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What's wrong with logging SIC time?

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What's wrong with logging SIC time?

Old 09-14-2011, 03:48 PM
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Default What's wrong with logging SIC time?

I've been hearing a lot about why you should never log SIC time unless the aircraft requires more than one crew member, but to me it sounds like you can log SIC time in other circumstances too. For example, when a pilot is acting as a safety pilot and has the correct category and class certification, but is unable to log PIC due to lack of an endorsement (complex, high performance, etc). Technically, that safety pilot is a required crew member. Would there be any issues with logging SIC time if this were the case?


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Old 09-14-2011, 04:54 PM
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61.51 (f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:
(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.
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Old 09-14-2011, 05:06 PM
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According to FAR's explained you may log SIC time while acting as a safety pilot. I was always told SIC only applied to multi-crew airplanes. FAR's Explained is not a FAA publication so I would probably check with your FSDO (or the FSDO that gives you the answer you want).
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Old 09-14-2011, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by JimHalpert View Post
For example, when a pilot is acting as a safety pilot and has the correct category and class certification, but is unable to log PIC due to lack of an endorsement (complex, high performance, etc).
You can log PIC time, you just can't act as PIC. There is a difference.

You can also log whatever you like. Your logbook is yours to what you like with. As long as you can show currency, you can log whatever you choose.

Potential employers consider PIC as the person who has the ending responsibility for the flight. Same reason SIC time in a King Air or cabin class twin doesn't go well when applying for a better job.

Ask people who did 135 charter in King Airs or CJs and logged SIC, or the King Air guys who logged PIC on the legs they flew in 90s/200s (though they had no PIC training on the aircraft). It doesn't often go over well in an interview or on an application.
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Old 09-14-2011, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by DirectTo View Post
You can also log whatever you like. Your logbook is yours to what you like with. As long as you can show currency, you can log whatever you choose.

Potential employers consider PIC as the person who has the ending responsibility for the flight. Same reason SIC time in a King Air or cabin class twin doesn't go well when applying for a better job.

Ask people who did 135 charter in King Airs or CJs and logged SIC, or the King Air guys who logged PIC on the legs they flew in 90s/200s (though they had no PIC training on the aircraft). It doesn't often go over well in an interview or on an application.
There are just too many situations out there to cover with blanket statements, but this might be good general advice. It certainly depends on the operation and the rules/regulations (opsecs) that the crew and aircraft are operating under the direction of during flight. I log SIC time, though I am PIC/single pilot qualified, even when I am flying. I understand that I could be logging PIC time, but all of my PIC time up to this point as been when I have
been "the person who has the ending responsibility for the flight." as you say DirectTo. This method would not work for everybody, but as he also says - your logbook is yours to log time in as you wish - just be able to explain it and justify it when you interview.

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Old 09-14-2011, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by USMCFLYR View Post
There are just too many situations out there to cover with blanket statements, but this might be good general advice. It certainly depends on the operation and the rules/regulations (opsecs) that the crew and aircraft are operating under the direction of during flight. I log SIC time, though I am PIC/single pilot qualified, even when I am flying. I understand that I could be logging PIC time, but all of my PIC time up to this point as been when I have
been "the person who has the ending responsibility for the flight." as you say DirectTo. This method would not work for everybody, but as he also says - your logbook is yours to log time in as you wish - just be able to explain it and justify it when you interview.

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Originally Posted by DirectTo View Post
You can log PIC time, you just can't act as PIC. There is a difference.

You can also log whatever you like. Your logbook is yours to what you like with. As long as you can show currency, you can log whatever you choose.

Potential employers consider PIC as the person who has the ending responsibility for the flight. Same reason SIC time in a King Air or cabin class twin doesn't go well when applying for a better job.

Ask people who did 135 charter in King Airs or CJs and logged SIC, or the King Air guys who logged PIC on the legs they flew in 90s/200s (though they had no PIC training on the aircraft). It doesn't often go over well in an interview or on an application.
Well, I'm not even a commercial pilot yet so I wouldn't rack up too many hours doing this. I'm asking primarily because I'm wondering if I should spend the extra $1000 for complex and high performance endorsements on my certificate so I can log some safety pilot time provided I find some rich guy with a 182 or a Bonanza that needs a safety pilot. But, if I can manage to log SIC time toward my CPL without spending the extra grand for the endorsements I'd probably just do that. I don't know, what do you think would be the best course of action?

This whole thing is just a way to keep me flying and boost my TT on a tight budget.
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Old 09-16-2011, 03:43 PM
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I just got off the phone with the FSDO. After a lengthy time on hold, they say it OK to log SIC time in an aircraft if you are the safety pilot, even if you cannot be PIC due to lack of endorsements as long as you have category and class. I guess that answers my question.
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Old 09-17-2011, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by JimHalpert View Post
I just got off the phone with the FSDO. After a lengthy time on hold, they say it OK to log SIC time in an aircraft if you are the safety pilot, even if you cannot be PIC due to lack of endorsements as long as you have category and class. I guess that answers my question.
I'm amazed! You actually managed to get someone on the phone who gave the correct answer.

Be wary of answers given by a FSDO, especially over the phone. They are notorious for being incorrect. You just got lucky this time.

BTW, you will often hear that you should never log this or that when the regs say you can. Despite the title of this section of the forum, you'll find that a lot of folks answer this kind of question based on (a) what they personally think you should log or (b) based upon a perception of what the airlines would like you to do.

You're asking about logging time that the FAA permits you to log to meet the FAA's time requirements for FAA certificates. No reason not to log legit time toward the 250 generic flight hours needed for the commercial.
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Old 09-17-2011, 05:04 AM
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Dude, I'm just going to change your emplasis:
Originally Posted by The Dude Abides View Post
61.51 (f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:
(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that [B]requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.
About 20 years of FAA Chief Counsel interpretations make it clear that for logging PIC and SIC purposes, the safety pilot required under 91.109 make flight under the hood with a safety pilot a flight in which "more than one pilot is required under the regulations under which the flight is being conducted."
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Old 09-17-2011, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by JimHalpert View Post
I just got off the phone with the FSDO. After a lengthy time on hold, they say it OK to log SIC time in an aircraft if you are the safety pilot, even if you cannot be PIC due to lack of endorsements as long as you have category and class. I guess that answers my question.
A couple of problems here...

- Local FSDO's are not always right.

- There are many regulatory grey areas, and other FSDOs may not agree with your FSDO. Actually odds are very high they will disagree.

- Employers have their own standards, and may not be familiar with all regulatory fine print. The average airline interviewer would probably NOT accept SIC in a light ASEL under part 91. Thye might not even give you the opportunity to explain, they might just hire someone else. Even if they do discuss it with you, the last thing you want is to be on the defensive, with your integrity (or intelligence) in question arguing some fine point of regulation. Trust Me. If you want to be a career pilot, you need to cater to what the employers are looking for...they are the ones who hire you, not the FAA.

If you really want a definitive answer, you need to write the FAA legal folks in Washington. They will send you a latter addressing your specific question, and such a letter would over-ride any rogue FSDO or local clown inspector.

Actually this question has been answered by FAA legal before (see NoyGonnaDoIt's post), you can search for it on their website.

In your shoes I would get the endorsements and just log it is PIC just to avoid confusion down the line. You'll need those endorsements eventually anyway.
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