Originally Posted by F224

Having been in two different unions, one a small unaligned association at a regional and later ALPA (over 20 years), and having walked the picket lines in 1998 and was a key member of the Strike Committee I fee I am qualified to comment.

1) Up until ALPA aligned with the AFL-CIO it was the most respected labor group in the world. Any committee member could get an audience with any Congressman/Senator on short notice and labor relations were secondary to flight safety. Also, prior to alignment with the AFL-CIO; the President of ALPA was paid their company wages (IE; if you were a B-727 Captain, what is what you were paid), today, ALPA's President is paid more than $750k per year and most ALPA field office staff (office manager and secretaries) make more than what regional jet captains are paid.

2) ALPA (and the other groups) are very effective at legal defense of pilots in disputes with there companies and the FAA or NTSB.

3) Wages have been declining relative to inflation for ALPA members, but non-ALPA pilots have seen them maintain or increase relative to inflation.

4) From a cost benefit standpoint, many new pilots would be hard pressed to justify economically the cost of dues vs the benefits.

5) Most companies can prevent problems of having a working environment making pilots want to organize into a union by doing a few things; a) treat them as partners in the businesses success, b) pay competitive wages with reasonable benefits, c) provide a legal defense plan for the pilots that covers FAA enforcement actions and d) ensure competitive and affordable long term care and disability plans are available for the staff.

6) Most pilots can ensure they have long and successful careers if they will do a few things like avoiding outside of work legal trouble and always asking themselves if what they are doing at any given moment is in the customers and employers best interest?

This is not an all encompassing list, but covers many of the major issues I have seen in a 30+ year career.

I am not interested in the "Noble Intent" talking point. In realville, where the world actually lives, success has not been based on noble intent, but instead on actual results motivated by vested self interest. Any attempt to try and judge things based on "our good intentions" and not actual results shows a lack of understanding of basic economics and human nature.

Originally Posted by F224

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I am not interested in the "Noble Intent" talking point. In realville, where the world actually lives, success has not been based on noble intent, but instead on actual results motivated by vested self interest. Any attempt to try and judge things based on "our good intentions" and not actual results shows a lack of understanding of basic economics and human nature.

Originally Posted by Ludicrous Speed

In the REAL "realview", intent is not only important, but crucial. Wow! For you to callously disregard the very source of one's motivation is shallow beyond belief.

I'm not sure you understand basic economics or human nature as much as you think you do. If only concerning yourself with superficiality and appearance floats your boat, then you don't have much a foothold in such dialogue.

There are countless great men and women that, had it not been for intent, they would have just been another member of the peanut gallery.....like some here.

Originally Posted by DWS1

Just to be clear, as the originator of this thread, I am not a representative of the Teamsters but rather a line pilot at a Unionized fractional who would like to see the pilot groups of our competitors command what they deserve in compensation, protections and QOL. Fundamentally, we are all part of a collective group who happen to work for the benefit of different organizations. And as it stands, there are many who are selling our collective group short by working sub-standard schedules for sub-standard pay and protection. As I believe it is imperative for the integrity of our group as a whole (and all of our livlihoods for that matter) to have each group raise the bar for the others, I am simply putting a resource out there for the use of those who would be interested in this under-taking. Currently, we have many groups selling the collective leverage of pilots in our industry short by failing to stand up and demand what they deserve for the service they deliver. Anyone in this segment of our industry knows how demanding it can be to successfully operate in the fractional environment. And with the skill and experience that is required should come professional contracts.

Again, this is simply how I see it and I have posted a resource for those looking to rightfully take a stepping stone job and make it the career they deserve.

Originally Posted by ImEbee

I think most of us who responded understood that. The flaw in your argument, so to speak, is that a union will indeed "raise the bar". I can't think of any recent circumstance where a pilot group organized and the result was better compensation and/or work rules. I think the reason most groups have organized recently is because they have seen an erosion of their working environment and see a union as a means of mitigating that. Frankly, I can't think of any recent circumstances where organization of a pilot group has transformed a company from a stepping stone into a career.