So........let me get this straight. Our GOVERNMENT is responsible for what happened (due to rules and regulations that the airlines HAVE to follow), and then they want to give the passengers a "bill of rights" to go after the airlines? No wonder we're in the mess we are.
Last edited by ewrbasedpilot; 01-22-2009 at 04:32 AM.
Is this a frequent happening on flights destined to the US if customs isn't staffed enough? Refuel in PDX and turned back to Mexico City?
A LOT of flights are delayed because US Customs sees no problem with stalling incoming passengers on their entry back into the USA. When we tell them (as crewmembers) we have a flight to catch, they snicker and say, "well, I guess you'll just be delayed, won't you?" This it typical government hypocrisy. They make us late, and then WE pay for it in bad press, refunds, missed connections, etc. When USA Today publishes the "most delayed flights" (along with ontime rankings) they always seem to forget that ATC is responsible for the majority of them. The airlines can't make money if the flights are sitting on the ground and can't be released, but the public THINKS it's all our fault and that we WANT to be delayed for whatever reason. Guess that's what happens when you can "spin" the story.
When USA Today publishes the "most delayed flights" (along with ontime rankings) they always seem to forget that ATC is responsible for the majority of them. The airlines can't make money if the flights are sitting on the ground and can't be released...
Delays occur for lots of reasons and it is inaccurate to lay blanket blame on ATC for most of them. At most major airports during peak periods more arrivals or departures are scheduled than the runways can physically accommodate. Visit a TRACON during an arrival push and you will see no wasted room on final, with additional aircraft holding, receiving enroute delays, or ground stopped at another airport. During periods of thunderstorm activity, ATC cannot compel pilots to fly into or near cells. Each aircraft will deviate on a path and distance the pilot feels comfortable, and each will be different. ATC cannot predict how each pilot will choose to fly in these situations so increased spacing will is used.
The US ATC system is the most efficient in the world. Constraints are not caused by controller performance. They are caused by too few runways, too few controllers, and adverse weather.
Delays occur for lots of reasons and it is inaccurate to lay blanket blame on ATC for most of them. At most major airports during peak periods more arrivals or departures are scheduled than the runways can physically accommodate. Visit a TRACON during an arrival push and you will see no wasted room on final, with additional aircraft holding, receiving enroute delays, or ground stopped at another airport. During periods of thunderstorm activity, ATC cannot compel pilots to fly into or near cells. Each aircraft will deviate on a path and distance the pilot feels comfortable, and each will be different. ATC cannot predict how each pilot will choose to fly in these situations so increased spacing will is used.
The US ATC system is the most efficient in the world. Constraints are not caused by controller performance. They are caused by too few runways, too few controllers, and adverse weather.
The Dash Rocks
DHC8 CA
Retired Controller
I MIGHT buy your argument if it were true, but for the past couple of years (since the pay and benefit cuts for controllers) we've seen the delays go through the roof..............and we've cut back our flights SIGNIFICANTLY and the delays are getting WORSE. How do you explain that? Two weeks ago we were delayed almost 4 hours in TPA waiting to return to EWR. (1000 push and left at 1230) Reason for the delay? According to our ATC Liaison, it was traffic compression and WX. ATIS reported high overcast and CALM winds in EWR. We got huffy and they finally let us leave. We saw ONE aircraft in the pattern at EWR (10 miles ahead of us) and a Q400 landed AFTER we pulled into the gate. Traffic congestion? Where? WX? Their was none. Sure it happens every now and then, but EVERY DAY? Nope, don't buy your argument for a minute. Our ATC is no longer efficient, but deficient. I think the airlines are on to ATC ............
Before anyone can legitimately blame ATC for causing delays, go spend 4 hours at a major TRACON and 4 hours in a big tower and watch the operation. I am getting pretty sick of pilots thinking that they know best when they have NO idea what is going on.
Recently, I was in the tower one evening when there was a ground delay program to MSP. A Pinnacle flight called ready to taxi; I called and got a TWELVE minute window to get them out. They reached the end of the runway with 8 minutes left in that window. They didn't have their numbers, and sat for 15 more minutes till they were ready. Since they missed their huge departure window waiting on their own dispatch, they wound up with another 10 minute flow delay. Who gets blamed for the delay? ATC. Even though they would have been on ON TIME if their own company would have done their job.
There are more air carriers that reach the end of the runway and "need a minute" than there are ready to go when they get there. Don't get ****ed when you have to wait for someone to land because you needed an extra 2 minutes sitting at the end of the runway before you were ready.
If you have not listened and observed a busy approach control facility and tower, you do not know what you're talking about any more than passengers in the back complaining about you flying your airplane from the TINY amount of the overall picture they have.
Position: Douglas Flight Test & Work Around Engineering Field Representative
Posts: 7,309
JMC:
The "need a minute" problem is circular. With fuel costing what it does, our employers direct us to wait until the last minute. If we think there might be a flow delay, we delay the start of the other engine(s). I've called 5 prior as a courtesy to coordinate. Some Controllers are receptive, some chide me for calling them prior to being ready to taxi.
As for not having the numbers, I also hate it when we push without them. I'd prefer the Captains wait rather than try to taxi, program the FMC, cross check and run 4 checklists, engine starts, change items and brief while on a 3 to 5 minute taxi.
While I agree with you all my concern lies with the rest requirement for the pilots on this flight. These pilos were on duty for well over 16hrs and flying passengers just isnt safe. When an international flight comes into the U.S. as in this case are the crews not bound by FAR's?
Similar Threads
AeroMexico flight from Mexico City -> Seattle turned back
Linear Mode
