rev63

To a large extent yes. Then as the guy said, "it works for me," it generally doesn't for me due to my sleep pattern. I don't live in MEM, but can get to the crash pad and try to go to sleep at 8pm. But I'll probably drift off at around 10 or 11, get 1 or 2 hours of sleep, then fly to BFM. If I could sleep on command for the short layover, it would be okay. But I can't.
I was offered this trip, two in a row, in SUB during December. Did a double decline - there's no reason to build a trip like this if we are interested in safety overall. If I lived in MEM would I want it just because it works for me? I don't honestly know. Good discussion though.

FDXLAG

When I see pairing like this I always think of the reserve guy. A line guy knows what he is bidding/trading into. The Reserve guy not so lucky.

If I was at the top of the reserve list and saw this trip in open time I would probably stay up till 11 hoping I could sleep on the "turn". Of course then I would get slammed with the Casper Boise trip.

DLax85

No intention of "arguing" here....just looking for a robust discussion on an internet forum (...I'm pretty sure that's the overall intent of the boards).

It's very important to understand what the company is asking pilots to do on pairings like this.

First, show up well rested and fly safe; and, of course, be ready to fly quite a bit longer if your trip is somehow delayed/revised/extended or you are put into SUB. This is a reasonable expectation on every flight.

But then again, they really want you to go right to sleep once you hit BFM, because your layover is relatively short (by our standards) and you have a bus show time right at your circadium low (2-3pm).

Remember, you will be flying 2 legs about 2+45 each that afternoon. One into Mexico, with a elevated CFIT risk and foreign controllers. You have a responsbility to show up well rested and ready for anything.

So which is it???

Show up "rested" and prepared for delays/revisions/duty extensions....... or show up "tired" and ready to go to sleep after one short leg???

It's also important to understand who would fly these trips on Wednesdays (...and possibly Mondays & Fridays)...??

The consensus appears to be we shouldn't hubturn into or out of these --- so building commutable or even non-commutable lines from a series of these trips would be a challenge for our SIG.

And finally, making 1 new short layover/extended block time hub turn trip by combining 2 previous trips (1/2 an AM O&B and a whole PM O&B) is probably not a "cost saving" initiative we want to pursue as a pilot group --- regardless of how personally pay efficient.

Bottom-line: The company and the SIG have a joint responsibility to ensure a pairing is "safe" to fly based on the average pilot and the biological realities of human sleep cycles and cumulative fatigue.

In Unity...and safety,

VR,

DLax

frozenboxhauler

Parks31, You're a classic "I'm on board boys, pull up the ladder, I got mine!". You are one of the reasons that we're where we are. I hope, one of these day soon, you have a change of heart. If the trip is disputed, IT'S DISPUTED! Capish?
Sincerely.
fbh

__________________
Facta non Verba!

matty

He doesn't fly them!!!...voluntarily.

He got tagged with 'em on RA.

He's just discussing why he doesn't think this one should be disputed for him. It works for him. He isn't saying it will work for everyone. He's just having a discussion. Re-read his posts. He isn't being an a$$ about it. He plays by the "rules" and colors nicely in his coloring book.

parks31

This is why I rarely post on this forum. I am not trying to be greedy or out for myself. I realize that I am different than most pilots. I just get tired of the argument that all pairings should fit into the same mold. I clearly agree that the trip should not be hub turned. Do all trips have to stack up nice and neat during a week? I like to fly every other day. I understand all your reasons so I will just go back to occasionally checking in to catch up on the newest arguments. Geez

CloudSailor

FWIW, I was also assigned that same DP trip 3 different times while on reserve. I never hub turned out of it and was given an early notification to prepare my clock for it. I agree with you parks31, from my experience, it wasn't bad at all as a STANDALONE trip to be flown every other day, twice a week. Like you, I would consider it completely unsafe to hub turn into that same trip, or any other trip, for that matter. A friend who flew probably about 12 of them didn't mind them as long as they were preceded and followed by, one day off. I imagine trips cannot be built with an asterisk next to them to tell crew schedulers that they cannot hub turn a reserve guy back into the same trip (all else being FAR-legal). And for the reasons DLax explained (SUB, etc...), I assume the SIG cannot build a line with that particular pairing on only Tuesday/Thursday, with another line having the trip on only Monday/Wednesday. For those who live in MEM, that would probably be a good line of flying.

parks31, don't be bullied off the forum man We need different perspectives on here, which keeps it interesting. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of echoed statements.

Sluggo_63

I agree. He did exactly what he was supposed to do. He got a disputed pairing off of reserve, then gave the SIG feedback, like they ask. I don't see the problem at all with what he did.

Unknown Rider

Ok, couple of questions here.

Is the pairing currently being built as a hub turn?

If not, and it's not disputed by the SIG, could it later be built as a hub turn without a dispute process possible?

CloudSailor

For some reason I couldn't edit my previous post...

Just wanted to add: I would NOT pick up a DP from open time, nor ask for them on a custom/secondary line. I agree/support the SIG in its efforts to make our schedules safer and we definitely need to be unified on that front. I still liked hearing parks31' perspective on the QRO trip.