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Altitude deviation

Old 08-29-2015, 08:30 AM
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Default Altitude deviation

Last week we had one of our aircraft committed an altitude deviation in which the pilots promptly filed a NASA report. They were cleared to maintain 7000 then cleared to to 5000 with a turn ,aadditionally they were given 2ndturn and the pilot flying saw 3000 in the asel window and queried the F/O and he confirmed now we are cleared to 3000 .Nevertheless the PIC slowed his descent rate to 100 fpm,as he had not heard the "3000".ATC came back telling thm to maintain 5000 unfortuntely he was at 4600 and in his words" I snapped back to 5000 in like 3 seconds" The airspace was quiet and ATC did not issue a Brasher not did the next freq which was the tower.We had this meeting within the department and one of the other pilots was convinced that there could be an administrative action or nothing.
Any thoughts out there on this.
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Old 08-29-2015, 08:39 AM
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Odds are very low that anyone even noticed. There are some approach controls which have highly sensitive automated altitude monitoring which *might* flag a deviation on an approach. I really doubt it would happen on vectors though, I think the automated systems are setup for specific fixes.

But the nasa report should at least prevent any certificate action.
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Old 08-29-2015, 08:46 AM
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From reading the NASA report ATC did tell them something to the effect that they were told to maintain 5000, so the controller did notice
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Old 08-29-2015, 09:28 AM
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Good call on the NASA. But unless someone said "Possible Pilot Deviation" or something specific along those lines, you are fine. The only way for action or an investigation to take place is if you are told that paper work has to be filed and that there is a record of your mistake.
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Old 08-29-2015, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by mtbthis View Post
Good call on the NASA. But unless someone said "Possible Pilot Deviation" or something specific along those lines, you are fine. The only way for action or an investigation to take place is if you are told that paper work has to be filed and that there is a record of your mistake.
That is no longer correct. If the automated system issued a report, the FAA can investigate it even if the controller didn't care or didn't even notice. Another common misconception is if ATC fails to correct your read back (IE, they clear you to 5,000 ft and you read back 3,000 ft and they don't say anything), you can also be violated for loss of separation.
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Old 08-29-2015, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by mtbthis View Post
Good call on the NASA. But unless someone said "Possible Pilot Deviation" or something specific along those lines, you are fine. The only way for action or an investigation to take place is if you are told that paper work has to be filed and that there is a record of your mistake.
ATC is supposed to do certain things procedurally, but even if they forget or don't for some other reason, it doesn't change what happened in the first place. They don't have to say "possible pilot deviation", although they try to when it happens. NASA form is a good idea. Outcome is usually an Administrative Action Warning Notice. NASA form would waive the penalty (not the decision) if it went to a Legal Action, but that's rare for a simple pilot deviation. I believe the "alarm" ATC uses is 300', a good number to keep in the back of your head.

Mostly likely, if you haven't heard anything in a month, you probably won't hear about it at all. That's not an absolute, but it's usually the way it goes.
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Old 08-30-2015, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by 2StgTurbine View Post
That is no longer correct. If the automated system issued a report, the FAA can investigate it even if the controller didn't care or didn't even notice. Another common misconception is if ATC fails to correct your read back (IE, they clear you to 5,000 ft and you read back 3,000 ft and they don't say anything), you can also be violated for loss of separation.
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
ATC is supposed to do certain things procedurally, but even if they forget or don't for some other reason, it doesn't change what happened in the first place. They don't have to say "possible pilot deviation", although they try to when it happens. NASA form is a good idea. Outcome is usually an Administrative Action Warning Notice. NASA form would waive the penalty (not the decision) if it went to a Legal Action, but that's rare for a simple pilot deviation. I believe the "alarm" ATC uses is 300', a good number to keep in the back of your head.

Mostly likely, if you haven't heard anything in a month, you probably won't hear about it at all. That's not an absolute, but it's usually the way it goes.
This checks with what I've been told by controllers. The automated system might flag you without the controller even being aware. I'm led to believe this only happens at certain designated fixes where they have a lot of issues (essentially red-light cameras), as opposed to constant monitoring of all assigned alts.
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Old 08-30-2015, 10:02 AM
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Thanks for info. I guess my question now is much like Rickair's: do they have this automation at all fixes, approach gates, etc.?
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Old 08-30-2015, 11:22 AM
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So if i understand this correctly the controller would use radar tracks which are recorded and not neccesarily a computer snitch im any area where those " red light" cameras. Dont exist?
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Old 08-30-2015, 03:21 PM
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I *think* it's like this...

At a few (TRACON only?) fixes which have published crossing restrictions with a track record of deviations, the computer is set to flag and collect possible deviations. This info goes to management (ATC? FSDO?) which eventually decides what to do with it. The controller may not be aware that the computer flagged it. TRACON radar is often more accurate than en-route...they can always see your Alt (mode C) but en-route it may be hard to see on radar exactly where you were relative to the fix.

Controllers *typically* only report a deviation...

1) If it was grossly unsafe and/or created an obvious conflict. Even then maybe just a phone number and butt chewing.
2) Caused the controller's own alarms to go off...now he's on the hook so he'll understandably want to shift blame if the pilot was at fault.
3) He has a bad attitude or in a bad mood...a little kindness on the radio is cheap insurance, plus it make's everybody's day more pleasant.
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