blue34

Hello!

I have hundreds of Beech King air B200&B300 co-pilot time.
But I couldn't logged these flight time as "total flight time",
due to my country(ICAO country) regulations.
(Since King air is... one men operation aircraft.)

My company had a "company rule" that "King air needs 2 pilot
for operation".(PIC & Co-pilot)
So I logged these flight time on "blank space" of my logbook.

I read checklist, contact ATC, and some time I had the flight
control as a Kingair co-pilot.
Of course I know King air aircraft system well, and I can also
fly as PIC by air law. But problems is...logging king air co-pilot time.

I heard, in US, we can add these flight time as "SIC" or "Dual"
depends on operation. And in JAR operation, I heard we can also add it...

At US FAR part61.51, there are logging time definition. There are...
Solo time, PIC time, SIC time, Instrument time, Training time.
However, the "Dual time" is not defined at part61.51.

*Could you explain the "Dual time"?
*Does FAA admit my Kingair co-pilot time as "total flight time"?
*Dual or SIC???

Thank you for your help!

rickair7777

No you probably cannot log it for FAA purposes. Not even total time, it was basically an airplane ride. I hope you were paid well!

If it was a single-pilot certificated King Air the only way you can log the time as SIC would be if the operation was conducted under an FAA-approved Operations Specification which required two pilots, such as a 135 or even 121 operation.

Company and insurance rules don't qualify, the requirement has to come from the FAA (FAR or OPSPEC).

As far as dual...

1. The other pilot would have to be an FAA certificated CFI.
3. He would have to sign each logbook entry, and enter his CFI number.
2. Legitimate training would need to take place. You might be able to get away with ten hours in a situation like this, but hundreds? No way, you would get your certificates revoked for logging bogus flight time.

Walkeraviator

What he said... with one addition. Not only does the company's OPSPECs have to require two pilots, but you must also have a current PC to log the time as SIC. This means a current 135.293 check every 12 months. Some companies will even do a 61.57 ride on the 6 month interval (in our case, the Check Airman is there to do the Captains .299 rides anyway, so he gives us an IPC at the same time.)

Hacker15e

Is there any "value" to SIC time so far as applicants to US 121 airlines are concerned?

__________________
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blue34

Thank you! rickair7777, Walkeraviator, Hacker15e.

>rickair7777
>1. The other pilot would have to be an FAA certificated CFI.
>2. Legitimate training would need to take place.
>3. He would have to sign each logbook entry, and enter his CFI number.

Is "Dual time" equal to "Training time"? (FAR61.51-h)

>Walkeraviator
>Not only does the company's OPSPECs have to require two pilots,
>but you must also have a current PC to log the time as SIC.
>....299 rides anyway, so he gives us an IPC at the same time.

What is the meaning of "PC" and "IPC"?
I couldn't find out from US AIM...

I heard from my american friend, He said "Kingair co-pilot time is effective" in US. I will take ATP exam in US, so I am considering...whether I should add kingair co-pilot flight time "or not". It is no problem for requirement if I don't add this flight time.

I am happy if you could give me further advice. Thank you.

Walkeraviator

PC is proficiency check. It is the checkride you must take to be current under FAR 135.293 to act as SIC. IPC is Instrument Proficiency Check which is a ride which "may" be required to act as PIC of an aircraft on an IFR flat plan under part 91.57.

What I was getting at is... if your company's opspecs require two pilots, and you are given a checkride annually, you can log it as SIC. This is what I do at my current job. Just a hint... if you guys operate "eligible on demand" then teh opsecs should require two pilots.

snippercr

At the Regional level, yes. They only care about TT and ME, doesn't matter if it was SIC or PIC. Although a person with 2000 hours of king air SIC time right after their commercial would have a hard time getting their ATP with a required 250 PIC.

Majors want PIC time though. So if you were ever the PIC of said king air, that is turbine time which is good.

NoyGonnaDoIt

Yes. "Dual" is not a regulatory word. It's just a plain English word that is an easy way for training time to be referred to.

"IPC" usually refers to the "instrument proficiency check" referred to FAR 61.57(c). "PC" generally means some kind of proficiency check and you've already seen he's referring to the "PC" that's required for all Part 135 pilots under FAR 135.293.

Your friend is either thinking of SIC time under a company's Part 135 OpSpecs, one of the discrete other rules that allow logging of SIC time or he's just wrong. Wrong is pretty common in the logging time area.

This has been said before but to try to simplify a bit, there are two times that a pilot may log legitimate SIC time and you can find them both in 61.51(f): (a) when acting as the SIC of an aircraft that required more than one pilot under the certification rules for the aircraft, and (b) when acting as the SIC in an operation that requires more than one pilot under the "regulations under which the flight is being conducted."

The King Air is an airplane that is certified for single-pilot operations. So, one can only log legitimate SIC time in a King Air if the FAA rules (not company policy; not insurance companies) if the operation require more than one pilot.

Those rules may arise from a specific regulation like FAR 135.101, which requires an SIC in passenger-carrying IFR operations or from an "Operations Specification" which is a set of written rules for a specific company that is issued as part of a company's Part 135 certificate.

rickair7777

The latest trend is for middle-tier majors airlines like DAL, CAL, US, etc to hire some pilots with only turbine SIC, or less than 1000 TPIC. So there is some value, and you may see more of this as regionals stagnate and you get guys with ten years in the right seat of an RJ.

Thedude

How many of those where non-legacy, non-military white males ?
I can guarantee you the number is very close to zero.