Chemtrails or Contrails
08-15-2009, 03:35 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Spartan
Posts: 3,652
Originally Posted by Narbs
Well.... thanks for nothing. I was really hoping to get clear scientific answers to support or discredit what I'm seeing. I guess it's easier to mock and dismiss what you don't understand.
Here you go:
Contrail - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
We do this for a living. We understand just fine, thanks.
08-15-2009, 04:31 AM
#12
Retired
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: whale wrangler
Posts: 3,527
Originally Posted by Narbs
Well.... thanks for nothing. I was really hoping to get clear scientific answers to support or discredit what I'm seeing. I guess it's easier to mock and dismiss what you don't understand.
JAPW
Ally
08-15-2009, 06:20 AM
#13
No one's home
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,091
Originally Posted by Narbs
[
1) the trails seem to form distinctive shapes. Common shapes include "X" shapes, "Z" shapes, "A" shapes and grids. Is this just coincidence even though it shows up all around the world or deliberate?
1) the trails seem to form distinctive shapes. Common shapes include "X" shapes, "Z" shapes, "A" shapes and grids. Is this just coincidence even though it shows up all around the world or deliberate?
2) There is clear evidence that shows periods of the trails to be consistent then a sudden switching off into normal contrails that dissipate within a few seconds from the same aircraft.
3) Clear sign of two planes side by side, one leaving a persistant trails the other a normal contrail that dissipates in seconds.
IF I were going to try to induce chemicals into the culture, I would do it via water.. you know. Screw up their purity of essence.
08-15-2009, 07:18 AM
#14
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Tiki bar
Posts: 2,633
Originally Posted by Narbs
I'm not a conspiracy nut but I thought I'd look into this chemtrail deal to see what it was all about. Upon investigating I found several things that definitely caught my attention. I thought who better to ask than actual pilots as avionics is not even close to my field.
1) the trails seem to form distinctive shapes. Common shapes include "X" shapes, "Z" shapes, "A" shapes and grids. Is this just coincidence even though it shows up all around the world or deliberate? First, we have to look at how planes travel. Here is a 'map' from an instrument chart showing our 'roads in the sky':
Notice that they all converge on a single point and then continue outward. That point is a navigation aid called a VOR. We tune that frequency in and fly a specific course to that VOR, once we cross it, we continue outbound on a specific heading. This happens over and over until we reach our destination. You can see that these paths cross, intersect, join, change headings and you could say that it forms 'shapes' in the sky. This is why you see variations like this when you look up and see contrails from aircraft. Also, wind speed, temperature and humidity can shape these contrails and push them around, cause them to disappear or stay for long periods of time as they are spread out into high level clouds.
2) There is clear evidence that shows periods of the trails to be consistent then a sudden switching off into normal contrails that dissipate within a few seconds from the same aircraft. This is really normal. Flying along at several hundred miles per hour in a very dynamic atmosphere, it is not uncommon to fly through a temperature inversion or an area of lower moisture content, contrails can be sporatic, non-existant or continuous. Various power settings of the engines can lower or increase the temperature of the exhaust depending on if the aircraft is complying with a speed restriction from air traffic control, climbing or descending. This is perfectly normal and fairly common. It is all dependant on the atmospheric conditions that prevail at that time and place as well as the engine power setting.
3) Clear sign of two planes side by side, one leaving a persistant trails the other a normal contrail that dissipates in seconds. Aircraft cannot fly side-by side unless they are fighter jets or military aircraft in a formation. The law all over the world requires 1,000 feet of vertical separation between aircraft flying in opposite directions and 2,000 feet between aircraft flying in the same direction at cruise altitude. When you look up, you could be looking at two aircraft flying in the same direction, but they could be separated by 10,000 feet of altitude or more... it is almost impossible to tell from that vantage point. The temperature and other atmospheric conditions they are experiencing would be totally different. The type of aircraft could also play a huge part in the contrail too. A Boeing 757 flying at 38,000 feet could be producing a contrail that lingers a long time, while a CRJ-200 flying at 32,000 feet may not produce a contrail at all. Since different aircraft have different engines, the temperature and humidity of the exhaust will also be different. There are all things to think about when looking at contrails.
This is the youtube video I looked at. If anyone cares to spend 10 minutes of their lives and watch it, I'd like to get your opinion. YouTube - 3 of 27 Chemtrail film: Don't Talk About the Weather
1) the trails seem to form distinctive shapes. Common shapes include "X" shapes, "Z" shapes, "A" shapes and grids. Is this just coincidence even though it shows up all around the world or deliberate? First, we have to look at how planes travel. Here is a 'map' from an instrument chart showing our 'roads in the sky':
Notice that they all converge on a single point and then continue outward. That point is a navigation aid called a VOR. We tune that frequency in and fly a specific course to that VOR, once we cross it, we continue outbound on a specific heading. This happens over and over until we reach our destination. You can see that these paths cross, intersect, join, change headings and you could say that it forms 'shapes' in the sky. This is why you see variations like this when you look up and see contrails from aircraft. Also, wind speed, temperature and humidity can shape these contrails and push them around, cause them to disappear or stay for long periods of time as they are spread out into high level clouds.
2) There is clear evidence that shows periods of the trails to be consistent then a sudden switching off into normal contrails that dissipate within a few seconds from the same aircraft. This is really normal. Flying along at several hundred miles per hour in a very dynamic atmosphere, it is not uncommon to fly through a temperature inversion or an area of lower moisture content, contrails can be sporatic, non-existant or continuous. Various power settings of the engines can lower or increase the temperature of the exhaust depending on if the aircraft is complying with a speed restriction from air traffic control, climbing or descending. This is perfectly normal and fairly common. It is all dependant on the atmospheric conditions that prevail at that time and place as well as the engine power setting.
3) Clear sign of two planes side by side, one leaving a persistant trails the other a normal contrail that dissipates in seconds. Aircraft cannot fly side-by side unless they are fighter jets or military aircraft in a formation. The law all over the world requires 1,000 feet of vertical separation between aircraft flying in opposite directions and 2,000 feet between aircraft flying in the same direction at cruise altitude. When you look up, you could be looking at two aircraft flying in the same direction, but they could be separated by 10,000 feet of altitude or more... it is almost impossible to tell from that vantage point. The temperature and other atmospheric conditions they are experiencing would be totally different. The type of aircraft could also play a huge part in the contrail too. A Boeing 757 flying at 38,000 feet could be producing a contrail that lingers a long time, while a CRJ-200 flying at 32,000 feet may not produce a contrail at all. Since different aircraft have different engines, the temperature and humidity of the exhaust will also be different. There are all things to think about when looking at contrails.
This is the youtube video I looked at. If anyone cares to spend 10 minutes of their lives and watch it, I'd like to get your opinion. YouTube - 3 of 27 Chemtrail film: Don't Talk About the Weather
Narbs: Sorry if some make fun of the 'chemtrail' subject. You come to us, the experts, with a vaild question. We operate jet aircraft every day and in doing so, we have a detailed knowledge of how they operate, especially the engines. With that knowledge, the prospect of some conspiracy is so outlandish to us, it is funny to think that people actually believe it.
First of all, a jet engine is such a complexly engineered, yet delicate piece of machinery that is still very simple when you break it all down. Lets take a look at a jet engine:
The fan blades you see from the outside of a plane are part of the intake section of the engine, they are powered by the 'turbine' stage of the engine via a shaft, as you can see running down the center of the whole engine in this cross-section. As air enters the engine, series of blades in the 'compression' section squeezes the air very tight, to a high pressure, heating it due to thermodynamics and forcing it aft As the newly compressed air continues rearward, it reaches the combustion stage. This is where atomized Jet fuel is introduced. It is atomized because the spray is very fine to facilitate efficient combustion of the fuel/air mixture. (think mist sprayed out of water spray bottle on a larger scale). As the fuel/air mixture burns, it accelerates significantly, forcing itself against the turbine blades, which spin the shaft and starts the process all over again. The burned fuel/air mixture then exits the rear of the engine in the exhaust stage.
There are scoops in the engine at different places to extract what is called 'bleed air'. This hot air is ducted into the leading edges of the wings and engine cowl to provide anti-ice protection in flight. Bleed air is also used to pressurize the cabin through the PACK (pressurization and air conditioning kit). There are some accessories that are powered off the shaft of the turbine, much the same way your air conditioning pump or alternator is powered by your car engine.
I promise you there is no conspiracy, no device on the engine to spray chemicals, no additive in the fuel to poison people.
I have attempted to answer, fully, the questions you first posted above in bold. I hope this has helped bring more understanding of how it all works and dispels the myth of 'chemtrails'.
08-15-2009, 08:33 AM
#15
With The Resistance
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Burning the Agitprop of the Apparat
Posts: 6,191
For those not familiar with the subject:
Chemtrail conspiracy theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The problem with all conspiracy theories is that any official effort to counter the very wide and non-specific claims of conspiracy serves only to provide "proof" of a government or lizard community coverup.
Conspiracy is a funny thing in that motives(such as they want to control our minds because....) or exact methods are almost never present in the theory, it is much like judging who is a witch by various medieval means.
If you actually think government or the lizard community is trying to control you in some way, you need not look any further than your pay stub to find all the proof you need. They don't want to poison their revenue base and they can't control the weather, and it is well known that people are already quite crazy enough without any mind altering drugs at all.
Throughout history man has manufactured answers to many questions by making various assumptions and then finding ways to prop those assumptions up to fit his view of the world. These manufactured answers are usually wrong and eventually die as facts gradually come to light. There is evil, I feel bad, those jets are run by evil-therefore they are making me feel bad. Simple and wrong.
One of our common faults is our eagerness to credit a group or thing with a very high understanding or power, when in fact they are as confused as the rest of us. There really isn't a magical group with understanding or power beyond that which we give it, and in this respect we are our own worst enemies.
Here is a photo I took a while back. All aircraft in the area were making a contrail like this, normal to start and then forming O's, with an unusual "beer tab" formation on the lower right just in this example. What am I to think of this? Conspiracy or just the whims of atmospheric conditions? I just enjoyed it and have never seen it before or since in nearly a third of a century plying the skies.
OEP, PEO, POE- III Corps has made an important point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1KvgtEnABY
Ripper speaks on Purity of Essence, something we all need to be aware of and act on with the utmost care.
Chemtrail conspiracy theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The problem with all conspiracy theories is that any official effort to counter the very wide and non-specific claims of conspiracy serves only to provide "proof" of a government or lizard community coverup.
Conspiracy is a funny thing in that motives(such as they want to control our minds because....) or exact methods are almost never present in the theory, it is much like judging who is a witch by various medieval means.
If you actually think government or the lizard community is trying to control you in some way, you need not look any further than your pay stub to find all the proof you need. They don't want to poison their revenue base and they can't control the weather, and it is well known that people are already quite crazy enough without any mind altering drugs at all.
Throughout history man has manufactured answers to many questions by making various assumptions and then finding ways to prop those assumptions up to fit his view of the world. These manufactured answers are usually wrong and eventually die as facts gradually come to light. There is evil, I feel bad, those jets are run by evil-therefore they are making me feel bad. Simple and wrong.
One of our common faults is our eagerness to credit a group or thing with a very high understanding or power, when in fact they are as confused as the rest of us. There really isn't a magical group with understanding or power beyond that which we give it, and in this respect we are our own worst enemies.
Here is a photo I took a while back. All aircraft in the area were making a contrail like this, normal to start and then forming O's, with an unusual "beer tab" formation on the lower right just in this example. What am I to think of this? Conspiracy or just the whims of atmospheric conditions? I just enjoyed it and have never seen it before or since in nearly a third of a century plying the skies.
OEP, PEO, POE- III Corps has made an important point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1KvgtEnABY
Ripper speaks on Purity of Essence, something we all need to be aware of and act on with the utmost care.
Last edited by jungle; 08-15-2009 at 11:52 AM.
08-15-2009, 03:21 PM
#17
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,261
Originally Posted by Narbs
Well.... thanks for nothing. I was really hoping to get clear scientific answers to support or discredit what I'm seeing. I guess it's easier to mock and dismiss what you don't understand.
The variable shapes and visibility are caused by different light angles, humidity, engine design, and wing/fuselage aerodynamics.
08-15-2009, 03:35 PM
#18
With The Resistance
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Burning the Agitprop of the Apparat
Posts: 6,191
Narbs, You have to understand why we are saying that this conspiracy theory is mush, most here have extensive real life experience with the things you are concerned about and we have offered you a reasonable explanation, but think a little more on what conspiracies are really about and what they mean as a social, cultural and psychological event.
It is almost always blaming our shortcomings on some mysterious event which gives rise to the belief that some power is taking something from us and we might regain some control by identifying that power and making things right. We love nothing better than the illusion that we can master our fate under all conditions and are loath to admit that we are just along for the ride in many cases.
Many conspiracy theories are generated and carefully nurtured by people who just happen to be generating income from this activity. The media is full of UFO, big foot and other such tales. Why? Because it generates viewers. Read this and take note of the reasoning presented: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory
Ever notice there is never a conspiracy to make us all happy, productive and complete? That just wouldn't sell.
Just don't say I didn't warn you about this one:"Thus, the author who worries about the Secret Service taking orders from the Bavarian Illuminati is old school; the one who worries about a "joint Reptilian-Bavarian Illuminati" takeover is at the cutting edge of the new synthesis. These bizarre notions constitute what the late Michael Kelly termed "fusion paranoia," a promiscuous absorption of fears from any source whatsoever."
It is almost always blaming our shortcomings on some mysterious event which gives rise to the belief that some power is taking something from us and we might regain some control by identifying that power and making things right. We love nothing better than the illusion that we can master our fate under all conditions and are loath to admit that we are just along for the ride in many cases.
Many conspiracy theories are generated and carefully nurtured by people who just happen to be generating income from this activity. The media is full of UFO, big foot and other such tales. Why? Because it generates viewers. Read this and take note of the reasoning presented: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory
Ever notice there is never a conspiracy to make us all happy, productive and complete? That just wouldn't sell.
Just don't say I didn't warn you about this one:"Thus, the author who worries about the Secret Service taking orders from the Bavarian Illuminati is old school; the one who worries about a "joint Reptilian-Bavarian Illuminati" takeover is at the cutting edge of the new synthesis. These bizarre notions constitute what the late Michael Kelly termed "fusion paranoia," a promiscuous absorption of fears from any source whatsoever."
Last edited by jungle; 08-15-2009 at 04:45 PM.
08-15-2009, 04:28 PM
#19
Working Class Dog
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: Spares Pusher
Posts: 1,668
Originally Posted by Narbs
Well.... thanks for nothing. I was really hoping to get clear scientific answers to support or discredit what I'm seeing. I guess it's easier to mock and dismiss what you don't understand.
08-15-2009, 07:47 PM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Position: 757 FO
Posts: 143
CH4 + 2(O2) = CO2 + 2(H2O)
^^^^ = the basic equation for hydrocarbon combustion. Water is a byproduct. It's very cold up high (especially compared to the temperature of the exhaust), so the water either stays a gas, or changes to a liquid or solid.
Of course, the many factors others have mentioned complicate things, but that's the basics.
So if you're looking for a plausible explanation of why there are trails in the first place, there you go. However, I suppose it's possible there could be some non-combustible additive in the jet fuel. That's the only thing I can think of, but I find it highly unlikely.
^^^^ = the basic equation for hydrocarbon combustion. Water is a byproduct. It's very cold up high (especially compared to the temperature of the exhaust), so the water either stays a gas, or changes to a liquid or solid.
Of course, the many factors others have mentioned complicate things, but that's the basics.
So if you're looking for a plausible explanation of why there are trails in the first place, there you go. However, I suppose it's possible there could be some non-combustible additive in the jet fuel. That's the only thing I can think of, but I find it highly unlikely.
