Strategy
08-26-2016, 06:53 PM
#21
Bus driver
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 830
Originally Posted by Hank Kingsley
I want both. And I want it now, damn it! Kidding. Of course we want a great deal, but the chances are dwindling if there's not a united MEC directing one.
A great deal isn't one 2 or 3 years from now. TVM is actually a legitimate concept. The NMB has the hammer. Facts. Many of us did 5 years of B scale, and lost a multi million dollar pension. So we know what getting the shaft feels like. The time is now to get a deal. But I do have a strike fund. Do you?
A great deal isn't one 2 or 3 years from now. TVM is actually a legitimate concept. The NMB has the hammer. Facts. Many of us did 5 years of B scale, and lost a multi million dollar pension. So we know what getting the shaft feels like. The time is now to get a deal. But I do have a strike fund. Do you?
Take care
08-26-2016, 06:56 PM
#22
Bus driver
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 830
Originally Posted by Scoop
No rush, I consider it a balance. I don't want to delay a good deal forever in pursuit of "The perfect deal" but I certainly don't want to rush just to get any deal.
I have no problem with any deal the MEC passes going to the Pilots for a vote. I trust the collective wisdom of 13,000 Pilots more than the wisdom of 19 Pilots.
Finally - If the MEC passes and pushes a crap deal, like last time, it will be voted down again.
Bonus Points - Who said the following (No google allowed)
"A simple question
Concerning time:
Suppose you wait forever
And then you change your mind?
Oh, no!
That's the trouble with never,
Sure could be a mighty long time."
I have no problem with any deal the MEC passes going to the Pilots for a vote. I trust the collective wisdom of 13,000 Pilots more than the wisdom of 19 Pilots.
Finally - If the MEC passes and pushes a crap deal, like last time, it will be voted down again.
Bonus Points - Who said the following (No google allowed)
"A simple question
Concerning time:
Suppose you wait forever
And then you change your mind?
Oh, no!
That's the trouble with never,
Sure could be a mighty long time."
I had already pulled up my google page, before I read your qualifier! You got me with that one...
Take care
08-26-2016, 07:35 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Originally Posted by Tanker1497
Fair enough Sink r8. The NMB may apply pressure, but can't force either sides hand with regard to the negotiations (yet). Retro would be nice, but not if the deal isn't. I have to disagree with your point about what the average pilot is looking at and seeing, with the transparency that has allowed us a peak behind the curtain. I would argue that the middle of two openers is not much more than TA 15 offered, with the concessions factored in. That vote wasn't even close, so it would take a lot more to put if over the top.
Thanks for the thoughtful tone. Reminds me of someone when he was in his second year.
Midway between the openers would be ~2X TA1. I bet you 95% of us would breathe a sigh of relief.
Let's not worry about that right now. The MEC needs to figure out whether they actually killed our chances today, or not.
The purpose isn't to be right, it's to help the union do right by the pilots.
Later.
08-26-2016, 08:40 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2015
Position: Power top
Posts: 2,959
Originally Posted by Tanker1497
TVM is legitimate, I won't argue that. But I also won't deny the TVC (concessions). That factors greatly into my overall analysis. I didn't do the B scale, or lose the pension, so I can only imagine how hard that was. I agree, now would be good, but only if the deal is worthy. As for the strike fund, February 14 of this year was very helpful in that regard!
Take care
Take care
08-27-2016, 12:03 PM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: 7ERA
Posts: 269
Originally Posted by D Mantooth
That toddler thing is ironic. It's exactly how I view the "no concession" crowd. Like a toddler demanding more ice cream; it's just not going to happen.
As far as our leverage growing, now you're at least touching on a strategy. Kudos. Unfortunately, none of those things represent leverage if we continue to insist on not trading them.
As far as our leverage growing, now you're at least touching on a strategy. Kudos. Unfortunately, none of those things represent leverage if we continue to insist on not trading them.
Understanding the limits of your leverage is key. Knowing the difference between wants, desires, and where the deal lies, is understanding the art of the deal.
Its not a popularity contest, and requires decision makers to act like leaders. They need to understand the politics but be willing to vote against their personal politics if its the correct thing to do, even if it means harm to the office or position they hold.
This pilot group also needs to understand that you can play your hand too far. Pilot shortage? Yep it helps but you play hardball on the 76 seat RJ issue and cannot pivot, it becomes a cash hole for the company when they cannot break the long-term contract. It escalates to a crisis level, and your 1500 hour rule comes under attack with a fourth track to a restricted ATL One that is about 500-750 hours for a civilian. It also will take your beloved PS and give it to regional pilots to sign on. Manage the issue and understand the next issues to face us. Put your negotiating capital in the correct areas.
Understanding leverage goes farther than PWA items. It goes beyond this round of negotiations. It requires you to see point like the 1500 hour rule as a rule that need to be kept. To do so, you need to manage the issues correctly and strategically. If you don't, the space you negotiate in will change and your leverage will as well. Supply side economics will slap you in the face.
08-27-2016, 12:24 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,638
Originally Posted by Rogue24
Leverage is identifying something the other side wants or needs and then be willing to address it at the negotiating table. Some things are off limits, but a want you are willing to address from the other party is leverage. Conversely its not leverage if you are not willing to address it.
Understanding the limits of your leverage is key. Knowing the difference between wants, desires, and where the deal lies, is understanding the art of the deal.
Its not a popularity contest, and requires decision makers to act like leaders. They need to understand the politics but be willing to vote against their personal politics if its the correct thing to do, even if it means harm to the office or position they hold.
This pilot group also needs to understand that you can play your hand too far. Pilot shortage? Yep it helps but you play hardball on the 76 seat RJ issue and cannot pivot, it becomes a cash hole for the company when they cannot break the long-term contract. It escalates to a crisis level, and your 1500 hour rule comes under attack with a fourth track to a restricted ATL One that is about 500-750 hours for a civilian. It also will take your beloved PS and give it to regional pilots to sign on. Manage the issue and understand the next issues to face us. Put your negotiating capital in the correct areas.
Understanding leverage goes farther than PWA items. It goes beyond this round of negotiations. It requires you to see point like the 1500 hour rule as a rule that need to be kept. To do so, you need to manage the issues correctly and strategically. If you don't, the space you negotiate in will change and your leverage will as well. Supply side economics will slap you in the face.
Understanding the limits of your leverage is key. Knowing the difference between wants, desires, and where the deal lies, is understanding the art of the deal.
Its not a popularity contest, and requires decision makers to act like leaders. They need to understand the politics but be willing to vote against their personal politics if its the correct thing to do, even if it means harm to the office or position they hold.
This pilot group also needs to understand that you can play your hand too far. Pilot shortage? Yep it helps but you play hardball on the 76 seat RJ issue and cannot pivot, it becomes a cash hole for the company when they cannot break the long-term contract. It escalates to a crisis level, and your 1500 hour rule comes under attack with a fourth track to a restricted ATL One that is about 500-750 hours for a civilian. It also will take your beloved PS and give it to regional pilots to sign on. Manage the issue and understand the next issues to face us. Put your negotiating capital in the correct areas.
Understanding leverage goes farther than PWA items. It goes beyond this round of negotiations. It requires you to see point like the 1500 hour rule as a rule that need to be kept. To do so, you need to manage the issues correctly and strategically. If you don't, the space you negotiate in will change and your leverage will as well. Supply side economics will slap you in the face.
Maybe the MEC aren't the "checker players" critics are making them out to be.
08-27-2016, 12:49 PM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: 7ERA
Posts: 269
Originally Posted by Planetrain
+1, Well put.
Maybe the MEC aren't the "checker players" critics are making them out to be.
Maybe the MEC aren't the "checker players" critics are making them out to be.
When the lawmakers start getting calls from their constituents because they cant get to see Grandma for under 400 bucks a ticket or their flights are getting canceled, that's when they will act. The longer we keep that from happening the longer our negotiating space remains in our favor. Our goal should be to correctly identify the issues and protections we need for the next few rounds of bargaining, and not over pay on items that, if the rules remain intact will be self correcting.
08-27-2016, 01:11 PM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: 757 Left
Posts: 1,306
Originally Posted by Rogue24
Time will tell. They have a difficult job. They will have to make decisions that are not popular, and may lead to their recalls. Looking at the bigger picture and how action or inaction today will lead to bigger issues tomorrow is very critical. Especially with the bulge of retirements coming.
When the lawmakers start getting calls from their constituents because they cant get to see Grandma for under 400 bucks a ticket or their flights are getting canceled, that's when they will act. The longer we keep that from happening the longer our negotiating space remains in our favor. Our goal should be to correctly identify the issues and protections we need for the next few rounds of bargaining, and not over pay on items that, if the rules remain intact will be self correcting.
When the lawmakers start getting calls from their constituents because they cant get to see Grandma for under 400 bucks a ticket or their flights are getting canceled, that's when they will act. The longer we keep that from happening the longer our negotiating space remains in our favor. Our goal should be to correctly identify the issues and protections we need for the next few rounds of bargaining, and not over pay on items that, if the rules remain intact will be self correcting.
This time if they can make a reasonable deal, put out a pro con and answer questions. Don't sell it. A good deal will sell itself. If they do the best the can for the group they won't have to worry about recalls. If they can't get a reasonable deal we regroup, unify, and move to plan B.
08-27-2016, 01:38 PM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: 7ERA
Posts: 269
Originally Posted by Hawaii50
I think the recalls were driven mainly by them selling an obviously bad deal so hard. They could have just said, we have a chance for an early but mostly crappy deal, what do you guys think?
This time if they can make a reasonable deal, put out a pro con and answer questions. Don't sell it. A good deal will sell itself. If they do the best the can for the group they won't have to worry about recalls. If they can't get a reasonable deal we regroup, unify, and move to plan B.
This time if they can make a reasonable deal, put out a pro con and answer questions. Don't sell it. A good deal will sell itself. If they do the best the can for the group they won't have to worry about recalls. If they can't get a reasonable deal we regroup, unify, and move to plan B.
Don't bet on it. I would also not characterize every "yes" rep as massively selling anything. Not as bad as the internet said it was, yes.
No rep I talked to called it a great deal. It was the deal.
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