To all the USAirways sorry for bad intergration and I wish I could say do not worry things will get easier...but the fact of the matter this is just the beginning of some very stressful times.
Good luck to you and your families.
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To all the USAirways sorry for bad intergration and I wish I could say do not worry things will get easier...but the fact of the matter this is just the beginning of some very stressful times.
Good luck to you and your families.
Apparently you hate all unions..........as previous posts show no love loss for the APA either.
ALPA (as a single entity) had nothing to do with this merger integration.................
The AWA MEC had it's own merger committee.
The AAA MEC had it's own merger committee.
Both sides pleaded their case to the Neutral Arbitrator.
Apparently the AWA MEC did a better job or hired a better merger attorney. I can't fathom how someone with a 1988 Date of hire and 13 years active service could be junior to someone hired in 2004.
Apparently you hate all unions..........as previous posts show no love loss for the APA either.
ALPA (as a single entity) had nothing to do with this merger integration.................
The AWA MEC had it's own merger committee.
The AAA MEC had it's own merger committee.
Both sides pleaded their case to the Neutral Arbitrator.
Apparently the AWA MEC did a better job or hired a better merger attorney. I can't fathom how someone with a 1988 Date of hire and 13 years active service could be junior to someone hired in 2004.
But I don't have a dog in this fight.
I agree. I don't think this will stick though. Look for lawsuits and amendment to this resolution. If any furloughed pilot has a hair on his ass, he'd be talking to the CAL strikers who were similarly screwed by the company, union and capitulators. They found recompense through Phoenix Group litigation. Similar situation with NYair/People Express. I don't have animosity for either group, but I flew with AAA captains when AW guys I know, now senior to them, were CFI's. That just won't float and I'll gladly contribute to rectify this BS. I'm very upset by this "resolution", but hold no ill feelings toward the West guys or the AAA furloughees. It sets a bad precedent for all of us as a whole. At the 16+ year point in your career, you shouldn't have to pull gear for a guy who was learning turns-about-a-point while you were flying the line. If we let airlines pay a guy with thousands of hours heavy PIC the same, or less in this case, as a guy with 100 sic in an RJ, what kind of message are we sending? My check is written, just let me know where to send it.
Apparently you hate all unions..........as previous posts show no love loss for the APA either.
ALPA (as a single entity) had nothing to do with this merger integration.................
The AWA MEC had it's own merger committee.
The AAA MEC had it's own merger committee.
Both sides pleaded their case to the Neutral Arbitrator.
Apparently the AWA MEC did a better job or hired a better merger attorney. I can't fathom how someone with a 1988 Date of hire and 13 years active service could be junior to someone hired in 2004.
But I don't have a dog in this fight.
Redeye, do I hate unions? The answer is no....I have been a dues paying member because a union is nothing without UNITY!
The problem I have with ALPA is it is an association not a union and has turned the pilot group into "it is all about me" group. How can ALPA call itself a union when one side of the membership in the right seat is getting paid $19,000 second year pay and living on food stamps and another side getting paid $100,000 second year pay.
Now throw in the current merger topic. This out come does not appear to favor AAA at all. What is the logic....."you where acquired not hired" or "lucky you have job".
You are correct....this is not our fight however just my display of lack of confidence towards ALPA.
ps. Next time you are talking to a line worker or heavy equipement operator....ask them if there is such a big split in pay in their "union" membership.
I agree. I don't think this will stick though. Look for lawsuits and amendment to this resolution. If any furloughed pilot has a hair on his ass, he'd be talking to the CAL strikers who were similarly screwed by the company, union and capitulators. They found recompense through Phoenix Group litigation. Similar situation with NYair/People Express. I don't have animosity for either group, but I flew with AAA captains when AW guys I know, now senior to them, were CFI's. That just won't float and I'll gladly contribute to rectify this BS. I'm very upset by this "resolution", but hold no ill feelings toward the West guys or the AAA furloughees. It sets a bad precedent for all of us as a whole. At the 16+ year point in your career, you shouldn't have to pull gear for a guy who was learning turns-about-a-point while you were flying the line. If we let airlines pay a guy with thousands of hours heavy PIC the same, or less in this case, as a guy with 100 sic in an RJ, what kind of message are we sending? My check is written, just let me know where to send it.
I don't have a dog in this fight either, but definitely agree with you. This sets a bad precedent, especially considering there will more than likely be more mergers, sooner or later, if nothing else when the next down turn in the industry happens. And, the way that I read things, could be wrong, but the AAA proposal was not really DOH, but was based on the 'length of service/longevity' that each indvidual put into their respective carrier. It seems to me that if you had 7, 10, 15 yrs of longevity/years of service, even if furloughed; you contributed a great deal to building what a carrier has, and should benefit upon return. You think???
Apparently all of the furloughees essentially had their seniority 'reset to Zero' meaning whatever time they had put in, meant Nothing.
As I said, dangerous precedent, especially if the industry takes a downturn and mergers happen. For what its worth??
As a side note, there have been worse Merged lists. When Delta bought some of Pan Am's routes some PA pilots went with the deal. They were placed on the bottom AND were feathered in with as yet to be hired new hires! Can you imagine? The list went something like this:
That statement about moving on from AWA was only true over 5 years ago, not much attrition in recent times ...
But some little event in 2001 changed the landscape of the industry, don't you think ?
Later, CC
P.S. Just thankful that whole mess is in my rear view mirror !!!
CC,
9-11 did change things for AW pilots and anyone who kept their job afterwards. It does seem however that every other week I am flying with someone who used to be at AW, United, USAir, CAL, etc. Half came to SWA after 9-11. My how things have changed since the mid-to-late 90's when we were losing people to UA only to be furloughed. We even had a few leave here after upgrade to go back to USAir only to find themselves furloughed again and now are stapled to the bottom of the new seniority list. I think the statement "life is not fair" that is being tossed around on this thread is pretty accurate. I would however throw in poor decision making and bad luck as well.
I remember asking a USAir Captain for a jumpseat home one night in 1990. He noticed that I worked for SWA and said "Southwest eh? You know we should buy you guys". He then said "I think it would be a good fit, don't you?" I just smiled and thanked him for the ride and thought to myself as I went to sit down in the back "Oh please don't buy us, Oh please don't buy us!" Sometimes as many of us have said in the past it is better to be lucky than good! I have yet to see a seniority merger go well. Anyone know of one? I could be wrong.
Oh and don't think I don't know things could change for SWA a few years from now. My how things do change.
__________________
Stuck in the 737 forever. Woe is me.
Last edited by OscartheGrouch; 05-06-2007 at 03:38 PM.
From first hand perspective, the attrition at AWA slowed to a trickle post-9/11. Off the top of my head ... approx 10 a month to just a few.
From YOUR perspective ... you see folks from everywhere else coming to SWA, because it certainly is one of the best places right now. And you certainly understand the RIGHT NOW part of that statement. Up until recently, where would someone from AWA, CAL, etc head besides SWA, FedEx, and UPS ? Know what I mean ...
My earlier comment was meant to be a wake up call to Hot Mama ...
Her statement about AWA was certainly true prior to 2001 ... no questions asked.
BUT the same statement could be made about her Brown roots prior to 1995 (it certainly was not a bed of roses in its early years) ... I have flown with folks that left UPS for greener pastures, so they thought. Only one of whom would admit the folly of his ways ! HE WISHES HE WERE HERE WITH ME NOW !
But this industry marches on ! Just ask a former PanAm, Eastern, Braniff, TWA, ... pilot !
To me it seems that the biggest hard on the East guys have is having their longevity disgregarded. But if you look at the award then you will see that a Captain is a Captain and an F/O remains an F/O. That is the essence of ALPA merger policy. No one has had a windfall, relative seniority has been maintained.
The longevity issue can be seen like this: Us Air was a stagnant airline that had made little or no money in the last 20 years. They screwed up the merger with Piedmont and PSA, were raped by Wolf and Gangwall and yet made it to the top tier in wages before the 9/11 collapse of the industry.
AWA on the otherhand had aircraft deliveries coming, had no furloughees, had made money after 2002 and upgrades were 5 years. Nothing like SWA, but we were doing very well, particularly after Parker changed the fare structure and we started to run a tight ship operationally.
Look at us 2 years later. Stagnant growth on the West side (where we had been steadily making money), operationally we have plunged back into the bottom tier with on time going to hell and bags disappearing every time they touch PHL. Look where operational errors are taking place - runway incursions, planes departing short of fuel, mental mistakes that we almost never had out West. No suprise there, stress and uncertainty can cause the best pilot to make errors. We have been lucky in the West, we have not had the anxiety that the East pilots have had but I believe that the root cause is that the East pilots have had the blinders on for a long time.
The East had unreasonable expectations about this merger. They disregarded the fact that it was an aquisition, a buyout that preserved jobs that were going away in a matter of weeks. AWA made the last payroll for US Airways before the merger, that's how close it came. Parker for whatever reason did not come clean with the East employee groups after the merger (possibly because he was afraid of alienating them - oops, too late now). The same arrogance that blocked the merger with United has now led to wailing and gnashing of teeth. It was not the West that was intrasigent in negotiating the seniority list, it was not the West that refused to listen to the arbitrator when it came time to settle the list. He gave many hints as to what he would rule on. He told them point blank to move off their DOH stance - the East refused and now the list is what it is. The fact that US Air had 17 year F/Os only proves one thing - that UsAir was not a growing operation. No F/O should displace a Captain during a merger and certainly no furloughed pilot could expect to come in on top of an active pilot.
AWA had never been a top tier airline here in the States. SWA, UAL, Delta, NWA, FEDEX and UPS have been and will always be bigger and better as far as pay, equipment and scale of operations. But we had a really good little thing going out West and I'm angry that it will be ****ed away by people who don't care about those of us that have put a lot of effort into making this place a fun place to work. We are going to see more confict than is necessary. Instead of dwelling on how bad you think you got screwed try being grateful that you are employed, are keeping your position and relative seniority and that the airline would be growing again if everyone stopped whining and started working together. We need to focus on a new joint contract and get this over with so we can start moving torward an industry standard contract.
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