USMCFLYR

The carrying of the black mark on the driver's license doesn't do anything in and of itself. It is just a record. Not if a cab company decides it doesn't want to hire anyone who has a black mark on the driver's record - then once again that is the employers decision. Should grades be expunged after high school too? Just because Joey got an 'F' in high school biology should no one even find out about it? If a medical school wants high school records to decide who gets into its school then once again that is their decision.

I'm not saying it is right - but in my opinion people are wrongly focused on the RECORD KEEPING itself and are not more concerned with the companies they are applying with and how they USE that information. Be mad at a company/industry that won't look at you because you have one failure = not at the fact that there is a record on your failure.

After all I did for college (where many start out rough and then grow up rapidly) and for the next 20+ years in the military and my record, I'd be upset if an employer wanted to know my high school GPA - but some do I understand. Am I mad that there is still a record of my high school GPA in existence or do I chose not to interview with such an employer. I consider myself lucky that I did not have to make such a decision for the few jobs I've had post military.

PRIA stuff.....don't know. Haven't dealt a lot with it. If employers really can say something bad about a former employee just because they are mad they quit working for them and that report can follow them without any type of rebuttal from the former employee (and a company choses not to interview that person based on that one remark in this example) - then I'd be upset at all aspects of the *system* - the PRIA, the former employer, and the hopeful future employer (and maybe even at myself depending on the circumstances - like maybe I really wasn't that good of an employee - who knows.)

outaluckagain

I like the clean up idea. I worked for a company where I was a Union Steward. I dealt with people on various stages of discipline where 1 level of discipline would often predicate the next higher level. The instant the company got a person on a level, they would start trying to get them on the next level. The biggest problem was the 2 year window. Each time the employee was moved up a level, the 2 year clock would start again. It was nearly impossible to keep clean.

Your idea of a clean slate would go a long way towards providing an incentive. I doubt though that some of these regionals would be able to handle it since they have gone so long with using intimidation tactics.

By the way, the pilot in this thread washed out of the absolute bottom feeder. The problem was the company,as best I can tell. Sure would be a shame to have a screwed up record when it was as much the company at fault as any.

outaluckagain

Just clarifying where I was on the issue of PRIA. The issue of whether he has to report or not is not an issue at all. He got his type and ATP there, so obviously he will have to report it. No use pondering that end of it.....

ATCsaidDoWhat

His transition problem comes from trying to jump from a 172 to something alot bigger, faster and more complex. He needs experience in aircraft in between that build his experience level and where he learns things that books can't teach.

Of his 1650TT, how much is actual PIC and how much is CFI? How much is night? How much is ACTUAL IFR...in the clouds...not just popping an and out?

There is a reason for the failures as you note. You can train a 10 year old to program the automation, but you can't train experience. And it shows up for those of us in the left seat every time we have to take the time to instruct basic flying skills and thought processes to someone who is used to clicking off a mile every 30-40 seconds who is now knocking them off every 6 seconds in an environment full of airplanes, ATC and weather. We don't mind the imparting of experience. However, we need someone who is as least somewhere close to being up to speed. We're not there to be your CFI.

Bring me a pilot who is book smart and can recite rules, policies, flows and procedures with no experience beyond a 172 and one who has the same and a few hundred hours single pilot hauling freight or checks. Let's put them in the sim.

And we'll see who cuts it and who scrapes by. Then ask yourself if you want to be the guy who is known as just scraping by and has to be watched...or the guy who knows his craft and doesn't need babysitting?

outaluckagain

Evidence has shown time and time again that experience alone is not enough for some pilots to master the automation. It rarely occurs that pilots transitioning fron C172 to CRJ don't have serious difficulties with the automation, procedures, CRM and on an on. Time in a Baron under actual IFR conditions is an excellent way to hone those IFR skills, but where is all the CRM flows and jet handling characteristics. You just won't find that in a Baron
A healthy compromise may for this guy to get some time in an ATR under 135 for a year or so. There is plenty of complexity built into this aircraft and the type of operation he will fly under. The Baron just doesn't cut it.

The question arises as to why ae there so many low time guys able to sail right through 121 training while so many 1600 hour guys fail. The reason lies in the transition training the low time guys receive before they go to the 121 carrier.

Many low time guys who succeed the first time around go through all kinds of transition training before reporting for duty at the regional. They get through most of the regs so that they can work on flows and callouts in indoc training. They have allready studied systems before reporting, so they may continue drilling those emergencies and procedures during the actual systems class. When they are sitting in CPT, they are almost fully prepared for sim sessions.

I have heard many guys deny ever having done this, and out of the 10 that left my local airport for the regionals, all of them took transition training before leaving to go to the regionals. All of them succeeded.

I can't argue against experience, as you are emphasizing. I just don't think that additional flying hours will help people who are being swallowed whole by the sim.

kls81

So someone like myself, I have around 4500tt. I've worked mainly vfr type jobs so I have very little glass time. Do you think an Rj transition course would benefit me?

Hawker Driver

ATCsaidowhat is right. Thoughtfully written too!

HD

ATCsaidDoWhat

What's your multi time look like? What is the breakdown of your 4500 hours?

For the OP, and possibly you, depending on what you've been doing; a place like Cape Air would be an excellent move. Good solid flying in a high volume ATC environment. If you're willing to make the move and they have slots, they have ATR's operating in Guam.

Transition courses are like places that sell type ratings. They are great for draining your wallet. Each carrier is going to have their own procedures and will train to them. While the basics are the same, the last thing you need to do is have a different set of concepts in your head while you are trying to learn a new airplane during initial.

Most carriers look at your time and what your experience is. While not referring to you; a pilot who has a lot of time and has only done CFI work who went out and bought an RJ rating is a lot less attractive than someone with less time who has flown more demanding work (checks, night cargo, single pilot ME 135) or the like. As divisive as this comment will sound to some, a lot of carriers are concerned about many who have gotten into the field who don't see this as a craft and focus on it as such; but see it as something to do and make money. And we won't get into the money part of it.

Beech90

So pilots who take ATPs CRJ Course are more successful?

Cubdriver

Sure there needs to be a pilot performance reporting system like there is for drivers licenses but that does not mean PRIA should be poorly managed like it is now. There's all kinds of irrelevant stuff in it like those F's and stale data, and even worse than that.

Let's go to the analogy department. Anyone who critiques CNN, FOX, or any other news channel knows that just by gathering random happenings about town will not produce fair and balanced news shows. Discretion and judgment come into play in story selection, that's where PRIA fails. Again with the news example, people generally say FOX is right of center while CNN is left, but that implies they actually use some form of filtering to choose what they want to report on each day. It may be biased reporting but at least they are using discretion to filter out the random crap. PRIA does not even do that- it simply mounts a webcam on the head of a pilot and transcribes the carnage that goes on as they get hosed by bottom feeder airlines. I am exaggerating to make a point perhaps, but I think PRIA needs a serious overhaul.

Let's look at another analogy. If you do something that triggers a bad credit mark against your credit report there are ways you deal with it for the better. Not just cosmetic ways but genuine ways to achieve a higher credit score. You can make your payments on time, you can increase the number of credit lines so you have and get chances to score well by paying on time, you can consolidate loans to decrease the number of payments and the risk of missing a payment, you can challenge a bad reports or have it arbitrated, you can go to bankruptcy court and start that process, there are time windows and recency is given proper weight, on and on. But with PRIA there is none of this. All you can do is toss in a letter saying "I disagree" and that's about it, you're done improving your pilot report. You can't open another line of credit by getting another job in most cases, you blew it the bad mark is there. You blew it pretty much for good. And that's not fair in my view- how could it be?

Here are some things to consider while giving PRIA an overhaul-

• try to achieve greater fairness for pilots
• originate a method for actually handling demerits like points
• achieving greater accuracy in reporting, perhaps using a point system (ie. drivers' licenses) and institute time-based accounting for point management
• a third party venue for addressing disputes over points

USMC, the idea I get in your post is that PRIA must be fair because what happened, happened. "Don't play the game if you do not like the rules." But in my experience with PRIA the rules are flawed, there hardly are any rules, and just throwing into a file all that happens is ridiculous on its face. There needs to be some form of management and supervision of what goes into a given file. No rules and no supervision equates to a news channel sending out a bunch of idiots on the beat then running all their idiotic, random stories with no discretion as to what counts.

Before you accuse me of being biased towards the pilot I actually am biased towards neither pilot nor company because when a reporting system is truly fair and balanced and it is an accurate system and everybody wins. Pilots who are safe and capable will be revealed as such while those who are dangerous will as well. That was the original purpose of PRIA the way I understand it, and should remain the goal of any overhauled system.