ShortBus_Driver

Does anyone know roughly how a 30 yr career at NJA currently compares w other majors in terms of total compensation? (wages, benefits, 401k, retirement, etc).

I can read the hourly rates off of this web site, but I've heard that due to NJets work rules you end up making a decent amount more than your base salary.

Someone told me that you can make as much there as at the Legacy carriers.

True, false? Thoughts?

Thanks

__________________
"You can get killed walkin' your doggie!"

Al Pacino - 'HEAT'

triflyier

When you factor in benefits like:
401k contributions, per diem you don't expend (NetJets feeds you), 100% paid insurance, and Captain's pay (sooner than most legacy)
NetJets is up there next to UPS, FedEx and maybe Southwest.

Also for what is going on with the airlines (4 gone in less than a month) who knows how many legacies will be here in 30 years, I think NetJets have a better chance to be around that long.

And is getting harder and harder to get on, so hurry up or you will miss the train!

UCLAbruins

TRUE

(you'll make more at SW, UPS and FDX)

As far as legacy carriers, too many variables to compare. At NetJets pay varies- 7/7, 15 or 18 day-sched. At the airlines pay also differs, wide-body vs single aisle.

I came from the airlines, some of the monthly expenses I once had:

-$120 crash pad. No commuting at NetJets.
-$200-250 meals. Free meals at NetJets
-$100 medical & dental insurance. Free bennies at NetJets, and they're better.
Plus the other little things (tip reimbursments, uniform allowence, etc)

Some people, specially the younger regional guys look at the pay scales, and say "you'll top out higher at the majors, I'll go there". I find it amazing they're comparing pay 25 years down the road, and making a decision base on that.

ShortBus driver, I'm not trying to sell you Netjets, just giving you some insight.

Ghost33

This year my base is $131,179-year 10, 15 day schedule- This tour I had 6.3 hours overtime @ $90.10 per hour on day one (started at 0500 and ended at 2235)... I'm on day 3 of 5 and have flown 1.8 hours this week.

My monthly average is 44 hours of flight time.

My per-diem is around $180.00 a tour. 3 tours a month.. They pay all of my uniforms, insurance etc. Only thing outta of my pocket is Union Dues..

They pay my travel to and from work..

What else can I say; o Yea if I'm tired I shut it down and go to a hotel no questions asked.. They pay for my flight physical... Doctor of my choice....

Great company.. O and I don't have to taxi fast and run people over like the SW guys because their pay is based on the moon phase or something.. Sorry had to say it...

snakeplt

THERE IS NO CORRECT ANSWER TO THE INITIAL QUESTION...but consider the following.

Just an example on how to figure out career potential:

Write down your age: 44

Write down your DESIRED age at retirement: 60 (Not when you MUST retire, when you WANT to retire)

Subtract: Desired - Age = 16 years

Select the airline(s) you prefer to work for: Delta vs NJA (just an example)

Here is the guess work: Use avail data to 'guess' how long it will take to make LEFT SEAT PAY: NJA - 5 yrs Delta - 8 yrs (based on data off of this website)

Review both CURRENT payscales at http://airlinepilotcentral.com (free plug) and figure out how much money you would make using GUARANTEED BASE PAY ONLY !!! Extra pay such as overtime and holiday pay varies and is never guaranteed. I would also suggest initially, using the WORST CASE SCENARIO...ie: lowest payscale, for all companies reviewed because nobody can predict which aircraft upgrades will be available when it's your turn.

Initial Results:

Netjets (Base Acft FO 5 yrs/Base Acft Cpt 11 yrs)
(You may choose your desired schedule at NJA so I use all 3 for comparison)

7/7 Schedule......15 day Flex schedule......18 Day Fixed schedule
(181 days/yr).........(180 days/yr).................(216 days/yr)
Yr 1: $ 56,875............$ 62,563..........................$ 69,188
Yr 2: $ 58,866............$ 64,752..........................$ 71,610
Yr 3: $ 63,738............$ 70,112..........................$ 77,537
Yr 4: $ 65,969............$ 72,566..........................$ 80,251
Yr 5: $ 68,278............$ 75,105..........................$ 83,060 (FO)
Yr 6: $ 103,923...........$ 114,315........................$ 126,422 (CPT)
Yr 7: $ 107,560...........$ 118,316........................$ 130,847
Yr 8: $ 111,324...........$ 122,457........................$ 135,426
Yr 9: $ 115,221...........$ 126,743........................$ 140,166
Yr 10: $ 119,254.........$ 131,179........................$ 145,072
Yr 11: $ 123,427.........$ 135,770........................$ 150,149
Yr 12: $ 127,747.........$ 140,522........................$ 155,405
Yr 13: $ 132,219.........$ 145,440........................$ 160,844
Yr 14: $ 136,846.........$ 150,531........................$ 166,473
Yr 15: $ 136,846.........$ 150,531........................$ 166,473
Yr 16: $ 136,846.........$ 150,531........................$ 166,473
Total: $ 1,664,939....$ 1,831,443.....................$ 2,025,396 [/b] (Guaranteed Career Potential)

Delta (MD88 FO 8 years/MD88 Cpt 8 years using 65 hr guarantee)
Yr 1: $ 42,000 (I am guessing you will be stuck on reserve the 1st yr so I used that for year one - 70 hour guarantee - $39,000 if lineholder @ 65 hrs)
Yr 2: $ 57,960 (lineholder - 65 hr guarantee from this point on)
Yr 3: $ 63,180
Yr 4: $ 64,740
Yr 5: $ 66,300
Yr 6: $ 67,860
Yr 7: $ 70,200
Yr 8: $ 71,760 (FO)
Yr 9: $ 115,080 (CPT) (reserve captain - 70 hr guarantee)
Yr 10: $ 108,420 (Lineholder Captain - assuming said Captain could hold a line in his 2nd year as PIC - 65 hr guarantee)
Yr 11: $ 109,200
Yr 12: $ 110,760
Yr 13: $ 110,760
Yr 14: $ 110,760
Yr 15: $ 110,760
Yr 16: $ 110,760
Total: $ 1,390,500 (Guaranteed Career Potential)

Then I would add in other factors such as Per Diem, How many days worked, whether I had to commute and pay for a crashpad, How many places could I live and still be near a domicile/base without commuting, how much do my benefits (dental/medical/vision) cost me monthly, who pays for my yearly flight physical (company or me), who pays for my uniforms, etc...

You could guess at how much overtime and holiday pay (if offered) and how many extra hours (above guarantee) you could reasonably be expected to work, by asking the folks that actually work at each company. They can generally tell you about current conditions and about how much they make in "extra" income (above base pay) each year. You can, if you choose, apply that amount to the above figures to get a more complete picture. One other consideration; who is more likely to be here in 16 years. I don't know...you don't know...but it's something to consider.

Additionally, holidays, paid days off should be considered.

Final consideration: RETIREMENT PLAN...who offers what and how will that contribute to how long I will have to work prior to retirement ? 401k vs A plan vs B plan etc...

There are alot of variables that go into the numbers but using a conservative approach in the end, will result in more accurate figures. Don't expect to be a 777 Captain at Delta in year 8 or a BBJ Captain at Netjets in your 8th year with the company. In the end, it's not all about the money for many people. Some people want to fly big airplanes and some want to make a fair wage. There are numerous intangibles that each individual will take into account when making these career decisions. Good luck to all regardless of where you end up.

PS: this isn't an endorsement of NJA or Delta...just a basic comparison. Also, if you are currently at a Major/Legacy airline and are a Captain already, or close to upgrade, the numbers would end up differently of course. The above example is scaled to someone deciding on an initial career decision between these two companies. Also, the only major/legacy carrier that pays more than NJA is Southwest Airlines. UPS and FEDEX pay more also (Cargo 121). For comparison: 12 year SWA Captain (using guarantee) makes $185,328, a 12 year UPS captain makes $223,560 and a Fedex 12 year Captain makes $199,800 (widebody). Also, believing that, "major/legacy airline pilots will recoup the salary losses due to 9/11," is a mistake...I would suggest re-looking at the current environment (economy, fuel prices, airlines shutting down) and rethink the assumption that your union(s) will actually get those payrates back anytime in the near future. I wouldn't bet on it.

kman

try 6-9 years for an upgrade, unless there are massive retirements or large a/c order. Looks like its about on par with some of the majors now. Where do u guys get 5 year upgrade from? How many true upgrades this year so far? 20 Maybe?If were lucky we will have 60 true upgrades this year. Upgrades will hit the decade mark soon unless things speed up. I truly hope things dont take that long but with almost 3 years at NJA it will be 5 years at best for me. Good luck.

As far as comparing NJ to DL, You didn't include Greenslip pay ( correct me if Im wrong ) at 200 percent and You will most likely break guarantee as a line holder. My average weekly duty in a 7 day period is 79 hours. We may only fly 19 hours in a tour, but just as much duty time is as a person flying a 90hr line at the airlines. And who cares if u fly 10 hours a tour? IF you have 5 days of 12hr hot standby at the airport ( Like I did last tour ) id rather be flying. Too many of us say we only fly X amount of hours a month. Why dont you guys state how many hours of duty we do in a month? And as far as guar . goes we work on average at least equivalent of a 80-85 hour line at the airlines, so you should include that when factoring in how much we make.

How many bbj s do we have? Anybody hired in the last 7 years will they ever even see the BBJ? At least at the airlines you could possibly be a widebody captain. How many of us will even see the falcon? Not many.

How many 777's, 767, 747 do the airlines have? And how do they staff the widebodys? Last I heard it was about 10.5 or more per plane. NJA staffs at what 6.5? Also guys at delta were getting hired directly into the 75 76 did you figure those numbers in?

Im ranting but it just seems like too many guys try to make it seem like its perfect over here. Let the beating begin.

snakeplt

No Bashing...

YES mileage will vary. I thought I made that clear in the original post.

There are so many variables and so many "unknowns" that I couldn't possibly put them all in one graph...sorry.

As for how much we work per week...that is information that I indicated one must research. I don't agree with your assessment as to how much we DO actually work though, because it really depends on FLEET...as you know.

As for you mentioning BBJ's or FALCONS...I did not use their payscale in the above chart. They are paid considerably more...just like the 777 Captain (compared to the MD88 Cpt). That data was not included in the chart above. The chart above is for aircraft OTHER THAN the Falcon or BBJ. I didn't use Falcon/BBJ data BECAUSE it would be unrealistic for a new-hire to even think he would get in one of those airframes, as a PIC, in under 16 years. So what was your point mentioning the BBJ and Falcon again ?

And you mentioned "staffing" figures...um...so ?

I am familiar with the major airlines as I am furloughed from one (AA) and I will NEVER go back there - yes I have a seniority number and anxiously await the recall so I can tell them to pack sand. If it's so bad here, you can always apply at Delta and hope for the return of the "glory days." Seriously though, I DO miss the pre-9/11 lifestyle and paycheck at AA...but that is now a distant memory.

And finally, this information wasn't meant as a pro-NJA or anti-Delta post. Take the information and apply that information which you are comfortable with. With DELTA cutting their routes, I am not so sure that they will all maintain that 80-85 hour line pay (BUT THEY MIGHT)...I could be wrong. Again, I estimate using conservative figures and GUARANTEED PAY. You see, we are paid a SALARY, not a wage based on FLIGHT HOURS and it is GUARANTEED regardless if you fly/work 0 hours or 100 in a month. You can use whatever figures you like including 777 Captain pay from year 1 to 16...whatever floats your boat. That might be over-doing it a little though don't you think ?

And finally, I have never had a "perfect" job.

Oh, and get that Delta app in...


Bottom line...NJA is not for everyone...but neither are the Major/Legacy airlines anymore...mileage will vary and so will career choices. Good luck everyone.

jtf560

Snakeplt makes an interesting case based on minimums and a good way to think about it based on how long you plan to work. Currently NJA is a good place to make some money. Currently NJA is looking like a secure place to work. NJA and the legacies are such different jobs that the individual choosing where they want their career must do so not just based on pay, but also what they think the job itself will entail during that career. Aviation is a screwy business and things change quickly. NJA is locked into a contract for the next 5 to 8 years not including negotiations. Most of the legacies are coming up for new contracts. Nobody knows how negotiations will go. You will have many contracts during your career wherever you go so it is really impossible to predict how much you will really earn. The cargo carriers are the best paid out their now, but who knows if large cargo aircraft will still have pilots on board in 20 years? No pax to worry about onboard and huge pilot contracts have got to have UPS and Fedex looking closely at the current generation of military drones and wondering how soon they could see that in a much larger configuration. Who even knows for sure they will pass their next medical? NetJets is currently a good job and is now a place that pays around what the legacies are making after their forced cutbacks earlier this decade. I love my job here and don't plan on going anywhere, but this is aviation and I have no clue what I'll really be doing when I planned on retiring. Good luck making the best choice for yourself.

ShortBus_Driver

Thanks for all the wonderful insight and information guys!

__________________
"You can get killed walkin' your doggie!"

Al Pacino - 'HEAT'

TimSmith

Wow...you may be the first unhappy camper I have met here. I hear Mesa is hiring and you can make captain in 6-9 minutes. Seriously though, you may see upgrade at 9 years on an aircraft with an APU, but that is your decision. First available upgrade for a new hire this year will be around 5 years. Why? Our numbers for the past few years show roughly 70+ people leave a year. We are supposed to be taking delivery of 80 something NET increase of aircraft, but due to manufacturer's delays it is probably going to be 40 net increase. The main impediment to upgrades is the PIC merry go-round. Seat locks going to 39 months, this will slow down the merry go-round and open slots for true upgrades. So expansion plus attrition will add up to 180 upgrades needed per year. New hire today has about 1000 numbers ahead of him/her. The most restrictive bottleneck is the training slots and those will open up as the economy slows and the new seat lock takes effect.

Therefore, go have a beer and try to cheer up! Life IS good man!!!