Corporate departments' take on 121 pilots?
10-06-2014, 05:44 PM
#91
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Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Baja Vermont
Posts: 5,177
This is light years ahead of anything you will experience at a regional. It was one thing for me to hear about it while working for regionals, it was something else to live it.
GF
10-30-2014, 11:16 PM
#92
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2013
Posts: 207
Originally Posted by Airhoss
So I'd just like to clear a few things up here with my personal circumstances. I flew corporate for a couple of years before coming to the "majors". Our flight department was a business based FD with very few weekend or holiday trips. We did a lot of day turns with probably 3 to 5 nights a month on overnights. Sometimes more but it was rare. The one thing I HATED about my old FD was that the boss wanted us at the hangar from 0700 to 1600 Monday through Friday whether we had any flying going on or not. That was kind of PITA but I'll tell you what we had some seriously clean and detailed airplanes in the hangar it was all we had to do to kill the time if there wasn't any flying or maintenance going on!
For three years after I got on with airlines I did contract flying for my old fd. The money was good but it got to a point where I simply didn't have enough time and energy to do both so I quit the contract stuff.
Now on to some of the statements made about airline flying and the lifestyle. I have been with my current airline for 17 going on 18 years. I am stuck on reserve as an F/O. I work every weekend, holiday and fly every horrible all nighter POS trip you can imagine, bottom of the barrel stuff. If there is a captain with a personality disorder other undesirable trait that nobody else will fly with you can bet that i work with him or her on a regular basis. After all what are reserves for anyhow? So there is no WAY to say that a 20 or a 30 or a 40 year guy will sitting in tall cotton at an airline. Maybe they will maybe they won't it just depends on the airline and the unique circumstances that occur during your career there.
I guess there are a few captains at my outfit who can tickle the $400K number if they are supreme scamers and know how to effectively work the premium trip pool. But it is by no means common for a Cap to make that kind of dough. As far as F/O's making $300K? Probably not even if they are supreme scamers. I guess they could come close but the average guy does not make that kind of money.
So in a nut shell, days off, money, lifestyle they all depend on where you're working and when you got hired there are no constants in this industry for either a corporate FD or an airline.
I've been a captain at this airline, I've been an instructor and check airmen at this airline. Things were good until they weren't good. Nobody has a crystal ball, and life is like a box of chocolates. You never really know what you are going to get.
PS
Here is the
face so nobody gets mad.
For three years after I got on with airlines I did contract flying for my old fd. The money was good but it got to a point where I simply didn't have enough time and energy to do both so I quit the contract stuff.
Now on to some of the statements made about airline flying and the lifestyle. I have been with my current airline for 17 going on 18 years. I am stuck on reserve as an F/O. I work every weekend, holiday and fly every horrible all nighter POS trip you can imagine, bottom of the barrel stuff. If there is a captain with a personality disorder other undesirable trait that nobody else will fly with you can bet that i work with him or her on a regular basis. After all what are reserves for anyhow? So there is no WAY to say that a 20 or a 30 or a 40 year guy will sitting in tall cotton at an airline. Maybe they will maybe they won't it just depends on the airline and the unique circumstances that occur during your career there.
I guess there are a few captains at my outfit who can tickle the $400K number if they are supreme scamers and know how to effectively work the premium trip pool. But it is by no means common for a Cap to make that kind of dough. As far as F/O's making $300K? Probably not even if they are supreme scamers. I guess they could come close but the average guy does not make that kind of money.
So in a nut shell, days off, money, lifestyle they all depend on where you're working and when you got hired there are no constants in this industry for either a corporate FD or an airline.
I've been a captain at this airline, I've been an instructor and check airmen at this airline. Things were good until they weren't good. Nobody has a crystal ball, and life is like a box of chocolates. You never really know what you are going to get.
PS
Here is the
face so nobody gets mad.Definitely not mad but glad to see those incomes are where IMO they should be.
However, as you well stated, anywhere near 400K must be in the 99.99 percentile of airline pilots. Take United for instance, 747/777 captain $255 per hour, 90 hours per month (obviously pushing FAA annual Hard time limit), yields $275,400 per year. Even if he cashed in on his vacation and had phenomenal profit sharing, is that possible? Again, I am in admiration if so.
I am a senior 30 plus year 777 captain at the other major (not Delta unfortunately) and I fly high time (85-95 hours per month = 18-19 days a month average... all-nighters of course), float a week or two of my vacation for pay and am not even breaking 250K. While its true we have no profit sharing or premium trip pool, and I am earning about 25 less an hour, I don't want folks to think its all gravy even at the top of Majors.
I don't mean to complain, because there are currently about 15,000 guys below me who don't have it as good as myself. But hopefully I can dispel anyone's belief that we earn what those guys did in the good old days...not even close.
10-31-2014, 12:42 PM
#93
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2013
Posts: 207
Morning after regret...we definitely don't need anymore whining airline pilots (myself included rereading my post) on this or any other forum. Ive been very blessed with what has been given to me and in regard to pay, it is what it is.
I hope everyone here can find happiness and contentment no matter how they are compensated. Thanks.
I hope everyone here can find happiness and contentment no matter how they are compensated. Thanks.
10-31-2014, 12:53 PM
#94
Furloughed Again?!
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Boeing 737
Posts: 4,795
For what it's worth, I would've stayed at my part 91 operator until retirement had the level of suck not increased so appreciably over the last 5 years.
10-31-2014, 07:12 PM
#95
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 473
You forgot to mention the 16% contribution (not a match, 16% free) that you guys get. I never heard of a corporate pilot getting that.
The hypothetical UA Capt that you mentioned would reach 320k just between W2 and contribution, before profit sharing bonuses, and before selling back vacation time. And without working the system. Flying wide body, he should be able to have 8-9hr legs, therefore reaching those 90hr/month with 10-11 days of work. And those are hard hours, not credit hours, and with no international or night override, and no perdiem. In another thread, a JetBlue pilot explained how between contributions, bonuses, and selling back of PTO (about 100hr/year at 150%), a pilot can make an extra 28%. I find hard to believe JetBlue has a better contact than a legacy.
Even it was the same, the fore mentioned UA Capt would be north of 350k. And we still did not count the overrides and per diems.
There is absolutely NO corporate pilot making that. Not even close.
Let's remember that more than 50% of major airlines pilots are captains, and that most corporate pilots don't even brake 150k.
In other words, more than 50% of airline pilots make what most corporate pilot will never make, and the other 50% will make it once upgrade. Furlough, bankruptcy, shut down, you can get that in both sides. Of course, QOL, to each his own, be happy, money is not everything, bla bla bla......, but we can't compare this stuff, too subjective. Live in base appears to be the key, but in corporate you won't even have the option to commute, unless it is on your own dime anyway, and in most cases won't be possible.
Money, although not the most important thing under no means, it is a quantitative value, and therefore objectively comparable. And there is more money to be made working for a major than for a corporate flight department.
You obviuosly know first hand, but I am failing to understand how you fly 95 hours per month in 19 days. Are you flying 4,5 hours per day in a 777? What are your credit hours? Trip rig? Duty rig? I honestly have no idea about your contract, but it seems there is more then just hard per-hour pay, and it should take considerably less than 19 days to credit 90hr. Unless you count as a 3 days trip, a trip that starts at the end of day 1, and finishes at the beginning of day 3. That would be a 48hr trip (2 days) spread over 3 calendar days.
What is the length of your typical trip (in hours) and how many hours you fly and/or credit toward pay for that same trip?
The hypothetical UA Capt that you mentioned would reach 320k just between W2 and contribution, before profit sharing bonuses, and before selling back vacation time. And without working the system. Flying wide body, he should be able to have 8-9hr legs, therefore reaching those 90hr/month with 10-11 days of work. And those are hard hours, not credit hours, and with no international or night override, and no perdiem. In another thread, a JetBlue pilot explained how between contributions, bonuses, and selling back of PTO (about 100hr/year at 150%), a pilot can make an extra 28%. I find hard to believe JetBlue has a better contact than a legacy.
Even it was the same, the fore mentioned UA Capt would be north of 350k. And we still did not count the overrides and per diems.
There is absolutely NO corporate pilot making that. Not even close.
Let's remember that more than 50% of major airlines pilots are captains, and that most corporate pilots don't even brake 150k.
In other words, more than 50% of airline pilots make what most corporate pilot will never make, and the other 50% will make it once upgrade. Furlough, bankruptcy, shut down, you can get that in both sides. Of course, QOL, to each his own, be happy, money is not everything, bla bla bla......, but we can't compare this stuff, too subjective. Live in base appears to be the key, but in corporate you won't even have the option to commute, unless it is on your own dime anyway, and in most cases won't be possible.
Money, although not the most important thing under no means, it is a quantitative value, and therefore objectively comparable. And there is more money to be made working for a major than for a corporate flight department.
You obviuosly know first hand, but I am failing to understand how you fly 95 hours per month in 19 days. Are you flying 4,5 hours per day in a 777? What are your credit hours? Trip rig? Duty rig? I honestly have no idea about your contract, but it seems there is more then just hard per-hour pay, and it should take considerably less than 19 days to credit 90hr. Unless you count as a 3 days trip, a trip that starts at the end of day 1, and finishes at the beginning of day 3. That would be a 48hr trip (2 days) spread over 3 calendar days.
What is the length of your typical trip (in hours) and how many hours you fly and/or credit toward pay for that same trip?
Originally Posted by TRZ06
Hi,
Definitely not mad but glad to see those incomes are where IMO they should be.
However, as you well stated, anywhere near 400K must be in the 99.99 percentile of airline pilots. Take United for instance, 747/777 captain $255 per hour, 90 hours per month (obviously pushing FAA annual Hard time limit), yields $275,400 per year. Even if he cashed in on his vacation and had phenomenal profit sharing, is that possible? Again, I am in admiration if so.
I am a senior 30 plus year 777 captain at the other major (not Delta unfortunately) and I fly high time (85-95 hours per month = 18-19 days a month average... all-nighters of course), float a week or two of my vacation for pay and am not even breaking 250K. While its true we have no profit sharing or premium trip pool, and I am earning about 25 less an hour, I don't want folks to think its all gravy even at the top of Majors.
I don't mean to complain, because there are currently about 15,000 guys below me who don't have it as good as myself. But hopefully I can dispel anyone's belief that we earn what those guys did in the good old days...not even close.
Definitely not mad but glad to see those incomes are where IMO they should be.
However, as you well stated, anywhere near 400K must be in the 99.99 percentile of airline pilots. Take United for instance, 747/777 captain $255 per hour, 90 hours per month (obviously pushing FAA annual Hard time limit), yields $275,400 per year. Even if he cashed in on his vacation and had phenomenal profit sharing, is that possible? Again, I am in admiration if so.
I am a senior 30 plus year 777 captain at the other major (not Delta unfortunately) and I fly high time (85-95 hours per month = 18-19 days a month average... all-nighters of course), float a week or two of my vacation for pay and am not even breaking 250K. While its true we have no profit sharing or premium trip pool, and I am earning about 25 less an hour, I don't want folks to think its all gravy even at the top of Majors.
I don't mean to complain, because there are currently about 15,000 guys below me who don't have it as good as myself. But hopefully I can dispel anyone's belief that we earn what those guys did in the good old days...not even close.
11-01-2014, 05:38 AM
#96
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Sleeping in the black swan’s nest.
Posts: 5,709
Originally Posted by NoSidNoStar
You forgot to mention the 16% contribution (not a match, 16% free) that you guys get. I never heard of a corporate pilot getting that.
The hypothetical UA Capt that you mentioned would reach 320k just between W2 and contribution, before profit sharing bonuses, and before selling back vacation time. And without working the system. Flying wide body, he should be able to have 8-9hr legs, therefore reaching those 90hr/month with 10-11 days of work. And those are hard hours, not credit hours, and with no international or night override, and no perdiem. In another thread, a JetBlue pilot explained how between contributions, bonuses, and selling back of PTO (about 100hr/year at 150%), a pilot can make an extra 28%. I find hard to believe JetBlue has a better contact than a legacy.
Even it was the same, the fore mentioned UA Capt would be north of 350k. And we still did not count the overrides and per diems.
There is absolutely NO corporate pilot making that. Not even close.
Let's remember that more than 50% of major airlines pilots are captains, and that most corporate pilots don't even brake 150k.
In other words, more than 50% of airline pilots make what most corporate pilot will never make, and the other 50% will make it once upgrade. Furlough, bankruptcy, shut down, you can get that in both sides. Of course, QOL, to each his own, be happy, money is not everything, bla bla bla......, but we can't compare this stuff, too subjective. Live in base appears to be the key, but in corporate you won't even have the option to commute, unless it is on your own dime anyway, and in most cases won't be possible.
Money, although not the most important thing under no means, it is a quantitative value, and therefore objectively comparable. And there is more money to be made working for a major than for a corporate flight department.
You obviuosly know first hand, but I am failing to understand how you fly 95 hours per month in 19 days. Are you flying 4,5 hours per day in a 777? What are your credit hours? Trip rig? Duty rig? I honestly have no idea about your contract, but it seems there is more then just hard per-hour pay, and it should take considerably less than 19 days to credit 90hr. Unless you count as a 3 days trip, a trip that starts at the end of day 1, and finishes at the beginning of day 3. That would be a 48hr trip (2 days) spread over 3 calendar days.
What is the length of your typical trip (in hours) and how many hours you fly and/or credit toward pay for that same trip?
The hypothetical UA Capt that you mentioned would reach 320k just between W2 and contribution, before profit sharing bonuses, and before selling back vacation time. And without working the system. Flying wide body, he should be able to have 8-9hr legs, therefore reaching those 90hr/month with 10-11 days of work. And those are hard hours, not credit hours, and with no international or night override, and no perdiem. In another thread, a JetBlue pilot explained how between contributions, bonuses, and selling back of PTO (about 100hr/year at 150%), a pilot can make an extra 28%. I find hard to believe JetBlue has a better contact than a legacy.
Even it was the same, the fore mentioned UA Capt would be north of 350k. And we still did not count the overrides and per diems.
There is absolutely NO corporate pilot making that. Not even close.
Let's remember that more than 50% of major airlines pilots are captains, and that most corporate pilots don't even brake 150k.
In other words, more than 50% of airline pilots make what most corporate pilot will never make, and the other 50% will make it once upgrade. Furlough, bankruptcy, shut down, you can get that in both sides. Of course, QOL, to each his own, be happy, money is not everything, bla bla bla......, but we can't compare this stuff, too subjective. Live in base appears to be the key, but in corporate you won't even have the option to commute, unless it is on your own dime anyway, and in most cases won't be possible.
Money, although not the most important thing under no means, it is a quantitative value, and therefore objectively comparable. And there is more money to be made working for a major than for a corporate flight department.
You obviuosly know first hand, but I am failing to understand how you fly 95 hours per month in 19 days. Are you flying 4,5 hours per day in a 777? What are your credit hours? Trip rig? Duty rig? I honestly have no idea about your contract, but it seems there is more then just hard per-hour pay, and it should take considerably less than 19 days to credit 90hr. Unless you count as a 3 days trip, a trip that starts at the end of day 1, and finishes at the beginning of day 3. That would be a 48hr trip (2 days) spread over 3 calendar days.
What is the length of your typical trip (in hours) and how many hours you fly and/or credit toward pay for that same trip?
UAL has no provision to sell back vacation. You either use it or the unused credit goes into a retirement health care account at the end of the year.
The only people who are crediting 80+ hours a month and doing it in 10 or 12 days are the folks who can hold the really good quality high time 3 and 4 day trips. If you are flying trips with tiny little 8 hour legs on a 3 day, that trip is going to credit 16 hours. One day over sit for a day and one day back. Minimum pay guarantee is 5 hours a day. So the two 8 hour legs would override the mpg with 16 hours credit. FAR 117 has decreased the ability to do most of the really high time 3 day trips that we used to have BTW..
Do the math on how many of those trips it takes to make 90 hours. And the more realistic scenario might be two 8 hour legs on a 4 day trip that credits 20 hours. So yeah with 5 hour MPG. His credit time is basically working out to 5 hours a day.
I am not saying that one career path is better than the other. I am simply trying to clear up some confusion about the airline side.
11-01-2014, 06:01 AM
#97
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 423
Originally Posted by NoSidNoStar
Let's remember that more than 50% of major airlines pilots are captains, and that most corporate pilots don't even brake 150k.
Its kinda like me saying..."airline pilots all make 23K" because a lot of RJ pilots make that.
One should choose his/her path based on more than money, but we shouldn't generalize....while I'd make it my personal goal to get to the top, not every pilot will be a 35yr Fedex Captain or a G650 Chief Pilot, nor do they want to be.
11-01-2014, 04:01 PM
#98
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Position: Toilet warmer.
Posts: 337
Btw, being 121 early w a great legacy carrier & loads of benefits later is still no guarantee from divorce or even happiness as many folks can attest.
HD
HD
11-02-2014, 05:42 AM
#99
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 473
Originally Posted by NowCorporate
Most large cabin corporate Captains START above 150K these days. 150-225K is becoming the norm for these positions/experience requirements. Managers are in the 200-350K range.
Its kinda like me saying..."airline pilots all make 23K" because a lot of RJ pilots make that.
One should choose his/her path based on more than money, but we shouldn't generalize....while I'd make it my personal goal to get to the top, not every pilot will be a 35yr Fedex Captain or a G650 Chief Pilot, nor do they want to be.
Its kinda like me saying..."airline pilots all make 23K" because a lot of RJ pilots make that.
One should choose his/her path based on more than money, but we shouldn't generalize....while I'd make it my personal goal to get to the top, not every pilot will be a 35yr Fedex Captain or a G650 Chief Pilot, nor do they want to be.
As Airline CEOs in the Millions? We are talking about pilots. And still, what percentage makes what EVERY major airline captain makes? (above 200k) And EVERY major FO that decides to upgrade?
Which corporate has 16% contribution with zero pilot contribution?
The 23k regionals compare to the small 135, so not talking about that.
11-02-2014, 05:49 AM
#100
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 473
Originally Posted by Airhoss
Couple of things here that you are not understanding.
UAL has no provision to sell back vacation. You either use it or the unused credit goes into a retirement health care account at the end of the year.
The only people who are crediting 80+ hours a month and doing it in 10 or 12 days are the folks who can hold the really good quality high time 3 and 4 day trips. If you are flying trips with tiny little 8 hour legs on a 3 day, that trip is going to credit 16 hours. One day over sit for a day and one day back. Minimum pay guarantee is 5 hours a day. So the two 8 hour legs would override the mpg with 16 hours credit. FAR 117 has decreased the ability to do most of the really high time 3 day trips that we used to have BTW..
Do the math on how many of those trips it takes to make 90 hours. And the more realistic scenario might be two 8 hour legs on a 4 day trip that credits 20 hours. So yeah with 5 hour MPG. His credit time is basically working out to 5 hours a day.
I am not saying that one career path is better than the other. I am simply trying to clear up some confusion about the airline side.
UAL has no provision to sell back vacation. You either use it or the unused credit goes into a retirement health care account at the end of the year.
The only people who are crediting 80+ hours a month and doing it in 10 or 12 days are the folks who can hold the really good quality high time 3 and 4 day trips. If you are flying trips with tiny little 8 hour legs on a 3 day, that trip is going to credit 16 hours. One day over sit for a day and one day back. Minimum pay guarantee is 5 hours a day. So the two 8 hour legs would override the mpg with 16 hours credit. FAR 117 has decreased the ability to do most of the really high time 3 day trips that we used to have BTW..
Do the math on how many of those trips it takes to make 90 hours. And the more realistic scenario might be two 8 hour legs on a 4 day trip that credits 20 hours. So yeah with 5 hour MPG. His credit time is basically working out to 5 hours a day.
I am not saying that one career path is better than the other. I am simply trying to clear up some confusion about the airline side.
Is UAL contract worst then JetBlue contract for the money bottom line? After the 16% contribution, what other perks you have that are unknown to the corporate folks? Is what you call a 3 calendar trip actually happens in 48hr? If not, how many hours? You can't clear up confusion on the airline career path if you omit important informations and only emphasize what you think is more significant due to your own experience.
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