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Should we be operating 91 or 135?

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Should we be operating 91 or 135?

Old 07-19-2014, 04:41 PM
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Question Should we be operating 91 or 135?

I am flying for a non-profit. This non-profit wants to fly people from other non-profits at no cost to them. Is it still considered a 91 flight?

The non-profit has someone willing to donate the operating cost of the flight including my pay in order for them to fly.

Ive spent the last week reading and re-reading everything on 91 vs 135 and I cant decide which it would fall under.....my gut says I need a single pilot 135 certificate. Thanks for your responses.
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Old 07-20-2014, 06:36 AM
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Do a thread search for the concept of "holding out". Offering transportation from A to B to a specific group of people "may" be considered holding out and thus would require an air carrier certificate. You might seek the advice of an aviation attorney. In addition, you might consider the 91K option and have several "non profits" become fractional owners of said aircraft.
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Old 07-20-2014, 04:03 PM
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I'm curious.

Why is everyone skiddish in calling and asking the local FISDO?

In reality it's those folks who will be talking to you if an issue comes up, correct?
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Old 07-20-2014, 04:10 PM
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You don't want to talk to them if you don't have to. Its like the in laws. And you won't want to be talking to them if an issue comes up either. Best bet is to quit trying to find gray areas and stay honest. If you don't and your logbook gets combed over you are screwed.
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Old 07-20-2014, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Group W Bench View Post
I am flying for a non-profit. This non-profit wants to fly people from other non-profits at no cost to them. Is it still considered a 91 flight?

The non-profit has someone willing to donate the operating cost of the flight including my pay in order for them to fly.
Which non-profit would be paying for the trip - the one you fly for, or the one who would be your passengers?

If your company is paying the expenses, then the passengers are guests of your company and it is no big deal.

If the passengers would be paying the expenses (either directly or through a donor), then I would think an Administrative Law Judge would consider that an illegal charter.

Have you read 91.501?
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Old 07-21-2014, 05:59 PM
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An aviation attorney will be able to draft a non-exclusive dry lease agreement for the applicable parties involved. There will be a few hoops to jump through, but dry leases are very common in the corporate world.
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Old 07-27-2014, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by NotPart91 View Post
I'm curious.

Why is everyone skiddish in calling and asking the local FISDO?

In reality it's those folks who will be talking to you if an issue comes up, correct?
Because the FSDO will say read the regs in a stuffier, legalese way. They do not want to make a recommendation because if they are wrong, they can be held liable. Also, how the regs are interpreted varies from FSDO to FSDO.

Originally Posted by BoilerUP View Post
Which non-profit would be paying for the trip - the one you fly for, or the one who would be your passengers?

If your company is paying the expenses, then the passengers are guests of your company and it is no big deal.

If the passengers would be paying the expenses (either directly or through a donor), then I would think an Administrative Law Judge would consider that an illegal charter.

Have you read 91.501?
Not necessarily. There is case law (sorry, I can't find the precedent, but I think it was the Cincinnati FSDO) where an air ambulance company that was doing a repo flight under part 91 after a transport (I think the crew was timing out and flying back under 91) allowed the next of kin to ride back to base for free. The feds violated the pilots because, in the final judgement, the flight was for compensation: compensation in the form of "good will".

Originally Posted by pokey9554 View Post
An aviation attorney will be able to draft a non-exclusive dry lease agreement for the applicable parties involved. There will be a few hoops to jump through, but dry leases are very common in the corporate world.
This is the best advice. And if the attorney has a heart (I know, oxymoron), he might even do it pro bono if he sees the flight is truly a donation.

One thing I would do to CYA no matter what the lawyers draw up: pretend you ARE 135 and follow those regs for fight/duty times, filing alternates, O2, etc. I'm paranoid, but maybe doing so and DOCUMENTING it will show the feds you tried to act in good faith should they come after you.

I've done a three freebees out of pocket because I knew I was doing the right thing and it was easier than jumping through the hoops. I did them for the karma (luckily the feds can't hold that against me). In the end, I got enough free drinks from them and their buddies to cover my costs. Good luck, and don't let the BS stop you from making the flight.

Last edited by FlyJSH; 07-27-2014 at 10:26 PM.
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Old 08-04-2014, 08:04 AM
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Thank you all for the responses.
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