Acquiring 250 PIC for an ATP
#1
Acquiring 250 PIC for an ATP
A discussion has developed about this, so I'm hoping to get it fresh eyes:
In simple terms, can a regional FO without their ATP or a PIC type use their right seat time to meet the 250 hour PIC requirement of the ATP?
FAR 61.159 tells you what you need for an ATP. Among other things, you need "250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command."
Someone has put forth the idea that FAR 61.55.b.2.ii will allow you to log SIC towards this 250 hour PIC requirement, b/c it says "Engine-out procedures and maneuvering with an engine out while executing the duties of pilot in command" is one of the requirements of a SIC annual check (a PT or PC).
The question is, just b/c a SIC does one maneuver in the sim (or airplane) during a PC "while executing the duties of PIC", does that mean that a SIC is always "performing the duties of PIC" whenever they are @ flying, just when they're the pilot flying, or never? Can a SIC with a FAA pilot's license limiting them to SIC privileges only in a plane log PIC in the plane?
Though most pilots on this forum would answer "never" and "no" to these questions, apparently, there is disagreement, since there are claims applicants using SIC @ their carrier to satisfy the 250 PIC requirement "has been shown to be current practice at most companies such as ASA, and Expressjet".
Can someone without a PIC type rating or an ATP log time that would satisfy the 250 hour PIC requirement of FAR 61.159 in an aircraft that requires a type rating and is being operated under FAR 121, which requires the PIC hold an ATP?
In simple terms, can a regional FO without their ATP or a PIC type use their right seat time to meet the 250 hour PIC requirement of the ATP?
FAR 61.159 tells you what you need for an ATP. Among other things, you need "250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command."
Someone has put forth the idea that FAR 61.55.b.2.ii will allow you to log SIC towards this 250 hour PIC requirement, b/c it says "Engine-out procedures and maneuvering with an engine out while executing the duties of pilot in command" is one of the requirements of a SIC annual check (a PT or PC).
The question is, just b/c a SIC does one maneuver in the sim (or airplane) during a PC "while executing the duties of PIC", does that mean that a SIC is always "performing the duties of PIC" whenever they are @ flying, just when they're the pilot flying, or never? Can a SIC with a FAA pilot's license limiting them to SIC privileges only in a plane log PIC in the plane?
Though most pilots on this forum would answer "never" and "no" to these questions, apparently, there is disagreement, since there are claims applicants using SIC @ their carrier to satisfy the 250 PIC requirement "has been shown to be current practice at most companies such as ASA, and Expressjet".
Can someone without a PIC type rating or an ATP log time that would satisfy the 250 hour PIC requirement of FAR 61.159 in an aircraft that requires a type rating and is being operated under FAR 121, which requires the PIC hold an ATP?
#2
Pretty Clear
In simple terms, can a regional FO without their ATP or a PIC type use their right seat time to meet the 250 hour PIC requirement of the ATP?
FAR 61.159 tells you what you need for an ATP. Among other things, you need "250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command."
FAR 61.159 tells you what you need for an ATP. Among other things, you need "250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command."
I think your reference above is quite clear. Have a great day !
S'Long Mates
#3
This regulatory language simply does not address that issue one way or the other. Trying to read something into it which it does not even address is wishful thinking.
The practical reality is that various bottom-feeder and low-time-friendly regionals have been doing this for years, and the FAA knows all about it. I think the FAA has provided a de-facto interpretation by letting it go on.
The practical reality is that various bottom-feeder and low-time-friendly regionals have been doing this for years, and the FAA knows all about it. I think the FAA has provided a de-facto interpretation by letting it go on.
#4
Well, the reg says:
(4) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least..
I added the bold.
(4) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least..
I added the bold.
#5
Well, the reg says:
(4) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least..
I added the bold.
(4) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least..
I added the bold.
I'm no lawyer, but I believe the FAA interprets "duties of pilot in command" as meaning you were the Pilot Flying.
As an example, here is the text of 61.55:
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may serve as a second in command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second in command unless that person holds:
(1) At least a current private pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating; and
(2) An instrument rating that applies to the aircraft being flown if the flight is under IFR.
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may serve as a second in command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second in command unless that person has within the previous 12 calendar months:
(1) Become familiar with the following information for the specific type aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested --
(i) Operational procedures applicable to the powerplant, equipment, and systems.
(ii) Performance specifications and limitations.
(iii) Normal, abnormal, and emergency operating procedures.
(iv) Flight manual.
(v) Placards and markings.
(2) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, performed and logged pilot time in the type of aircraft or in a flight simulator that represents the type of aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested, which includes --
(i) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop as the sole manipulator of the flight controls;
(ii) Engine-out procedures and maneuvering with an engine out while executing the duties of pilot in command; and
(iii) Crew resource management training.
(c) If a person complies with the requirements in paragraph (b) of this section in the calendar month before or the calendar month after the month in which compliance with this section is required, then that person is considered to have accomplished the training and practice in the month it is due.
(d) This section does not apply to a person who is:
(1) Designated and qualified as a pilot in command under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter in that specific type of aircraft;
(2) Designated as the second in command under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter, in that specific type of aircraft;
(3) Designated as the second in command in that specific type of aircraft for the purpose of receiving flight training required by this section, and no passengers or cargo are carried on the aircraft; or
(4) Designated as a safety pilot for purposes required by §91.109(b) of this chapter.
Top of Page
(e) The holder of a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating is not required to meet the requirements of paragraph (b)(2) of this section, provided the pilot:
(1) Is conducting a ferry flight, aircraft flight test, or evaluation flight of an aircraft's equipment; and
(2) Is not carrying any person or property on board the aircraft, other than necessary for conduct of the flight.
(f) For the purpose of meeting the requirements of paragraph (b) of this section, a person may serve as second in command in that specific type aircraft, provided:
(1) The flight is conducted under day VFR or day IFR; and
(2) No person or property is carried on board the aircraft, other than necessary for conduct of the flight.
(g) Except as provided in paragraph (h) of this section, the requirements of paragraph (b) of this section may be accomplished in a flight simulator that is used in accordance with an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
(h) An applicant for an initial second-in-command qualification for a particular type of aircraft who is qualifying under the terms of paragraph (g) of this section must satisfactorily complete a minimum of one takeoff and one landing in an aircraft of the same type for which the qualification is sought.
(1) At least a current private pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating; and
(2) An instrument rating that applies to the aircraft being flown if the flight is under IFR.
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may serve as a second in command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second in command unless that person has within the previous 12 calendar months:
(1) Become familiar with the following information for the specific type aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested --
(i) Operational procedures applicable to the powerplant, equipment, and systems.
(ii) Performance specifications and limitations.
(iii) Normal, abnormal, and emergency operating procedures.
(iv) Flight manual.
(v) Placards and markings.
(2) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, performed and logged pilot time in the type of aircraft or in a flight simulator that represents the type of aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested, which includes --
(i) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop as the sole manipulator of the flight controls;
(ii) Engine-out procedures and maneuvering with an engine out while executing the duties of pilot in command; and
(iii) Crew resource management training.
(c) If a person complies with the requirements in paragraph (b) of this section in the calendar month before or the calendar month after the month in which compliance with this section is required, then that person is considered to have accomplished the training and practice in the month it is due.
(d) This section does not apply to a person who is:
(1) Designated and qualified as a pilot in command under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter in that specific type of aircraft;
(2) Designated as the second in command under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter, in that specific type of aircraft;
(3) Designated as the second in command in that specific type of aircraft for the purpose of receiving flight training required by this section, and no passengers or cargo are carried on the aircraft; or
(4) Designated as a safety pilot for purposes required by §91.109(b) of this chapter.
Top of Page
(e) The holder of a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating is not required to meet the requirements of paragraph (b)(2) of this section, provided the pilot:
(1) Is conducting a ferry flight, aircraft flight test, or evaluation flight of an aircraft's equipment; and
(2) Is not carrying any person or property on board the aircraft, other than necessary for conduct of the flight.
(f) For the purpose of meeting the requirements of paragraph (b) of this section, a person may serve as second in command in that specific type aircraft, provided:
(1) The flight is conducted under day VFR or day IFR; and
(2) No person or property is carried on board the aircraft, other than necessary for conduct of the flight.
(g) Except as provided in paragraph (h) of this section, the requirements of paragraph (b) of this section may be accomplished in a flight simulator that is used in accordance with an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
(h) An applicant for an initial second-in-command qualification for a particular type of aircraft who is qualifying under the terms of paragraph (g) of this section must satisfactorily complete a minimum of one takeoff and one landing in an aircraft of the same type for which the qualification is sought.
#6
The intent is that the SIC acts as the PIC in planning and decision making...pretends to be the PIC. The actual plays along, but of course retains ultimate responsibility and veto power. Who flies what leg doesn't really matter. This would be very similar in format to a new CA doing IOE.
This has been done in this manner at several regional airlines. My only caveat would be to get company approval first.
And just so we are clear: This is not loggable PIC in any way shape or form. This is logged as SIC, but can be used in lieu of some of the PIC required for the SIC. Make sure you note that each leg in question was conducted as "SIC fulfilling the duties of PIC" or words to that effect. I would probably get the CA's signature too.
Last edited by rickair7777; 10-02-2009 at 12:54 PM.
#7
Check THIS out!
Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division
Legal Interpretation # 92-40
June 5, 1992
. . . As you can see, there are two ways to log pilot-in-command flight time that are pertinent to both your questions. The first is as the pilot responsible for the safety and operation of an aircraft during flight time. If a pilot is designated as PIC for a flight by the certificate holder, as required by FAR 121.385, that person is pilot in command for the entire flight, no matter who is actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft, because that pilot is responsible for the safety and operation of the aircraft.
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division
Legal Interpretation # 92-40
June 5, 1992
. . . As you can see, there are two ways to log pilot-in-command flight time that are pertinent to both your questions. The first is as the pilot responsible for the safety and operation of an aircraft during flight time. If a pilot is designated as PIC for a flight by the certificate holder, as required by FAR 121.385, that person is pilot in command for the entire flight, no matter who is actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft, because that pilot is responsible for the safety and operation of the aircraft.
Here it is, in its entirety:
Legal Interpretation # 92-40
June 5, 1992
Dear Mr. Butler:
Thank you for your letter of March 14, 1992, in which you ask
questions about logging pilot-in-command (PIC) and
second-in-command (SIC) time when operating under Part 121 of the
Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR).
Your letter presents the following scenario: under a Part 121
operation, the air carrier has designated a pilot and a co-pilot.
The pilot is the authorized PIC and the co-pilot is the
authorized SIC. During the course of the flight, the SIC is the
sole manipulator of the controls for one or more legs.
You ask two questions. The first asks whether the pilot
designated as PIC by the employer, as required by FAR 121.385,
can log PIC time while the SIC is actually flying the airplane.
The answer is yes.
FAR 1.1 defines pilot in command:
(1) Pilot in command means the pilot responsible for the
operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time.
FAR 91.3 describes the pilot in command:
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly
responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the
operation of that aircraft.
There is a difference between serving as PIC and logging PIC
time. Part 61 deals with logging flight time, and it is
important to note that section 61.51, Pilot logbooks, only
regulates the recording of:
(a) The aeronautical training and experience used to meet
the requirements for a certificate or rating, or the recent
flight experience requirements of this part.
Your second question asks if the SIC is flying the airplane, can
he log PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i) because he
is appropriately rated and current, and is the sole manipulator
of the controls. Additionally, he has passed the competency
checks required for Part 121 operations, at least as SIC. The
answer is yes.
FAR 61.51(c) addresses logging of pilot time:
(2) Pilot-in-command flight time.
(i) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may
log pilot-in-command time only that flight time during
which that pilot is the sole manipulator of the
controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated,
or when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft,
or, except for a recreational pilot, when acting as
pilot-in-command of an aircraft on which more than one
pilot is required under the type certification or the
aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is
conducted.
(ii) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot in
command time all of the flight time during which he
acts as pilot in command.
(iii) Second-in-command flight time. A pilot may log
as second in command time all flight time during which
he acts as second in command of an aircraft on which
more than one pilot is required under the type
certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under
which the flight is conducted.
As you can see, there are two ways to log pilot-in-command flight
time that are pertinent to both your questions. The first is as
the pilot responsible for the safety and operation of an aircraft
during flight time. If a pilot is designated as PIC for a flight
by the certificate holder, as required by FAR 121.385, that
person is pilot in command for the entire flight, no matter who
is actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft, because
that pilot is responsible for the safety and operation of the
aircraft.
The second way to log PIC flight time that is pertinent to your
question is to be the sole manipulator of the controls of an
aircraft for which the pilot is rated, as you mention in your
letter. Thus, under a 121 operation you can have both pilots
logging time as pilot in command when the appropriately rated
second in command is manipulating the controls.
We stress, however, that here we are discussing logging of flight
time for purposes of FAR 61.51, where you are keeping a record to
show recent flight experience or to show that you meet the
requirements for a higher rating. Your question does not say if
the second pilot in your example is fully qualified as a PIC, or
only as an SIC. This is important, because even though an SIC
can log PIC time, that pilot may not be qualified to serve as PIC
under Part 121.
An example of this difference is FAR 121.652(a), which raises IFR
landing minimums for pilots in command of airplanes flown under
Part 121 who have not served at least 100 hours as PIC in that
type of airplane. Served and logged are not the same in this
context, and no matter how the SIC logs his time, he has not
served as a PIC until he has completed the training and check
rides necessary for certification as a Part 121 PIC.
We hope this satisfactorily answers your questions.
Sincerely,
/s/ Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division
June 5, 1992
Dear Mr. Butler:
Thank you for your letter of March 14, 1992, in which you ask
questions about logging pilot-in-command (PIC) and
second-in-command (SIC) time when operating under Part 121 of the
Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR).
Your letter presents the following scenario: under a Part 121
operation, the air carrier has designated a pilot and a co-pilot.
The pilot is the authorized PIC and the co-pilot is the
authorized SIC. During the course of the flight, the SIC is the
sole manipulator of the controls for one or more legs.
You ask two questions. The first asks whether the pilot
designated as PIC by the employer, as required by FAR 121.385,
can log PIC time while the SIC is actually flying the airplane.
The answer is yes.
FAR 1.1 defines pilot in command:
(1) Pilot in command means the pilot responsible for the
operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time.
FAR 91.3 describes the pilot in command:
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly
responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the
operation of that aircraft.
There is a difference between serving as PIC and logging PIC
time. Part 61 deals with logging flight time, and it is
important to note that section 61.51, Pilot logbooks, only
regulates the recording of:
(a) The aeronautical training and experience used to meet
the requirements for a certificate or rating, or the recent
flight experience requirements of this part.
Your second question asks if the SIC is flying the airplane, can
he log PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i) because he
is appropriately rated and current, and is the sole manipulator
of the controls. Additionally, he has passed the competency
checks required for Part 121 operations, at least as SIC. The
answer is yes.
FAR 61.51(c) addresses logging of pilot time:
(2) Pilot-in-command flight time.
(i) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may
log pilot-in-command time only that flight time during
which that pilot is the sole manipulator of the
controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated,
or when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft,
or, except for a recreational pilot, when acting as
pilot-in-command of an aircraft on which more than one
pilot is required under the type certification or the
aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is
conducted.
(ii) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot in
command time all of the flight time during which he
acts as pilot in command.
(iii) Second-in-command flight time. A pilot may log
as second in command time all flight time during which
he acts as second in command of an aircraft on which
more than one pilot is required under the type
certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under
which the flight is conducted.
As you can see, there are two ways to log pilot-in-command flight
time that are pertinent to both your questions. The first is as
the pilot responsible for the safety and operation of an aircraft
during flight time. If a pilot is designated as PIC for a flight
by the certificate holder, as required by FAR 121.385, that
person is pilot in command for the entire flight, no matter who
is actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft, because
that pilot is responsible for the safety and operation of the
aircraft.
The second way to log PIC flight time that is pertinent to your
question is to be the sole manipulator of the controls of an
aircraft for which the pilot is rated, as you mention in your
letter. Thus, under a 121 operation you can have both pilots
logging time as pilot in command when the appropriately rated
second in command is manipulating the controls.
We stress, however, that here we are discussing logging of flight
time for purposes of FAR 61.51, where you are keeping a record to
show recent flight experience or to show that you meet the
requirements for a higher rating. Your question does not say if
the second pilot in your example is fully qualified as a PIC, or
only as an SIC. This is important, because even though an SIC
can log PIC time, that pilot may not be qualified to serve as PIC
under Part 121.
An example of this difference is FAR 121.652(a), which raises IFR
landing minimums for pilots in command of airplanes flown under
Part 121 who have not served at least 100 hours as PIC in that
type of airplane. Served and logged are not the same in this
context, and no matter how the SIC logs his time, he has not
served as a PIC until he has completed the training and check
rides necessary for certification as a Part 121 PIC.
We hope this satisfactorily answers your questions.
Sincerely,
/s/ Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division
Thus, under a 121 operation you can have both pilots logging time as pilot in command when the appropriately rated second in command is manipulating the controls.
Needless to say, I am shocked.
#8
Very interesting. If this is still a valid interpretation (it is old) then it spells it out pretty clearly.
But this is for purposes of an FAA certificate or rating (ie the ATP). Don't go apply to a major and claim your FO time as turbine PIC based on this. You will get booted from the interview and flagged to never call back...they want people who signed for the airplane.
But this is for purposes of an FAA certificate or rating (ie the ATP). Don't go apply to a major and claim your FO time as turbine PIC based on this. You will get booted from the interview and flagged to never call back...they want people who signed for the airplane.
#9
Are we there yet??!!
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,010
I am gonna come out and say it. I don't care who it offends but....if you got ask on this one...maybe you need a little or a lot more experience before you get an ATP.
If you are logging PIC with an SIC rating...wow. I will show you the door.
If you are logging PIC and acting as SIC only (not signing for the airplane) I will show you the door.
If you are logging PIC with an SIC rating...wow. I will show you the door.
If you are logging PIC and acting as SIC only (not signing for the airplane) I will show you the door.
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: B744 FO
Posts: 375
The interpretation cited is dated 1992, well prior to the creation (read: surrender to the French) of the SIC-type-rating.
The "SIC type-rating"isn't a real type-rating, it was created after too many episodes of harrassment by French and Brazilian aviation officials interfering with American flight crews operating N-registered aircraft, combined with the decline of American power and prestige.
The "SIC type-rating" allows you to fly as and log SIC time when in international airspace, as you don't even need it for operations in US National Airspace System.
The "SIC type-rating"isn't a real type-rating, it was created after too many episodes of harrassment by French and Brazilian aviation officials interfering with American flight crews operating N-registered aircraft, combined with the decline of American power and prestige.
The "SIC type-rating" allows you to fly as and log SIC time when in international airspace, as you don't even need it for operations in US National Airspace System.
Last edited by 727gm; 10-10-2009 at 02:42 PM. Reason: clarif.
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