Go Back  Airline Pilot Central Forums > Airline Pilot Forums > Major
NTSB says pilots used flawed technique to land plane >

NTSB says pilots used flawed technique to land plane

Notices
Major Legacy, National, and LCC

NTSB says pilots used flawed technique to land plane

Old 01-27-2006, 07:09 PM
  #1  
Line Holder
Thread Starter
 
Fly4Beer's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: A320/FO
Posts: 65
Default NTSB says pilots used flawed technique to land plane

NTSB says pilots used flawed technique to land plane

CHICAGO - Pilots of a Southwest Airlines jet that skidded off a runway at Midway International Airport relied on a flawed landing technique that federal aviation authorities should ban, investigators said Friday.
The Dec. 8 accident killed a 6-year-old boy inside a car crushed by the plane when it skidded off a snowy 6,500-foot runway, crashed through a fence at the Chicago airport and plowed into the street.
The National Transportation Safety Board Friday said the pilots should not have factored the plane's thrust reversers - which help slow the plane - when they calculated how long it would take the plane to stop.
The airplane touched down with about 4,500 feet of runway remaining, but snowy conditions and other factors meant the plane needed about 5,300 feet of runway to stop, the NTSB said in a preliminary report last month.
According to flight recorder data, the thrust reversers did not deploy until
18 seconds after landing, Friday's report said.
The NTSB is trying to determine what steps the pilots could have taken to avoid the accident, said agency spokesman Keith Holloway. Friday's report recommends that the Federal Aviation Administration prohibit planes from using thrust reversers in such landings.
The NTSB has previously said the jet's actual stopping distance was about 5,000 feet. It said a tail wind contributed to the accident because it caused the plane to land faster than normal.
Southwest is based in Dallas.

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssen...l/13729130.htm
Fly4Beer is offline  
Old 01-27-2006, 08:04 PM
  #2  
APC co-founder
 
HSLD's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Feb 2005
Position: B777
Posts: 5,853
Default

What you posted was what the media says the NTSB said. As you know they [media] seldom get it right.

Here is what the NTSB actually said:

Therefore, the Board is recommending that the FAA:

Immediately prohibit all 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 121 operators from using the reverse thrust credit in landing performance calculations. (A-06-16) (Urgent)

A copy of the recommendation letter may be found at the following link on the Board's website: http://www.ntsb.gov/recs/letters/2006/a06_16.pdf
HSLD is offline  
Old 01-27-2006, 08:44 PM
  #3  
Line Holder
Thread Starter
 
Fly4Beer's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: A320/FO
Posts: 65
Default The whole story

NTSB: Prohibit A/Ls From Using TR Credit In Determining Runway Stopping Distance

(Safety Recommendation A-06-16)
The NTSB has urged the FAA to prohibit airlines from using credit for the use of thrust reversers when calculating stopping distances on contaminated runways.

The urgent safety recommendation is the result of information learned by the NTSB during its investigation into a fatal runway overrun in Chicago last month.

"We believe this recommendation needs the immediate attention of the FAA since we will be experiencing winter weather conditions in many areas of our nation for several more months to come," NTSB Acting Chairman Mark V.
Rosenker (below, right) said.

On December 8, 2005, Southwest Airlines flight 1248, a Boeing 737-7H4, landed on runway 31C at Chicago Midway Airport during a snow storm. The aircraft failed to stop on the runway, rolling through a blast fence and perimeter fence and coming to rest on a roadway after striking two vehicles.
A 6-year-old boy in one of the automobiles was killed.

While approaching Chicago on a flight from Baltimore, the pilots used an on-board laptop performance computer (OPC) to calculate expected landing performance.

Information entered into the computer included expected landing runway, wind speed and direction, airplane gross weight at touchdown, and reported runway braking action.
The OPC then calculated the stopping margin. Depending on whether WET-FAIR or WET-POOR conditions were input, the computer calculated remaining runway after stopping at either 560 feet or 30 feet.

Both calculations were based on taking a stopping credit assuming engine thrust reverser deployment at touchdown. Flight data recorder information revealed that the thrust reversers were not deployed until 18 seconds after touchdown, at which point there was only about 1,000 feet of usable runway remaining.

The FAA does not allow the use of the reverse thrust credit when determining dispatch landing distances; in fact, historically decreases in stopping distances due to thrust reverser deployment were used to offset other variables that could significantly degrade stopping performance. However, the FAA does permit thrust reverser credit for calculating en-route operational landing distances for some transport category aircraft, like the 737-700 series, but not for others, like the 737-300.

If the thrust reverser credit had not been allowed in calculating the stopping distance for flight 1248, the OPC would have indicated that a safe landing on runway 31C was not possible. "As a result," the Board said in its recommendation letter, "a single event, the delayed deployment of the thrust reversers, can lead to an unsafe condition, as it did in this accident."

Although the recommendation would prohibit the thrust reverser credit on all runways, its practical effect would be felt on planned landings only on contaminated runways, which is when the credit is included in stopping distance calculations.

Therefore, the Board is recommending that the FAA:

Immediately prohibit all 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 121 operators from using the reverse thrust credit in landing performance calculations.
(A-06-16)
(Urgent)
FMI: www.ntsb.gov/recs/letters/2006/a06_16.pdf
aero-news.net
Fly4Beer is offline  
Old 01-29-2006, 10:40 PM
  #4  
Freightmama!
 
Freightpuppy's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 2,880
Default

Of course every accident is always attributed to some kind of pilot error. What a load of crap!
Freightpuppy is offline  
Old 01-30-2006, 06:28 AM
  #5  
Gets Weekends Off
 
RedeyeAV8r's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,838
Default Question for Southwest Pilots

[/QUOTE]
The FAA does not allow the use of the reverse thrust credit when determining dispatch landing distances; in fact, historically decreases in stopping distances due to thrust reverser deployment were used to offset other variables that could significantly degrade stopping performance. However, the FAA does permit thrust reverser credit for calculating en-route operational landing distances for some transport category aircraft, like the 737-700 series, but not for others, like the 737-300.

[/QUOTE]

We all know the inaccuracies of the press after an aircraft mishap.

I was reading a story (about the Midway mishap) in the USA Today a couple days ago. There was a short Blurb about SWAPA advising its pilots to
"Trick" the software in the Performance Laptop in order not to allow input of Reversers for calaculated landing Data.


at Fedex, we all use a Laptop in to calculate our preformance data. We cannot trick our system............There is a default "1 Thrust Reverser inop" but it does not change the landing Data. With our system Reversers are never used to calculate abort stop margins or Landing distances.
................The only way to trick the system is to enter in "Runway Contamination" data........which will give a longer landing roll or lengthen abort stopping distances.....................That won't help if the runway is truly contaminated.

My question to an SWA Pilot is there a way for you guys to "Trick" the system or was the news paper article Bogus as usual?
RedeyeAV8r is offline  
Old 01-30-2006, 07:55 AM
  #6  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Punkpilot48's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Jungle Jet
Posts: 364
Default

Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r

at Fedex, we all use a Laptop in to calculate our preformance data. We cannot trick our system............
Is it an actual laptop or just jargon for one of the systems? Forgive the ignorance but everything is more advance than the good ole seneca 1.
Punkpilot48 is offline  
Old 01-30-2006, 08:36 AM
  #7  
Gets Weekends Off
 
ERJ135's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: CR7 Capt
Posts: 1,621
Default

[QUOTE=Punkpilot48 Forgive the ignorance but everything is more advance than the good ole seneca 1.[/QUOTE]


You got that right!! I fly and teach in the Seneca 1
ERJ135 is offline  
Old 01-30-2006, 11:11 AM
  #8  
Gets Weekends Off
 
RedeyeAV8r's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,838
Default Performance calculations..........? to Southwest Pilots

Originally Posted by Punkpilot48
Is it an actual laptop or just jargon for one of the systems? Forgive the ignorance but everything is more advance than the good ole seneca 1.

We use an actual laptop computer...........In the B727, DC10 and A300 It is a small Lap top called the APLC.........

In the M)D-11 we use an Compaq Presario which will eventally be tied into a data link communications system. We will eventually use it to access comapny manuals, FOM, MELs CDLs and Aircraft Manuals.

Currently we only use them for perfomance calculations.
Each computer has all the performance data for all Fedex aircraft and all cities we fly to..... In other words I can use any computer for any aircraft and get Take/Landing Data for any runway at any airport in the world. (the ones we fly to) It is more accurate than the Tables in the aircraft manuals.........and much easier to use.
RedeyeAV8r is offline  
Old 01-30-2006, 11:23 AM
  #9  
APC co-founder
 
HSLD's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Feb 2005
Position: B777
Posts: 5,853
Default

Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r
Tables in the aircraft manuals.........and much easier to use.
Slight thread drift, but does FedEx use max aircraft weight for TO/landing or runway length/runway remaining for performance?
HSLD is offline  
Old 01-30-2006, 11:36 AM
  #10  
Gets Weekends Off
 
RedeyeAV8r's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,838
Default

Originally Posted by HSLD
Slight thread drift, but does FedEx use max aircraft weight for TO/landing or runway length/runway remaining for performance?
It uses Runway length but has a default to MAX a/c weight if that is required for T/O.
RedeyeAV8r is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
nw320driver
Foreign
35
10-15-2010 07:41 PM
nw320driver
Major
15
11-17-2006 07:45 AM
flystraightin
Major
4
05-31-2006 06:31 AM
HSLD
Flight Schools and Training
2
05-14-2006 09:07 AM
RockBottom
Major
0
04-29-2005 07:26 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Your Privacy Choices