REAL Pilot

How does capitulation work for our profession? If you can't reach your goals, just change them to a more acceptable level and live to fight another day-that is our current "fight song."

Other than the useless personal bantering, the profession has to draw lines in the sand and do WHATEVER it takes. Otherwise, the degradation will continue.

Carpe Diem

P.S. Who is going to lead the industry higher?

satchip

Ten years from now a wide body CA will be making whatever the marketplace dictates. The strength of a labor group depends on its market position not on its militancy. Several factors have combined to erode our market value over the years. Digging in our heels and demanding more will get us more subcontractors and non union shops. Look at where the UAW is today. They are much weaker than they were and they are not restrained by the RLA.

To shore up our market position we have to erect barriers to entry to the labor market. Unfortunately we don't control entry, the FAA and the insurance industry does. So how do we do it? A concerted lobbying and public awareness campaign to require every part 121 pilot to posses an ATP would immediately erect an effective barrier to entry. No longer would the subcontractors be able to hire inexperienced minimum time pilots who are hungry for jobs and will work for sub standard wages. An older more experienced pilot would require higher compensation in exchange for his labor. Otherwise he would go into another line of work.

This is not an attack on young lower time pilots. It's a market analysis.

dojetdriver

Then I guess DAL would have to change this part of their hiring criteria;

* Minimum of 1,200 hours of total documented flight time


Back when there was an actual "pilot shortage", did the hiring of low time pilots, or even pilots that didn't have all their ratings drag this profession down?

I understand what you are saying, just don't think the answer is anywhere near as easy as you put it to solve.

Rascal

I thought that spending 60-80K a year and working as CFI for a couple years and making 20k as an FO was a barrier to entry. I mean how much more do we need? Just because the barrier to entry is harder to attain it does not translate into more pay. How long does it take to become a CAL pilot from start to finish? On average 10 years? And the sweet reward is 30K a year and no health insurance. The barrier to entry is there. European carriers will accept pilots into a A320 with 250 hrs and yet first year pay is over 100k. The funny thing is that years ago airlines were losing money and the pay was more than double of what it is today. Getting a job at major is not an easy task and most pilots will never achieve it and yet the rewards are non-existent. It is up to the pilot group to get what they deserve, somehow pilots in the USA manged to fool themselves into thinking that their pay is what directly determines if an airline makes a profit or not. SWA seems to be doing fine; and yes I know that they hedged but maybe United should have hedged as well. Management makes the decision and and they are the ones that enjoy the benefits but pilots are the ones that pay. Does a current market call for the million dollar bonuses given to the airline management on a monthly basis? Maybe pilots should take notice that no other place on this planet pays their management that much. Most of airlines around the world pay their CEO about double the salary of senior CA pay. I do know that European airlines have their problems and I am using them as an example purely from the labor perspective. The idea of pilots accepting a pay cut is something very strange to them and maybe pilots in the USA should stop bending over and handing over their hard earned cash to the guys at the top that do a very good job to lose it.

satchip

[quote=dojetdriver;445673]Then I guess DAL would have to change this part of their hiring criteria;

* Minimum of 1,200 hours of total documented flight time



/QUOTE]

Yes, absolutely! But they won't until the governing body requires it. Management dollars seek the cheapest labor. (Skills, insurance, liability, and quality all factor into "cheapest", not just price.) One law that cannot be repealed is the law of supply and demand. Where those two lines intersect is the price of a given commodity. We have nothing to do with the demand curve but we can limit the supply by raising the minimum requirement. In addition there should be tighter oversight of how one gets an ATP to prevent ATP mills from springing up to fill the new demand.

satchip

The first point is a valid one. We see the effect of this in the fewer number of military pilots joining the airlines and their delayed exit from the military. My new hire class was two thirds civilian. The interviewers and the indoc briefers said there were fewer military available applicants. More and more military pilots are staying until retirement for the exact reason you stated. 30k and no benefits and long hours and time away all conspire to make the job less attractive. Once again not a value judgement but an economic analysis. Military pilots leave the military generally older and at an already high level of compensation so to transition into an entry level civilian job takes commitment and planning.
The private/CFII/ME/COM rating route is expensive but there is no shortage of applicants. Time will tell if the decreasing levels of compensation in the marketplace will reduce those numbers. OBTW, it takes a year. ALLATP advertises from the street to airline pilot in one year.

I'll tackle your other points later. Wife says I gotta go! :-)