N261ND

hey everyone...

This is my first post so go easy on me! I am an aspiring airline pilot who is 23 years old and have a 4 year degree. I recently received my private and just started on my instrument training. However, I am seriously considering changing paths, and going the military route.
I was just wondering if anyone knows which branch offers the most pertinent and relevant flying opportunities for aspiring civilian pilots such as myself (air force, navy, marines...), or is it just take your pick? Any comments or suggestions on things such as commitment required, or chances of not ending up in the cockpit after joining the military would be appreciated.

would I be better off commiting to the military for a few years and getting some excellent training, or taking the civilian route in the turbulant industry (training...instructing...regional...)?
I know that there is NO free ride, and that both of these routes require hard work and perseverance. I am not looking for an easy way out, I just want my hard work to pay off some day.

thanks!!!

FlyingJack13

Congrats on your first post, anyways, I believe you are facing a question that almost all of us have faced. I know I struggled very hard with whether I should go military or civilian. While working on my private I was in Air Force ROTC at my college in hopes of finding out more about becomming a military pilot. However, if selected for a pilot slot you must contribute quite a chunk of your career towards the military (I don't remember the exact number but I believe its in the double digits). After a year and a half in ROTC and attending a week long summer camp at an Air Force base, I decided that the military route was not what I wanted. Still to this day I am not sure of the exact reasons I got out, but its just kind of one of those gut feelings. I decided that if I went in the civilian side that I would be able to fly in my future as long as I could keep a current medical, and not run out of money. My suggestion would be for you to seriously look into either Air Force or Navy Officer Training School. I'm not positive how many pilots OTS produces, I believe the academies and ROTC are the biggest suppliers. Either way I dont think you are making a mistake, good luck on your decision.

OrionFE

I would go the military route. You would get some good free training and e few thoasand hours when you are ready to get out. By that time the Airline Industry might start to rebound. Also, you can do like many others do, continue to fly in the reserves to offset the early years with the airlines. I would shoot for the Air Force Heavy Jet time.

SWAcapt

N261ND, welcome aboard. My suggestion (opinion) is that if your goal is to be an airline pilot, then stay civilian. If motivated, you can be much farther along in your career than being locked into a lengthy military contract. I believe that the AF/Navy/MC are 10 years active with a total obligation of 12 years. I on the other hand had no desire to be an airline pilot and only wanted to fly tactical jets off of aircraft carriers. The performance of the equipment in the military and training are second to none. I wouldn't have traded my experience for anything. Things changed for me and I decided to leave the Navy, but not to become an airline pilot (no airlines were hiring in 1992). I kept flying in th Navy Reserves while working as a Deputy Sheriff (also flying the Sheriff's plane). When the industry started to heal, I applied to American and got hired, only to be laid off three days later. I then realized that there was much more to the airline industry than just flying airplanes. I studied business models and put all my effort into SWA and FedEx. So here I am, 'on top of the world' but have great memories and friendships from my days in the sevice. All I'm saying is I would not reccomend the military as a training camp. Go in to serve your country and have an incredible experience in aircraft that will water your eyes. Don't go in with the desire to get out as you may feel trapped (you can't quit after they train you). Everyone is different, but as much as I like doing what I'm doing now, 30+ years would be too much for me. I'll retire from SWA with 24 years. I'm sure you'll hear different opinions and suggestions, this is just mine. Best wishes in whatever you decide. Aviation is awesome! Still loving it after 29 years.

capto

I would suggest the military since you'll get much better training, a lot of hours. And more than likely you won't be struggling to find a good job once you get out. Most succesfull pilots are former military, or guys with licenses in other aviation jobs like mechanics, dispatchers ectz.

TankerDriver

First post here and I registered specifically to reply to your post.

I will give you my honest opinion about the military vs. civilian dilemna since I have been on both sides of the fence.

Just to give you my backround; I started flying when I was 15 years old because I was obscessed with miltary aviation and wanted to be a fighter pilot. I got my PPL when I was 17 years old and went to that well known aviation school down in Daytona Beach, FL with plans to do their ROTC program. I really didn't have an interest in a career with the airlines when I started flying.

Well, upon arrival to college, I attended a ROTC presentation during orientation week for people interested in entering the program. I admit I was quite naive about the program, blinded by my dream of being a jet jock, and was ready to sign on the dotted line right then and there. However, thanks to good old mom, who raised her hand at the end of the presentation and asked a few key questions, my interest in the ROTC program was quickly flushed down the toilet. As she pointed to the F-16 poster behind the poor cadet who was about to face the wrath of my mother's questions, she asked: "Does everyone get to fly one of those?" His answer was, "Well... mam, not exactly. Your son will have to compete with a 100 or so other cadets to get a pilot slot.". Then she asks: "Well, what happens if he doesn't get a pilot slot?". His answer was, "Well, the USAF will find another job for him.". Obviously I walked out of there like someone just ran over my dog and that was that with the ROTC program. There was no way I was going to have the USAF pay for my education and then be commited for 4 years doing something I didn't want to do if I didn't get a pilot slot.

So, to make a long story longer, I wound up enrolling in their Aeronautical Science program and began to become more interest in the airline industry. I got all my ratings up to a CFII. I also wound up doing an internship with a major airline to get my foot in the door. After graduating, I got a job at the school as a CFI. Shortly after that, a friend of mine and I went in together renting a Seneca to build some multi time and 8 months later I was applying to a regional affiliated with the major airline I interned with. I was set up for an interview about 2 months out and the rest of my days as a CFI were numbered, or so I thought. It was August of 2001 and my interview was schedule to be in Oct. I'll give you 3 guesses if I ever had the interview or not and the first two don't count. For years, I kept hearing that I was in the best place and the best time and that the airline industry would be booming for the next 5-10 years. Of course, all that changed in a few seconds.

About a month after Sept 11th, I decided that I was going to go for that old Air Force dream of mine because I didn't have much else to lose. I knew I didn't want to be a CFI anymore because it was barely paying the bills and was burning me out, so I contacted an OTS recruiter and by January of 2002, my package was off to an OTS board for a pilot slot. I found out in March that I was accepted. I had some medical issues pending approval and since the US government is about as slow as a turd rolling up hill in the winter time, I didn't get an OTS class date until November of 2002. After OTS, I started Phase I and II of UPT. Although I wound up graduating in the top of my class, my interest in being a fighter pilot was no longer there and I decided to go the heavy route. Different factors in my life contributed to the change of mind, mainly getting married and just not wanting to be a "cowboy" anymore.

So, here I am, more than 2 1/2 years later flying KC-135R's. I graduated KC-135 school back in March. From start to finish, it took about 2 years, 4 months to get to my first flying assignment. Now, I'm not sure there are any other opportunities in the aviation world where you could be in the right seat of a 320,000lb aircraft in as little as 350 hours of training because in the airline industry, you'd probably be at about 10,000 hours before going to the right seat of a "heavy". The Air Force gives us a lot of responsibility doing what we do with very little experience. I sometimes think they're crazy for putting a crew with maybe 1500-2000 hours combined between pilot and copilot together to fly a 707 into combat and back. It's quite amazing to say the least.

To be continued ------> (thread to long?)

TankerDriver

I can say that the most fun I've ever had in an aircraft was here in the Air Force, however, this is the part where I will NOT recommend Air Force aviation as a stepping stone to the airlines. Sure, there are a lot of people who have done it. Probably a good 40% of airline pilots came from a military flying job and some still fly for the Air National Guard or Reserves, but if your plans are to get to the airlines, the military is going to be a long, painful road.

Honestly, after a little more than 2 1/2 years in service, I'm looking to get out of active duty. Now, this is totally based on my experience and the lifestyle/airframe I have been assigned to, but I joined the AF for the wrong reasons. I joined because I wanted a flying career and in the AF, it's about 75% bull$hit and 25% flying. It's officer first, pilot second and what do officers do? Paperwork, paperwork and more paperwork. Oh and answer phones all day too. The military is filled with more bull $hit than you can imagine. I really don't know how to explain it. I guess one word would be, "chaos". It is a lifestyle you'll either love or hate. It is a lifestyle in which being able to plan your life is impossible because you never know where you will be and when or how long you will be there. It's serving your country no matter what. Whether you've got a wife and kids at home that you haven't seen in 3 months and 3 weeks after you come home from that deployment they need you to go out again for another 2 months, that's the job. Your life and family are second when you're on active duty and that's something you're going to have to accept and deal with and it's something that I've realized I don't want to deal with for the next 9 years. I'm sick of moving and my wife has to deal with not being able to find a job with a bachelors, MBA and masters degrees because most AF bases tend to be in not so economy rich places with many job opportunities. She's got the potential to make twice as much as I do and can't find a job. Great, huh? Again, the military will be about you and not your family. Your family just follows you around. Kind of a blunt way of putting it, but it's true.

Another thing is, as you make rank, they gradually take you out of the cockpit and make you fly a desk. Again, officer first. Flying is only half the job. I deployed a few month ago for 60 days and flew roughly 215 combat hours in that time. Not bad, you probably say. True, it was a good bit of flying, but when we're home, we don't fly much. I've been home for alittle over 5 weeks and I've only flown twice. Roughly 12 hours of flight time in 5 weeks. The rest of the time, I'm in the office doing a desk job. It sucks. I would actually rather go back to flying Cessna 172's for 6 hours a day, 6 days a week if I could pay my bills doing it. At least I felt like a pilot doing that.

Speaking of $$$. Just to compare salary, I went from making $18-20k a year as a CFII planning on making $20-22k a year as a FO for a regional to making $35-40k as a 2nd Lt in the Air Force. I will not lie. Pay as an officer is quite good and once you've become accustomed to it, it's hard to leave. After 2 1/2 years, as a 1st LT, I'm making about $65k a year when you factor in all the benefits we get (free health care, tax free deployments, extra pays while deployed, etc...). The pay is good and it goes up sharply during your first 4-5 years. With 4 years in service as a Captain, you could make $75k a year. Not bad, but again, the lifestyle sucks in my opinion. I would take a $20,000 pay cut right now to walk out the front gate and never look back at active duty. Trying to make it financially as a CFII and then regional pilot is tough, especially with family. I don't know how people can do it unless their spouses make a decent buck to help, but $20k a year doesn't go very far when you could be spending $10k on just rent alone. This is after spending $25-30,000 on flight training (or more). If you do 12 years in the Air Force, you'll be making near $100,000 a year. You'll have to deal with a major pay cut coming from that to being on probation making $30k a year. You won't make that kind of money with a major airline for 4-5 years. This is something to think about. You may have a wife and 2 or 3 kids at home, faced with having support your family, which may not have been an issue on active duty.

If I were you and if I were to do it all over again, I would go for the Air National Guard or Air Force Reserves flying something heavy. KC-135's, C-17's, C-5's, etc if you want someone to pay for your training and get to an airline. Right now, the only way for you to get into active duty would be to apply to OTS or OCS and the chances of getting a pilot slot with Force Shaping going strong, is slim. You'd probably have as good of a chance, if not better, to get a slot with an Air National Guard unit. They'll send you to a 6 week officer course and then to the same AF pilot training active duty guys go to. After getting your wings, you go back to your unit and you basically fly part time. You will not have active duty benefits, but you will make at least as much if not more than you would at a regional airline and after building up some flight time, you can get a job with a regional while you're in the guard. The ANG is a part-time job, unless you're unit is activated and you deploy (which doesn't happen very much with heavies, except C-130's). Better lifestyle, less BS and you've got the option to fly as much or as little as you want in addition to getting a civilian flying job also.

I mentioned, "Force Shaping". Right now, the Air Force has too many officers commissioned in 2000-2004, alot of which are pilots. They're attempting to get rid of over 3,000 officers by next Sept and have provided a program, which allows active duty officers to voluntarily separate and go to an Air National Guard unit. This is actually something I'm seriously looking into. At almost 2,000 hours of total time, 700 of which is multiengine and 600 of which is turbine time, I'd love to get out and fly for a regional and the ANG (I'm even looking into fractionals). So, like I said, it will be hard to get an active duty pilot slot. OTS is the toughest way to get a pilot slot. There are usually only about 100 slots a year allocated to OTS for the whole country. The AF Academy and ROTC get most of the slots. OTS gets the crumbs left over. Getting a slot with an ANG unit will be just as hard, maybe a bit easier. The problem with active duty is, if you for some reason wash out of AF pilot training, whether it be because you can't take the aerobatics and g-forces or because of medical issues, whatever it may be, you are a commissioned officer in the USAF and they will give you another job for 4 years. Whether that is a risk you want to take, that's up to you. With the ANG, they'd probably let you out because you'd really be no use to them.

Again, this is my take on things based on my personal experience. "The gass is always greener.". I would get as many opinions as you can and do your research before making a HUGE decision that will affect the next 12 years of your life like joining the military as a pilot. Pilot commitments are 10 years right now which starts from the day you get your wings. It takes roughly a year and a half from commissioning to get your wings, so you'd be in the military for AT LEAST 11.5 years.

mike734

Do you want to fly high performance fighters? If so, then go military and give it your best shot. I would love to fly them. It's never going to happen for me and that is something I will have to live with. I'm sure getting your wings is one of the prouder moments in a pilots life. Remember life is a journey not a destination.

Fools & Horses

The bottom line is, you are the only one who will determine what kind of pilot you will become. It doesn't matter whether you go military or civilian. If you do go the military route, I can tell you this (and there are many here who will dispute/mock/criticize this), go with the Marines. I flew for almost 19 years with American, and I never flew with one Marine who was incompetent. Personally, I'd go the civilian route again; however, if I had had the opportunity and were so inclined, I'd have tried for the Marines.

TankerDriver

He says he's an aspiring airline pilot, not an aspiring military pilot. I said it before and I'll say it again. Unless you are 100% sure you want that kind of life, do not use the military as a stepping stone to get to the airlines. Yes, the training is "free", but they've got you for 12 years and if you end up not enjoying that type of life, you're going to be miserable. Trust me. I write this after an 8 hour day of admin work and answering phones. I'd rather be pranging it on in a 172 teaching a brand new student how to fly or on a 4 day trip with a regional for $20k a year.

Air National Guard or Reserves. You can enjoy both sides of the fence.