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Old 07-29-2008, 06:52 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Question Training in USA - ratings to fly for foreign carriers

Hello,
Newby here. Please forgive what might be a stupid question, but I have not met anyone who can do anything but guess the answer to my question, even at the airline I work for now.

Given the state of hiring/lack thereof/furloughs here in the USA, hiring will be very limited, I am open to the idea of flying for a foreign carrier. I have to go the civilian route. I won't even have my commercial/multi ratings until late October at best. I am trying to get am idea of flying jobs other than CFI, but I will obviously have very limited experience. I know I have to build a lot of time before this is even a realistic option, but just trying to get an idea. I'm thinking freight dog or Alaska for building hours, but what after that?

So, I was wondering the best way to go about getting rated to fly for carriers outside the USA. I would like to find the most efficient schools, minimum hours/requirements, and anything else that factors into this (other than the obvious language obstacles).

I know I have a long way to go, but knowing more routes might help.

Thank you in advance.

Last edited by avi8girl; 07-29-2008 at 07:13 PM.
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Old 07-29-2008, 07:36 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Well you have airlines such as emirates, etihad, and airlines in China, India and Africa that basically require you to have PIC time on large aircraft.

You have Europe (who will hire low time pilots) but you need the right to work in Europe. You have to do the JAA conversion (lots of money and time consuming ex. FAA X 3) Then you will have to pay for a type rating for some airlines (lots of money) Obviously this all changes if you have PIC time on large aircraft but still there is a process.

I am still in your situation (working on ratings) but there really is no easy way to get jobs outside of America. You either need to have PIC time on large aircraft (which will take you a few years to get in America) or have the right to work in the EU, take the long hard JAA conversion, and possibly have to pay for the type rating. You could possibly try to go to Africa and get on with a small cargo outfit or something but even then you might need 1500 hours and remember there is actually african pilots.

After I had researched and asked around I came to the conclusion of working in America for a few years and then heading over to Europe (I have dual citizenship) Obviously with the current market that may not be easy but still with the cost to convert to JAA, the possibility of paying for a type rating, I have come to the conclusion that even now with the market in America the investment needed to work in Europe as a low time pilot is not worth it.

When your low time you really do not have much to offer any foreign airline so hence they are not going to help you. That is just my opinion and there is many pilots here with 1st hand knowledge of the foreign situation.
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Old 07-29-2008, 07:46 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Ahh, that is kinda what I suspected. I was seeing if I was missing something.

Thank you very much, Shamrock.

OK, freight dog outfit in Anywhere, USA or commuters, here I come!
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Old 07-29-2008, 08:05 PM   #4 (permalink)
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No problem, but again I am still in your situation (relying on 2nd hand info) so somebody else here might be able to give you better information.

I always thought airnet seems like a good way to go if you want to go the freight route. Barron to LearJet, 4 nights a week. Maybe Cape Air they were hiring first officers recently but normally you need 1500 hours. Alpha flying (planesense) they fly Pilatus pc-12 I think they are looking for 1000 hrs and they pay better than most starting out.

In the mean time while instructing I thought a flight school like Lufthansa flight academy in Arizona were offereing around 35K starting out if you had 200 dual given. Also there is Oxford academy in the same location, that might be a good school if you ever planned to work in Europe because of the name recognition. There are some flight schools in China and the middle east which hire foreign instructors. I have not heard much about the middle eastern schools but there is some bad posts in forums in about the schools in China, but again you need to know what you getting into especially with a country like China.

I would not be too depressed, the upturn in the market was short and in my opinion I don't think I would be ready to be an airline pilot with 250 hours. I was talking to an airline pilot recently and when I was talking about the downturn he said that if you cannot take the downturn in the industry when you are starting out you might as well go and do something else because you are going to be dealing with it for you career, maybe that puts some perspective into it.
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Old 07-29-2008, 08:28 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I only just heard about airnet today and am certainly saving the info ( I have a whole list of contacts ready to go when I get my quals). I'll add the others you mentioned to my list.

I had already decided that China, Middle East, Africa, and some in South America is not where I would want to be....at all.

I have taken a long time to get to this point due to $$$ for training, but the plus side is I won't have much debt when going to fly for peanuts. I think this will allow me to absorb the downtime. I'll also go ahead and get a seaplane rating because every little bit helps.

Thanks for the info. This subject or any other is appreciated. Anything else, please let me know.

I've been joking with a few SWA pilots that I will be happy to fly freight in Alaska, do overnights where I sleep in the plane or FBO as long as it at least gets me in the right seat to be thier FO, but it looks like that might turn out to be true. That's OK. Bring it on.
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Old 07-30-2008, 05:36 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Be careful what you wish for, but Im sure Koru or Typhoon or a few others will chime in. Theres plenty of expats here that have a lot of information. I dont know how good the job will be with low time but Im sure theres options. Also read into the threads on this forum since theres tons of information and also check pprune.org if you havent heard of that site yet since its loaded with information. Just take everything with a grain of salt and do whats best for you. Good luck!!
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Old 07-30-2008, 05:54 PM   #7 (permalink)
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pprune.org. No, have not heard of it. Checking it out now.

edit:
OK, well. Starts with the word rumour in it's title, so yeah, taking it with a grain of salt. Looks interesting and will bookmark it.

Just so many threads here (and there), so just didn't know where to start. Especially for such a new pilot like myself. Geez, I only just took the instrument written last week, so I know it's not like I was going to be walking into anywhere with a couple of thousand jet hours anytime soon.

Also, am trying to decide to use on of my free international passes to go check something out before this thing expires (the airline I work for doesn't fly international, so gotta plan).

Thanks, and again, any info is appreciated. The more the better.

Last edited by avi8girl; 07-30-2008 at 06:05 PM.
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Old 07-30-2008, 10:12 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avi8girl View Post
Hello,

Given the state of hiring/lack thereof/furloughs here in the USA, hiring will be very limited, I am open to the idea of flying for a foreign carrier. I have to go the civilian route. I won't even have my commercial/multi ratings until late October at best. I am trying to get am idea of flying jobs other than CFI, but I will obviously have very limited experience. I know I have to build a lot of time before this is even a realistic option, but just trying to get an idea. I'm thinking freight dog or Alaska for building hours, but what after that?

So, I was wondering the best way to go about getting rated to fly for carriers outside the USA. I would like to find the most efficient schools, minimum hours/requirements, and anything else that factors into this (other than the obvious language obstacles).

I know I have a long way to go, but knowing more routes might help.

Thank you in advance.
Unless you have dual citizenship being a low time pilot won't get you anywhere INT. JAA conversion is not worth it, except for EU nations, just about every aviation authority in any country accepts FAA. There are plenty of INT operators in Europe in the old Soviet block and in the Balkans that don't require JAA but even those countries require at least 1000 hours of multi crew/jet time and preferably an ATP. However, you still have to live in the country so there is the issue of immigration. The benefit of flying INT is that you will get good experience with large airplanes, no one messes with RJs in the rest of the world

If CFIing is not for you then your only option is Airnet not much else right now, nobody is hiring and when they do they won't be looking for 500 hour pilots anymore. Still I have never met anyone who regretted CFIing but I have met plenty that wished they got their CFI and instructed.
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Old 07-31-2008, 05:21 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avi8girl View Post
Given the state of hiring/lack thereof/furloughs here in the USA, hiring will be very limited, I am open to the idea of flying for a foreign carrier. I have to go the civilian route. I won't even have my commercial/multi ratings until late October at best. I am trying to get am idea of flying jobs other than CFI, but I will obviously have very limited experience. I know I have to build a lot of time before this is even a realistic option, but just trying to get an idea. I'm thinking freight dog or Alaska for building hours, but what after that?


I know I have a long way to go, but knowing more routes might help.

Thank you in advance.

Sounds like you have an adventurous side to your nature. If that is true then there are many places you could try. It's not always easy to break into some of the bush flying type jobs, but it can be done. The Kiwis and Aussies tend to go to Papua New Guinea to build time. A number of Europeans go to Kenya, Tanzania, Botswana, and other African countries. Of course Americans will go to Alaska. In almost all cases you have to be willing to go there without the job and start knocking on doors.

This statement is somewhat disturbing though:

Quote:
I had already decided that China, Middle East, Africa, and some in South America is not where I would want to be....at all.
Most of the foreign jobs that an American can get are in those locations. Silly to limit one's chances by being too picky. The best adventures tend to be in the least likely of locations.

Quote:
So, I was wondering the best way to go about getting rated to fly for carriers outside the USA. I would like to find the most efficient schools, minimum hours/requirements, and anything else that factors into this (other than the obvious language obstacles).
The American certificate is looked down upon by some because the theoretical knowledge required is significantly lower than in Europe and elsewhere. To get a JAR license takes about 4 to 8 months of ground study for the 14 written exams. There are places in the USA where it can be done. As mentioned, unless you have the right to live and work in Europe it really doesn't do you any good other than some of the other foreign jobs where they like that license over an FAA certificate. Most countries let you just take their "air law" exam then will provide a validation or temporary certificate based on your FAA one. Some will give you a permanent certificate after an "air law" exam and a checkride.


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Old 07-31-2008, 03:54 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Wow, a whole lot more to consider.

Quote:
The American certificate is looked down upon by some because the theoretical knowledge required is significantly lower than in Europe and elsewhere. To get a JAR license takes about 4 to 8 months of ground study for the 14 written exams. There are places in the USA where it can be done.
That is the type of training and license stuff I was wondering about. I didn't know that the American cert is looked down upon.

Quote:
Sounds like you have an adventurous side to your nature. If that is true then there are many places you could try. It's not always easy to break into some of the bush flying type jobs, but it can be done. The Kiwis and Aussies tend to go to Papua New Guinea to build time. A number of Europeans go to Kenya, Tanzania, Botswana, and other African countries. Of course Americans will go to Alaska. In almost all cases you have to be willing to go there without the job and start knocking on doors.
Adventurous is putting it mildly. Looks like Alaska might be my most realistic option here. I was already planning on using my next vacation time to go and get a seaplane rating at a school up there and maybe get a better idea of which doors to knock on.

Thanks for the info all. I at least am armed with a lot more information and I appreciate getting it from those who have been there.
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