kmoore0612

Hey guys,

If I am asking questions that have already been asked then a apologize in advance. From what you all can tell...... if the airlines are facing a pilot shortage, do you think that the airlines will still make it hard to get hired by American or united or any major brand? Do you think new people like me will have to start off in commuter and work my way up or do I have a possible shot at getting hired straight out of school with the big guys? I know that a bunch of people have said that going to embry riddle isn't worth the money. embry riddle students have a "waiver" from the FAA allowing them to work for the major airlines with only 1000 hours vs 1500 as the minimum. Now I know that the airlines want people with close to 2-3000 hours but do you any of you think that going to embry is worth the 500 hour less requirement? Keep in mind my GI bill will be paying for the first 2 years of my schooling/flight training. If I go to embry I would only need to pay for the last 2 years of flight training since the GI bill covers the classes.

Sliceback

You have ZERO chance of getting hired by a major airline right after getting your licenses. Look at the resumes of the guys getting hired at the majors, they're light years beyond the experience level you're hoping of getting hired at.

The job path is - instruct, regionals, majors. 'Instruct/regionals' can be replaced with 'military'. It won't change for a long time and hopefully will never change.

Grumpyaviator

ERAU or any expensive university is not the best route. Get your ratings at a 141 school and if you need a degree apply the ratings to an online program while you work as a pilot. Find a corporate/charter gig that pays well and build quality turbine time. I flew Learjet 135 charter and was the only one that did not go directly to the majors. I went to the regionals because I was in a hurry to get to an airline. If I had it to do over I would have finished school while flying corporate and then started applying to the majors and working down the list to the regionals as time went by.

By the time you finish training and get the hours the whole landscape will change and the routes to the majors may even be faster. Especially as the regionals start fading away due to attrition and a broken business model. Flying charter will give you some great experience in things the regionals won't, such as flight planning, weather briefing and customs etc. not to mention you can start with a commercial certificate and make good money while building time and experience.

When you have 1500 hours, you can see then if the regionals are the best route or if you can go directly to the majors. At least you'll have time to prepare financially.

badflaps

There is probably no easy way to the majors for the next couple of years, get your degree in something not aviation related, start picking up ratings at the same time. Above all, hang around the airport of choice and network, network, network. Or just join the ANG.

PotatoChip

Zero chance. And no, Embry-Riddle is not worth 500 hours.

JohnBurke

That's not a sentence, and it's hard to tell what you're trying to say, but the airlines have never "made it hard." Getting hired is up to you.

Is it an easy path? No, it is not. The airlines do not make it easy or hard. It's up to you get get qualified and to put yourself in a position to be hired. It is not a fast path.

If the major airlines are your goal, plan on ten to fifteen years at a minimum.

There is NO pilot shortage.

There is no possibility whatsoever of you going to work as a pilot for a major airline upon graduation of college. You'll lack the qualifications and won't be remotely competitive, nor will you come close to meeting the minimums.

You will need to go get experience, and that will entail a career path that most likely involves a variety of jobs such as flight instructing, charter, banner towing, etc, until you gain the work and flight experience that will allow you to be competitive.

No such "waiver" exists. The guidelines mandated by congress dictate that pilots working for airlines now hold an Airline Transport Pilot certificate and minimum levels of experience. Graduating from an aviation program allows the student to approach certification with fewer hours, but that doesn't make the student competitive, especially at the major level.

You should look at some of the changes coming to the GI bill and what it covers with regard to flight training.

It won't cover hours-building; you still need to go out and construct a career. That will take years. ERAU won't get you any closer.

In fact, there are a lot of places where ERAU doesn't help your career. It's not really a name brand that the aviation community looks up to.

It's not just hours that get you the interview. Go get your hands dirty. go fly night freight without an autopilot in the weather, do work that makes you work and that speaks for you, something that an employer can respect. Get pilot in command time. Get multi engine PIC time. Get turbine multi engine PIC time, and show a career progression from one job to the next, representing increasing levels of responsibility. You'll go through several jobs, probably several moves, and you'll learn a lot.

At some point you'll look back and realize that the difference between 1000 hours and 1500 hours is nothing, and you'll see how little you really knew at 1000 hours...and 1500 hours, too. Then you'll begin to understand. In the meantime, don't fall for the hype, especially that taught be colleges offering aviation degrees. Their mission isn't to shape you into the future of aviation. Their mission is to fill their classroom with revenue-paying students, and much like military recruiters seeking recruits.

Many get their degrees online now. Utah Valley University used to be Utah Valley State College and before that Utah Technical College. I knew the person who began and ran their aviation program. A lot of pilots have obtained degrees there. For many years they had a Shorts sitting at the Provo (UT) airport, and the person who ran their program would tell students that it was part of their flight training program, that it was what they used as their large airplane for transition training. It was all a lie, as was his assertion that the student would enter in a two year program, but he'd have a four year program available before he was done. It was all lies, in fact, including the pilot shortage that they preached 25 years ago, and all the statistics and things bantied about to get students in the door.

You don't think ERAU is any different, do you?

Grumpyaviator

PS Liberty Un has a great discount on top of the GI bill. $250/credit, books almost free and no tech fees. Basically $750/ class.

kmoore0612

Looks like I was under the wrong impression about a lot of stuff. I guess I worry about not being able to build hours fast enough and still be able to support my family. What constitutes turbine time? Do turboprops count? My father-in-law who is a captain for American Airlines was telling me that the only way to get pilot in command is by being a captain? Is this true or is there some way of doing it as a first officer?

sarahswhere

A restricted ATP won't get you to the majors NOW, but in four or so years the landscape COULD be different. You mentioned a GI Bill. What from? Are you capable of enlisting in a flying unit as a Loadmaster, Flight Engineer, Boom Operator, or other enlisted flying positions that exist? If so, that's the "cheapest" route. I spent time in the back of a C-130 doing schoolwork and applied for a pilot slot after I completed my degree and took all the necessary tests. My unit (who knew me and saw my work ethic and personality) sponsored me through pilot training. I just started at United.

There is a lot of good advice in the answers to your question. If none of it looks appealing, you might want to consider another career field.

JohnBurke

There is no way that you'll be building a career quickly. As previously stated, plan on 10-15 years.

It's not just a matter of "building hours" (a concept that I abhor). It's a matter of building the requisite experience to be marketable. As a new pilot, you have nothing to offer an employer; no experience, no hours, no background or knowledge or understanding, or skill. You have a wet certificate that's inferior to what's held by 100% of the rest of the pilot workforce. It's discouraging to hear, but it's the truth.

Looking ahead, you'll see that additional certification is available. When I got to my first 135 job, I realized that I was far from the only guy there with a flight instructor certificate, for example. Everybody had one. Along with all the ratings. Most working as professionals have all the qualifications that you'll be seeking, but have put them to use for many years, and many hours, and it's that against which you'll be competing for work.

You'll see the term "minimums" used often in discussions about hiring. Sometimes they're called "hiring minimums," and you'll see a company advertise 1,500 hours total time, 300 hours multi, etc. You might be tempted to think that's what you need to get the job. It's not. Minimums are the bottom line, the very minimum that you can have before applying to the job. What is important is what you won't find written or published; the competitive minimums. That's what it takes to compete with others who are applying for the same job.

If you have 1,500 hours, but every other applicant has 10,000 hours and has worked in the same type of employment (airlines, for example), you might meet company minimums, but you won't be competitive. 1,500 hours is the minimum to obtain an ATP certificate. It is NOT the minimum to compete for a job. If you're looking to get hired on with a regional, you are competitive at that level, as the regionals pay dirt poor wages and consequently the jobs go to those desperate enough to agree to work for those wages.

Regionals tend to be clogged with people who went to the regionals with little or no experience, but because they're clogged, there's little upward movement. One who spends several years flying for a regional may have flight time to show for it, but without upgrading, it's all second in command experience, and doesn't show progress or responsibility; consequently it's not very competitive time to take elsewhere.

Pilot in command experience means that you're the person in charge of the aircraft. In the airlines, this is called "captain," but in many other areas it's simply called "pilot" or "pilot in command." If you're flying night freight in the weather on the east coast in busy airspace, single pilot in instrument flight conditions, it's all pilot in command, and you can call yourself whatever you like. Even "captain" if it suits
your father-in-law.

Turbine engines come in various flavors, but yes, a turbopropeller ("turboprop") engine is turbine, as is a turbojet or turbofan engines (what you see on 737's, etc). Some airlines want to see turbojet experience, some simply turbine experience; nearly all want to see it as multi experience. As an example, I have a reasonable amount of single engine turbine experience that many airlines lump in the same boat as a Cessna 150, because it's single engine. I also have a reasonable amount of four engine bomber experience, behind large radial engines, which some operators also lump in the same category as a Cessna 150, because they're piston engines. The airlines like to see turbine multi-engine experience. Regionals, not so much; they'll take you with no turbine experience. Majors, absolutely you will need high performance turbine multi experience.

There are a lot of avenues in aviation other than major airlines. I've made six figures in a summer flying single engine ag airplanes, for example, but that also requires a fair amount of experience, and it's not for everyone. Corporate, fractional , charter, and many other arenas exist within aviation; the airlines are not the be-all and end-all of the aviation. You can make a good living doing contract work for the military presently, if you're willing to live an austere fragmented life and spend some quality time in some of the explosive vacation hotspots around the world. Lots of options. I've done all of those, more than once, and my personal preference isn't a shirt and tie, but a flight suit and a helmet with a little smoke in the cockpit. Don't limit yourself to one job or one direction. Open up your horizons, be willing to consider possibilities that may arise unexpectedly, and take opportunities that benefit you.

So many want the cookie-cutter approach to a career, climbing the ladder with flight instructing then off to this airline or that...and attempt to walk or run before they can crawl. Why not go work for a banner towing outfit and get a lot of hours and some unique experience right off the bat? Spend a summer, fly seven or eight hundred hours, make a few dollars (it really is a few), then go back to doing something else?

Do you have the capability of working other jobs while you get your feet planted in aviation? There's a good chance you might need to do that. I worked as a security guard, drove a delivery truck, substitute taught high school, ran on an ambulance, cleaned theaters at night, scrubbed supermarket floors, dispatched, tended roses in a greenhouse, and a few other things along the way to supplement my pilot income, as well as turned a lot of wrenches as an aviation mechanic, too. The question you're going to need to ask yourself regards your level of commitment.

Is the career easy? Not necessarily. Is it worth it? In my opinion, yes.