Yes but this instruction (altitude and heading assignment) in this case becomes a clearance because you can't deviate from it or would you?
I don't know; ask the FAA. I wouldn't bet my license on it.
I do know that you can't (1) operate an airplane contrary to an ATC clearance and (2) operate an airplane contrary to an ATC instruction except in an emergency. There is a difference, but I would ask the Feds themselves about it.
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"Gear down, flaps thirty, before landing checklist."
You are totally right. You ought to be cautious. I will try to get this in writing from the legal interpretation office of the FAA.
What I will say is you should always think a heading/altitude instruction as a way to keep separation with other traffic. You deviating from it because you were not supposedly "Cleared" could be potentially dangerous. So my point is, if you didn't hear those magic words "cleared into" but were given a heading and altitude instruction that put you on a course to enter class B, would you deviate from this heading/altitude instruction and circle around or would you follow his instructions? If you did venture just outside class B deviating from his instruction waiting for those magic words and with the luck on your side, you might be on a collision course with a 737 full of pax. Try to explain this to the FAA why you were deviating from his heading/altitude instruction.
Bottom line, I don't dispute at all that you should hear "clear into class B". You need in fact a clearance like everyone said. But you don't need too if you are given an altitude and heading instruction that puts you on a course to enter class B. That will constitute your clearance into class B. That's all.
Yes but this instruction (altitude and heading assignment) in this case becomes a clearance because you can't deviate from it or would you?
YES you can deviate from it. What if we have a similar situation (frequency congested), but you need to turn to remain clear of clouds. Do you deviate from the heading? Heck yeah! Because not deviating from the clearance becomes a FAR violation. Remember who is SOLELY responsible for your flight.
If I'm not 100% sure, I am deviating from the instruction. Especially if I'm outside the Class B, turning to stay outside of it if you're not sure is reasonable, in my opinion. That's like holding your position if you're not sure you can cross a runway... it's just common sense.
Plus, I think the FAA would be hard pressed to violate you for disregarding an ATC instruction when you're OUTSIDE the class B.
I don't know; ask the FAA. I wouldn't bet my license on it.
I do know that you can't (1) operate an airplane contrary to an ATC clearance and (2) operate an airplane contrary to an ATC instruction except in an emergency. There is a difference, but I would ask the Feds themselves about it.
Does a looming cloud ahead count as an emergency? No, not in my book. Does it require deviation? Yes, if VFR. Does looming airspace ahead that you're not sure if you can penetrate constitute an emergency? No, not in my book. Does it require deviation? Yes.
Bottom line, I don't dispute at all that you should hear "clear into class B". You need in fact a clearance like everyone said. But you don't need too if you are given an altitude and heading instruction that puts you on a course to enter class B. That will constitute your clearance into class B. That's all.
I think you may be technically correct.
But I have heard "cleared into the Class B" when getting departure instructions on the ground when getting ready to depart VFR from a Class B primary airport. If you can't assume it then, when can you assume it?
I've also been queried by a later controller what I was doing in the Class B (the clearance wasn't passed on) and was very happy there was no question in the tapes of the clearance being given.
So, if you hear something that doesn't say "cleared" I guess you're left with this choice:
Take a few seconds to say, "Confirm Cessna 1234X is cleared into the Class Bravo" and take the risk that you didn't need to.
Guess that you have the clearance and take the risk that you are wrong (or at least have to deal with an investigation).
But I have heard "cleared into the Class B" when getting departure instructions on the ground when getting ready to depart VFR from a Class B primary airport. If you can't assume it then, when can you assume it?
I've also been queried by a later controller what I was doing in the Class B (the clearance wasn't passed on) and was very happy there was no question in the tapes of the clearance being given.
So, if you hear something that doesn't say "cleared" I guess you're left with this choice:
Take a few seconds to say, "Confirm Cessna 1234X is cleared into the Class Bravo" and take the risk that you didn't need to.
Guess that you have the clearance and take the risk that you are wrong (or at least have to deal with an investigation).
I find that choice very easy to make.
I'm with him.
It is not clearly spelled out anywhere, the wording that does exist hints at an implied requirement for something more than radio contact, and in IFR operations you do need to hear "cleared to XYZ".
I have two friends at SOCAL and even they don't have a firm opinion. The concern is that if you are given a vector that takes you into into Bravo 10-15 minutes later and there is a traffic conflict, the controller could claim that he had not cleared you into the B.
If the vector takes you immediately into B, that would probably hold up as a B clearance. Probably.
Here's a question... what are you doing getting vectors to begin with? VFR and outside of Bravo, what gives ATC the authority to give you these vectors in the first place?
For the first and original argument, I'm still undecided. Whether or not you automatically gain a Bravo clearance upon canceling IFR in Bravo airspace. I would obviously assume so, but from a legal/FAR standpoint, I'm not sure.
As far as the second argument, I'm going to with the "Cleared to/into...." crew. A heading/altitude assignment, in my opinion, does not trump "those magic words." ... in the VFR world anyway.
Here's a question... what are you doing getting vectors to begin with? VFR and outside of Bravo, what gives ATC the authority to give you these vectors in the first place?
If you asked for flight following, they can give you vectors. If you don't like the vectors you can drop flight following and do your own thing. But anytime ATC tells you to do something you risk 91.13 if you disregard them without good reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcartier713
For the first and original argument, I'm still undecided. Whether or not you automatically gain a Bravo clearance upon canceling IFR in Bravo airspace. I would obviously assume so, but from a legal/FAR standpoint, I'm not sure.
I'm sure. That would be ridiculous...if you cancel IFR while in B you are obviously cleared in the B. You were cleared in under IFR and you cannot instantly vanish when you cancel...unless you are Han Solo.
Here's a question... what are you doing getting vectors to begin with? VFR and outside of Bravo, what gives ATC the authority to give you these vectors in the first place?
That's one of "those" arguments.
By definition, "Controlled airspace means an airspace of defined dimensions within which air traffic control service is provided to IFR flights and to VFR flights in accordance with the airspace classification."
And 91.123(b) tells us that "Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised."
Whether the two together mean that ATC can given you an instruction in any controlled airspace is something that gets argued. I've never seen a solid answer from the FAA.
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