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Changes In Scope

Old 08-29-2016, 10:14 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I'd buy that logic if each contract existed in a vacuum with an automatic reset at expiration. While I disagree with your direct hiring into left seat prediction, let's say it does happen. Do you think that will happen forever? I'll bet my life the answer is "no". But we let more RJ scope relief into the contract, that is in for good, unless we bargain away something else to get rid of it. Why do that when we don't have to? I wrote all of that to agree with your last sentence...so we should not even entertain the idea of more large RJs.
I have made it crystal clear that I think their RJ 'need' is a throwaway item. But ya'll are getting... again... wrapped all up in something that is going away, and are willing to pay dearly (to use the term time value of concessions) to prevent something that will die on it's own accord. We did it before, and we'll do it again.

And nothing is forever in this business.
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Old 08-29-2016, 10:25 AM
  #42  
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I would also get a speed restriction in your section one as there are two 44 seat supersonic passenger jets in development, one is funded by Airbus, and due out in less than 5 years.
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Old 08-29-2016, 11:28 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by TED74 View Post
I won't completely trust the wisdom of 13,000 on scope unless I become confident that a thorough, fair and unbiased pro/con paper on the topic is made available (and openly debated) well before MEMRAT. I'd hate to see a TA get voted up OR down on bad information/misunderstanding and I don't think we can or should "wing it" on scope. Come to think of it, VB/TDY and VEBA are going to need significant informational material for the same reasons.

We will have to disagree here. I trust the wisdom of the Pilot group. Did you completely forget about the smack down the MEC received after trying to pull off exactly what you say above?

The days of the MEC/NC putting out one sided information are clearly over. They are committed to a Pro/Con paper and as we have seen last year even if they don't there will plenty of Pro/Con thoughts out via social media.

A good deal will pass and sell itself. A crap deal will go down in flames (again) no matter how hard it is sold.

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Edit: I said "The days of the MEC/NC putting out one sided information are clearly over." I just viewed the UPS- DAL comparison on the DALPA site, I now retract that statement. Apparently the MEC does not seem to learn from past mistakes.

Last edited by Scoop; 08-29-2016 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 08-29-2016, 11:33 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by 300SMK View Post
I wonder how the former AAL Fokker 100 and NWA DC9-10 pilots would've felt about seeing a CRJ-900, MRJ or E-Series parked next to them? Exactly, it would've been nuclear.

Stop making the same mistakes and trying to justify bad decisions of the past. Scope is not for sale, your generation did not manage it well. We all have an employment contact with DL, Section 1 is the only link to the rest of that flying.
And yet, despite "better" scope clauses, the Fokker100s and DC-9s are gone anyway. Did RJs at DAL cause that, or economics?

UAL and AA pilots have done great things, and also not so great things over the years in terms of "holding the line" and all that.
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Old 08-29-2016, 11:39 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by 300SMK View Post
Why do we insist on being the industry leader in destroying domestic scope clauses? C12 brought more 76-seaters to DL and subsequently added them to AAL and UAL through their loss of leverage as a result.

That can change in the blink of an eye! Remember the financial crisis of 2008 and age 65? You are aware that overseas carriers have retirement ages beyond 65 and financials across the oceans on either side are not looking real hot.

Despite SEA being a hub, the carveout for LAX remained in the TA- they could still fly to and from LAX and from LAX and SEA to any non-DL airport.

They aren't here yet. In my nine years we have ordered other airframes, even installed a sim, and yet there was never an AE for any of those planes.
They showed up, they just went to foreign carriers.

I wonder how the former AAL Fokker 100 and NWA DC9-10 pilots would've felt about seeing a CRJ-900, MRJ or E-Series parked next to them? Exactly, it would've been nuclear.

Stop making the same mistakes and trying to justify bad decisions of the past. Scope is not for sale, your generation did not manage it well. We all have an employment contact with DL, Section 1 is the only link to the rest of that flying.

First of all you are preaching to the choir. As I said I was furloughed along with 1310 other DAL Pilots, in my opinion, as a direct result of a very poor Scope clause.

I don't know exactly what you mean by "my generation." Scope was a failure before I was hired and got worse real quickly. I lived through a wasted decade and was furloughed due to selling out scope when guys were on the street, DCI was hiring thousands, and DAL was parking mainline jets right and left. Excuse me if I don't see more 76 seaters as a crisis now when everything is 180 out from the last decade. The scope line is firmly drawn and the 100 seat jets are going to mainline. We held the line at 76 seats. Small Jet scope is the last war - JVs and Codeshares are the 800 lb gorilla now.

We have a different opinion of improving small jet scope. In my opinion if we fly a greater number of passengers via mainline and less via DCI we are improving Scope.
I voted yes on C-2012 and think that was a Scope win. We are hiring as quick as we can and new guys are achieving upgrades in times unheard of with "my generation" of hires.


Furthermore you say:

That can change in the blink of an eye! Remember the financial crisis of 2008 and age 65?


Well now this sounds exactly like the argument the MEC was using in trying to sell the POS TA-15. Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt (FUD) - remember? We better approve the TA because things could get worse.

Finally if this did happen and we were still negotiating do you think we would have more or less leverage?

Scoop

Last edited by Scoop; 08-29-2016 at 12:07 PM.
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Old 08-29-2016, 11:44 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by JamesBond View Post
Your logic is flawed. Deeply. Our jobs? I'll betcha that in the not too distant future we are gonna hire into the left seat, and you are worried about a handful of RJs.


And regarding the 777 thing..... Really?


Al that being said, I think the 50s will die on their own so none of this is probably necessary, but all this angst is much ado about nothing.
Interesting opinion....the reason why I started this thread is that things have changed immensely from just a year ago in the regional world and this new contract will probably have more of an effect on that change (for better or for worse remains to be seen). I have talked to guys at my regional (9E) that want the C-series here. They are obviously older and want the job security. Us younger guys want more to be brought in-house because it hopefully means more better paying mainline jobs. Either way it is a very interesting time in this industry...
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Old 08-29-2016, 12:26 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Herkflyr View Post
And yet, despite "better" scope clauses, the Fokker100s and DC-9s are gone anyway. Did RJs at DAL cause that, or economics?

UAL and AA pilots have done great things, and also not so great things over the years in terms of "holding the line" and all that.
Scope clauses are read as permitted flying, the longer it gets, the worse it gets. The strongest section one that could ever be achieved is a blank one.
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Old 08-29-2016, 01:33 PM
  #48  
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Scope is everything.

Why is it that no negotiating capital is being spent on tightening scope? Why must the position be "can't budge"?

Why not make ATL budge and recapture that scope? It's like running a race and shooting to finish second.

It's the same mistakes over and over at our mainline carriers. Forgetting scope to capture the highest hourly rates for bragging rights. What am I missing?
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Old 08-29-2016, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by SmitteyB View Post
Scope is everything.

Why is it that no negotiating capital is being spent on tightening scope? Why must the position be "can't budge"?

Why not make ATL budge and recapture that scope? It's like running a race and shooting to finish second.

It's the same mistakes over and over at our mainline carriers. Forgetting scope to capture the highest hourly rates for bragging rights. What am I missing?
Complicating the issue, is the fact that some of the regionals actually own a piece of Delta's market share. If they give that flying up, it goes back to the government for re-bid, thus due to anti-trust, Delta potentially loses that market share forever. Those gates owned by Skywest in ATL are a big deal, you could move a whole new airline in there with that number of gates.
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Old 08-29-2016, 02:14 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by SmitteyB View Post
Scope is everything.

Why is it that no negotiating capital is being spent on tightening scope? Why must the position be "can't budge"?

Why not make ATL budge and recapture that scope? It's like running a race and shooting to finish second.

It's the same mistakes over and over at our mainline carriers. Forgetting scope to capture the highest hourly rates for bragging rights. What am I missing?
I think that the C-series/up gauging strategy would naturally bring more of the flying in house. IIRC every year since 2012? The % of DCI flights has gone down.
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