating under huge bankruptcy concessions from a decade ago.

Flint Stone
08-17-2012, 07:33 AM
It's good that you want to learn about your own industry, congrats on taking the first step in actually learning some history.

The first step is to read Hard Landing by Thomas Petzinger Jr.

Sounds like he wants information in a specific order for a class project!

Mesabah
08-17-2012, 07:50 AM
The reason NWA and Delta went so smoothly is because they both mostly viewed themselves as equals. That's the key to a successful integration.

R57 relay
08-17-2012, 08:53 AM
The reason NWA and Delta went so smoothly is because they both mostly viewed themselves as equals. That's the key to a successful integration.

It thought it was because the learned from the US/HP disaster and the company was willing to pony up some cash first for a joint contract, then do a SLI.

cactiboss
08-17-2012, 10:40 AM
The only thing learned in the u/hp integration is never to allow a seniority list to be done before a single agreement. Had the awa/u pilots had a single contract before the award this would have never happened.

lolwut
08-17-2012, 09:12 PM
Everyone knows that since the beginning of airline mergers that date of hire has been the golden standard.

gloopy
08-17-2012, 09:43 PM
Everyone knows that since the beginning of airline mergers that date of hire has been the golden standard.

trolololo!

jwes
08-17-2012, 10:08 PM
It's good that you want to learn about your own industry, congrats on taking the first step in actually learning some history.

The first step is to read Hard Landing by Thomas Petzinger Jr.

Great book, a little dry at first but really delves into the CEOs back in the day. I wish he wrote another one but more current

R57 relay
08-18-2012, 08:40 AM
Had the awa/u pilots had a single contract before the award this would have never happened.

I agree with you there, but that goes back to my point of DL management being willing to pony up the cash. Parker wasn't. He wanted to squeeze every last nickle out of LOA 93 and THEN put a substandard contract on the table-The Kirby Proposal. Had been straight up and put a decent contract on the table before the Nic came out, this would of never happened. I don't think it would even have had to be industry average, just better than the Kirby. We wasn't, and that left the door open to the rest of the diaster.

cactiboss
08-18-2012, 09:37 AM
I agree with you there, but that goes back to my point of DL management being willing to pony up the cash. Parker wasn't. He wanted to squeeze every last nickle out of LOA 93 and THEN put a substandard contract on the table-The Kirby Proposal. Had been straight up and put a decent contract on the table before the Nic came out, this would of never happened. I don't think it would even have had to be industry average, just better than the Kirby. We wasn't, and that left the door open to the rest of the diaster.
Come on dude, stop the lying. The contract was in close out phase when the east walked away and threw our union out. The east pilots handed Parker his "nickles" he didn't even have to lift a finger.

AZFlyer
08-18-2012, 10:58 AM
Here we go again....

Climbto450
08-18-2012, 11:51 AM
Come on dude, stop the lying. The contract was in close out phase when the east walked away and threw our union out. The east pilots handed Parker his "nickles" he didn't even have to lift a finger.
Ding, Ding, Ding. What round is this anyway? Just when this post got interesting someone had to go there.

CaptainBigWood
08-19-2012, 02:49 PM
"Hard Landing" thanks just put it on my Kindle.

Well I started the thread I will tell the story as I remember:
US Air was a combination of Allegheny and Mohawk 1972 pilots integrated DOH.
US Air/PSA 1987 integrated DOH.
US Air/ Piedmont DOH arbitration by Kagel. Airlines were roughly same size. Some protection on 767 for Piedmont Pilots. Interesting point is that out of top 1000 DOH only 100 were Piedmont. Piedmont pilots proposed slotting with a great deal of emphasis on fleet brought into the merger.
Piedmont purchased Empire Airlines operating F28-4000 80 seats and Metro-Liner props in 1985. Empire pilots were stapled to the bottom, they did get an instant pay raise and a fully funded DB pension. Bad feeling, should have been handled better.
USAirways/ Trump Shuttle 1997. The seniority was some formula of slotting. The Trump Captains were former Eastern. Eastern Airlines liquidated in 1991. Interesting point is that the most senior Trump pilot placed one number junior to a USAir pilot who was not flying while serving as a high level officer for ALPA.
USAirways/America West 2007. Pilots couldn't agree on seniority so they agreed on binding arbitration. The following is a quote from Wikipedia:
"East" pilots were dissatisfied with the results of binding arbitration when the arbitrator's ruling placed all active former America West pilots, including their most junior pilot, who had been hired only three months previous to the merger, ahead of furloughed US Airways pilots with up to seventeen years of service. The former US Airways pilots petitioned the National Mediation Board to conduct a vote to determine whether to replace their union. East pilots (3,200) outnumbered west pilots (1,800) and the proposed union's president stated that the union has a sufficient number of requests to call a vote according to National Mediation Board regulations.[47] The new union would be called the US Airline Pilots Association (USAPA). On April 17, 2008, USAPA was voted in as the sole bargaining agent for the pilots of US Airways, East and West."
Conclusion: The East reneged on binding arbitration. I personally have a great deal of problem in breaking one's word. Pilots should have been able to work it out without getting the courts involved. Both pilot groups are adversely effected on a DOH list and the NIC arbitrated list. A compromise is a logical solution. There might even be a better working conditions if they could agree to a compromise. Are pilots ever logical when it comes to seniority?

cactiboss
08-19-2012, 04:53 PM
"Hard Landing" thanks just put it on my Kindle.

Well I started the thread I will tell the story as I remember:
US Air was a combination of Allegheny and Mohawk 1972 pilots integrated DOH.
US Air/PSA 1987 integrated DOH.
US Air/ Piedmont DOH arbitration by Kagel. Airlines were roughly same size. Some protection on 767 for Piedmont Pilots. Interesting point is that out of top 1000 DOH only 100 were Piedmont. Piedmont pilots proposed slotting with a great deal of emphasis on fleet brought into the merger.
Piedmont purchased Empire Airlines operating F28-4000 80 seats and Metro-Liner props in 1985. Empire pilots were stapled to the bottom, they did get an instant pay raise and a fully funded DB pension. Bad feeling, should have been handled better.
USAirways/ Trump Shuttle 1997. The seniority was some formula of slotting. The Trump Captains were former Eastern. Eastern Airlines liquidated in 1991. Interesting point is that the most senior Trump pilot placed one number junior to a USAir pilot who was not flying while serving as a high level officer for ALPA.
USAirways/America West 2007. Pilots couldn't agree on seniority so they agreed on binding arbitration. The following is a quote from Wikipedia:
"East" pilots were dissatisfied with the results of binding arbitration when the arbitrator's ruling placed all active former America West pilots, including their most junior pilot, who had been hired only three months previous to the merger, ahead of furloughed US Airways pilots with up to seventeen years of service. The former US Airways pilots petitioned the National Mediation Board to conduct a vote to determine whether to replace their union. East pilots (3,200) outnumbered west pilots (1,800) and the proposed union's president stated that the union has a sufficient number of requests to call a vote according to National Mediation Board regulations.[47] The new union would be called the US Airline Pilots Association (USAPA). On April 17, 2008, USAPA was voted in as the sole bargaining agent for the pilots of US Airways, East and West."
Conclusion: The East reneged on binding arbitration. I personally have a great deal of problem in breaking one's word. Pilots should have been able to work it out without getting the courts involved. Both pilot groups are adversely effected on a DOH list and the NIC arbitrated list. A compromise is a logical solution. There might even be a better working conditions if they could agree to a compromise. Are pilots ever logical when it comes to seniority?
What about fedex/flying tigers, Dal/nwa, aa/twa, paa/dal, f9/republic etc. As for the Nicolau award, did you forget the 517 east pilots that were placed on top of the number one west pilot, effectively moving him from #1 to 518 ? Did you realize there was only 218 widebody captains at usair at time of merger? There would have been no problem had the east lived with the deal they made like every other single pilot group you mentioned.

tsquare
08-19-2012, 05:19 PM
It's good that you want to learn about your own industry, congrats on taking the first step in actually learning some history.

The first step is to read Hard Landing by Thomas Petzinger Jr.

Great book... +1 on the post.

Sniper
08-19-2012, 06:14 PM
"Hard Landing" thanks just put it on my Kindle.

. . . The following is a quote from Wikipedia:

. . . Are pilots ever logical when it comes to seniority?

3 comments:
#1 - Hard Landing, great book, a book about the business of airlines. EVERY pilot should read it. The true story about how the industry REALLY is/was.

#2 - Wikipedia is a only as accurate as those who contribute to it. No need to quote a wiki on this topic on this forum, we're all familiar with every detail. Lets not go down this path on this thread - this topic is well worn on this forum already.

#3 - Pilots are entirely logical when it comes to seniority - pilots want what's best for them. If merging with a lower longevity group, we want DOH, the only fair way to go. If we have low longevity, merging with a relative seniority is fair, obviously. If you bring no WB's to the merger, than slots are silly, and the opposite if you are the WB airline. If your company is more successful or pilots are better paid, than 'career expectations' need to be honored to be fair and equitable. To a airline in difficulty or one with lower compensation, what are the expectations of any pilot in the airline industry - furlough, CH 11, and, if you're lucky, retire still married to the same gal with some of your retirement left; the state of an airline's financials at one moment is irrelevant to seniority over a career, and it would be unfair and inequitable to take such matters into account.

Game theory is a great topic to look at in mergers - making the decision that is best for you is much more complicated than simply going after whatever gets you the highest seniority number in an integration.

My personal opinion - things seem to always go better when the pilot group isn't divided; 'fixing' perceived slights (and preventing them from being changed) distracts pilots over their entire career, resulting in a lesser overall outcome. Red book/green book/blue book, NWA guys?

alfaromeo
08-19-2012, 06:16 PM
The real answer is that it is too complicated to discuss in even a few pages. Seniority integrations have changed over time and paraphrasing an arbitrator, each case turns on its own facts.

In general, there have been date based integrations (date of hire, longevity), status and category integrations, straight ratio integrations, and staple jobs. There have also been combinations of all of the above. ALPA has a 300+ page document that contains a brief history of integrations. Maybe you can contact them and see if they will give you a copy.

cactiboss
08-19-2012, 06:25 PM
3 comments:

#3 - Pilots are entirely logical when it comes to seniority - pilots want what's best for them. If merging with a lower longevity group, we want DOH, the only fair way to go. If we have low longevity, merging with a relative seniority is fair, obviously. If you bring no WB's to the merger, than slots are silly, and the opposite if you are the WB airline. If your company is more successful or pilots are better paid, than 'career expectations' need to be honored to be fair and equitable. To a airline in difficulty or one with lower compensation, what are the expectations of any pilot in the airline industry - furlough, CH 11, and, if you're lucky, retire still married to the same gal with some of your retirement left; the state of an airline's financials at one moment is irrelevant to seniority over a career, and it would be unfair and inequitable to take such matters into account.


You hit the nail on the head with this one. That is why an impartial third party is the best solution. Then again there is only one pilot group in history that believes that they can just impose whatever seniority they decide on the minority.

Sniper
08-19-2012, 06:59 PM
#2 - . . . we're all familiar with every detail. Lets not go down this path on this thread . . .

#3 - . . . making the decision that is best for you is much more complicated than simply going after whatever gets you the highest seniority number in an integration.

You hit the nail on the head with this one.

Perhaps we're hammering away at different nails?

cactiboss
08-19-2012, 07:14 PM
Perhaps we're hammering away at different nails?

No, you describe a pragmatic way of approaching sli, how is that a different nail?

CaptainBigWood
08-22-2012, 05:49 AM
I was hoping a few other airlines would join this thread. USAirways guys are just a little biased. I could go to ALPA, but I would assume their information would be tainted. After all ALPA was the "Fiduciary Guardian" of our fully funded pension, that was slowly raped by Stephen Wolf.

CVG767A
08-22-2012, 06:19 AM
The recent history of seniority integration is to ducuss an SLI, fail to come to an agreement, turn it over to an arbitrator, then grumble about the results (but live with the arbitrator's decision).

Not much to discuss here. Each pilot group makes it's best case to the arbitrator, and hopes for the best.

gloopy
08-22-2012, 10:47 AM
The recent history of seniority integration is to ducuss an SLI, fail to come to an agreement, turn it over to an arbitrator, then grumble about the results (but live with the arbitrator's decision).

Not much to discuss here. Each pilot group makes it's best case to the arbitrator, and hopes for the best.

But the over reaching "federal merger law" adds in another dynamic, and a strong incentive to operate outside its confines, just like SWA threatened to do, so as not to risk a relative windfall because that's what everyone will go for now and arbitrators love giving it too.

But its not a merger if its not a merger.