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"While that advice does inflame and threaten others"
Hey, it's the "Thousands of Doctors say they would leave profession if they could" thread. You've done nothing to address the article other than say you read it different than what it says. Seems pretty clear to me what it says. That many folks would leave the medical field if they could figure out how.
If folks want to leave the flying career, more power to them. Best of luck. But touting the medical field as an great way to make 300K and work less than your average pilot is....well...questionable. And I think it's great Herc found this article to give balance to the question of going into the medical profession as an alternative to "leaving the career".
In any case, I hope "the average of 3-4 pm's per day" keep us apprasied on how things go for them as they leave the career. That's really what this forum is all about...
Even just one would be nice.
O.K., I'll roll with ya here-
They sent out 320,000 surveys
12000 responded with 49% (5880) saying they'd leave if they could find an alternative.
If i'm calculating that correctly and rounding properly, I make that about 1.84% negative rating for my new, better profession.
I bet if you polled the airline guys, it'd be considerably more than 1.84% negative.
Concerning the pm's I get and their outcome, i'm offering free advice to those who seek it, if the individuals in question choose to offer their outcomes to the forum here-that's their business and not up to me. I'm in hopes they're massively successful and do share their stories and advice too.
Hows that for addressing this article. And as to your "questionable" comment, pm me for directions and i'll arrange a guided, personal tour.
Comments?
Last edited by TonyMontana : 11-21-2008 at 02:27 AM.
Reason: ...
i dont think you addressed the article at all. as for your statistic of 1.84 percent negative thats crap as well.... whats more telling is that nearly HALF of those who did respond said they would leave.... now thats just as viable a way of looking at those numbers as the way you presented them.
FWIW... i was listening to talk radio yesterday afternoon 870am WWL. And they were talking to several doctors about the medical field. One had gone into research because he felt the liability of OB practice was to great today and the other was speaking about the reality of private practice medicine today and that many doctors are just not prepared for the BUSINESS side of medicine and how much time it takes..AND that he was aware of Doctors who had left active practice because of insurance headaches... both filing for patients and the malpractice side of things.
Listen, I am not bashing the medical profession on any level but the reality is while it may be more financially lucrative, it certainly has its downsides as well. Oh and for a close to home example of someone who left the medical field... my older sister was a Physical Therapist for 15 years. She was a burn specialist and worked in two very large burn centers in this country. AFter 15 years she had seen enough ( and she was VERY well paid, and took a huge paycut to leave PT )....... she got her 2nd masters in Landscape Architecture.... there ya go.
I dont think you addressed the article at all. as for your statistic of 1.84 percent negative thats crap as well.... whats more telling is that nearly HALF of those who did respond said they would leave.... now thats just as viable a way of looking at those numbers as the way you presented them...
Herc is right here. I don't care personally which way this debate goes or have the time to put together a lecture on statistics, but TM's argument here is specious (false). The 1.84% calculation is laughable. Eight thousand samples is more than enough to achieve a high confidence interval about the population. There is a possibility of sample bias altering the results of the survey- this might occur if a subsection of the overall population in question responds to the survey, and it is not a random sample selection. In other words, if 100% of the peed-off doctors took the time to fill out the survey, while only 50% of the happy ones did it, there would be a strong sample bias factor. If you want to shoot down the validity of the survey TM, you need to go that route.
Herc is right here. I don't care personally which way this debate goes or have the time to put together a lecture on statistics, but TM's argument here is specious (false). The 1.84% calculation is laughable. Eight thousand samples is more than enough to achieve a high confidence interval about the population. There is a possibility of sample bias altering the results of the survey- this might occur if a subsection of the overall population in question responds to the survey, and it is not a random sample selection. In other words, if 100% of the peed-off doctors took the time to fill out the survey, while only 50% of the happy ones did it, there would be a strong sample bias factor. If you want to shoot down the validity of the survey TM, you need to go that route.
12,000 out of 320,000, that's worse than an ALPA election-and you're defending that as representative?
i dont think you addressed the article at all. as for your statistic of 1.84 percent negative thats crap as well.... whats more telling is that nearly HALF of those who did respond said they would leave.... now thats just as viable a way of looking at those numbers as the way you presented them.
FWIW... i was listening to talk radio yesterday afternoon 870am WWL. And they were talking to several doctors about the medical field. One had gone into research because he felt the liability of OB practice was to great today and the other was speaking about the reality of private practice medicine today and that many doctors are just not prepared for the BUSINESS side of medicine and how much time it takes..AND that he was aware of Doctors who had left active practice because of insurance headaches... both filing for patients and the malpractice side of things.
Listen, I am not bashing the medical profession on any level but the reality is while it may be more financially lucrative, it certainly has its downsides as well. Oh and for a close to home example of someone who left the medical field... my older sister was a Physical Therapist for 15 years. She was a burn specialist and worked in two very large burn centers in this country. AFter 15 years she had seen enough ( and she was VERY well paid, and took a huge paycut to leave PT )....... she got her 2nd masters in Landscape Architecture.... there ya go.
That's true herc, OB's are THE most sued MD's-period. Lots can go wrong very quickly during deliveries. PT is a tough field and I would imagine working around burned people all day would get depressing.
12,000 out of 320,000, that's worse than an ALPA election-and you're defending that as representative?
You guys are too funny.
Absolutely, and I even gave you a direction to hunt if you want to try and poke holes in the survey. Come on, I thought you were trained in science. I took three years of chemistry sitting next to a bunch of premeds before I switched to aerospace. The third or fourth course in the curriculum was statistical methods.
You can't assume even by a stretch of statistical methods that since only 4% of the population responded, then the other 96% votes yay on the question. In fact, it much more is likely they are about 50/50 as the survey says. If you want to poke holes in it then you are going to have to argue that the sample is biased somehow. You aren't even trying at this point.
Absolutely, and I even gave you a direction to hunt if you want to try and poke holes in the survey. Come on, I thought you were trained in science. I took three years of chemistry sitting next to a bunch of premeds before I switched to aerospace. The third or fourth course in the curriculum was statistical methods.
You can't assume even by a stretch of statistical methods that since only 4% of the population responded, then the other 96% votes yay on the question. In fact, it much more is likely they are about 50/50 as the survey says. If you want to poke holes in it then you are going to have to argue that the sample is biased somehow. You aren't even trying at this point.
Here's a statistic for you to chew on-i'm making about 9 times what I did as a SAAB Capt., so at that-I think i'll stay in.and I didn't recieve a survey.
Just to clarify I was writing about my expectations of the future. However I do think that airline pilots today are little more than programmable humans who conduct a flight by following a highly scripted and choreographed series of rote memorized procedures and actions. They are manual driven flow chart following automatons who carry out the direction and decisions of others. Dispatch, maintenance control, Boeing engineers and ATC run the show. The pilots are spring loaded to react to situations in a pre-determined manner and if they run off the script will contact others for further direction. The mantra is "Do not think just do". Follow the procedure. Thinking gets pilots into trouble. My concept is that a computer could do the same thing and that automation is already making it easier for engineers and others to get their hands on the electronic yoke. The only thing missing is a direct link. Pilots could still be there as an on site overseer of the flight but the plane would be largely controlled by others on the ground.
Sky, pray tell, how would you describe a doctor's job? Because I could describe a what doctors do JUST as you have done above. A large portion of what a doc does is rote memorization. He has seen this disease SO MANY times before that he scarcely has to think about what medication to give you. The thousands of tests he ordered last time you went to see him- mostly unnecessary. It's called "defensive medicine". He knows what the results will say, but her orders the tests on the 0.001% chance that something really is wrong with you, and that he'll be sued. He's just covering his ass.
Remember when you last visited the doctor with a problem, and you left amazed that he knew EXACTLY the right medication for you, and were all better in a few days? Sorry to bust your bubble, but there's NO magic in that. I spent some time with a doctor the other day. Eight in ten patients were given the SAME medication for different problems. The truth is that docs have their favorite meds, and they use them when possible. Let me paraphrase what one doc told me; "90% of patients will get better with or without a doctor. The body can heal itself. We prescribe meds mostly to eliminate the symptoms. The body cures the source of the problem. As a matter of fact, most of the symptoms (runny nose, cough, etc) indicate that the body is fixing the problem".
Docs don't just make up treatments as they go along. During their training, they are exposed to a specific range of illnesses, and each is treated with its own protocol. Follow the steps and the patient should get better. Sound familiar? Docs call them "treatment protocols" (or something like that); pilots have words for things like that too...we call them flows and checklists. Just because he isn't reading from a bit of paper doesn't mean your doc isn't following the checklist. After a few years on an airplane, you can recite the checklists in your sleep, can't you?
Flying is pretty similar to medicine. Most days will be more of the same. However, occasionally, a curve ball comes. As a pilot, it comes in the form of an abnormal. As a doctor, it comes in the form of a patient with a rare disease. You call on your training to deal with the problem, and hope for the best outcome.
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Intentionally Left Blank
Last edited by Senior Skipper : 11-22-2008 at 12:29 AM.
Sky, pray tell, how would you describe a doctor's job? Because I could describe a what doctors do JUST as you have done above. A large portion of what a doc does is rote memorization. He has seen this disease SO MANY times before that he scarcely has to think about what medication to give you. The thousands of tests he ordered last time you went to see him- mostly unnecessary. It's called "defensive medicine". He knows what the results will say, but her orders the tests on the 0.001% chance that something really is wrong with you, and that he'll be sued. He's just covering his ass.
Remember when you last visited the doctor with a problem, and you left amazed that he knew EXACTLY the right medication for you, and were all better in a few days? Sorry to bust your bubble, but there's NO magic in that. I spent some time with a doctor the other day. Eight in ten patients were given the SAME medication for different problems. The truth is that docs have their favorite meds, and they use them when possible. Let me paraphrase what one doc told me; "90% of patients will get better with or without a doctor. The body can heal itself. We prescribe meds mostly to eliminate the symptoms. The body cures the source of the problem. As a matter of fact, most of the symptoms (runny nose, cough, etc) indicate that the body is fixing the problem".
Docs don't just make up treatments as they go along. During their training, they are exposed to a specific range of illnesses, and each is treated with its own protocol. Follow the steps and the patient should get better. Sound familiar? Docs call them "treatment protocols" (or something like that); pilots have words for things like that too...we call them flows and checklists. Just because he isn't reading from a bit of paper doesn't mean your doc isn't following the checklist. After a few years on an airplane, you can recite the checklists in your sleep, can't you?
Flying is pretty similar to medicine. Most days will be more of the same. However, occasionally, a curve ball comes. As a pilot, it comes in the form of an abnormal. As a doctor, it comes in the form of a patient with a rare disease. You call on your training to deal with the problem, and hope for the best outcome.
I think that you are reaching more than just a bit with this one. I mean sure we do have WebMD and some surgeries are preformed with robotics but there is not even a shred of what I am getting at in regards to automation in aviation. Just to start with pilots are dealing with a machine. In the past pilots were trained to have a deep understanding of aircraft systems so that they could use that knowledge to think their way out of problems. Modern planes are so complex that they do not even try to do that anymore. Just follow the procedures and if you get into trouble call maintenance control.
I can understand the desire to self glorify the job but there are no grounds at all for what you are suggesting. Many jobs use procedures to react to certain situations: police, fire,and perhaps medicine. Aviation is much different. We already have the technology to program a plane and have it fly across the country and land itself. We also can remotely fly a plane with military success from the back side of the globe. However we still are not even close to reaching a point where we have remotely controlled cars.
Everyday technology is gradually moving the pilots hands off the controls and procedures are transforming what a pilot does into more of what a computer does. When compared to what a DC-3 crew did just 40 years ago we already have computer flown machines. Doctors have better equipment but they still do the same job as they have. The majority of accidents are pilot error. Eventually the push will be to remove the middleman.
Skyhigh
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Pilots are paid for what they will do, not for what they can do.
Here's a statistic for you to chew on-i'm making about 9 times what I did as a SAAB Capt., so at that-I think i'll stay in.and I didn't recieve a survey.
(i can show my work for those interested)
What did you make as a SAAB captain?
I'm guessing around $30K, which, according to the information you provided, you would now be earning close to $300K/yr. Good on ya.
I have always said that one is worth what they negotiate, or in the case of non-union, making what you are worth. There is no doubt that physicians provide a great service with the skills they have. Pilots also provide a great service as well - how do you transport a life-saving organ from one side of the country to the other in record time in order to save someone's life? Once it arrives, who possesses the skills necessary to perform the life-saving operation?
My point? Who cares whose job is more important. Both services are needed and people choose one path over another based on their own personal evaluation of themselves, their current circumstances, and future goals.
Would I advise someone to choose aviation as a career? Yes. Would I also advise that same person to diversify their education so as to not place all of their eggs in one basket? Yes, absolutely.
Aviation has been and continues to be very good to me. But I never take for granted that this blessing will always be the case. Whatever you choose to do in life, definitely have a plan B.
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