Working as a Pilot in China
08-21-2015, 05:24 AM
#91
Banned
Joined APC: Nov 2014
Posts: 309
Originally Posted by NEDude
Actually you can theoretically go indefinitely if you have a 'sleeping facility' available and you can 'have a rest' there. Because 'sleeping time is not calculated as duty time'. There is wide determination as to what a 'sleeping facility' is. My company has argued that the flight deck, while on delay, constitutes a sleeping facility. Also undefined is when the 'sleep time' begins or ends. My company routinely schedules days well in excess of 16 hours, with only two pilots, but has a built in 'sleep time' of five or six hours in the middle. Of course that sleep time is routinely reduced or eliminated due to delays, which leads the company arguing that if we rested in the flight deck during a delay then we are legal. I was threatened with suspension once last year if I refused to accept their defining the flight deck as a sleeping area. I stood my ground and they backed down, but I did get accosted by the replacement pilot who was called off of reserve. Recently the company has not been backing down though and guys have been fined and/or suspended for refusing to fly.
They tried that crap here about sleeping in the plane and we told them to take a hike. They know better and never pushed the issue. My days are nornally 10 hours , sometimes 5 hours if just doing one leg (this includes briefing)
The only time it gets to 16 is when there is huge delays and if we did Singapore or Harbin and were delayed.
While I'm def not a kool aid drinker I gotta say this is what scares me about other Chinese carriers when compared to SZA.
Another example they tried was with this 4 day Phuket trip. You leave at 11 PM on day 1, and you arrive back on day 4 at 7am. It's very easy and you stay at a nice resort.
However they tried pulling this crap where your 36 hours of rest (that's per caac but everyone knows we always get min 2 days) is spent in Phuket so you would get back on day 4 at 7am and then fly 4 more days for a total of 8.
We said no way. Our days off are here in Shenzhen. Period. End of story. And it hasn't happened since
08-23-2015, 04:25 AM
#92
Don't say Guppy
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Position: Guppy driver
Posts: 1,926
Your 36 hours of rest can absolutely be used as "rest" days, under FAA, EASA, CAAC, and ICAO rules. They are not "days off", but they are legal rest days for days free of duty over a certain (7?) number of days on duty.
My average duty day was much shorter in China than the US.
My average number of hours delayed per week/month was shorter in China than the US.
I was "screwed with" far more in the US than China by my company.
I was lied to much more in the US than in China.
I was paid much more in China, and got more time off.
And the best thing about China is this: The bottom 10%ers, like the ones complaining here, didn't last very long in China. The companies get tired of their games very quickly. The only thing good about them in the contract world, is they make the rest of us look good.
In the US, their antics and poor attitudes are protected under the umbrella of unionism.
Trust me, the vast majority of expats working in China are reasonably happy working there. It is not perfect. This thread is all about the bottom few who won't be happy anywhere they work.
My average duty day was much shorter in China than the US.
My average number of hours delayed per week/month was shorter in China than the US.
I was "screwed with" far more in the US than China by my company.
I was lied to much more in the US than in China.
I was paid much more in China, and got more time off.
And the best thing about China is this: The bottom 10%ers, like the ones complaining here, didn't last very long in China. The companies get tired of their games very quickly. The only thing good about them in the contract world, is they make the rest of us look good.
In the US, their antics and poor attitudes are protected under the umbrella of unionism.
Trust me, the vast majority of expats working in China are reasonably happy working there. It is not perfect. This thread is all about the bottom few who won't be happy anywhere they work.
08-23-2015, 06:25 AM
#93
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 747 captain
Posts: 1,549
Originally Posted by Probe
This thread is all about the bottom few who won't be happy anywhere they work.
09-04-2015, 07:55 AM
#95
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Posts: 58
Ima lay down a little ground rule for a minute:
I've been away a little bit and now have some time to comment and make updates. While I've been gone, some things have been claimed by folks that are just not true. Let's take a look:
Probe, I appreciate the time and effort you make to come here and comment, but I have firsthand experience over several years to the contrary. All of Duke's contributors have firsthand experience with this practice. I also have company and CAAC memos to show your claim is absolutely untrue. When you make these statements you immediately discredit yourself, and I'd prefer you didn't do that. But if you insist...
In Appendix I (p. 359 aka p. XV) the issue of duty time is addressed with 2 separate company memos from Tianjin which authorize and publish the names of numerous flight crews that operated flights over 15, 16 and 17 hours of duty. One is a screen shot and one is a cut/paste because I had to run them through friggn translate. To wit:
So, there that. As for the CAAC memo:
Wow, where do I start? Let's work it from the bottom up.
Gooby, plees.
I can't believe I have to state that I've been quite happy at many jobs, but not all. By way of rejoinder, I DEFY YOU to claim you have been happy at every job you've ever held. Nobody has. We've all had a sh!t job here and there. It happens. Now, if you want to put China at the top of your list of awesome jobs, that's your prerogative, and that's great man! Kudos, I'm personally glad you've had a blast with it.
BUT, if you're going to claim it's the bottom 10% who DON'T share your experience, you are WAY out of line, sir. The percentage, if that high, is opposite. IF 10% could make it through XYZ airline's interview and last 1 year, even that is a high number for the Chinese to advertise. AND BE HAPPY? Woah. I need some of the crack you're snorting.
Our group was estimating the Chinese at Tianjin and other Hainan "tentacles" were going through 30-50 expats interviewing just to get 1 on property for more than a year. That percentage dropped significantly after 2 years. If folks could make it through 4, then you were looking at people with excellent coping skills, tough knee guards and just the right shade of lipstick.
How I made it though the interview... hell if I know. God?
How I made it 4 years... hell if I know. Sold my soul to the devil?
How others I knew made it... hell if I know. Lots and lots of drinking was a good start, and I don't effing drink normally dammitall.
OK, LOL time.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA :-)
Love it!
"I was lied to much more in the US than in China."
HAHAHAHA :-) Beautiful. You made my day sir, thanks. Ima let folks read the book and dig through all the information and anecdotes we have to the contrary.
But, I don't want to leave you in the lurch, Probe. No, I want to point out where you are absolutely correct:
If by "games" you include QAR violations, complaints about flop-house-style hotel accommodations, disgusting food choices and preparation, etc. etc. all in a foreign country where people don't speak your language or culture then YES. YOU ARE SO CORRECT about the Chinese getting tired of expat antics it makes me shed a tear; and it's EXACTLY THIS that the book Flying Upside Down is absolutely trying to make clear and disseminate to the 30-50 would-be interviewee washouts who don't know what they are getting themselves into.
Lastly, let's unpack what's between the lines of this sentiment. It's just this kind of selfishness and clique behavior that drives some honestly good people away from China. I don't know what happens to people when they set foot in that land, but their wires get severely crossed. Again, the message FUD and Duke is sending to folks by and large is that contract pilot work IS NOT for everyone. Be forewarned and do not be fooled by an ad that claims you will be paid 300K to fly an airbus bump-and-grind around mainland China.
C.S.
IF YOU'RE GOING TO COMMENT HERE, GREAT!
DOWNLOAD AND READ THE DANG BOOK FIRST.
DOWNLOAD AND READ THE DANG BOOK FIRST.
I've been away a little bit and now have some time to comment and make updates. While I've been gone, some things have been claimed by folks that are just not true. Let's take a look:
Originally Posted by Probe
16 hour duty days are not authorized in China. Even calling the trainee on the jumpseat a "crew member" doesn't get you anywhere close to 16 hours. [Emphasis added]
In Appendix I (p. 359 aka p. XV) the issue of duty time is addressed with 2 separate company memos from Tianjin which authorize and publish the names of numerous flight crews that operated flights over 15, 16 and 17 hours of duty. One is a screen shot and one is a cut/paste because I had to run them through friggn translate. To wit:
So, there that. As for the CAAC memo:
I couldn't find it after a cursory run through. I have the original document in my volumes of notes as do a couple of others on our team. I just don't have the time to dig right now. What I think happened is it was included in a revision of FUD that got stuck on a drive that took a dump on us and we had to revert back to an earlier version that lost 6 months of material. I WILL find it though, and when I do I will post it here.
Next, let's unpack another set of wild claims:
Originally Posted by Probe
My average duty day was much shorter in China than the US.
My average number of hours delayed per week/month was shorter in China than the US.
I was "screwed with" far more in the US than China by my company.
I was lied to much more in the US than in China.
I was paid much more in China, and got more time off.
And the best thing about China is this: The bottom 10%ers, like the ones complaining here, didn't last very long in China. The companies get tired of their games very quickly. The only thing good about them in the contract world, is they make the rest of us look good.
In the US, their antics and poor attitudes are protected under the umbrella of unionism.
Trust me, the vast majority of expats working in China are reasonably happy working there. It is not perfect. This thread is all about the bottom few who won't be happy anywhere they work.
My average number of hours delayed per week/month was shorter in China than the US.
I was "screwed with" far more in the US than China by my company.
I was lied to much more in the US than in China.
I was paid much more in China, and got more time off.
And the best thing about China is this: The bottom 10%ers, like the ones complaining here, didn't last very long in China. The companies get tired of their games very quickly. The only thing good about them in the contract world, is they make the rest of us look good.
In the US, their antics and poor attitudes are protected under the umbrella of unionism.
Trust me, the vast majority of expats working in China are reasonably happy working there. It is not perfect. This thread is all about the bottom few who won't be happy anywhere they work.
Originally Posted by Probe
And the best thing about China is this: The bottom 10%ers, like the ones complaining here, didn't last very long in China. The companies get tired of their games very quickly. The only thing good about them in the contract world, is they make the rest of us look good.
In the US, their antics and poor attitudes are protected under the umbrella of unionism.
Trust me, the vast majority of expats working in China are reasonably happy working there. It is not perfect. This thread is all about the bottom few who won't be happy anywhere they work.
In the US, their antics and poor attitudes are protected under the umbrella of unionism.
Trust me, the vast majority of expats working in China are reasonably happy working there. It is not perfect. This thread is all about the bottom few who won't be happy anywhere they work.
I can't believe I have to state that I've been quite happy at many jobs, but not all. By way of rejoinder, I DEFY YOU to claim you have been happy at every job you've ever held. Nobody has. We've all had a sh!t job here and there. It happens. Now, if you want to put China at the top of your list of awesome jobs, that's your prerogative, and that's great man! Kudos, I'm personally glad you've had a blast with it.
BUT, if you're going to claim it's the bottom 10% who DON'T share your experience, you are WAY out of line, sir. The percentage, if that high, is opposite. IF 10% could make it through XYZ airline's interview and last 1 year, even that is a high number for the Chinese to advertise. AND BE HAPPY? Woah. I need some of the crack you're snorting.
Our group was estimating the Chinese at Tianjin and other Hainan "tentacles" were going through 30-50 expats interviewing just to get 1 on property for more than a year. That percentage dropped significantly after 2 years. If folks could make it through 4, then you were looking at people with excellent coping skills, tough knee guards and just the right shade of lipstick.
How I made it though the interview... hell if I know. God?
How I made it 4 years... hell if I know. Sold my soul to the devil?
How others I knew made it... hell if I know. Lots and lots of drinking was a good start, and I don't effing drink normally dammitall.
Originally Posted by Probe
My average duty day was much shorter in China than the US.
My average number of hours delayed per week/month was shorter in China than the US.
I was "screwed with" far more in the US than China by my company.
I was lied to much more in the US than in China.
I was paid much more in China, and got more time off.
My average number of hours delayed per week/month was shorter in China than the US.
I was "screwed with" far more in the US than China by my company.
I was lied to much more in the US than in China.
I was paid much more in China, and got more time off.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA :-)
Love it!
"I was lied to much more in the US than in China."
HAHAHAHA :-) Beautiful. You made my day sir, thanks. Ima let folks read the book and dig through all the information and anecdotes we have to the contrary.
But, I don't want to leave you in the lurch, Probe. No, I want to point out where you are absolutely correct:
Originally Posted by Probe
The companies get tired of their games very quickly... In the US, their antics and poor attitudes are protected under the umbrella of unionism.
Originally Posted by Probe
The only thing good about them in the contract world, is they make the rest of us look good.
C.S.
Last edited by CloudSpirit; 09-04-2015 at 08:10 AM.
09-04-2015, 08:27 AM
#96
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Posts: 58
One last parting shot:
Remember this, when your friend or whatever is trying to get you to go over to China because it's SO AWESOME, there is probably a significant finder's fee associated with that.
If you're going to follow up on that, you should be taking a piece! It's all about money, and bear that in mind when you find yourself on the street... Thanks friend. Bah, Union protection? Who needs that... LOL.
Remember this, when your friend or whatever is trying to get you to go over to China because it's SO AWESOME, there is probably a significant finder's fee associated with that.
If you're going to follow up on that, you should be taking a piece! It's all about money, and bear that in mind when you find yourself on the street... Thanks friend. Bah, Union protection? Who needs that... LOL.
Read the book.
C.S.
C.S.
09-04-2015, 09:01 AM
#97
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Posts: 58
Originally Posted by gearupflapsup
Downloaded it. Was a great read. Thanks for the effort and the warning......
We appreciate folks who do not like the book as well, we just reserve the right to mutually disagree, defend our information and parry name calling or other ad hominem.
C.S.
09-04-2015, 09:52 AM
#98
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Posts: 58
At the risk of blowing up this thread...
...with so many posts, here are some explosions that threaten to blow your mind. These videos blew mine.
These are the voices of expats living right down the street from this event. I haven't heard a "Holy sh!t" expressed quite like this since 9/11. A group of us expat pilots lived about 3 miles from the disaster area:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q04fV4j7A1w
Hear the baby in the background of this one and tell me you want to take your kids there with you:
Indeed, this is just one event. But it had an aftermath:This is just effin' GREAT:
Ya wanna stick it out in a country where, in the aftermath of something like this happening, you're surrounded by throngs of people who are oblivious to your existence, loudspeakers and TVs announcing things you can't understand, trying to get away from something happening and you have no car, there are no taxis (that will pick up your sorry sack), the trains are halted... and even if you managed to get to a station you forgot your dang passport and can't get a ticket or they won't let you on...
But don't panic, you're being paid 300K a year and you aren't being lied to (according to an earlier post in this thread).
And hey, it was just one event. We're good to go now, right?Maybe not so much:
Yeah, but this is really just an isolated event. Nope:
AaaaaaHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! LOL :-)
C.S.
These are the voices of expats living right down the street from this event. I haven't heard a "Holy sh!t" expressed quite like this since 9/11. A group of us expat pilots lived about 3 miles from the disaster area:
How would you like to be this guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-Ud7jgPqdEIndeed, this is just one event. But it had an aftermath:This is just effin' GREAT:
...the streets were covered with white foam and local residents who came in contact with the rainwater complained of 'stinging sensation' and rashes.
But don't panic, you're being paid 300K a year and you aren't being lied to (according to an earlier post in this thread).
And hey, it was just one event. We're good to go now, right?Maybe not so much:
...buildings across China that store toxic chemicals near residential areas or major roads, in violation of safety regulations, according to a review of satellite imagery and public records.
The Chinese government outlawed fireworks from 1993 to 2005, but ultimately lifted the ban under intense public pressure.
C.S.
09-04-2015, 10:09 AM
#99
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Posts: 58
Wow, ya step away for a second...
And a whole lot of stuff happens. Epidemic? Naw, you decide...
Sounds like a great place to go work for a few years.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++The Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) has penalized both China United Airlines and two pilots who reportedly started a fight in the cockpit.
The CAAC has imposed a 10% reduction on the airline’s existing route time, and in addition has restricted it from opening up any new flight routings, either scheduled or charter. The regulatory agency also banned the two pilots from flying for six months, and said the incident was “one of a series of contraventions” that China United had seen that resulted in flight bans on both the pilots and the airline.
Beijing-based China United Airlines is a low-cost carrier, which is an offshoot of full-service China Eastern Airlines, and operates a fleet of 30 Boeing 737 aircraft to mainly tier-two cities out of Beijing’s regional airport, Nanyuan.
CAAC said the carrier had recorded “seriously violated regulations” over the last two months, with one of its aircraft recently certified as not suitable to fly by pre-flight inspectors.
In another recent incident, one of China United's flights was recorded as flying “below a minimum safe altitude,” according to another report.
+++++++++
Ya know, come to think of it, I think I saw an ad for CUA with an urgent call for a foreign captain this morning in my inbox. 300K and excellent benefits...
Sounds like a great place to go work for a few years.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++The Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) has penalized both China United Airlines and two pilots who reportedly started a fight in the cockpit.
The CAAC has imposed a 10% reduction on the airline’s existing route time, and in addition has restricted it from opening up any new flight routings, either scheduled or charter. The regulatory agency also banned the two pilots from flying for six months, and said the incident was “one of a series of contraventions” that China United had seen that resulted in flight bans on both the pilots and the airline.
Beijing-based China United Airlines is a low-cost carrier, which is an offshoot of full-service China Eastern Airlines, and operates a fleet of 30 Boeing 737 aircraft to mainly tier-two cities out of Beijing’s regional airport, Nanyuan.
CAAC said the carrier had recorded “seriously violated regulations” over the last two months, with one of its aircraft recently certified as not suitable to fly by pre-flight inspectors.
In another recent incident, one of China United's flights was recorded as flying “below a minimum safe altitude,” according to another report.
+++++++++
Ya know, come to think of it, I think I saw an ad for CUA with an urgent call for a foreign captain this morning in my inbox. 300K and excellent benefits...
Last edited by CloudSpirit; 09-04-2015 at 10:19 AM.
09-04-2015, 10:32 AM
#100
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Posts: 58
Yeah... they were trying their hardest to put out this fire before it blew up. Probably not even sure they knew what they were getting into there. Look at these trucks, some with headlights still on. A whole lot of first responders lost their lives that night. Vaya con dios mis compadres.
My God:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5GsQXPOcPA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeRnBNE3HQk
My God:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5GsQXPOcPA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeRnBNE3HQk
Last edited by CloudSpirit; 09-04-2015 at 10:45 AM.
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