So how are the P121 pilots on this forum seeing the law implemented?
I was on one of those flights this past winter out of BWI where I would have rather endured the longer ground delay than the cancellation for that particular trip. At other times I'd rather cancel and try again another day. Too many variables for an airline to try and figure out my personal priorities.
My take is no airline will ever actually pay any such fine. The US congress was working on the law when the DOT, decided they can play executive branch, legislative branch, and judicial branch all on their own and made their own "law.".
I predict that IF this "law" us ever applied, the fines will be overturned in court. Of course nobody wants to be the test case, and St the time with gas over $100 a barrel, airlines were more than happy to pull the plug on flights with poor loads and pin it on delays.
Perhaps the tarmac delay allowances should be proportional to the length of the flight?
If it's my last leg to my destination, I'd rather wait on the tarmac and then go, rather than have it canceled - up to a point. If we're on the ground for 2 hours+ and there is no ETA for departure, take me back to the gate and let me wait there. I know that is frowned upon because some pax will head straight to the bar and not hear the new boarding announcement, especially if there is a "quick release".
One time I really did not care was JFK-IST and I was in DAL's BE. Keep the mimosa's coming! I did start to become concerned we'd have to get more fuel as the ground delay approached 3 hours (this was pre flight delay law).
The fine money (or portion thereof) should go to the pax, not the FAA or DOT or whomever.
So how are the P121 pilots on this forum seeing the law implemented?
I was on one of those flights this past winter out of BWI where I would have rather endured the longer ground delay than the cancellation for that particular trip. At other times I'd rather cancel and try again another day. Too many variables for an airline to try and figure out my personal priorities.
This past winter showed you exactly how the carriers are handling it: Cancel hundreds of flights the day before to prevent any issues.
I can't speak for all airlines, but at DAL we have a whole process/checklist which begins at 2+00 should you be unlucky enough to wind up off the gate in a ground delay. They are determined not to exceed the 3+00 rule.
It's really been a no-win situation the few times in the past I've been caught up in these situations. It's always been on the East Coast, and it's always been weather occurring somewhere else and not at the airport we were at. Half the pax want to return to the gate and the other half want to keep going. Lucky for us we have politicians with all the answers.
My take is no airline will ever actually pay any such fine. The US congress was working on the law when the DOT, decided they can play executive branch, legislative branch, and judicial branch all on their own and made their own "law.".
I predict that IF this "law" us ever applied, the fines will be overturned in court. Of course nobody wants to be the test case, and St the time with gas over $100 a barrel, airlines were more than happy to pull the plug on flights with poor loads and pin it on delays.
Executive Branch Agency regulations are enforceable in an administrative hearing. That's the way government works. Congress legislates in broad strokes and leaves it to the agencies to implement their "vision". (and give elected officials cover) DOT, FAA, EPA, NLRB, VA, Immigration, SSRB, etc; all work this way. If an airline is fined and wants to make a federal case out of it then they can appeal the administrative law fine in federal court at which point DOJ gets involved on behalf of the government to argue in favor of enforcing the penalty. And yes, this is appealable all the way to the Supreme Court if the Court takes certiori of the case.
Speaking of consequences of flight delays......some things have just gone too far.
Manners and breaking the law are two different things; though I've heard of a few municipal ordinances before for cursing - - - it is awful hard to enforce uniformly.
From my lowly CA point of view that has had to deal with this multiple times so far;
Quote:
Originally Posted by N9373M
From my lowly pax point of view:
Perhaps the tarmac delay allowances should be proportional to the length of the flight?
Would that be the scheduled block of the flight, or the actual wheels up to wheels down time? Should the airline be allowed to choose which one at it's convenience?
Quote:
Originally Posted by N9373M
If it's my last leg to my destination, I'd rather wait on the tarmac and then go, rather than have it canceled - up to a point. If we're on the ground for 2 hours+ and there is no ETA for departure, take me back to the gate and let me wait there. I know that is frowned upon because some pax will head straight to the bar and not hear the new boarding announcement, especially if there is a "quick release".
It may be your "last leg", but for people on that flight, it may be their FIRST leg.
And yep, sure enough. Last summer we waited, waited, and waited. Went back to the gate, got the people off to comply with the law. And yep, sure enough, a few minutes later the stop on the departure gates was lifted and we were cleared to push ASAP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by N9373M
The fine money (or portion thereof) should go to the pax, not the FAA or DOT or whomever.
Maybe, but if you gave the pax that amount, they'd simply want MORE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JobHopper
I can't speak for all airlines, but at DAL we have a whole process/checklist which begins at 2+00 should you be unlucky enough to wind up off the gate in a ground delay. They are determined not to exceed the 3+00 rule.
It's really been a no-win situation the few times in the past I've been caught up in these situations. It's always been on the East Coast, and it's always been weather occurring somewhere else and not at the airport we were at.
Same here, although it depends on which hub we are operating out of as far as when the checklist items start. It's pre-programmed into the ACARS now to start popping up messages at certain points.
What was really nerve racking once was being at 2+24 when number 3 in line for take off. With 2+30 being the point which we have to start heading back at the particular hub we were at.
From my lowly CA point of view that has had to deal with this multiple times so far;
It may be your "last leg", but for people on that flight, it may be their FIRST leg.
And yep, sure enough. Last summer we waited, waited, and waited. Went back to the gate, got the people off to comply with the law. And yep, sure enough, a few minutes later the stop on the departure gates was lifted and we were cleared to push ASAP.
Maybe, but if you gave the pax that amount, they'd simply want MORE.
Same here, although it depends on which hub we are operating out of as far as when the checklist items start. It's pre-programmed into the ACARS now to start popping up messages at certain points.
What was really nerve racking once was being at 2+24 when number 3 in line for take off. With 2+30 being the point which we have to start heading back at the particular hub we were at.
Very good points. Thanks for alerting me to my "it's all about me" mentality.
At my regional they are VERY conscious of this rule. If we have an EDCT time we are not supposed to board until 30 prior to that time at the latest to mitigate any time in the plane. We have a long on board delay worksheet which documents the whole process. After certain time cues we have to make announcements every 20 minutes and report lav status and give out water and snacks at different intervals as well as report on cabin temperature. This is all documented on the sheet through the CA. At 2 hours I believe you have to have a plan to get the pax off and at 2:30 unless TO is imminent you are to return to the gate to execute whatever plan you made at the 2 hour mark.
All of this is also communicated real time through acars with dispatch.
This rule has merit...sometimes. The other week our fix was closed indefinitely. They were opening up most gates but we were told 5 minutes or 2 hours...who knows. They would open a gate and start launching planes and we were number one for our fix. Sometimes if you explain to the pax that by waiting an hour and a half on a plane it could get you out quicker they are ok with it. If they wait in the terminal and we get the ok and then have to board we could go to the back of the pile and wait an additional hour plus.
The real solution as others have said doesnt come from us it comes from the mainline partners. CAL wholesale cancels flights by the hundreds. I will be home on Thursday to start a trip on Friday with an expected snowstorm and they will cancel 2 full days of my flights before the first flake hits the ground.
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