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Old 01-17-2009, 09:22 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Part 141 Commercial requirments/cost

Ok I have about 100 hours TT with my private and instrument. My question is what would be the most cost effective way to get my single engine commercial. I have done all training part 61 so far. Part 61 requries 250TT to be eligible for commercial certificate with a minimum of 20 hours of dual as i understand it. Part 141 requries 190TT with ? minimum hours of dual.

Obviosuly building to 190 sounds better than 250 for cost. But it depends on how much minimum dual is needed for part 141 and I am having difficulty interperrting Appendix D to part 141. Specifically the difference between the 120 hour requirment in section 4(a)1 and the 55 hour requirment in 4(b)1

Whats the difference between "flight training" in 4(a) and "flight training from a certificated flight instructor" in 4(b)1

So again, the basic question is what is the minimum amount of dual i need in a part 141 school for my commercial certificate.

Hope the question makes sense :0)

Thanks
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Old 01-17-2009, 09:38 AM   #2 (permalink)
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You probably need to stick with 61. Generally in 141, you need to complete the ENTIRE training program, including ALL required lessons...basically it's hard to get credit for your existing flight time.

Part 61 you need 150 more hours.

Part 41 you would need at least that, maybe 190 more depending on the school.

There is a provision I believe for "testing out" of some 141 training, but most schools don't have the procedures in place for that IIRC.
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Old 01-17-2009, 02:52 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Default 141 Commercial go for it!

The 141 commercial is a 120 hour program. The 120 hours include 55 hours of dual and 65 hours solo. 141 (a)(1) is 120 of training which includes dual and solo. 141 (b)(i) is the 55 hours of dual needed.

If you go 141, you'll do 120 hours which will have you at 220 hours when you get your commercial SEL since you already have 100 hours.

Don't let the difference in dual time with the 141 program stop you from going that route.

Here's the scenarios:
Part 141
35 hours more dual time than Part 61. If the instructor is $35/hr then you'd pay $1,225 more for the instructor under 141. But you are done at 220 hours

Part 61
Since you have 100 hours you'd need 150 more hours total. That's 30 hours more than part 141. Those extra 30 hours will be done solo and if we assume an aircraft rental rate of $110 an hour the cost would be $3,300.

Conclusion
$3300-$1225=$2075. With the above example you would save $2075 by going Part 141.

Hope this helps.
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Old 01-17-2009, 06:59 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLCFI View Post
The 141 commercial is a 120 hour program. The 120 hours include 55 hours of dual and 65 hours solo. 141 (a)(1) is 120 of training which includes dual and solo. 141 (b)(i) is the 55 hours of dual needed.

If you go 141, you'll do 120 hours which will have you at 220 hours when you get your commercial SEL since you already have 100 hours.

Don't let the difference in dual time with the 141 program stop you from going that route.

Here's the scenarios:
Part 141
35 hours more dual time than Part 61. If the instructor is $35/hr then you'd pay $1,225 more for the instructor under 141. But you are done at 220 hours

Part 61
Since you have 100 hours you'd need 150 more hours total. That's 30 hours more than part 141. Those extra 30 hours will be done solo and if we assume an aircraft rental rate of $110 an hour the cost would be $3,300.

Conclusion
$3300-$1225=$2075. With the above example you would save $2075 by going Part 141.

Hope this helps.
Pretty good, but as Rick says 61 is usually the best option.

First, it costs money to set up a 141 commercial program so there are not as many out there even if you wish to go that way. Traveling to live near a school with 141 negates most of the cost effectiveness.

Secondly, you are probably going to need the total hours in the current job market. 30 hours is not that much of a difference in the total scheme of things if you need it. There are larger number of schools offering Part 61 commercial programs which offsets the extra cost of the additional hours by having access to cheaper aircraft- ie. using a 172RG rather than a new Piper. Part 61 time can be done in a J3 Cub at $25 an hour if you know what to do. Similar with instructor charges- always cheaper to go 61. In the situation where I am people rent brand new G1000 Skyhawks for $70 an hour. You would have to be nuts to turn that down on account there is a time penalty. My current sitation is somewhat unique I guess, but I would still go 61 in all but the most rare case.

There's another thing, which is that all those hours of dual under 141 are pretty much baloney. It just doesn't take that much dual to teach someone how to do cross countries a little bit better and to do a few new maneuvers. I am speaking personally here as an instructor, but I think most students just need the solo flight hours to reach the magic 250 for the experience factor they get, and to add a lot of dual past 20 hours minimum just comes out to a lot of hand holding.
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Last edited by Cubdriver; 01-17-2009 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 01-17-2009, 09:28 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Food for thought...

Legally, part 141 schools are only able to credit up to 25% of their existing syllabus, since you've received all of your training part 61. So, of their 120 hr commercial syllabus, they can only credit you up to 30 hours towards their approved syllabus. One would require only 90 hours of training.

I only credit those hours though if they were hours spent working towards a commercial certificate. Hours towards your private and instrument would not qualify towards a commercial syllabus.

Last edited by multipilot; 01-17-2009 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 01-17-2009, 09:40 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I know our 141 commercial program is like 32 hours or so...
I know of people with a commercial license and like 120 hour total time
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Old 01-17-2009, 09:51 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I know our 141 commercial program is like 32 hours or so...
I know of people with a commercial license and like 120 hour total time
You guys use FITS?
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Old 01-19-2009, 09:06 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I got my private/instrument at a FBO under part 61 then went to a university that was part 141. However, as stated above, generally you have to complete the whole program with you. In our case, you had to complete the instrument course (you could get private on your own). Since I got instrument on my own, I got no credit (not even university transfer credit!) and while I got to fly the commercial course, I had to get the extra hours outside and take my checkride with their part 61 examiner (they keep one on staff). I ended up being short by about 1 hour when I did my extra flight time, but they allowed me to buy an hour in the FTD.
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Old 01-19-2009, 12:25 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by multipilot View Post
You guys use FITS?
I believe we do. Basically the FSDO signed off on the courses we used, and that's it? I don't know the specifics, but in theory one can walk out with a cpl and 120h tt
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Old 01-19-2009, 03:27 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Sellener,

This is just my $.02,

The information supplied to you so far is pretty accurate; I was in a 141 environment after doing my private under part 61. 141 can get it done faster, but it can also be much more expensive per hour than 61. That being said, I believe the 141 environment is often, but nowhere near always, an environment more geared to pilots with a desire to fly professionally.

If you decide to go 61, and have any desire to be a CFI, then consider the following:

You have 150 hours until you are even qualified to take your checkride. Why not take this time to transition to the right seat of the airplane? This will allow you to get fully prepared to fly the maneuvers from the instructor's station...If you can talk through maneuvers well and explain your actions in real time, your commercial checkride will seem only a little different than a typical CFI practical. This means that coming out of your commercial checkride, you will already have the physical skills necessary to fly the tasks to PTS. If you train this way, your focus following your comm/sel would then be honing your communication skills, broadening your knowledge base, and (if you haven't already by this time) putting together lesson plans.

Why spend 10-20 more hours of dual for your CFI when you can train through the maneuvers as a commercial applicant?

Since your question was pretty much answered above, I figured I'd throw this into the pile. I'm not advocating taking your CFI the day after your commercial...I'm basically just saying that by doing your whole commercial from the right side starting now (for the rest of your 150 hrs), you won't have to do anywhere near as much work in the air for the next ticket. Could save $1000s if done correctly and taken seriously.
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