That's funny, I'm not trying to flame you brother, but have you done any kind of research about the way the operation runs at Southwest? Strickly as a jumpseater you can see the difference in the operations between the two companies:
SWA - Gate agents happy to be there, and willing to help you at any hub or station.
CAL - Been to EWR lately? You couldn't get a smile out those people if you had a gun to their heads, and as soon as you approach the counter for a jumpseat request, you automatically become a second class citizen.
Often true, and as a CAL line pilot I apologize. I know this is a problem.
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SWA - Incredibly efficient, will turn an aircraft in 20-25 minutes.
CAL - I've seen them take an hour at IAH turning a 735.
SWA does it better than anyone, but it is a different operation. Stuff like connecting baggage, assigned two class seating, and catered meals get in the way of SWA like turns. I have (admittedly rarely) turned a 735 in about the same time at an out station.
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SWA - Employee moral at SWA is always incredibly high, and they're always happy to see you.
CAL - Is always hit or miss, I've had guys that were really cool about guys asking for the jumpseat, and guys that had a huge bug up their ***.
Don't get wrong, I think CAL is a fine company, but as far as the operation, there is simply no question that SWA runs a great operation, which is a direct byproduct of employees that really care about their company, and a culture that stands out in the industry. If you believe that fuel hedging is the only reason why Southwest continues to be profitable, then I suggest you take a closer look at their business model, and at the hands that make it happen every day.
While I agree about the importance of taking care of employees and as a result, subsequently customers, you still have to make money. Unless I'm misreading the respective companies second quarter results, without hedges SWA would have lost significantly more on operations than CAL. Don't get me wrong, I'm a SWA admirer, not a hater. I think SWA is as sure a thing as there is if you're going to haul passengers, but when making a career decision, one should take in as much data as possible, make a decision, and not look back, because none of us knows what the future holds. I think the potential at CAL is greater, as well as the risk.
Have you heard of anyone from Southwest leaving and going to Continental?
A good point, but prior to 9/11, I don't know anyone who had a choice between SWA, a box hauler, and a legacy who didn't go to the legacy. Wasatch says it very well when he talks about the fickle nature of the industry. SWA has a tremendous history of profitability and the best finances in the industry. However, I don't think their business model is immune from problems. IMO, UPS and FedEx are sure things, unfortunately they're not hiring. Do I think Southwest's the safe bet? Yes. Do I think they're the company to go with? We'll know at retirement.
A good point, but prior to 9/11, I don't know anyone who had a choice between SWA, a box hauler, and a legacy who didn't go to the legacy. Wasatch says it very well when he talks about the fickle nature of the industry. SWA has a tremendous history of profitability and the best finances in the industry. However, I don't think their business model is immune from problems. IMO, UPS and FedEx are sure things, unfortunately they're not hiring. Do I think Southwest's the safe bet? Yes. Do I think they're the company to go with? We'll know at retirement.
Actually, I am one of them who declined legacy. See my post above
where I recommend Flybynuts go to SWA. Also, I literally know dozens who went cargo or SWA over class dates with AMR/UAL/DAL/NWA pre 9-11. Many in the 90's did have choices in the early and later parts. Not furloughed, just military or regional looking for a good career with a consistent, profitable operation. Admittedly, the majority of pilots look at it from a different angle.
XHooker - I know a lot of military guys who chose SWA first over legacies and boxhaulers, but maybe it isn't the same where you are/were. What's your aviation background?
Congratulations on being in such an enviable position at such at crappy time in airline history. Having faced the sting of being furloughed twice, I would have to go with SWA for the job stability in the "forseeable" future. While you may be damned to only one a/c type and domestic only (for now) operations, you will be at a truly special place in aviation. One of the last places in this business where management will take a paycut, rather than passing it to its employees and taking a 23 million bonus instead. Sadly, this used to be commonplace but now SWA is the last bastion of old airline management that actually seems to enjoy running an airline.
They're are many great people at CAL, too ("Did you know that we were one of Fortune Magazine's 500 best places to work?"), but management at SWA can't be beat.
Congratulations with your enviable choice between the most successful major and the "new" major. Good Luck!
Actually, I am one of them who declined legacy. See my post above
where I recommend Flybynuts go to SWA. Also, I literally know dozens who went cargo or SWA over class dates with AMR/UAL/DAL/NWA pre 9-11. Many in the 90's did have choices in the early and later parts. Not furloughed, just military or regional looking for a good career with a consistent, profitable operation. Admittedly, the majority of pilots look at it from a different angle.
Salty, I didn't know how long you've been at UPS. Since you were hired there prior to 9/11, I congratulate you on your foresight in going freight, but I knew many who had the choice and none took your path. Even know a couple who left FedEx to go fly pax. Two guys I knew back in '90 were disappointed when they had to go to FedEx and UPS respectively. Guess they'll have the last laugh.
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Originally Posted by LuvJockey
XHooker - I know a lot of military guys who chose SWA first over legacies and boxhaulers, but maybe it isn't the same where you are/were. What's your aviation background?
Like I said above, I didn't know any who passed on a legacy for freight or SWA. Of the guys I knew who were furloughed in the 90s by AAL or DAL and picked up by UPS or SWA, most of the guys who went UPS went back to their passenger carriers, while none of the the guys who went to SWA went back (maybe SWA required you to resign your seniority number before hiring you). That doesn't change today's reality where I'd place cargo at the top of my wish list and probably would put SWA at the top of the pax based on stability (Of course since they're the only ones hiring, they look even better). However, as Wasatch Phantom says, change is constant in this industry. As far as my background: Navy to CAL.
I meet a lot of guys at FDX who could have gone to DAL, CAL, AA, or UAL back in the day.. I always ask why they didnt'. Usually it was a recognitition of the stability of the business, the much higher % of widebodys on the property, or some encouragement from friends already at the company.
I got lucky, pure and simple... I always admire the foresight (and luck) of some of those guys. Several guys I know were F-lo'd by Delta in the early 90s and chose not to return when recalled. I imagine there were about 5 years they looked over there shoulder going "what if?" Probably not the case now...
Position: Mostly Herks. Soon to be Guppys and FRED
Posts: 207
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Originally Posted by Albief15
I meet a lot of guys at FDX who could have gone to DAL, CAL, AA, or UAL back in the day.. I always ask why they didnt'. Usually it was a recognitition of the stability of the business, the much higher % of widebodys on the property, or some encouragement from friends already at the company.
I got lucky, pure and simple... I always admire the foresight (and luck) of some of those guys. Several guys I know were F-lo'd by Delta in the early 90s and chose not to return when recalled. I imagine there were about 5 years they looked over there shoulder going "what if?" Probably not the case now...
In 99 I was a brand new co-pilot in my unit. Of course back then the majority of guys were getting out when their time came. Listening to all the hiring rumors, choice of airline, and different gouges two names kept coming up that surprised me. It seems that SW and FEDEX were actually number one for about a half a dozen of the guys. Without a doubt the legacies were the clear choice for many but not all.
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Stationed in Drambui by the Barbary Coast
Decisions, Decisions.... Paulina Poriskova, Kristy Brinkley
). However, as Wasatch Phantom says, change is constant in this industry. As far as my background: Navy to CAL.
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