OH MY! I just heard a news report mentioning that the plane was in maintenance just days before the crash. They made quite a rigamarow about it. Then they went on to explain it was for a MASTER CAUTION LIGHT! Well...at least they ended the report by saying "this problem seems to have had nothing to do with the accident". Then why report it? Is this journaliam in today's age. Come up with a piece of information hat even to the layman looks to have nothing to do with the real story and then practically report it as'"Breaking News'? Disappointing once again.
OH MY! I just heard a news report mentioning that the plane was in maintenance just days before the crash. They made quite a rigamarow about it. Then they went on to explain it was for a MASTER CAUTION LIGHT! Well...at least they ended the report by saying "this problem seems to have had nothing to do with the accident". Then why report it? Is this journaliam in today's age. Come up with a piece of information hat even to the layman looks to have nothing to do with the real story and then practically report it as'"Breaking News'? Disappointing once again.
USMCFLYR
Unfortunately in today's age of 24 hour news, journalist's throw something out and hope it sticks.
BTW I wonder if they explained what a MASTER CAUTION LIGHT was?
The old way of checking fact's first and then reporting was thrown out the window a long time ago.
Fred
__________________
There are old pilots and bold pilots ,but there are no old bold pilots.
Unfortunately in today's age of 24 hour news, journalist's throw something out and hope it sticks. BTW I wonder if they explained what a MASTER CAUTION LIGHT was?
The old way of checking fact's first and then reporting was thrown out the window a long time ago.
Fred
Not in the report I saw. It made me shake my head in disgust. I could just imagine them grabbing a copy of a MAF on my aircraft that said that one of the two MASTER CAUTION light bulbs were out and trying to make something out of it.
AMSTERDAM – Investigators said Wednesday a faulty altimeter played an important role in a Turkish Airlines crash that killed 9 people in the Netherlands.
The Dutch Safety Authority said the plane was being landed on automatic pilot and the problem with the altimeter, a device that measures altitude, led to a loss of airspeed before the crash.
The Boeing 737-800 carrying 135 passengers and crew went down in a muddy field one kilometer (less than a mile) short of the runway at Amsterdam's Schiphol Airport shortly before it was due to land on Feb. 25.
Chief investigator Pieter van Vollenhoven said the airplane had twice before experienced problems with its altimeter. Boeing has been instructed to warn clients of the problem, he said.
At 1950 feet (around 700 meters) "the airplane's left radio altimeter suddenly registered a change in altitude" of negative 8 feet (about 2 meters). "It didn't only register it, but passed it on to the automatic steering system," Van Vollenhoven said.
Van Vollenhoven said it was not unusual to land a plane on autopilot.
According to conversation recorded between the plane's captain, first officer and an extra first officer on the flight, the pilots noticed the faulty altimeter but didn't consider it a problem and didn't react, Van Vollenhoven said.
Gas to the engines was reduced and the plane lost speed, decelerating until, at a height of 450 feet (150 meters) the plane was about to stall, and warning systems alerted the pilots.
"From the "black box" (data recorders) it appears that then the pilots immediately gave gas, full gas, however it was too late to recover," Van Vollenhoven said.
He said that the pilots had been unable to see the runway at the time the plane began its descent due to weather conditions — cloudy with a light rain.
The plane fell into a freshly plowed field, striking the ground tail first and breaking into three pieces.
Those killed in the crash included five Turks and four Americans.
Turkish Airlines said the dead included the pilots.The American dead included three Boeing employees on a business trip unrelated to the flight.
Three pilots notice an altimeter error on the Captain's side, keep the plane on autopilot w/ auto-throttles engaged, descend 1500' in this configuration, and they don't do a thing until they get a stall warning @ 450' AGL (they just watch the TL's go back )? And, to top it off, the CA's a training captain (as posted earlier in this thread).
Really?
It sounds like they were perhaps going for an auto-land. If so, they would have gotten a warning when the altimeters or RA's disagreed (I'm no systems guru, but I'm pretty confident on this one). Regardless, with the automation on, who's not watching it like a hawk, especially below 1000? I just can't see 3 pilots all noticing a RA/altimeter error and choosing to sit on their hands and 'let George handle it', especially a training CA.
Alot happens on approach, put yourself in their shoes.
Visibility is poor, winds are blowing, its probably a little bumpy as they come down.They cant yet see the runway, and out of nowhere , a master light or aural warning sounds.
First Reaction?
PFD.MFD.EICAS!-> They check it out, by the time they realize what is going on its later than they would like. Throttles to the wall but yet too late. They were aviators, lets give them some credit SNIPER!
__________________
[B]06/15/09 -Time to show em' how we do things!
No waivers, no favors.[/B]
Alot happens on approach, put yourself in their shoes.
Visibility is poor, winds are blowing, its probably a little bumpy as they come down.They cant yet see the runway, and out of nowhere , a master light or aural warning sounds.
First Reaction?
PFD.MFD.EICAS!-> They check it out, by the time they realize what is going on its later than they would like. Throttles to the wall but yet too late. They were aviators, lets give them some credit SNIPER!
I agree, they cannot defend themselves here so let the Dutch "NTSB" do their job before we start engaging in speculation ...
Normally I don't speculate, but this is from the Dutch Safety Board.
Looks like an autothrottle led, bleed down to stall, with no crew intervention.
(A/C @ ~2000ft, RA1 fault occurs showing -8FT, A/T commands idle with unannunciated FLARE on the FMA with only 1CH A/P engaged, stick shaker activates at ~400ft with A/T still engaged and commanding idle thrust, throttles advanced manually but retard to idle when hand taken off thrust levers, throttles then advanced to firewall but too late.)
1
Today <4 March 2009>, the Dutch Safety Board has issued a warning for airline manufacturer
Boeing and presents its initial findings regarding the terrible accident involving the Boeing
737/800, Turkish Airlines flight.
This accident claimed the lives on nine people (5 passengers and 4 crew) and 80 passengers were
injured. Twenty eight of those injured are still hospitalised.
The Boeing was en route from Istanbul to Schiphol (on Wednesday 25 February 2009) and was due
to land at Schiphol at 10.40.
The Boeing had had a regular flight and no problems had been experienced until just before the
approach.
There were three people in the cockpit, the captain was located on the front, left hand side. On the
right hand side there was the first officer, for whom this was a training flight. (The first officer had
all appropriate qualifications). There was also an extra first officer in the centre of the cockpit.
The crew made contact with air traffic control (Amsterdam Radar) at 10.04 and was transferred to
the tower at Schiphol - for the landing – at 10.14. The tower then gave the Boeing permission to
land on the Polderbaan 18R.
The Polderbaan was approached according to fixed procedures, without any delay, and the Boeing
was then given permission to decrease its altitude to 2000 feet (about 700 meters) and begin its
descent to the Polderbaan.
This descent takes place with the help of the automatic pilot, as is normal with Turkish Airlines
(this method can be utilised by everybody, as can a manual landing).
The voice recorder and the black box, both of which are in the hands of the Safety Board, show
that an irregularity occurred during the descent, at 1950 feet.
At a height of 1950 feet the left radio altimeter suddenly indicated a change in altitude – from 1950
feet to - 8 feet - and passed this onto the automatic pilot. This change had a particular impact
upon the automatic throttle system which provides more or less engine power.
The radio altimeter normally measures the altitude of the plane above the ground very accurately
and can start registering this from 2500 feet. As already mentioned, this radio altimeter is very
significant for providing the appropriate power for an automatic landing.
A Boeing is fitted with two radio altimeters, a left one and a right one.
The black box has shown that this deviation only occurred in the left radio altimeter.
The voice recorder has shown that the crew were notified that the left radio altimeter was not
working correctly (via the warning signal “landing gear must go down”).
Provisional data indicates that this signal was not regarded to be a problem.
In practice, the plane responded to this sudden change as though it was at an altitude of just a few
meters above the Polderbaan and engine power was reduced.
It seems that the automatic system – with its engines at reduced power – assumed it was in the
final stages of the flight.
As a result, the aircraft lost speed.
Initially the crew did not react to the issues at hand.
2
As a result of the deceleration, the aircraft's speed was reduced to minimum flying speed (stalling
situation) and warning signals (the steering column buzzes at an altitude of 150 metres) were
given.
The black box shows that full power was then applied immediately.
However, this was too late to recover the flight, the aircraft was too low and, consequently, the
Boeing crashed 1 kilometre short of the runway.
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Last edited by TurnAndBurn : 03-05-2009 at 12:42 AM.
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I could just imagine them grabbing a copy of a MAF on my aircraft that said that one of the two MASTER CAUTION light bulbs were out and trying to make something out of it.
)? And, to top it off, the CA's a training captain (as posted earlier in this thread).
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