ryan1234

exactly... the curve just shifts to be encountered "earlier", no total gain. This can be slightly confusing in application because of the reduction in thrust required (a "gain" in useful thrust, so to speak), this could alter what is "felt". - As well as the increase in pressure around the static source lowers the indication of airspeed.


There seems to be a misconception that an increase in a specifc C/L is a total increase in lift... this is not true... total lift can only be increased when C/Lmax is increased

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Cubdriver

Exactly, Ryan.

I have to go on the road now. Fly safe guys.

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NoBeta

WOW....some cat fight-ish stuff going on here...

Back on topic...

My experiance has been the low wings can float quite a bit in ground effect and mainly a result of excess airspeed as already stated. One thing I like about the piper I flew was visibility. I liked actually seeing where I was turning especially from base to final.

The cessnas I flew were great aircraft too. I don't care for the ground handling charactaristics though....I just did not like the feel of the nose wheel steering. Sometimes I felt like I was jamming the rudder pedal all the way in just to turn.

I loved the stability of the piper pa 28 series I flew. Had full stabilator, full trim and full power and she would'nt break......nose up about 20 degrees and nothin......she would just hang on and at 7000 and high density alt...

Both good aircraft IMO.

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shdw

WHAT!?!?!? Absolutely 100 percent wrong sir. Cl max is the limiting factor for a wings ability to create lift. Meaning above Cl max the wing is stalled, Cl max has absolutely no bearing on the lift a wing is creating at any given point in time. Cl max only means the limit at which the wing can produce lift before being stalled, in most lift formula it is found by (2 pi AOA) just to keep things simple.

Also, increase in Cl is unquestionably an increase in total lift. Lift = velocity squared * wing area * air density * coefficient of lift. How can Cl go up, a value in the lift formula increase, but lift not increase?


An aircraft does not feel, no more than you are effected by the wind outside the bus on the ride to work. (not saying you take a bus)


If Cl goes up, lift goes up period. period.

You agree with us, you just don't realize it. Look at a situation given this above statement: wings AOA 10 degrees producing 2000 lift to offset 2000 pounds. Now you said for any given AOA there is an increase (this increase is because of Cl) in lift when in ground effect. Leave the aircraft at 10 degrees now and put it in ground effect, by your statement lift has now gone up say 2100 pounds and you would balloon back out of ground effect if you left the AOA at 10 degrees.

So lift did go up didn't it? You reduced AOA to keep lift from going up in your example, but that doesn't mean it didn't go up. So, you see you agree, you just have some misconceptions in there.

ryan1234

This conversation... albeit interesting... has gone out of the scope of Cessna vs. Piper... so I'm going to start a new thread about lift in ground effect in the technical section...

Cheers

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shdw

Research that before you post an already answered question, that doesn't make a forum look professional. Do your research, ask questions if you have to after that but don't just throw up a thread asking "does lift go up in ground effect," that has been answered irrefutably. IMO you should understand that before you proceed.

Good luck sir.

cospilot

There are several reasons for the Cessna being the predominate flight training airplane. Maintenance, ease of flying, and price. But one of the things that I do not like is the visibility. The high wing is an issue for me. The Piper PA-28 though is easy to get into and out of and provides good visibility. I also like the way the PA-28 feels in flight. It feels more solid both from a control perspective as well as a construction perspective.

When I first started flying, I was in Cessna's. Then when I went to FlightSafety Academy, I started flying the PA-28.

I'll fly either airplane if I have a choice but when it comes to recreational flying or flight instructing I prefere the Piper PA-28.

One other note, Cessna wanted their product out there so they really pushed the marketing. Piper was not as serious focusing more on the higher-end pistons and turboprops, hence the large number of Cessna's around airports. There are probably other reasons though too.

Regards,

Jeffrey

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mshunter

And this does look professional?


Think before YOU proceed